Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. You take no penalties to attack for squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. While squeezing you have a speed of 4 (actually, 3/4th your regular speed rounded down, but I am writing this entry for a race with a speed of 6).
I would then make the Half-Giant look something like this:
Half-Giant (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’8”-9’9”
Average Weight: 580-740 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance
Mercurial Personality: You have a +1 racial bonus to Will.
Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. For the purpose of squeezing you are considered to be a large sized creature. However, you take no penalties to attack from squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. Additionally, while squeezing you have a speed of 4. For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are also considered to be a large creature. You must expend two survival days to gain the same benefits that other medium sized character’s gain from a single survival day.
Giant’s Endurance: You gain the Giant’s Endurance racial encounter power (this power is identical to the Goliath's racial encounter power).
Does something like this look balanced? Basically, powerful athlete is given up for massive.
The 2 by 2 space kind of helps to keep the huge size in mind when you fight, without giving too many benefits.
I see you took out the athletics reroll and put in massive in its place. I still don't think the race would be overpowered with both. Just look at dwarves...
I'm not sure I would use it, but it does achieve its goal (portraying half giants as bigger than medium creatures without exacerbating the issue that they're not Large creatures) and it doesn't strike me as inherently imbalanced.
My biggest worry would still be how having a 2x2 party member in a game that is built on the premise that you never have a 2x2 party member will interact with the group's strategies, but that's not something that should stop anyone from trying it. If it doesn't work, you'll only know after you play it.
I agree that the writeup misses some power tho; the 2x2 fighting space isn't a nearly big enough benefit (personally I think it's more of a disadvantage in actual play), so maybe there's design room for improving the Goliath racial power or to replace it with something a little stronger.
Try to give it a new, stronger encounter power; in fact, I think the most striking characteristic of 2nd edition half giants is often ignored in these writeups, and that was the MASSIVE hp advantage they had.
Fighting Space?
Wha?
Is he medium or large?
Fighting Space?
Wha?
He is medium. He has a racial quality called massive. That racial quality follows the format of the 4e rules and makes itself an exception to the usual rules for medium creatures. Unlike other medium creatures, a massive creature has a 2 by 2 square fighting space. Unlike usual creatures with a 2 by 2 square fighting space, a massive creature can squeeze (into a 1 square fighting space) without taking a penalty to attack, or granting combat advantage. Also, when squeezing, instead of moving at half speed this massive creature would move at 4 squares of speed.
Why not instead having them take up a 2x2 area have them take up a 1x2 line? It will show that they have a wider stance then medium races but they would not be as large as, you know large creatures.
Miniatures?
Cyber-Dave: I like this version, i'll probably try it out in my coming home-game
EDIT: maybe when squeezing they gain a bonus to a defense or minor THP gain (2/4/6)?
for a ranged character there is absolutely no gain, its a lose-lose situation, being large or having speed 4
When a half-giant squeezes, in my mind at least, it looks as if he's going for a defensive stance:
Lowering its speed, lowering its head, closing its elbows, so less creatures gank on him. But this "Stance" makes him a little harder to hit, less places to land the hurt
Temporary Hit Points = THP
for a ranged character there is absolutely no gain, its a lose-lose situation, being large or having speed 4
When a half-giant squeezes, in my mind at least, it looks as if he's going for a defensive stance:
Lowering its speed, lowering its head, closing its elbows, so less creatures gank on him. But this "Stance" makes him a little harder to hit, less places to land the hurt
Oh, I don't know about that. Ranged characters gain a benefit from being large as well. First of all, they can act as a shield for other ranged characters. When they really need to protect themselves against the damage they are taking as such a shield they can activate their racial encounter power. They also increase the number of squares that any of their close burst powers effect. Will this benefit all styles of play? No. But I am not looking to do that. I am totally ok with pegging Half-Giants into a specific style of play. They were designed to protect the SK. Protecting their party (be it as a defender, or a ranged character who stands in front of his allies in order to grant them cover) is what being a half-giant should be all about.
At least its logical about the whole stance thing
EDIT: maybe when squeezing they gain a bonus to a defense or minor THP gain (2/4/6)?
Playing off the temporary hit points line and the original implementation that half-giants were loaded with HP, what about this? It's roughly equivalent to the current power (assuming the player would activate it when he was anticipating multiple attacks) but easier to manage and more directly suggests incredibly resilience.
Half-Giant Endurance
You embrace your giant heritage as battle approaches.
Encounter 
No Action
Trigger: You roll initiative
Effect: You gain 15 temporary hit points.
Level 11: You gain 30 temporary hit points.
Level 21: You gain 45 temporary hit points.
I'd handle it so that you can go into a narrow corridor just fine, but you cannot squeeze yourself into one square on an open field.
This way, in combat it is easier to handle by consistently using a large figure (or token). You just allow the figure to overlap blocking terrain (squeeze) as long as at least one square of open terrain is used, but don't allow overlapping of other figures.
Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. For the purpose of squeezing you are considered to be a large sized creature. However, you take no penalties to attack from squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. Additionally, while squeezing you have a speed of 4. For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are also considered to be a large creature. You must expend two survival days to gain the same benefits that other medium sized character’s gain from a single survival day.
Since I am allowing massive creatures to count as large for the purpose of grabs and bull rush, I am also bringing back some old dark sun flavor in the form of forcing half-giants to imbue more 'survival days' per day than other characters.
Maybe
Gain +2 / +4 / +6 HP at each Tier (not cummulative) since Half-giants gained double Hit Die.
Or
Reach +1, The half Giant uses it's incredible size to make a melee attack with +1 Reach, the character makes this attack roll at a -2 penalty to attack and Damage rolls.
I think this is one of the areas in which I really hate 4e. A game system should not be designed so that it can not accommodate character races of different sizes. I love the system overall, but the claim that a 2 square by 2 square fighting base is inherently overpowered just seems ridiculous to me. Yet, despite the fact that odd numbers of people can flank this fighting base, that 12 people can target it in melee instead of 8, and that people can target any single square of the fighting base in order to effectively target the entire creature, the folks in the homebrew forum seem to believe it is horribly overpowered. If they are right, there is something very wrong with the mechanics of 4e and size. If they are wrong, I am very frustrated as to how the 4e fanbase is terrified of something steping slightly outside of their comfort zone.
This reminds me of how people from the Saga forums used to say that a large sized character was horribly overpowered. Until the designers released large sized characters. And then the popular wisdom of the Saga forums admited that large sized characters were actually at something of a disadvantage...
The Massive ability does indeed have its greater and worse features. All of them are dependent on DM allowences. For instance, one could actually keep their speed at 6 even when squeezing with this, as long as there is room to be 2 by 2 on either side of the walk. This isn't actually overpowered, and encourages tactical thought for movement. I would note, however, that you should not let them go above 4 while squeezing, as clever positioning and a reasonable amount of space can do that.
i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff194/teamfi...
zoom in to read the rest of my comments on the ability, and an example of possible movement abuse, and a suggestion on clarification.
Still, I am so disheartened over the feedback I have received in the house rules forum, there is a chance I might just end up using the Goliath RAW. I put it to a vote with my group. I will let my players vote as to what they would prefer.
You know, I love 4e... a lot. But sometimes, the 4e design philosophies upheld by its fans in the house rules forum (because I don't know that I would agree that this is the philosophy upheld by the books themselves) really bother me.
If I was looking ot house rule half giants I would go with the 2x2 size, it really is a pretty big disadvantage being open to getting attacked from so many sides at once.
Edit: Another problem i noticed was that they found it hard to manuver round the tough guys in the encounter. Two of them on there own can make it impossible for a melee half giant to reach teh back row, not because of oppornunity attacks, but because they can just leave single square gaps between them. It's horrible. You can't shift, you provoke OAs for trying to squeeze through, and just about everything you can do gets you killed. So the toughs out front are absorbing your blows while no one is pinning down the ranged attackers. It got nasty. However, the one major benefit for the 4 squares was close bursts. Had one all around attack. Although the positioning was harder, because it was more difficult to manuver round the enemies to maximise the no. of targets, when they started to flank.... well one of the bursts took out all of the minions. And that was the end of the flank...
I think that them combined with close bursts really is over powered. I don't know what you could do to fix it (maybe you squeeze as part of a close burst, so that you have a close burst one, rather than a burst of 12 squares with a 4 hole in the middle? I don't know. If you can fix that, then its totally balanced. Otherwise...... it needs work (sorry for the two parts of this post seeming contradictory, we played it late last night and I'm still a bit blurry).
yeah, and I think that it is balanced (as I commented, you do provoke opportunity attacks, and can do so from more people, and give more chances for flanking. In exchange you can block three squares more than normal (which TBH, isn't that much for the opportunities the enemy get) and get to target from 3 more squares, which actually doesn't change much. I would suggest that it is perfectly balanced (now that I've had time to give it a quick test in a normal encounter with 3 extra minions, which is normalish). In the test the Half Giant was possibly WEAKER than another defender because the minions were setting up flanks so well that you could easily say that he had 2 less in every defense. Also, something of note from the playtest: the half giant makes a sorcerors job hell. If the enemies stick around him, its almost impossible not to hit him. Clever manuvering on the part of the DM can make this a weakness that is quite major. Its balanced (I might even suggest a +1 bonus to defenses from alies bursts and blasts to compensate, but maybe thats a touch too powerful?)
Edit: Another problem i noticed was that they found it hard to manuver round the tough guys in the encounter. Two of them on there own can make it impossible for a melee half giant to reach teh back row, not because of oppornunity attacks, but because they can just leave single square gaps between them. It's horrible. You can't shift, you provoke OAs for trying to squeeze through, and just about everything you can do gets you killed. So the toughs out front are absorbing your blows while no one is pinning down the ranged attackers. It got nasty. However, the one major benefit for the 4 squares was close bursts. Had one all around attack. Although the positioning was harder, because it was more difficult to manuver round the enemies to maximise the no. of targets, when they started to flank.... well one of the bursts took out all of the minions. And that was the end of the flank...
I think that them combined with close bursts really is over powered. I don't know what you could do to fix it (maybe you squeeze as part of a close burst, so that you have a close burst one, rather than a burst of 12 squares with a 4 hole in the middle? I don't know. If you can fix that, then its totally balanced. Otherwise...... it needs work (sorry for the two parts of this post seeming contradictory, we played it late last night and I'm still a bit blurry).
One of my players is going to use this Massive Ability...with these changes...
I don't think he should lose the jumping and climbing bonus thing, but I also don't think he should get quite so much benefit while squeezing. I'd say that while squeezing, he should still be at half speed, still grant combat advantage, and take a -2 to attack rolls.
Medium sized Close Burst 1: 8squares
Medium sized Close Burst 2: 24squares
Medium sized Close Burst 1: 48squares
for this to work look at this:
Large sized Close Burst 1: 8squares wall adjacent to pc
Large sized Close Burst 2: 8squares wall adjacent to pc, 16squares wall adjacent to 1st wall
Large sized Close Burst 3: 8squares wall adjacent to pc, 16squares wall adjacent to 1st wall, 24 squares adjacent to 2nd wall
A Half-giant is too clumsy and off-balanced to give an all-around swing, so he, instead, "direct it"
EDIT: all squares from each wall must be adjacent to at least one square from the previous wall
EDIT2:
Any close blast delivered from a large character must have at least 2 sides ajdacent to the character
Although you may want this in the hombrew forum I am loathe to comment there, so I shall comment here.
The Massive ability does indeed have its greater and worse features. All of them are dependent on DM allowences. For instance, one could actually keep their speed at 6 even when squeezing with this, as long as there is room to be 2 by 2 on either side of the walk. This isn't actually overpowered, and encourages tactical thought for movement. I would note, however, that you should not let them go above 4 while squeezing, as clever positioning and a reasonable amount of space can do that.
i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff194/teamfi...
zoom in to read the rest of my comments on the ability, and an example of possible movement abuse, and a suggestion on clarification.
Ok I looked at your issue and here's my question. Is the half Giants ability to squeeze ONE additional square of movement froma very specific scenario more powerful then an Elf using a very specific power to shift 4 or maybe more squares ignoring that same terrain?
I mean how DARE an ability give the half giant the ability to bypass a specific terrain problem.
My group aren't getting back together for another 2 weeks, so I can't test what I'd really like to... someone with close bursts, like a monk.
Add the line "pick a square the Half Giant occupies as the center of burst related powers. This power ignores any additional squares the half giant occupies.
But, I can see the benifit of allowing them greater area bursts. This captures the Half Giant size very well. maybe reverse the massive ability.
A medium creature that may occupy 2x2 squares. While doing so reduce speed to half. Ignore difficult terrain, reduce all close burst attack and damage rolls by 2.
Rothe and VisanidetheDm, I hear what you are saying about this possibly being more of a disadvantage than an advantage. I don't really agree, because they can choose to squeeze (thus taking up only a single square) at any time. The only problem would be that they drop their movement rate from 6 to 4. It is true that there are disadvantages that come with this! But I still think, overall, it is an advantage. I might be wrong. If I am wrong, I will add powerful athlete back in. For now, however, I think I want to ere on the side of caution. I am going to allow my players to choose this race in this format. If someone does, and in game it turns out to be a bit of a disadvantage, I will then give them powerful athlete back.
The big drawback with the 2"x 2" facing isn't just squeezing. Tactically you are much more limited than a 1" base. You are very easy to flank and pin in place. Also your large base means more opponents can get melee swings off on you without relying on reach. Basically you are giving up a net +2 to hit you most of the time and are going to be subject to more attacks to boot. The only real advantages to large size are larger weapons and reach.