Heartwood Spear article - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 turlough Mar 03, 2011 10:16:46	I have to admit, I am disappointed in the Heartwood Spear article. I love the art! I think this is a much better depiction of Kalak being hit then the one in Freedom. But that could be me. I like the idea of it being primal and the thought that the primal spirits represent the land fighting defiling. Again, very cool. The article, though, reminds me of the things I didn't like about DND, which is the disparity between fluff and crunch. 4E has a lot of ways to blend those two and I think they missed an opportunity here. My big complaint is this line: Without the Heartwood Spear, Kalak’s defenses would have turned aside the gladiator’s attack, and the sorcerer-king would still be ruling over Tyr and terrorizing the other city-states after completing his transformation into a dragon.
#2 angelus_obscura Mar 03, 2011 10:59:27	Keep in mind that it took the combined might of Sadira, Tithian, Agis, and Rikus to mortally wound Kalak, and even then the SK survived and the companions had to follow Kalak into his ziggurat and fight him during his metamorphosis. The Heartwood Spear isn't a be-all, end-all anti-defiler artifact. You still need to whittle away the SK's defenses with magic and psionics and physical might. Sadira and Agis blasted Kalak's defenses for that one moment for the Spear to bypass them and mortally wound Kalak. So in that regard, the artifact makes perfect sense to me.
#3 turlough Mar 03, 2011 11:19:59	This could get into nit picky details, so I apologize. IIRC, Kalak was holding his own against all of them until Rikus hit him with the heartwood Spear. That finally allowed Kalak to be hit. Further, there is some metagaming in this based on how DND works. In 2E, lower level characters could take high level ones. However, that's not the case anymore. So, if a group of low paragon level characters (that is what Agis, Rikus, Sadira, and tithian were), would not be able to defeat a low level epic level monster. So, that's why I suggested the lowered defenses on a hit. Maybe instead it should be that against any attacks from the Heartwood Spear it ignores X points of defenses or lowers them by that amount? Again, it's tough because it's converting a novel to game terms and those are very different things. In the novel, one hit by the Heartwood Spear nearly killed him. In 4E, it would be a starting point but not the end all thing. Further, imo, a solo still needs others there to help him, so it wouldn't be just the SK fighting. At least, to make it exciting, imo and from what I have seen. What I did in my own game was to create a vulnerability for each SK to something. Not mundane and it was unique. It would make it possible for any level to fight the SK, with higher levels having an easier time of it. Without that item, it wasn't possible to kill the SK. They were too powerful. Then, what I did was have the Heartwood Spear be something that works against any SK if you don't have their vulnerability. I guess what I am trying to say is that, in your description of the five ganging up on the SK, that's exactly how a solo plays now! So, what makes the SKs different from other DND villains and how do the rules back that up? If they were resistant to everything, except in the precense of their kryptonite that the players had to quest for years to find, isn't that more exciting and fitting for the end of an SK? Again, it could be my own want to have the rules AND fluff match up and this article was disappointing to me because I don't think they did. I guess what I'm wondering is if the point is to have a vulnerability
#4 Cyber-Dave Mar 03, 2011 14:39:07	Um, the spear actually has 3 properties that help bypass defenses. First of all, it makes all attacks that miss deal half damage (even if they normally would not). Second of all, if it is pleased with you it allows you to roll 2 attack rolls against any defiler (including the dragon of Tyr) and use the better result (powers or abilities that also allow you to make re-rolls allow you to re-roll both dice). That increases your accuracy quite a bit. Third of all, if it is pleased it allows you to impose a -4 penalty to the defenses and attack rolls of a character you hit until the end of an encounter (that pretty much reduces a defiler's level by 4). So, assuming Kalak was something like level 21 (and trying to cast a ritual that would fast track him to 35), with a little luck the spear could allow one low to mid paragon level character to hit Kalak, thus effectively reducing Kalak's level to about 17. A lucky group of 5 level 13-15 characters could, with the aid of the heartwood spear, potentially kill a SK. Everything seems to be pretty kosher to me... am I missing something?
#5 turlough Mar 03, 2011 15:44:14	I am probably being too picky. This is a +4 weapon. That means that it's about right for high level paragon but is behind power for the epic challenges of a SK. If inherent bonuses are being used, they are more powerful than the weapon being used to defeat the SK. The two attack rolls and take the better are the class feature of the Avenger. It's a powerful ability, to be sure, but I don't see how it adds to the spears ability to hit defilers or reduce their defenses. Again, go back to my quote. The fluff and the mechanics don't align. What if the wielder of this could ignore the defiler's traits? Or if the spear lowered one defense? What I am saying is that this is a nice +4 weapon. But, at the end of the day, that's all it is to me. There is nothing in this write up that says this was a powerful weapon used to make SKs, and powerful defilers, afraid of it being used against them. To be really picky: The double roll is nice but the Avenger gets it at first level. Further, there are arrows and other magic items that allow this. Maybe not as often but it's not that "special" of an ability. I do agree that if the class doesn't have it, it's nice. This doesn't reduce level but defenses and a penalty to hit. Again, I'm not arguing that it's good and I will give you this one does seem to be what the HS was made for. But it's the only power. Further, without seeing a character's write up, I don't see how a level 14 character could even hit tektuktitlay. He's the lowest, at 22, and has a 36 AC. The level 14 gets 7 + 4 + 4 (attribute) + 4 (misc) for a total of +19. They still need a 17 or higher to hit. Yep, two dice will help and it only has to happen once. Which is why I assume he will have all allies attack that character. Again, I'm not arguing that the HS is a really nice weapon. What I don't see is a weapon that distinguishes itself from any other +4 weapon with several abilities. A Holy Avenger would be as good or better as it allows for healing and extra damage as well as a one round boost to defenses. And it's a higher plus. I apologize if I'm being too nit picky. The article has me thinking and talking! It's done it's job! I just think it could have been better.
#6 khorne37 Mar 03, 2011 15:53:22	There has to be some semblance of balance. Why not say any defiler struck by the HS dies no save. Where is the challange where is the fun. All the HS does is knock the guy down a bit so that mid level paragon PC's might have a chance to take him out. It should still be dangerous to face a SK and hopefully a few PC's go down because if not why are these guys SK.
#7 turlough Mar 03, 2011 17:48:43	I knew I got too much into the details. I guess what I am saying is that the HS, as written, is a conglomeration of various class abilities that are good. Yes, that helps defeat the SK. Absolutely. But, here's my point. It helps defeat anyone. What about the HS is such that it helps them defeat the SKs? What is is that makes it easier with the HS versus without it? Again, perhaps I am being too picky. I'm not arguing that the HS is a cool weapon. It is. But, there is nothing in its description as a weapon that backs up the quote I used in my OP. Yes, it's good against defilers and SKs are defilers. It just seemed that for an artifact with a specific purpose in mind, it was a really nice +4 weapon that any appropriate leveled fighter type would like to have. What if it was d12 versus the SKs? It is d12s on crits but again that makes it generic for everyone. What if it didn't work against halfings or primal characters? I'm not saying I want to give the players an instant kill. It just seemed this write up wasn't exactly the HS I was expecting. I didn't go wow. That's all I'm saying.
#8 Cyber-Dave Mar 03, 2011 18:10:58	I am probably being too picky. This is a +4 weapon. That means that it's about right for high level paragon but is behind power for the epic challenges of a SK. If inherent bonuses are being used, they are more powerful than the weapon being used to defeat the SK. The two attack rolls and take the better are the class feature of the Avenger. It's a powerful ability, to be sure, but I don't see how it adds to the spears ability to hit defilers or reduce their defenses. Again, go back to my quote. The fluff and the mechanics don't align. What if the wielder of this could ignore the defiler's traits? Or if the spear lowered one defense? What I am saying is that this is a nice +4 weapon. But, at the end of the day, that's all it is to me. There is nothing in this write up that says this was a powerful weapon used to make SKs, and powerful defilers, afraid of it being used against them. To be really picky: The double roll is nice but the Avenger gets it at first level. Further, there are arrows and other magic items that allow this. Maybe not as often but it's not that "special" of an ability. I do agree that if the class doesn't have it, it's nice. This doesn't reduce level but defenses and a penalty to hit. Again, I'm not arguing that it's good and I will give you this one does seem to be what the HS was made for. But it's the only power. Further, without seeing a character's write up, I don't see how a level 14 character could even hit tektuktitlay. He's the lowest, at 22, and has a 36 AC. The level 14 gets 7 + 4 + 4 (attribute) + 4 (misc) for a total of +19. They still need a 17 or higher to hit. Yep, two dice will help and it only has to happen once. Which is why I assume he will have all allies attack that character. Again, I'm not arguing that the HS is a really nice weapon. What I don't see is a weapon that distinguishes itself from any other +4 weapon with several abilities. A Holy Avenger would be as good or better as it allows for healing and extra damage as well as a one round boost to defenses. And it's a higher plus. I apologize if I'm being too nit picky. The article has me thinking and talking! It's done it's job! I just think it could have been better. Are you kidding? Seriously!? I think you are out to lunch... First of all, the avenger is a divine class. Those don't exist in Dark Sun per the RAW. Second of all, any class feature that allows a reroll stacks with the weapons reroll property by multiply the total number of rerolls, which makes the weapon's property even more powerful. If you do allow an avenger in your game, and it uses the heartwood spear, it would gain 4 rolls (and could take the best one). That is HUGE! You don't see how that adds to the spears fluff ability to hit defilers? Really? Are you kidding? You don't see how the ability to double the number of attack rolls you make against a defiler increases your ability to hit a defiler? Let me break it down for you, it virtually multiplies the percentile chance that you will hit a defiler by two. The formula for the statistical probability that P(E or F) happens is equal to P(E) + P(F) - P (E and F). P (E and F) is equal to P(E) times P (F) when the two events are independent of each other (which they are in this situation). So, the statistical chance that one of two events with a 20% chance will occur is .2+.2-(.2 X .2) which equals .36, or 36% chance. That means that the reroll in this situation is pretty much an extra +3 to hit. An avenger would have a 79% chance of hitting via all his rerolls if he uses the spear (and only a 36% chance of hitting without the spear). That means that in the hands of an avenger that property gives the avenger the equivalent of a +8 bonus to hit. You don't see how that makes Kalak easier to hit via the heartwood spear? And, once you hit him once, the weapons other property can be used to reduce his attack bonus and all his defenses by -4 until the end of the encounter. That means that your character with a +19 bonus now hits on a 15 or higher (aka everyone in the group gains a +20% chance of hitting, or the equivalent of an extra +4 bonus to hit, and the person using the heartwood spear now hits your assumed Kalak defense with a 43% chance of hitting, or a 99% chance of hitting if he is an avenger, which is the equivalent of +4 or +5 to your attack roll, or +12 or +13 if he is an avenger). So, lets go over this again. The heartwood spear's fluff says that it makes defilers (and thus SK) easier to hit. Its mechanics do that. The heartwood spear's fluff says that it reduces a defilers defenses. Its mechanics do that too. So, where is this mismatch between the fluff and the mechanics that you are talking about? I am just not seeing it. What I am seeing is an artifact strength item that is, perhaps, hands down the most powerful item in the game when it is used against a defiler. I would choose to use this weapon even if my natural enhancement was higher than that +4 when fighting a defiler. So I will use my natural bonus to hit instead of the weapons bonus to hit. Who cares? Its properties are so damn powerful (when fighting a defiler) that I could care less... and lets not forget all those wonderful resistances that it is going to give to the person wielding the spear. In the hands of a defender, this spear can literally help a group take out a SK outside of the usual 5 level difference range. If the group is within 5 levels of the SK, this spear (in the hands of a defender) can effectively take a level + 5 difficulty fight and turn it into a what virtually amounts to a level + 1 or weaker difficulty fight. That is huge! I hope I don't come across as being rude. I really don't mean to. But, I am more than a little incredulous at your statements considering just how powerful this item is.
#9 coreyhaim8mydog Mar 03, 2011 23:08:23	It could just be me. Any thoughts? It was a literary plot device that they decided to manifest in 4E rules. It's a bit like trying to give stats for Excalibur or the One, True Ring. I hear what you are saying, but literary plot devices +5 are pretty hard to codify. My question is, what were you going to do with the stats anyway? Personally, I didn't need to know them. Rikus killed Kalak with a magic spear. Kalak's fall makes Tyr a free city. Beyond that, the heartwood spear and Kalak don't much matter in my game. I'm curious how you were going to use it though. Personally, I like Pisonatrix (sp?) better as a game artifact.
#10 turlough Mar 04, 2011 7:29:30	Wow. Well, I've been told. I am corrected. I have a much better understanding of the HS as well as the stats of it. I personally wasn't going to use the HS in my campaigns, at least the one I was running. (Unfortunately, not playing Dark Sun at the moment.) I guess I was expecting the HS to do a lot of the work for the group. In the novel, again iirc, Kalak is holding them all off until he gets hit by the HS and even as his transformation happens, I think he still has that wound. I took it to mean that it was the transformation that healed him of it. Maybe I was just thinking of an ongoing damage wound that won't end without some sort of help. Help he can't get if he's being attacked. I don't know. This thread started as my initial reaction to the article, which as I said didn't make me say Wow about it. I know 4E is a different game than 2E and I like what it has done. For some reason, on my first reading of it, it just didn't seem to be any better than any other +4 weapon. The artifact side of it is better, as I have been told. Maybe that would work as a template for any type of SK killing weapon. Hmmm..
#11 Alphastream Mar 08, 2011 22:15:08	I had your initial reaction as well turlough. Once you factor in the weapon being pleased with you it is pretty strong. Bound by rules? Sure. Still pretty strong. There is always some difficulty in placing rules to story. How can you break down the event that took place and just make it a cold mechanical thing? All of that strain Rikus went through... he just rolled high? I always take these kinds of articles more as a sketch that illustrates how you can accomplish a goal. If, in your campaign, you wanted to recreate something like this (it doesn't have to be an SK... any powerful foe will suffice), this is a decent template for a weapon that could help PCs do the job.
#12 Acrilos Mar 09, 2011 6:14:17	I must admit that this weapon is really awesome. Just what I was looking for my campaign. My players will soon face a sorcerer-king (probably when they hit epic level) and I will have to design a side quest where they find this weapon (they will most probably acquire it when passing through the forested isle of Shault in the Sea of Silt seeking a relic of the Green Age)...for the group's seeker it will be huge ! But let's not forget that sorcercer-kings are not usually alone and they are surrounded by high ranked templars and elite guards (most of them half-giants (goliaths)); So, the party might have a mighty weapon in their hands, they will have to clear their path to the sorcercer-king and probably battle him (or her) at the same time as some guards and templars. A more cunningly approach will be required if the party doesn't want to be surrounded. And even then, sorcerer-kings have propbably placed many magical wards and rituals around their palaces to inform them when intruders are present.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

turlough

Mar 03, 2011 10:16:46

I have to admit, I am disappointed in the Heartwood Spear article.

I love the art! I think this is a much better depiction of Kalak being hit then the one in Freedom. But that could be me.

I like the idea of it being primal and the thought that the primal spirits represent the land fighting defiling. Again, very cool.

The article, though, reminds me of the things I didn't like about DND, which is the disparity between fluff and crunch. 4E has a lot of ways to blend those two and I think they missed an opportunity here.

My big complaint is this line:

Without the Heartwood Spear, Kalak’s defenses would have turned aside the gladiator’s attack, and the sorcerer-king would still be ruling over Tyr and terrorizing the other city-states after completing his transformation into a dragon.

angelus_obscura

Mar 03, 2011 10:59:27

Keep in mind that it took the combined might of Sadira, Tithian, Agis, and Rikus to mortally wound Kalak, and even then the SK survived and the companions had to follow Kalak into his ziggurat and fight him during his metamorphosis.

The Heartwood Spear isn't a be-all, end-all anti-defiler artifact. You still need to whittle away the SK's defenses with magic and psionics and physical might. Sadira and Agis blasted Kalak's defenses for that one moment for the Spear to bypass them and mortally wound Kalak.

So in that regard, the artifact makes perfect sense to me.

turlough

Mar 03, 2011 11:19:59

This could get into nit picky details, so I apologize.

IIRC, Kalak was holding his own against all of them until Rikus hit him with the heartwood Spear. That finally allowed Kalak to be hit. Further, there is some metagaming in this based on how DND works. In 2E, lower level characters could take high level ones. However, that's not the case anymore. So, if a group of low paragon level characters (that is what Agis, Rikus, Sadira, and tithian were), would not be able to defeat a low level epic level monster. So, that's why I suggested the lowered defenses on a hit.

Maybe instead it should be that against any attacks from the Heartwood Spear it ignores X points of defenses or lowers them by that amount?

Again, it's tough because it's converting a novel to game terms and those are very different things. In the novel, one hit by the Heartwood Spear nearly killed him. In 4E, it would be a starting point but not the end all thing. Further, imo, a solo still needs others there to help him, so it wouldn't be just the SK fighting. At least, to make it exciting, imo and from what I have seen.

What I did in my own game was to create a vulnerability for each SK to something. Not mundane and it was unique. It would make it possible for any level to fight the SK, with higher levels having an easier time of it. Without that item, it wasn't possible to kill the SK. They were too powerful. Then, what I did was have the Heartwood Spear be something that works against any SK if you don't have their vulnerability.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, in your description of the five ganging up on the SK, that's exactly how a solo plays now! So, what makes the SKs different from other DND villains and how do the rules back that up? If they were resistant to everything, except in the precense of their kryptonite that the players had to quest for years to find, isn't that more exciting and fitting for the end of an SK?

Again, it could be my own want to have the rules AND fluff match up and this article was disappointing to me because I don't think they did.
I guess what I'm wondering is if the point is to have a vulnerability

Cyber-Dave

Mar 03, 2011 14:39:07

Um, the spear actually has 3 properties that help bypass defenses. First of all, it makes all attacks that miss deal half damage (even if they normally would not). Second of all, if it is pleased with you it allows you to roll 2 attack rolls against any defiler (including the dragon of Tyr) and use the better result (powers or abilities that also allow you to make re-rolls allow you to re-roll both dice). That increases your accuracy quite a bit. Third of all, if it is pleased it allows you to impose a -4 penalty to the defenses and attack rolls of a character you hit until the end of an encounter (that pretty much reduces a defiler's level by 4). So, assuming Kalak was something like level 21 (and trying to cast a ritual that would fast track him to 35), with a little luck the spear could allow one low to mid paragon level character to hit Kalak, thus effectively reducing Kalak's level to about 17. A lucky group of 5 level 13-15 characters could, with the aid of the heartwood spear, potentially kill a SK. Everything seems to be pretty kosher to me... am I missing something?

turlough

Mar 03, 2011 15:44:14

I am probably being too picky.

This is a +4 weapon. That means that it's about right for high level paragon but is behind power for the epic challenges of a SK. If inherent bonuses are being used, they are more powerful than the weapon being used to defeat the SK.

The two attack rolls and take the better are the class feature of the Avenger. It's a powerful ability, to be sure, but I don't see how it adds to the spears ability to hit defilers or reduce their defenses. Again, go back to my quote. The fluff and the mechanics don't align.

What if the wielder of this could ignore the defiler's traits?

Or if the spear lowered one defense?

What I am saying is that this is a nice +4 weapon. But, at the end of the day, that's all it is to me. There is nothing in this write up that says this was a powerful weapon used to make SKs, and powerful defilers, afraid of it being used against them.

To be really picky:
The double roll is nice but the Avenger gets it at first level. Further, there are arrows and other magic items that allow this. Maybe not as often but it's not that "special" of an ability. I do agree that if the class doesn't have it, it's nice.

This doesn't reduce level but defenses and a penalty to hit. Again, I'm not arguing that it's good and I will give you this one does seem to be what the HS was made for. But it's the only power. Further, without seeing a character's write up, I don't see how a level 14 character could even hit tektuktitlay. He's the lowest, at 22, and has a 36 AC. The level 14 gets 7 + 4 + 4 (attribute) + 4 (misc) for a total of +19. They still need a 17 or higher to hit. Yep, two dice will help and it only has to happen once. Which is why I assume he will have all allies attack that character.

Again, I'm not arguing that the HS is a really nice weapon. What I don't see is a weapon that distinguishes itself from any other +4 weapon with several abilities. A Holy Avenger would be as good or better as it allows for healing and extra damage as well as a one round boost to defenses. And it's a higher plus.

I apologize if I'm being too nit picky. The article has me thinking and talking! It's done it's job! I just think it could have been better.

khorne37

Mar 03, 2011 15:53:22

There has to be some semblance of balance. Why not say any defiler struck by the HS dies no save. Where is the challange where is the fun. All the HS does is knock the guy down a bit so that mid level paragon PC's might have a chance to take him out. It should still be dangerous to face a SK and hopefully a few PC's go down because if not why are these guys SK.

turlough

Mar 03, 2011 17:48:43

I knew I got too much into the details.

I guess what I am saying is that the HS, as written, is a conglomeration of various class abilities that are good. Yes, that helps defeat the SK. Absolutely.

But, here's my point.

It helps defeat anyone.

What about the HS is such that it helps them defeat the SKs? What is is that makes it easier with the HS versus without it?

Again, perhaps I am being too picky. I'm not arguing that the HS is a cool weapon. It is.

But, there is nothing in its description as a weapon that backs up the quote I used in my OP. Yes, it's good against defilers and SKs are defilers. It just seemed that for an artifact with a specific purpose in mind, it was a really nice +4 weapon that any appropriate leveled fighter type would like to have.

What if it was d12 versus the SKs? It is d12s on crits but again that makes it generic for everyone.

What if it didn't work against halfings or primal characters?

I'm not saying I want to give the players an instant kill. It just seemed this write up wasn't exactly the HS I was expecting. I didn't go wow.

That's all I'm saying.

Cyber-Dave

Mar 03, 2011 18:10:58

I am probably being too picky.

This is a +4 weapon. That means that it's about right for high level paragon but is behind power for the epic challenges of a SK. If inherent bonuses are being used, they are more powerful than the weapon being used to defeat the SK.

The two attack rolls and take the better are the class feature of the Avenger. It's a powerful ability, to be sure, but I don't see how it adds to the spears ability to hit defilers or reduce their defenses. Again, go back to my quote. The fluff and the mechanics don't align.

What if the wielder of this could ignore the defiler's traits?

Or if the spear lowered one defense?

What I am saying is that this is a nice +4 weapon. But, at the end of the day, that's all it is to me. There is nothing in this write up that says this was a powerful weapon used to make SKs, and powerful defilers, afraid of it being used against them.

To be really picky:
The double roll is nice but the Avenger gets it at first level. Further, there are arrows and other magic items that allow this. Maybe not as often but it's not that "special" of an ability. I do agree that if the class doesn't have it, it's nice.

This doesn't reduce level but defenses and a penalty to hit. Again, I'm not arguing that it's good and I will give you this one does seem to be what the HS was made for. But it's the only power. Further, without seeing a character's write up, I don't see how a level 14 character could even hit tektuktitlay. He's the lowest, at 22, and has a 36 AC. The level 14 gets 7 + 4 + 4 (attribute) + 4 (misc) for a total of +19. They still need a 17 or higher to hit. Yep, two dice will help and it only has to happen once. Which is why I assume he will have all allies attack that character.

Again, I'm not arguing that the HS is a really nice weapon. What I don't see is a weapon that distinguishes itself from any other +4 weapon with several abilities. A Holy Avenger would be as good or better as it allows for healing and extra damage as well as a one round boost to defenses. And it's a higher plus.

I apologize if I'm being too nit picky. The article has me thinking and talking! It's done it's job! I just think it could have been better.

Are you kidding? Seriously!? I think you are out to lunch...

First of all, the avenger is a divine class. Those don't exist in Dark Sun per the RAW. Second of all, any class feature that allows a reroll stacks with the weapons reroll property by multiply the total number of rerolls, which makes the weapon's property even more powerful. If you do allow an avenger in your game, and it uses the heartwood spear, it would gain 4 rolls (and could take the best one). That is HUGE!

You don't see how that adds to the spears fluff ability to hit defilers? Really? Are you kidding? You don't see how the ability to double the number of attack rolls you make against a defiler increases your ability to hit a defiler? Let me break it down for you, it virtually multiplies the percentile chance that you will hit a defiler by two. The formula for the statistical probability that P(E or F) happens is equal to P(E) + P(F) - P (E and F). P (E and F) is equal to P(E) times P (F) when the two events are independent of each other (which they are in this situation). So, the statistical chance that one of two events with a 20% chance will occur is .2+.2-(.2 X .2) which equals .36, or 36% chance. That means that the reroll in this situation is pretty much an extra +3 to hit. An avenger would have a 79% chance of hitting via all his rerolls if he uses the spear (and only a 36% chance of hitting without the spear). That means that in the hands of an avenger that property gives the avenger the equivalent of a +8 bonus to hit. You don't see how that makes Kalak easier to hit via the heartwood spear? And, once you hit him once, the weapons other property can be used to reduce his attack bonus and all his defenses by -4 until the end of the encounter. That means that your character with a +19 bonus now hits on a 15 or higher (aka everyone in the group gains a +20% chance of hitting, or the equivalent of an extra +4 bonus to hit, and the person using the heartwood spear now hits your assumed Kalak defense with a 43% chance of hitting, or a 99% chance of hitting if he is an avenger, which is the equivalent of +4 or +5 to your attack roll, or +12 or +13 if he is an avenger).

So, lets go over this again. The heartwood spear's fluff says that it makes defilers (and thus SK) easier to hit. Its mechanics do that. The heartwood spear's fluff says that it reduces a defilers defenses. Its mechanics do that too. So, where is this mismatch between the fluff and the mechanics that you are talking about? I am just not seeing it. What I am seeing is an artifact strength item that is, perhaps, hands down the most powerful item in the game when it is used against a defiler. I would choose to use this weapon even if my natural enhancement was higher than that +4 when fighting a defiler. So I will use my natural bonus to hit instead of the weapons bonus to hit. Who cares? Its properties are so damn powerful (when fighting a defiler) that I could care less... and lets not forget all those wonderful resistances that it is going to give to the person wielding the spear. In the hands of a defender, this spear can literally help a group take out a SK outside of the usual 5 level difference range. If the group is within 5 levels of the SK, this spear (in the hands of a defender) can effectively take a level + 5 difficulty fight and turn it into a what virtually amounts to a level + 1 or weaker difficulty fight. That is huge!

I hope I don't come across as being rude. I really don't mean to. But, I am more than a little incredulous at your statements considering just how powerful this item is.

coreyhaim8mydog

Mar 03, 2011 23:08:23

It could just be me.

Any thoughts?

It was a literary plot device that they decided to manifest in 4E rules. It's a bit like trying to give stats for Excalibur or the One, True Ring.

I hear what you are saying, but literary plot devices +5 are pretty hard to codify. My question is, what were you going to do with the stats anyway?

Personally, I didn't need to know them. Rikus killed Kalak with a magic spear. Kalak's fall makes Tyr a free city. Beyond that, the heartwood spear and Kalak don't much matter in my game.

I'm curious how you were going to use it though.

Personally, I like Pisonatrix (sp?) better as a game artifact.

#10

turlough

Mar 04, 2011 7:29:30

Wow. Well, I've been told.

I am corrected. I have a much better understanding of the HS as well as the stats of it.

I personally wasn't going to use the HS in my campaigns, at least the one I was running. (Unfortunately, not playing Dark Sun at the moment.)

I guess I was expecting the HS to do a lot of the work for the group. In the novel, again iirc, Kalak is holding them all off until he gets hit by the HS and even as his transformation happens, I think he still has that wound. I took it to mean that it was the transformation that healed him of it. Maybe I was just thinking of an ongoing damage wound that won't end without some sort of help. Help he can't get if he's being attacked. I don't know.

This thread started as my initial reaction to the article, which as I said didn't make me say Wow about it. I know 4E is a different game than 2E and I like what it has done. For some reason, on my first reading of it, it just didn't seem to be any better than any other +4 weapon. The artifact side of it is better, as I have been told. Maybe that would work as a template for any type of SK killing weapon. Hmmm..

#11

Alphastream

Mar 08, 2011 22:15:08

I had your initial reaction as well turlough. Once you factor in the weapon being pleased with you it is pretty strong. Bound by rules? Sure. Still pretty strong.

There is always some difficulty in placing rules to story. How can you break down the event that took place and just make it a cold mechanical thing? All of that strain Rikus went through... he just rolled high?

I always take these kinds of articles more as a sketch that illustrates how you can accomplish a goal. If, in your campaign, you wanted to recreate something like this (it doesn't have to be an SK... any powerful foe will suffice), this is a decent template for a weapon that could help PCs do the job.

#12

Acrilos

Mar 09, 2011 6:14:17

I must admit that this weapon is really awesome. Just what I was looking for my campaign.
My players will soon face a sorcerer-king (probably when they hit epic level) and I will have to design a side quest where they find this weapon (they will most probably acquire it when passing through the forested isle of Shault in the Sea of Silt seeking a relic of the Green Age)...for the group's seeker it will be huge !

But let's not forget that sorcercer-kings are not usually alone and they are surrounded by high ranked templars and elite guards (most of them half-giants (goliaths)); So, the party might have a mighty weapon in their hands, they will have to clear their path to the sorcercer-king and probably battle him (or her) at the same time as some guards and templars. A more cunningly approach will be required if the party doesn't want to be surrounded. And even then, sorcerer-kings have propbably placed many magical wards and rituals around their palaces to inform them when intruders are present.