Half-Giant (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’2”-8’8”
Average Weight: 380-440”
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance
Mercurial Personality: You have a +1 racial bonus to Will.
Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Giant’s Stature: You gain the Giant’s Stature racial power.
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Special Note: You are considered to be a Goliath for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of any other element of the game. Any feat, power, paragon path feature, or epic destiny feature that normally works with Stone’s Endurance instead works with Giant’s Stature.
I will keep your suggestions under advisement. But I would like to see what other people think before I decide to listen. My instincts tell me that it is not overpowered as is, and would be underpowered if I listened to your suggestions. I might be wrong though.
To underline the real power behind half-giants, I was thinking that they'd get to roll all athletics checks twice - not just the climb and jump ones.
It would add stuff like break free from grab (not that common) and feats of strength (lift a heavy rock, or smash a door) - fitting thematically.
I really don't see half giants as a "magical" race, and I can't picture them inflating for 6 seconds then shrinking back.
My opinion is still that the best course of action right now is either to embrace the "new" half giants or if you want to faithfully recreate the old ones, make them large and unavailable to players.
To underline the real power behind half-giants, I was thinking that they'd get to roll all athletics checks twice - not just the climb and jump ones.
It would add stuff like break free from grab (not that common) and feats of strength (lift a heavy rock, or smash a door) - fitting thematically.
I can't do that. I want to keep the race balanced. Since I am using the Goliath as the base for my stats, that means that I am taking the Goliaths stats and simply trading out some features for other features. For example, +2 to nature becomes a +2 to endurance; Stone's Endurance becomes Giant's Stature. I can't randomly go adding other new features, or making some features stronger, as that would overpower the race.
Ok. Perhaps I should be more clear. I am asking for a PEACH on balance. Because, on subjective issues such as those commented on by VisandiethDM I already have my own opinions. The power does not represent them "growing and then shrinking." They always stay the same size. Sometimes they just take up a stance (not as in the keyword) that lets them temporarily take up more fighting space on the battlefield. They always exist in the interstitial space between medium and large. For most of the time they are just mechanically expressed as medium. For two rounds per encounter they are mechanically expressed as being (almost) large. I like the mechanic for a number of reasons. First of all, it makes giants like larger open spaces (because the power can't really be used in terrain that would require a 2 by 2 creature to squeeze). Second of all, for a short period of time it really allows the giant to express how large they are, and their ability to control the battlefield through their sheer impressive size. Third of all, it doesn't cause the same problems as actually allowing a large sized PC. I think such a power is the perfect way to model a really big PC race. So, no offense VisanidetheDm, I disagree with you on all counts. However, I do not feel 100% confident in the power's balance. What I need to know is, is the power I wrote up balanced or not? Why or why not? I would like opinions on that specifically.
I'll articulate my answer more; I understand you consider it subjective, but in the end, everything is in PEACH content.
The idea of a "stance" that makes a creature shift from being one square to 4 squares big isn't something *I* would manage to pull off in my groups under the explanation that the half giant "stands tall". The size differences in 4th edition are absolutely massive and we're talking of something becoming 4 times as big. Now we could pass it under the idea that the Half-Giant isn't exactly occupying those squares, but simply takes a stance that makes full use of his hybrid size granting him a "virtual" large status. Some suspension of disbelief would be needed, but this is a game about dragons after all.
There's however 2 issues with this:
- if the enlargement isn't supernatural, why doesn't the half giant use it all the time? What's the explanation for him "squeezing" in combat when there's no reason to do so? I guess this would call for an explanation similar to martial stances, but once again, those last an entire encounter (thus are far less tiresome to mantain). What makes taking the "giant stance" so taxing for the half giant?
- more importantly, this kind of power exacerbates the issue more than mitigating it. If you want to try and bring back the feel of half giants being large, NOTHING is worse than making them large for a turn every once in a while. Instead of allowing the players to forget the issue (whether it is perceived as such or not), you remind them every combat by giving half giants a round of "being as they should be". Once again, my personal opinion is that either you have the guts of making them large or you embrace the 4e size range and accept that creatures of the size of 2nd edition half giants aren't automatically assumed to have range and size.
Now, on the actual request (of balance), my issues with the power are:
- I perceive it as underpowered. As a minor action, it's only usable on your turn. Having reach for one turn is a very situational advantage; being a minor action and being just reach and not threatening reach, you miss the most obvious advantage of having reach which would be having opportunity attacks on non-adjacent targets.
- the enlargement effect is, like similar ones, prone to headaches. Imagine you use that power in a corridor next to a dwarf. Imagine using it in a corridor with your allies close to you. Every time you "shrink back", do you get to pick which square to end up into? If so, you trigger opportunity actions? The potential for exploit or issues is huge.
So in short, from a PEACH perspective, my issues with the power are:
- it's not very interesting (no offence) because it conflicts with the reflavouring of half giants as goliaths by exacerbating the size issue, while providing a questionable gameplay benefit (and I'm giving this as friendly advice and I understand if you'll want to discard my personal opinion as unwanted; I'm just trying to push you to rework the idea in more usable terms - which would be something along the lines of giving the goliath some of the characteristics of a large creature without touching his size)
- it's main effect is massively underpowered in my eyes; I can barely see a benefit when reach is something available to players in much more reliable and supported ways.
- it's side effect is extremely dangerous in terms of smooth gameplay, much more prone to exploits, and due to generate discussions as it's possibly overpowered ("I push the dude down the slope!") and also affects other players ("Dammit you moved me and now I'm away from my marked target!").
That's my issues with the power. The other parts of the rewrite is very good IMHO, I would encourage you to rethink the power because it feels weak where it should be strong and dangerous in what is probably a side effect.
I'll articulate my answer more; I understand you consider it subjective, but in the end, everything is in PEACH content.
I understood your position just fine the first time. I don't agree with you. As both our opinions on that issue are so subjective that they amount to "I like this sort of mechanic," or "I don't," I don't plan on discussing it with you.
Now, on the actual request (of balance), my issues with the power are:
Excellent. This is actually helpful. I am about to argue with some of your points (as arguing devils advocate is what helps me figure out my own opinion on creative projects).
- I perceive it as underpowered. As a minor action, it's only usable on your turn. Having reach for one turn is a very situational advantage; being a minor action and being just reach and not threatening reach, you miss the most obvious advantage of having reach which would be having opportunity attacks on non-adjacent targets.
First of all, you would not have use of this ability for only one turn. You would have it for two. It lasts until the end of your next turn. That means that you use a minor action before you attack on your turn, and you gain the benefits both for the turn on which you use it and the next turn after that. Second of all, threatening reach was never the point of this ability. The point is that it increases the range of your close burst and melee attacks, and allows you to control more of the battlefield as it temporarily allows you to threaten 12 squares instead of 8 and makes 3 extra squares impassible to your enemies (also making it easier for you to grant cover to your allies). I thought that that is fairly potent... but I could be wrong. I wouldn't mind some more opinions on this. If the power needs it, I can also grant it threatening reach. I was just worried that that would make it overpowered.
- the enlargement effect is, like similar ones, prone to headaches. Imagine you use that power in a corridor next to a dwarf. Imagine using it in a corridor with your allies close to you. Every time you "shrink back", do you get to pick which square to end up into? If so, you trigger opportunity actions? The potential for exploit or issues is huge.
1) Such effects already exist in the game. 2) Since shrinking back is not considered to be a "move" it would not trigger opportunity actions. 3) I see what you are saying about the problems with pushing and creatures occuping your new fighting space. I will slightly reword the power to take care of those issues. I really don't agree that the potential for exploit or issues is huge. I just think a slight rewording is necessary.
So, the power should actually read as follows:
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
If that is considered to be underpowered I can make the reach threatening, or give the half-giant a +2 to damage while the power is active, +3 at paragon tier, +4 at epic tier.
Regeneration and bonus to damage as long as you're bloodied
vs
Large Sized for two rounds anytime
I believe you could let a Half-Giant get his large sized base as long as he's bloodied.
Comparing it to Shifting racial ability from shifters:
Regeneration and bonus to damage as long as you're bloodied
vs
Large Sized for two rounds anytime
I believe you could let a Half-Giant get his large sized base as long as he's bloodied.
Hmmm. That is an interesting idea. I don't know for sure that I like it. But I don't know that I dislike it either. Between these two versions, what looks more interesting/balanced?
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Falling Giant Half-Giant Racial Power
You use your own pain to fuel the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be bloodied
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until you are no longer bloodied, you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and your range with area, melee, and ranged attacks increases by one. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
I believe you could let a Half-Giant get his large sized base as long as he's bloodied.
Are you serious? That's WAAAY too powerful. Being large size as a cuss-ton more advantages than than Shifter gets. And that's even totally ignoring that this racial power is almost completely useless to ranged characters the way that it's being conceptualized.
community.wizards.com/go/post/reply/7588...
As you stated, your design for the half giant encounter power is based on the concept that half giants sit at the border between medium and large size; you should notice that the reach for Large creatures is 1-2, and 2 is the most common reach for Huge creatures.
Anyways, on the mechanical observations:
- the assumption that having reach would alter the range of your powers is something I didn't perceive as implied; a spear for example has reach but wouldn't turn your close blast 1 attacks into close blast 2 ones.
If you want your power to work like that, make sure you word it out correctly - in that case, I would suggest the power is close to being overpowered, and I would see it as balanced (bordering absolutely-awesome-from-a-powerplay-perspective) as a minor action that grants the boon until the end of the same turn it's used in.
- while there is a number of creatures that have shapechanging (and thus sizechanging) properties, they are often problematic in the same regard. The fact that the resizing isn't a movement is once again something that should be spelled out, and so would other effects; for example, you define the size as "fighting space"; would a "large" half giant be able to squeeze through a single square passage during movement? Otherwise you would end up having a power that's situationally damaging to its user.
A suggestion: why don't you eliminate the problematic size aspect and just stick to the reach element? If you allow it to apply to powers (I guess you would word it as giving +1 to the power's range, even if I guess even that could get ugly with some blast powers etc) it's already potent enough even if the reach starts from a single square of origin.
Anyways, on the mechanical observations:
- the assumption that having reach would alter the range of your powers is something I didn't perceive as implied; a spear for example has reach but wouldn't turn your close blast 1 attacks into close blast 2 ones.
If you want your power to work like that, make sure you word it out correctly - in that case, I would suggest the power is close to being overpowered, and I would see it as balanced (bordering absolutely-awesome-from-a-powerplay-perspective) as a minor action that grants the boon until the end of the same turn it's used in.
Close based attacks automatically end up affecting more squares the larger the base of a creature is. It is just a byproduct of a creatures base taking up more space. As for the other increases in range from my last version, those were there on Crimson's suggestion in another thread. Ultimatly, however, Crimson's input and feedback seems to be geared completely towards the "never use a large base for a hero, even temporarily. Always give them something else." If I were to accept that feedback I may as well use the goliath's racial power as written. As it so happens, however, I don't agree with him. I don't think that temporarily giving a creature a large base is overpowring. It is only an issue when the large base is a constant feature. So, the benefit to range is going to be going back to melee reach only.
- while there is a number of creatures that have shapechanging (and thus sizechanging) properties, they are often problematic in the same regard. The fact that the resizing isn't a movement is once again something that should be spelled out, and so would other effects; for example, you define the size as "fighting space"; would a "large" half giant be able to squeeze through a single square passage during movement? Otherwise you would end up having a power that's situationally damaging to its user.
I don't think it is a probelm. This is a game of keywords. If a power doesn't say that you "move," you don't. If you don't move, you don't provoke attacks of oppertunity. Changing sizes does not count as moving. That is the base assumption of the RAW. No other RAW power that allows this, including powers granted to PCs (which do exist), feel the need to spell that out. And squeezing rules as written would apply as written as well. Which means this power is not usefull in tight enclosed spaces. That doesn't make the power situationally damaging to its user, because its user doesn't need to ever use the power in a situation that would not be benefical to him or her.
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and you gain a reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
Yes Crimson, I am aware that this does not really benefit ranged characters. If you have an idea on how to slightly modify the existing mechanics so that ranged characters will benefit as well I am all ears. However, my design perameters make it more important to give the half-giant a temporary large base than it is to make the power equally useful to both melee and ranged characters. Ultimatly, the fluff of the half-giant really makes them a melee focused race. They were developed by the SK to be shock troops, not archers.
I am, however, amusing the idea of giving players the option of choosing Stone's Endurance or Giant's Stature as their racial ability...
Anyways, on the mechanical observations:
- the assumption that having reach would alter the range of your powers is something I didn't perceive as implied; a spear for example has reach but wouldn't turn your close blast 1 attacks into close blast 2 ones.
If you want your power to work like that, make sure you word it out correctly - in that case, I would suggest the power is close to being overpowered, and I would see it as balanced (bordering absolutely-awesome-from-a-powerplay-perspective) as a minor action that grants the boon until the end of the same turn it's used in.
Close based attacks automatically end up affecting more squares the larger the base of a creature is. It is just a byproduct of a creatures base taking up more space. As for the other increases in range from my last version, those were there on Crimson's suggestion in another thread. Ultimatly, however, Crimson's input and feedback seems to be geared completely towards the "never use a large base for a hero, even temporarily. Always give them something else." If I were to accept that feedback I may as well use the goliath's racial power as written. As it so happens, however, I don't agree with him. I don't think that temporarily giving a creature a large base is overpowring. It is only an issue when the large base is a constant feature. So, the benefit to range is going to be going back to melee reach only.
Then we're back to the first step, and I think the power is too situational to be useful. A close burst 1 attack used by a medium creature hits 8 squares, used by a 2x2 creature hits 12. How often is that gonna be useful?
Like this, it feels underpowered.
Once again, looking at your final writeup, it's a lot of text for a power that does too little. I don't think a full turn of occupying 4 squares without reach and without threatening reach is providing a strong or interesting enough benefit. I wouldnt' stress the need to make the power useful for nonmelee types too (some races are a better fit for certain roles), but I would look at the power again and try to examine how you could make it interesting for both defenders and strikers (and possibly leaders).
The total benefits grants by this feat amount to the following:
You effectively create three squares of movable "terrain" that grant cover to your allies, but not your enemies. This terrain also blocks the movement of your enemies, but not your allies. (Great for defenders and controllers.)
You threaten 12 squares instead of 8 squares. (Great for a defender, and any basic attack using melee based character.)
You can attack up to 32 squares with a melee attack instead of 8 squares (when using an attack action). (Great for any melee based character. Best for a striker, who can now keep a little more of a buffer between themselves and their target.)
You can push up to 8 enemies one square away from you. (Great for any character, and better for strikers who are more likely to want to push their enemies away from themselves.)
Any close based power you have will end up effecting a lot more squares. (Great for leaders, who tend to have a lot of close based powers.)
Are you honestly saying that this is situational and underpowered?
What if the close blast effect of this power didn't just push targets, but pushed them and knocked them prone? Would that be enough to make this power well balanced without being overpowered?
Giant's Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
For a moment you take on the stature of your giant kin.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst
Effect: You push each target 1 square. Any enemies that you push are also knocked prone. After pushing all of the targets in the burst you increase your fighting space. Until the end of your next turn you take up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space and you gain a reach of 2. Your new fighting space must still occupy the square you were standing in when you activated this power. Your new fighting space cannot occupy the same space as any other creature. Just prior to the end of this power’s effect you must choose any square within your 2 by 2 square fighting space; when you return to your regular fighting space you occupy that square.
VisanidethDM, what do you mean without reach and without threatening reach? It grants reach 2. It just doesn't grant threatening reach. I don't know. I just find it very hard to consider this power situational.
The total benefits grants by this feat amount to the following:
a) You effectively create three squares of movable "terrain" that grant cover to your allies, but not your enemies. This terrain also blocks the movement of your enemies, but not your allies. (Great for defenders and controllers.)
b) You threaten 12 squares instead of 8 squares. (Great for a defender, and any basic attack using melee based character.)
c) You can attack up to 32 squares with a melee attack instead of 8 squares (when using an attack action). (Great for any melee based character. Best for a striker, who can now keep a little more of a buffer between themselves and their target.)
d) You can push up to 8 enemies one square away from you. (Great for any character, and better for strikers who are more likely to want to push their enemies away from themselves.)
e) Any close based power you have will end up effecting a lot more squares. (Great for leaders, who tend to have a lot of close based powers.)
Are you honestly saying that this is situational and underpowered?
What if the close blast effect of this power didn't just push targets, but pushed them and knocked them prone? Would that be enough to make this power well balanced without being overpowered?
I marked your points for easy reference:
a) however it blocks positioning for them, possibly pushing them out of range of a target, eating one square of possible flanking for a group member; it also last a single turn - I can't really imagine many situations where blocking passage to enemies would be relevant without at the same time being an hindrance for the group too (for example, the party being in a 2x2 corridor, the half giant becoming large and blocking monsters but at the same time shutting his allies out of combat).
I'm not denying there's a possible benefit in the ability, but it's too situational to be reliable in my opinion.
A large size also means greater vulnerability - it is easier for enemies to attack you and harder for allies to keep a formation to protect your sides; it's also easier to flank you.
b) this is a possibly strong misconception. The extra squares you gain are actually on the sides - once again, situationally useful but it requires a large number of enemies coming from all sides, your allies not being on your sides and so on. Also, the square you gain on your front can actually be problematic, because it pushes your allies away from a target, leading to possibly undesireable effects such as forcing them to move more into the enemy ground to reach the target and having less players threatening an opponent that is directly in front of your character. Here the short duration of the power actually helps - as enemies will have an hard time taking advantage of your new size. Still, the effect is once again extremely situational. A single shift on the right side may force the group to completely break the formation because while your character has reach, he forces the rest of the group of an extra square of movement in order to keep up with someone circling the half giant.
c) this benefit is easily replicable by using a reach weapon. In fact, an half giant using a reach weapon would see barely any benefit at all - aside from the side effect of having a 2x2 fighting space. A racial that allows you to gain the benefit of a weapon you may be already using feels weak to me, but maybe it's just me.
d) the push effect I do like, however it can be pretty devastating for defenders, who would push enemies outside of their threatened area and thus basically lose all stickiness on them. I hate to repeat myself but this is extremely situational and possibly very negative for defenders.
e) close blasts are unaffected, close burst get once again 4 extra squares on burst 1 and so on. However, the benefit is just not there. A close burst 1 power, to affect your allies, would require your allies to be adjacent to you or 1 square away when you expand and then them not moving during their turn in order not to lose the bonus. But most leader powers that affect allies are close burst 5 or even 10... once again, imagining a situation where size is a benefit here requires too much imagination for me to make the power desireable.
Now I don't wanna torment you further; if you're fond of the power you created, more power to you and to your players. My final feedback is that I think the ability isn't powerful enough and has a solid amount of possible harmful effects for the group. But I have very few "positive" suggestion to give because I don't know how to fix the issue because my perspective is biased (I see the core effects of the power as undesireable) and any fix I would push for would bring the power further away from what you want it to be.
I wish you the best luck with the fine tuning, and that your group will enjoy your rewrite of the race
.I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but it's something to consider.
Uggggh. Ok, back to the drawing board to start from scratch.
Nah. Mechanically speaking, it's super easy a fix: Make a specific, explicit exception in the ability that states that this forced movement (slide, push, whatever you end up choosing) CANNOT be prevented by other abilities, with a caveat of: Any such forced move that causes a character to be pushed into a dangerous situation such as off a cliff or into a damaging terrain feature instead knocks the target prone. It is absolutely no problem, and moreover thematic, if you are suddenly standing over someone or multiple someones who are prone beneath your massive frame.
This specific type of clause added will override a dwarf's ability, etc, because it specifically says that it does.
ETA: Better yet, why not just make the ability knock the creature prone, period? A knock prone that specifically ignores abilities that prevent knocking prone. Then, it becomes up to the enemy/ally in question to decide if they want to shift away by standing up, or stay beneath you and attack from prone. Just make sure you include a clause that states that none of the squares in your new base can occupy the same squares as a Large or larger creature.