How do you handle wilderness? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

How do you handle wilderness?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Acrilos
Nov 15, 2010 11:15:05 Hey there,

I am running a Dark Sun campaign. It started in september and the players are almost at paragon level now (most probably at the end of the next session where they will have to see the proper NPC/event to unlock their paragon tier).

The party arrived to a point where they rarely fail at a Nature check DC 25 while in the wilderness, thus easily feeding all the party. In the group there are characters that have a very good Nature skill.
At low level it was challenging, the party needed to check for their survival stuff and buying when possible what they needed for their next trek into the deserts of Athas. But not anymore. Survival to find the needed food and water is no longer a problem. Of course, it's understandable since the characters become more accustomed to the various landscapes they travel in and more experienced. But survival for food and water is no longer in the way most of the time.

Now I play the wilderness as a narration (between specific sites for the adventure). I interrupt when there is a significant event or location the characters stumble into. I try to make encounters with monsters and NPC as logical as possible considering the landscape the characters travel through. But, in a way, when I throw at them some monsters during a travel, they know that there is a good chance it will be the only encounter for the day so they do not hesitate to use most of their daily powers, effectively reducing the danger the encounter represents (I succeed in surprising them every so often though). I've considered not planning wilderness encounters at all and do all of that part in narration (focusing on the main adventure and campaign) but it would be kind of wierd. After all the deserts of Athas are supposed to be really dangerous.

I was wondering how other DMs manage the wilderness part in their campaign.

#2
modern_iconoclast
Nov 15, 2010 12:46:25 I think it's good to include the wilderness as a mean and recurrent enemy for most of the heroic tier.
At paragon levels I've experienced much the same as you're describing, skill checks become easy enough to wave them.

I tend to narrate travels too, but I will often use the terrains and features at the end of the creature catalog. Sometimes the players see me work with dungeon tiles and expect a fight, only to have a couple of concealed special terrain to get through. It takes a minimal amount of time, there are different terrain types and levels to entertain even paragon characters and it keeps the travelling dangerous and not just because of encounters.

A good mix of creatures encounters, special terrain and skill challenges still make travel more difficult on Athas than anywhere else the players have had a character play. It's just not sun sickness anymore.

Good luck!

#3
jlwfnord
Nov 15, 2010 13:44:57 In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter".
#4
fromost_the_grimm_02
Nov 15, 2010 14:34:42 I think the mechanics involved are designed such that desert survival is supposed to be a challenge at Heroic tier, yet fade into simplicity by Paragon tier. As the heroes become truly heroic, a wee walk in the desert becomes a piece of cake.

Players blowing their daily's through a series of one-encounter-per-day scenarios, however, is a symptom of 4E mechanics that I've experienced in all the settings I've played in. A quick and easy fix is to vary your encounter frequency and difficulty. On some days, give them just the one encounter per day, and on others, give them three in quick succession. Make the first encounter relatively easy, so they blow their daily's on a bunch of minions ... then follow that up with a hard encounter, say a few defiler out-riders from Slither and associated half giant meat-shields. If your players are so blase about desert travel, remind them what it was like to be out of resources and fleeing for their lives through the wastes. The next day, give them the one encounter, and narrate it, saying combat was met but the opposing silt runners immediately saw they were outclassed and beat a very hasty retreat, so no experience. The next day, another low-level encounter, but run it, and see how your players use their resources. Simply vary what encounters you throw at them and keep them off their toes. And always have an EL+2 desert encounter at the ready, for those sessions when the players guffaw at how easy life in the desert is.

Also, try running a few non-travel story-arcs for a bit, to take away any tedium associated with life in the desert. Have them embroiled in some city-state politics, or a good ol' fashioned dungeon crawl exploring some under-Tyr ruins ... something so that when they're next traipsing through the desert, they feel like that haven't done so for a while, so don't know what to expect.

Then drop a drake on 'em.
#5
Alphastream
Nov 15, 2010 14:53:21 Acrilos, your approach sounds good to me. It isn't particularly fun to run through a skill challenge (or derivation of that) every time you cross the desert, especially if you do it fairly often.

On the other hand, I would retain enough control to keep things interesting. I would write down a basic premise for your campaign and then work to realize it.

When traveling across the wastes, how often should they find something interesting?

How often should they face a danger?

How often should they be pressed for resources?

Based on that, I would then work to identify the mechanics that will enable that. The DC for foraging should vary based on many factors, and I don't even buy it in the first place. My default position would be "this is the DC if there is stuff available" and then feel free to say that they are in an area with extremely low resources. My default is also that anyone wanting to survive the desert needs to bring resources with them (merchants, raiders, etc.) or be incredibly well-suited to the environment (most creatures native to the terrain). Now, it helps to do this at the beginning of the campaign. But, you could also introduce unusually harsh weather as part of some plot point. Nature withdraws and dies and foraging becomes much more difficult until PCs resolve some campaign thread (and maybe for ever).

In terms of gaming sessions, I would do whatever is fun. For me as a player, I would like to run into periodic resource issues. Maybe a storm comes and turns my water (or even gear!) into sand. Maybe I am in a really harsh area. The Sea of Silt isn't a picnic for anyone. I want that challenge, but I also want it to feel fresh. Don't bother tracking supplies if all you will do is have one encounter and the trip is short, but do track it if the PCs are exploring, in dangerous territory, or the trip is long.
#6
DontEatRawHagis
Nov 15, 2010 16:38:23
In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter".

I like this approach, It takes at least few days to get to some places. I don't like the idea of my players constantly regaining dailies and healing surges between encounters. Doing one encounter a day seems like the normal in other games.

This is definetely something I might adopt for my campaign or I might set up long campaigns(Five encounters a day of travel) involving just travel.
#7
Acrilos
Nov 16, 2010 6:05:49

I tend to narrate travels too, but I will often use the terrains and features at the end of the creature catalog. Sometimes the players see me work with dungeon tiles and expect a fight, only to have a couple of concealed special terrain to get through. It takes a minimal amount of time, there are different terrain types and levels to entertain even paragon characters and it keeps the travelling dangerous and not just because of encounters.

A good mix of creatures encounters, special terrain and skill challenges still make travel more difficult on Athas than anywhere else the players have had a character play. It's just not sun sickness anymore.

I've not yet used special terrains, but I aggree they're worth using as challenges during wilderness. I tend ot build side quests during the wilderness parts. It sometimes takes the adventurers two or three adventures to reach their intended location.

In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter".

I like this idea. It would thus make the entire wilderness an adventure of its own. The players would therefore have to manage their ressources (healing surges) during the wilderness and not act too impulsively and waste them too fast.

But, you could also introduce unusually harsh weather as part of some plot point. Nature withdraws and dies and foraging becomes much more difficult until PCs resolve some campaign thread (and maybe for ever).

In terms of gaming sessions, I would do whatever is fun. For me as a player, I would like to run into periodic resource issues. Maybe a storm comes and turns my water (or even gear!) into sand. Maybe I am in a really harsh area. The Sea of Silt isn't a picnic for anyone. I want that challenge, but I also want it to feel fresh. Don't bother tracking supplies if all you will do is have one encounter and the trip is short, but do track it if the PCs are exploring, in dangerous territory, or the trip is long.

An interesting idea. Harsh weather, especially sandstorms, are an occurance on Athas and can ideed be used as an obstacle for the players.

Thank you all for sharing your views and the ways you play through the wilderness part. Please continue to feed this thread so we can share more !

Usually when I build an adventure, I always place several encounters on a row so that the players have to manage their ressources (healing surges and daily powers). Not really knowing when an adventure would end (or when the "last encounter" will occur), some players refrain from using daily powers too quickly. It happened a few times a character had only used one daily power in the whole adventure because he was expecting a "much more difficult" encounter at the end. Often i advise my players (ususally a party of 5 characters) to use one or two daily from the party during each encounter. Sometimes, though even standard encounters require no daily power usage, but healing surges suffer in that case (and the new monster damage - which I reduce regularily - make that certain).
#8
603
Nov 16, 2010 20:10:02 For some reason, I still think of the wilderness in terms of random encounter checks by the DM and checks by the players to make sure they don't get lost and accidentally walk into the maw of a catastophic dragon thinking its just a cave. Then again, that's old 1e-era stuff, and probably no longer suited for post-3.x play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Acrilos Nov 15, 2010 11:15:05	Hey there, I am running a Dark Sun campaign. It started in september and the players are almost at paragon level now (most probably at the end of the next session where they will have to see the proper NPC/event to unlock their paragon tier). The party arrived to a point where they rarely fail at a Nature check DC 25 while in the wilderness, thus easily feeding all the party. In the group there are characters that have a very good Nature skill. At low level it was challenging, the party needed to check for their survival stuff and buying when possible what they needed for their next trek into the deserts of Athas. But not anymore. Survival to find the needed food and water is no longer a problem. Of course, it's understandable since the characters become more accustomed to the various landscapes they travel in and more experienced. But survival for food and water is no longer in the way most of the time. Now I play the wilderness as a narration (between specific sites for the adventure). I interrupt when there is a significant event or location the characters stumble into. I try to make encounters with monsters and NPC as logical as possible considering the landscape the characters travel through. But, in a way, when I throw at them some monsters during a travel, they know that there is a good chance it will be the only encounter for the day so they do not hesitate to use most of their daily powers, effectively reducing the danger the encounter represents (I succeed in surprising them every so often though). I've considered not planning wilderness encounters at all and do all of that part in narration (focusing on the main adventure and campaign) but it would be kind of wierd. After all the deserts of Athas are supposed to be really dangerous. I was wondering how other DMs manage the wilderness part in their campaign.
#2 modern_iconoclast Nov 15, 2010 12:46:25	I think it's good to include the wilderness as a mean and recurrent enemy for most of the heroic tier. At paragon levels I've experienced much the same as you're describing, skill checks become easy enough to wave them. I tend to narrate travels too, but I will often use the terrains and features at the end of the creature catalog. Sometimes the players see me work with dungeon tiles and expect a fight, only to have a couple of concealed special terrain to get through. It takes a minimal amount of time, there are different terrain types and levels to entertain even paragon characters and it keeps the travelling dangerous and not just because of encounters. A good mix of creatures encounters, special terrain and skill challenges still make travel more difficult on Athas than anywhere else the players have had a character play. It's just not sun sickness anymore. Good luck!
#3 jlwfnord Nov 15, 2010 13:44:57	In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter".
#4 fromost_the_grimm_02 Nov 15, 2010 14:34:42	I think the mechanics involved are designed such that desert survival is supposed to be a challenge at Heroic tier, yet fade into simplicity by Paragon tier. As the heroes become truly heroic, a wee walk in the desert becomes a piece of cake. Players blowing their daily's through a series of one-encounter-per-day scenarios, however, is a symptom of 4E mechanics that I've experienced in all the settings I've played in. A quick and easy fix is to vary your encounter frequency and difficulty. On some days, give them just the one encounter per day, and on others, give them three in quick succession. Make the first encounter relatively easy, so they blow their daily's on a bunch of minions ... then follow that up with a hard encounter, say a few defiler out-riders from Slither and associated half giant meat-shields. If your players are so blase about desert travel, remind them what it was like to be out of resources and fleeing for their lives through the wastes. The next day, give them the one encounter, and narrate it, saying combat was met but the opposing silt runners immediately saw they were outclassed and beat a very hasty retreat, so no experience. The next day, another low-level encounter, but run it, and see how your players use their resources. Simply vary what encounters you throw at them and keep them off their toes. And always have an EL+2 desert encounter at the ready, for those sessions when the players guffaw at how easy life in the desert is. Also, try running a few non-travel story-arcs for a bit, to take away any tedium associated with life in the desert. Have them embroiled in some city-state politics, or a good ol' fashioned dungeon crawl exploring some under-Tyr ruins ... something so that when they're next traipsing through the desert, they feel like that haven't done so for a while, so don't know what to expect. Then drop a drake on 'em.
#5 Alphastream Nov 15, 2010 14:53:21	Acrilos, your approach sounds good to me. It isn't particularly fun to run through a skill challenge (or derivation of that) every time you cross the desert, especially if you do it fairly often. On the other hand, I would retain enough control to keep things interesting. I would write down a basic premise for your campaign and then work to realize it. When traveling across the wastes, how often should they find something interesting? How often should they face a danger? How often should they be pressed for resources? Based on that, I would then work to identify the mechanics that will enable that. The DC for foraging should vary based on many factors, and I don't even buy it in the first place. My default position would be "this is the DC if there is stuff available" and then feel free to say that they are in an area with extremely low resources. My default is also that anyone wanting to survive the desert needs to bring resources with them (merchants, raiders, etc.) or be incredibly well-suited to the environment (most creatures native to the terrain). Now, it helps to do this at the beginning of the campaign. But, you could also introduce unusually harsh weather as part of some plot point. Nature withdraws and dies and foraging becomes much more difficult until PCs resolve some campaign thread (and maybe for ever). In terms of gaming sessions, I would do whatever is fun. For me as a player, I would like to run into periodic resource issues. Maybe a storm comes and turns my water (or even gear!) into sand. Maybe I am in a really harsh area. The Sea of Silt isn't a picnic for anyone. I want that challenge, but I also want it to feel fresh. Don't bother tracking supplies if all you will do is have one encounter and the trip is short, but do track it if the PCs are exploring, in dangerous territory, or the trip is long.
#6 DontEatRawHagis Nov 15, 2010 16:38:23	In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter". I like this approach, It takes at least few days to get to some places. I don't like the idea of my players constantly regaining dailies and healing surges between encounters. Doing one encounter a day seems like the normal in other games. This is definetely something I might adopt for my campaign or I might set up long campaigns(Five encounters a day of travel) involving just travel.
#7 Acrilos Nov 16, 2010 6:05:49	I tend to narrate travels too, but I will often use the terrains and features at the end of the creature catalog. Sometimes the players see me work with dungeon tiles and expect a fight, only to have a couple of concealed special terrain to get through. It takes a minimal amount of time, there are different terrain types and levels to entertain even paragon characters and it keeps the travelling dangerous and not just because of encounters. A good mix of creatures encounters, special terrain and skill challenges still make travel more difficult on Athas than anywhere else the players have had a character play. It's just not sun sickness anymore. I've not yet used special terrains, but I aggree they're worth using as challenges during wilderness. I tend ot build side quests during the wilderness parts. It sometimes takes the adventurers two or three adventures to reach their intended location. In our campaign, extended rests in the wilderness restore daily powers but not healing surges. It takes a skill challenge to set up a camp sufficient to restore healing surges. So, we get the ability to play with daily powers a bit more, which is fun for novas and such, but we can't go full-bore and fail to use basic tactics just because "oh well we'll get an extended rest so it doesn't matter". I like this idea. It would thus make the entire wilderness an adventure of its own. The players would therefore have to manage their ressources (healing surges) during the wilderness and not act too impulsively and waste them too fast. But, you could also introduce unusually harsh weather as part of some plot point. Nature withdraws and dies and foraging becomes much more difficult until PCs resolve some campaign thread (and maybe for ever). In terms of gaming sessions, I would do whatever is fun. For me as a player, I would like to run into periodic resource issues. Maybe a storm comes and turns my water (or even gear!) into sand. Maybe I am in a really harsh area. The Sea of Silt isn't a picnic for anyone. I want that challenge, but I also want it to feel fresh. Don't bother tracking supplies if all you will do is have one encounter and the trip is short, but do track it if the PCs are exploring, in dangerous territory, or the trip is long. An interesting idea. Harsh weather, especially sandstorms, are an occurance on Athas and can ideed be used as an obstacle for the players. Thank you all for sharing your views and the ways you play through the wilderness part. Please continue to feed this thread so we can share more ! Usually when I build an adventure, I always place several encounters on a row so that the players have to manage their ressources (healing surges and daily powers). Not really knowing when an adventure would end (or when the "last encounter" will occur), some players refrain from using daily powers too quickly. It happened a few times a character had only used one daily power in the whole adventure because he was expecting a "much more difficult" encounter at the end. Often i advise my players (ususally a party of 5 characters) to use one or two daily from the party during each encounter. Sometimes, though even standard encounters require no daily power usage, but healing surges suffer in that case (and the new monster damage - which I reduce regularily - make that certain).
#8 603 Nov 16, 2010 20:10:02	For some reason, I still think of the wilderness in terms of random encounter checks by the DM and checks by the players to make sure they don't get lost and accidentally walk into the maw of a catastophic dragon thinking its just a cave. Then again, that's old 1e-era stuff, and probably no longer suited for post-3.x play.