I know that Arcane magic isn't thought highly of, but Artificers are good at aiding others due to magic items. From what I've read/gathered, there's really not very many magic items on Athas. PC's will end up getting bonuses and things like that over magic items. So where does this lead the Artificer?
Thanks for the help.
I would appreciate any information on Magic Items, since I'm starting to craft my campaign and this wasn't something I didn't take into account yet. I know GP is called ceramic. Are there Potions, or is it just the "Potion Fruit" stuff?
So Magic Items are allowed then? Are they made of bone and everything too?
I would appreciate any information on Magic Items, since I'm starting to craft my campaign and this wasn't something I didn't take into account yet. I know GP is called ceramic. Are there Potions, or is it just the "Potion Fruit" stuff?
Yes, magic weapons can be made of different materials so you can have a bone sword +1 or a obsidian sword +2 or what have you.
In the original setting set there were no potions, just the potion fruits. This may have changed, but I won't know until this Saturday.
So Magic Items are allowed then? Are they made of bone and everything too?
According to people who already have the DSCG, magic weapons and armour with a +3 or better enhancement bonus can be metal. +1 and +2 items are bone/obsidian/chitin etc.
With the Eladrin already being outsiders and mysterious in Dark Sun, it's simpler to justify. He's just one of the few survivors of a now-destroyed colony of Eladrin to still clung to arcane magic. Taken prisoner by Sorcerer-King Kalak, who wanted to know how this magic works so he could arm his templars with powerful magic weapons, he escaped when Kalak was killed.
The first campaign adventure would be traversing the desert to find another hidden Eladrin city, trying to rejoin his people, only to find that they reject (and possibly try to kill) him for his use of Arcane magic.
Mechanically - Remember that Artificers inherently have the Enchant Magic Item ritual. There may not be many magic items in Dark Sun, but you're one of the few with the ability to create them. You just need reagants, which could present its own problem.
He can also hide where his magic comes from, passing himself off as a psionic enchanter or primal totem maker or something similar.
With so much alternative magic, how do people even notice an arcane user? If he doesn't defile.
I got the impression from the setting that part of the reason that all arcane spellcasters are hated on Athas is that (a) the use of arcane magic is obvious (as opposed to psionic or elemental magic) and (b) there's no obvious visible difference between preserving and defiling to the average layman.
In my opinion artificers don't fit the world and would need to be shoe-horned in, just like divine characters. Or vegetarian halflings.
He can also hide where his magic comes from, passing himself off as a psionic enchanter or primal totem maker or something similar.
With so much alternative magic, how do people even notice an arcane user? If he doesn't defile.
I got the impression from the setting that part of the reason that all arcane spellcasters are hated on Athas is that (a) the use of arcane magic is obvious (as opposed to psionic or elemental magic) and (b) there's no obvious visible difference between preserving and defiling to the average layman.
Actually from what I've heard any arcane caster can roll a bluff check to disguise their spells as psionics or another type of magic. Arcane casters like Templars have a bonus to their insight to see through it. If you use the defiling at will it is an automatic failure to the bluff check.
My concern with artificers is the use of metal. Many of the pictures show gears, clockwork items, and limbs made of metal. You have to change or ignore a lot of the descriptive text to squeeze an artificer into Dark Sun.
In my opinion artificers don't fit the world and would need to be shoe-horned in, just like divine characters. Or vegetarian halflings.
Are you likewise banning Fighers because they have powers called things like "Rain of Steel" or "Tide of Iron"?
C'mon, dude. It's flavor text. Reflavor it - voila, fixed.
Are you likewise banning Fighers because they have powers called things like "Rain of Steel" or "Tide of Iron"?
This is amusing because it's both metal AND water related.
there's no obvious visible difference between preserving and defiling to the average layman.
Aside from the circle of ash he creates around himself when casting and the pain living creatures around him endure when he his casting.
Note: average layman! He's probably never experienced that, and while watching an arcane spellcaster, probably wouldn't consider its absence to be a mitigating circumstance for reporting him or her to the nearest Templar.
If you take the position that all content should be allowed at all times, then threads like this don't really serve a purpose. Ta-da, artificers just fit. Clerics of Vecna seek to overthrow the Dragon. Minotaur fighters walk the streets of Waterdeep. Tribes of cannibalistic halflings with spellscars rule the underworld in the city of Sharn. And lightsaber-wielding Jedi battle the Klingons for control of Babylon 9. It's just flavor text.
If you take the position that all content should be allowed at all times, then threads like this don't really serve a purpose. Ta-da, artificers just fit. Clerics of Vecna seek to overthrow the Dragon. Minotaur fighters walk the streets of Waterdeep. Tribes of cannibalistic halflings with spellscars rule the underworld in the city of Sharn. And lightsaber-wielding Jedi battle the Klingons for control of Babylon 9. It's just flavor text.
I'm not saying that Dark Sun has to have artificers...I was just trying to figure out what to allow in my campaign. Obviously there are no divine classes, but looking through what was left, it just made me think.
Artificer paragon path, the Self-Forged.
"During the Last War, a few mastermakers who worked in the foundries that produced warforged became convinced that warforged were exemplars of perfection. Now renegades from their former employers, these individuals seek to improve their own forms by installing mechanical augmentations into their flesh. To become a self-forged, your first step is to install a battlefist, a mechanized steel appendage that resembles a gauntlet with articulated fingers."
I was just trying to figure out what to allow in my campaign.
My answer to this question and its variants is always the following:
If one of your players wants to play Class X, then it's up to that player to come up with a way to make Class X fit with whichever setting you are playing in. If none of your players want to play Class X, then feel free to say that Class X does not exist in the setting you are playing in. This applies to any combination of class and setting.
If you really need help, here's some example substitutions.
- mechanical, mechanized » arcane, alchemical, ancient
- steel » iron, bronze (you're Paragon Tier, after all, metal should be more accessible than in Heroic)
- steel » bone, stone, wood (actually, since the Self-Forged uses Warforged technology, this means that the core of the Battlefist is actually wood already)
And really, if you use some of these, the most offending part of the posted artwork is the dwarf having a beard.
...
Yeah, I'm also not seeing the conflict between Artificer and Dark Sun. One of the features of the setting comes from the fact that people don't stop making stuff when there's no metal around.
Artificer paragon path, the Self-Forged.
"During the Last War, a few mastermakers who worked in the foundries that produced warforged became convinced that warforged were exemplars of perfection. Now renegades from their former employers, these individuals seek to improve their own forms by installing mechanical augmentations into their flesh. To become a self-forged, your first step is to install a battlefist, a mechanized steel appendage that resembles a gauntlet with articulated fingers."
Your argument is that there is a paragon path which is specific to Eberron and warforged (which are not cannonly part of Dark Sun) and this is why artificers won't fit? Kind of reaching here aren't you?
But yeah, it's an asinine argument.
You know how in movies like Indiana Jones or The Mummy, we see complex mechanical devices made of stone? Hmmmmmm... I wonder if, using the power of imagination, we could apply the same principles to Dark Sun!
*tries*
Oh my goodness, it worked!
Seriously, though, I like the assertion that these magical mechanical devices that would never function in reality are somehow less plausible if they're made of stone or wood.
Actually Warforged specifically cannot follow that paragon path.
I was referring more to the fact that it is tied specifically to Eberron, not that warforged could take it. The path allows you to gain aspects of warforged.
No where in the description of artificers is metal specifically referenced as being very important to the class. Want some good ideas for mechanical devices made of alternate materials? Watch the Flintstones.
The more I think about this, the more I come up with some good points.
Looking at things like the Seven Wonders of the World and items built with little advanced technology, artificers work well in Dark Sun as long as you keep the flavor right (which most people tend to do).
Honestly though, I'm still having some issues with the self forged without all the advanced technology of Eberron. My favorite thought so far is using bone, chitin and animal parts along with stone, obsidian and other natural items besides metals.
Artificiers kick ass, they only need to have their name and flavor text redrawn, same for the dozens of powers. But mechanically, it's great.
In Kurn, there is the Maker clave, which would do various things that could work here. Its slightly different, but it should be portable. With all the work that Dwarves do in places, it shouldn't be to hard to imagine that they could also get involved. Even someone who would be an official historian of a Noble or Templar (NOT a SK) or explorer or something. It would be different from a survival themed campaign, but could work as a city based noble feud campaign.
And lightsaber-wielding Jedi battle the Klingons for control of Babylon 9.
I would pay good money to see this.
I like how we're talking about the artificer being hard to fit into Dark Sun, the most psionic heavy campaign setting out there, and no one has suggested the psionic artificer from Eberron 3.x. Honestly, reflavoring these things is so much easier than people are making it out to be. DS cleric? They worship the primordials instead of the gods. DS Artificer? Psionic, possibly worked for an SK, templar anyone? Hybrid artificer with SK warlock? I personally think it's pretty silly they took divine out of DS. You can easily make all those classes fit. Rune Priests already make a ton of sense on its own, same with Cleric, just have them worship elementals/primordials. Paladin is a little trickier, but you could easily just make them non-good and make them templars, or you could have them be adminstrator/enforcers of the SK cults. Again, could possibly work as jedi types mystics from the desert who are either in tune with the elements or simply just psionic in nature. And the same goes for the avenger and invoker. SK's are really good stand-ins for the gods, primordials/elementals are just as good plus the inversion suits the setting, psionic reflavoring is easy as pie, likewise with primal/arcane. As far as metal for the artificer, just make it some ritual they have, or give them patronage from an SK or templar, blah blah.
Divine was removed for thematic reasons. No one is saying that it can not be used in Dark Sun, only that it will not be supported. Any class can have keywords changed but not everyone wishes to do so. Sometimes it is best to give advice as though it must be done within the rules. Everything you've said is true, but that is not the point. Artificers work well just as they are like any other arcane class with little to no changes to fluff.
He can also hide where his magic comes from, passing himself off as a psionic enchanter or primal totem maker or something similar.
With so much alternative magic, how do people even notice an arcane user? If he doesn't defile.
Ordinary people can't usually tell the difference between the different kinds of magic, according to the book. Arcane spellcasters only have to make bluff checks when performing magic around classes that would know that something is up, like templars, other arcane spellcasters, and nobles trained in psionics.
Defiling is always obvious. According to the book, you can't even attempt to disguise arcane magic when you defile because of the visible effects on the environment.
* the wandering/exiled Eladrin (as suggested)
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* a rogue halfling who tapped into the lifeshaping ways of his ancestors
* a half-mad Templar researcher attempting to escape his sorcerer king
I don't know all the details of the halfling/lifeshaper lore, but it seems like a good fit.
Thematically, I think the reflavor of a Dark Sun Artificer should emphasize trying to retrofit and hack what little technology/advanced-magic you can find. There should be a sense of loss as you're trying to cobble together magic that was probably much more prolific and advanced in a past age. I think these concepts would work:
* the wandering/exiled Eladrin (as suggested)
html_removed * a rogue halfling who tapped into the lifeshaping ways of his ancestors
* a half-mad Templar researcher attempting to escape his sorcerer king
I don't know all the details of the halfling/lifeshaper lore, but it seems like a good fit.
I was just going to post something very similar. Artificers absolutely have a place on Athas. Their fluff is just a little different then their fluff in Eberron. In Eberron they are inventors bringing in a new age. In Dark Sun they are scavengers finding pieces of long lost technology, and retrofitting it to work with whatever they have at hand. These characters are common types in post-apocalyptic fiction. Defiling would even work with them. It is not that they defile themselves, but sometimes they can squeeze out a little extra power from something they have on hand. As the technology they are using is magical in nature, when they do so it still damages the environment. Even that paragon path can work, as someone who is grafting bits and pieces of ancient technology, coupled with bone, chitin, and the like, to themselves. Of course, such a character would probably be hated and hunted by the templar, just like all other magic users, unless they were within the employ of the templar.
That seems very Dark Sun to me...
That said, I don't think the artificer fits on Athas, regardless of whether it's arcane or psionic (but especially not if it's arcane). Artificer's bind magic into objects, but one of the key features of Athas is the inferiority of its materials. With weapons breaking left and right and it being too hot for heavy armor, I don't see a lot of demand for permanent magic items - and the section on fixed enhancement bonuses reinforces this.
To be fair, this could also be an argument in favor of artificers - people who can temporarily enhance objects could be quite important.
If the class continues to be arcane, though, I think it really doesn't make sense. Cranking out arcane magic items all day every day is a great way to get strung up or put down by templars. It also doesn't fit well the the history and flavor of arcane magic on Athas, with mages either carefully managing the life force they draw or sucking the land dry. Creating magic items suggests a level of scientific development in magic which I don't believe Athas has or ever will reach.
Here's the simplest option: Just call the artificer a psionic class instead and reflavor its powers to be like the 3E metacreative psions, who created matter with their minds. Don't let artificers defile and you're done.
That said, I don't think the artificer fits on Athas, regardless of whether it's arcane or psionic (but especially not if it's arcane). Artificer's bind magic into objects, but one of the key features of Athas is the inferiority of its materials. With weapons breaking left and right and it being too hot for heavy armor, I don't see a lot of demand for permanent magic items - and the section on fixed enhancement bonuses reinforces this.
To be fair, this could also be an argument in favor of artificers - people who can temporarily enhance objects could be quite important.
If the class continues to be arcane, though, I think it really doesn't make sense. Cranking out arcane magic items all day every day is a great way to get strung up or put down by templars. It also doesn't fit well the the history and flavor of arcane magic on Athas, with mages either carefully managing the life force they draw or sucking the land dry. Creating magic items suggests a level of scientific development in magic which I don't believe Athas has or ever will reach.
See some of the earlier posts on this thread. They make perfect sense as arcane characters. Hell, not only do they make perfect sense as arcane characters, but they would fill a very important post-apocalyptic character niche by doing so (the one who finds pieces of, tinkers with, and re-builds, the technology of ages past).
"During the Last War, a few mastermakers who worked in the foundries that produced warforged became convinced that warforged were exemplars of perfection. Now renegades from their former employers, these individuals seek to improve their own forms by installing mechanical augmentations into their flesh. To become a self-forged, your first step is to install a battlefist, a mechanized steel appendage that resembles a gauntlet with articulated fingers."
Now, with a little Reflavor-o-matic use
Artificer paragon path, the Flesh-Carved.
"During the many wars of Draj, a few mastermakers who worked in the Quarries that produced The Black Guard became convinced that The Black Guard were exemplars of perfection. Now renegades from their former Sorcerer King Tectuktitlay, these individuals seek to improve their own forms by incorporating obsidian augmentations into their flesh. To become a Flesh-Carved, your first step is to install a battlefist, a magically Hardened Obsidian appendage that resembles a gauntlet with articulated fingers."
I look forward to learning what these two are all about. The remainder of the party consists of two martial PCs and two primal PCs.
Second, lets look at this from an RP perspective. The character has pieces of his arm that are always breaking. He is constantly looking for tiny pieces of metal to melt down and add to his arm. Maybe he even uses inferior metals like gold not knowing that they wont work because he is inexperienced with metal uses... I think a self forged artificer in Dark Sun had huge potential for role play fun... now I kinda want to do it... Anyone else think it could be a riot?
Right, that all makes sense. From the artificer class features however, they get a lot of bonuses when other PC's use magic item daily powers and can even re-charge daily powers. How will this work if there are no magic items in Dark Sun?
I assume you are talking about the Boons-type no magic items set up from DMG2;
similar to the table they produced in DS.
Yep ... if that's the way you are going, Artificer is substantially weaker.
And there's no way to play catch up, either.
If you wanted to Houserule a twink, just for an Artificer in that situation ONLY
an Arty could make items, but only with the Gold that's gained under normal adventuring treasure.
You end up making (guess-timating) ~25% of the treasure slot items.
And if you try to make items above level via Mark of Making feat
or Master Crafter (sp?) feat ... you just blow through your money that much quicker.
Houserule specifically.
My guess is this kind of Arty would or should scare the living daylights out of the people.
"Hunt the Heretic" is a fun game regardless of setting.
Other classes aren't supposed to be able to make Items, in a no magic item campaign,
so Wizards would have to have NO access to Enchant Magic Item ritual.
But one of the weird options in DMG2 is to have the underlying magic item,
be upgradeable, and the boon is applied to the item - seperately.
So now you have magic items back in the game; unless you don't want to.
Artificer->Self-forged (with the gauntlet made out of stone, giving the impression of an animated sarcophagus), and then take the Dragon King Epic Destiny! I'm getting a pretty awesome "stone dragon" vibe here.
