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Hidden Knowledge

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Keenath
Aug 13, 2010 12:25:31 Okay, this is just ridiculous.

In the excerpt from the Darksun Creature Catalog for Lalali-puy, the sorcerer-queen of Gulg, it has this to say:

Lore
History or Religion DC 33: Called the Oba, or Forest Goddess, Lalali-Puy is the supreme ruler of
Gulg. Citizens revere her as the source of Gulgan prosperity. She is the bringer of rain and their protector against threats from the physical and spirit worlds. Lalali-Puy owns everything in Gulg, including property, beasts, and food. She sees to its even distribution among the dagadas, or communities.
Note: Citizens of Gulg gain a +10 bonus to this check.

Okay, fine and all I suppose, but -- ARE YOU INSANE?!

You're telling me that for citizens of Gulg, it's effectively a DC 23 knowledge check to know who is in charge of their own city? Better yet, the citizens "revere" her, but only the sages know that the population reveres her, and that she is "the bringer of rain" and protector of the city?

This is lazy, lazy writing! You just slapped the level-appropriate knowledge value on there! That should be a DC 10 check with a +10 for citizens -- things EVERY local should know and outsiders have probably heard!

A DC 33 falls into the range difficulties that, according to the PHB, cover "the kind of specialized information that only an expert in the field would know" or "esoteric knowledge that only masters of the field would know". That sounds more like the information shared in the Encounters section, revealing that Lala almost never leaves home and is on the bad side of all the primal spirits because she enslaves them.

And I wouldn't really complain except that I've seen this a lot lately. Knowledge checks are supposed to be scaled based on what people would know about this creature, and big politically important creatures need to have an appropriately low DCs for obvious information!
#2
ian.thomson
Aug 13, 2010 13:06:57
I could see management of the city operating like a pyramid scheme, where you really only answer to your family, they answer to the elders and a shaman who you hear of but never see, and don't know that they answer to the templars, who answers to the Oba. IIRC, 2e DS did say that the dagadas had a degree of independance and self-sufficiency. However, it does say they're taught to revere the queen, but as the goddess of the forest.
#3
commissar
Aug 13, 2010 14:54:48 I guess it's like trying to get an informative answer out of an extra in a Tarzan movie or something.

PC: "Hey, Wicket. Who runs this treehouse?"

Gulgite: "We follow Oba, the forest goddess."

PC: "She's a goddess, eh?"

Gulgite: "Yes. All must worship her."

PC: "Well, who runs the city?"

Gulgite: ...

PC: "You know, the day to day operations? Who's in charge?"

Gulgite: "We follow Oba."

PC: "Right. But I need to supply an expedition. I've got wampum but I don't want to tresspass any tribal lands, savvy?"

Gulgite: ...

PC: "So what I am asking you is who do I talk to in order to make sure that we don't anger your forest goddess."

Gulgite: "We follow Oba."

PC: !!!

What I'm getting at is maybe the Oba isn't real big on public education? Otherwise, I have no clue how that's supposed to work. Though I will point out that even in 21st century America in the Information Age there are still people who seem comically uninformed. It's probably way worse when you're a hunter who is the member of a hunting family that is part of a hunting tribe and you have to think about hunting all day and there's no TV or radio.

So you can identify 2,500 different insect sounds in the jungle, and close your eyes and tell exactly how many branches were just in your visual field, and can smell a Kirre from 50 meters and when you're in your element you're basically a Jungle Ninja... but you have no idea if Gulg has a postal system or who makes decisions about zoning because you can't read and write, nobody of a higher station than you ever talks to you or allows you to talk to them, and no one ever asks you your opinion on the state of civic affairs. You (the Gulgite hunter) are a supremely specialized individual who is frighteningly competent at your narrow set of skills (and if you were any less good at them you'd be dead by now) and astonishingly incompetent at virtually everything else.

That's my shot at it, anyway.
#4
ian.thomson
Aug 13, 2010 16:26:32 It's a bit extreme, but that's quite possible. It wouldn't be unusual, few people actually see Nibenay, and the population will go through phases where they start to wonder (out loud!) if he's died or something (although eventually someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive).

People know Hamanu and Tectuktitlay are real, since they like to start the day like professional wrestlers, stepping out into the crowd's sight and shouting "Do you smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?!" BUT that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna be out for attention.
#5
bruul
Aug 13, 2010 17:57:34
It's a bit extreme, but that's quite possible. It wouldn't be unusual, few people actually see Nibenay, and the population will go through phases where they start to wonder (out loud!) if he's died or something (although eventually someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive).

People know Hamanu and Tectuktitlay are real, since they like to start the day like professional wrestlers, stepping out into the crowd's sight and shouting "Do you smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?!" BUT that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna be out for attention.

That was an awesome and excellent analogy. "smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?" "someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive" Hilarious.
#6
ian.thomson
Aug 13, 2010 18:06:52
That was an awesome and excellent analogy. "smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?" "someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive" Hilarious.

My group is going to be starting in Urik, and one of my players already knows I'm going to describe Hamanu as "the Rock, but with a Babylonian beard." I don't know what the DC will be for knowledge checks about Hamanu, but if they're similar to Lalai-Puy's, I'll explain it as "most of the people who care are too busy cheering to see through the Kayfabe."
#7
Bly2729
Aug 14, 2010 13:56:15 The Lion King runs his city like a guy playing Civilization or a wargame and knows all you need to win is a military (and someone is going win). He's the kind of guy who orders the immediate death of five person groups carrying glowing staffs who enter the city.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Keenath Aug 13, 2010 12:25:31	Okay, this is just ridiculous. In the excerpt from the Darksun Creature Catalog for Lalali-puy, the sorcerer-queen of Gulg, it has this to say: Lore History or Religion DC 33: Called the Oba, or Forest Goddess, Lalali-Puy is the supreme ruler of Gulg. Citizens revere her as the source of Gulgan prosperity. She is the bringer of rain and their protector against threats from the physical and spirit worlds. Lalali-Puy owns everything in Gulg, including property, beasts, and food. She sees to its even distribution among the dagadas, or communities. Note: Citizens of Gulg gain a +10 bonus to this check. Okay, fine and all I suppose, but -- ARE YOU INSANE?! You're telling me that for citizens of Gulg, it's effectively a DC 23 knowledge check to know who is in charge of their own city? Better yet, the citizens "revere" her, but only the sages know that the population reveres her, and that she is "the bringer of rain" and protector of the city? This is lazy, lazy writing! You just slapped the level-appropriate knowledge value on there! That should be a DC 10 check with a +10 for citizens -- things EVERY local should know and outsiders have probably heard! A DC 33 falls into the range difficulties that, according to the PHB, cover "the kind of specialized information that only an expert in the field would know" or "esoteric knowledge that only masters of the field would know". That sounds more like the information shared in the Encounters section, revealing that Lala almost never leaves home and is on the bad side of all the primal spirits because she enslaves them. And I wouldn't really complain except that I've seen this a lot lately. Knowledge checks are supposed to be scaled based on what people would know about this creature, and big politically important creatures need to have an appropriately low DCs for obvious information!
#2 ian.thomson Aug 13, 2010 13:06:57	I could see management of the city operating like a pyramid scheme, where you really only answer to your family, they answer to the elders and a shaman who you hear of but never see, and don't know that they answer to the templars, who answers to the Oba. IIRC, 2e DS did say that the dagadas had a degree of independance and self-sufficiency. However, it does say they're taught to revere the queen, but as the goddess of the forest.
#3 commissar Aug 13, 2010 14:54:48	I guess it's like trying to get an informative answer out of an extra in a Tarzan movie or something. PC: "Hey, Wicket. Who runs this treehouse?" Gulgite: "We follow Oba, the forest goddess." PC: "She's a goddess, eh?" Gulgite: "Yes. All must worship her." PC: "Well, who runs the city?" Gulgite: ... PC: "You know, the day to day operations? Who's in charge?" Gulgite: "We follow Oba." PC: "Right. But I need to supply an expedition. I've got wampum but I don't want to tresspass any tribal lands, savvy?" Gulgite: ... PC: "So what I am asking you is who do I talk to in order to make sure that we don't anger your forest goddess." Gulgite: "We follow Oba." PC: !!! What I'm getting at is maybe the Oba isn't real big on public education? Otherwise, I have no clue how that's supposed to work. Though I will point out that even in 21st century America in the Information Age there are still people who seem comically uninformed. It's probably way worse when you're a hunter who is the member of a hunting family that is part of a hunting tribe and you have to think about hunting all day and there's no TV or radio. So you can identify 2,500 different insect sounds in the jungle, and close your eyes and tell exactly how many branches were just in your visual field, and can smell a Kirre from 50 meters and when you're in your element you're basically a Jungle Ninja... but you have no idea if Gulg has a postal system or who makes decisions about zoning because you can't read and write, nobody of a higher station than you ever talks to you or allows you to talk to them, and no one ever asks you your opinion on the state of civic affairs. You (the Gulgite hunter) are a supremely specialized individual who is frighteningly competent at your narrow set of skills (and if you were any less good at them you'd be dead by now) and astonishingly incompetent at virtually everything else. That's my shot at it, anyway.
#4 ian.thomson Aug 13, 2010 16:26:32	It's a bit extreme, but that's quite possible. It wouldn't be unusual, few people actually see Nibenay, and the population will go through phases where they start to wonder (out loud!) if he's died or something (although eventually someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive). People know Hamanu and Tectuktitlay are real, since they like to start the day like professional wrestlers, stepping out into the crowd's sight and shouting "Do you smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?!" BUT that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna be out for attention.
#5 bruul Aug 13, 2010 17:57:34	It's a bit extreme, but that's quite possible. It wouldn't be unusual, few people actually see Nibenay, and the population will go through phases where they start to wonder (out loud!) if he's died or something (although eventually someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive). People know Hamanu and Tectuktitlay are real, since they like to start the day like professional wrestlers, stepping out into the crowd's sight and shouting "Do you smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?!" BUT that doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna be out for attention. That was an awesome and excellent analogy. "smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?" "someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive" Hilarious.
#6 ian.thomson Aug 13, 2010 18:06:52	That was an awesome and excellent analogy. "smell what the Lion of Urik is cooking?" "someone head 'splodeys in mid-sentence about revolution, and people go about their day knowing that, nope, he's still alive" Hilarious. My group is going to be starting in Urik, and one of my players already knows I'm going to describe Hamanu as "the Rock, but with a Babylonian beard." I don't know what the DC will be for knowledge checks about Hamanu, but if they're similar to Lalai-Puy's, I'll explain it as "most of the people who care are too busy cheering to see through the Kayfabe."
#7 Bly2729 Aug 14, 2010 13:56:15	The Lion King runs his city like a guy playing Civilization or a wargame and knows all you need to win is a military (and someone is going win). He's the kind of guy who orders the immediate death of five person groups carrying glowing staffs who enter the city.