Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 homicidal_squirrel Jun 24, 2010 23:36:04	Out of curiosity, what would you consider too much change to DS? How much would have to change for you to no longer consider 4E DS to be Dark Sun? I know that we can add or remove anything we want. I know we can house-rule away any of the changes we don’t like or house-rule any changes we think should have been made… and I know we can re-skin any race that doesn’t fit to one that does. I’m not interested in that… I want to know what changes or how many changes would have to be made to the published DSCG for you to consider that the devs went too far in changing stuff to fit 4E… or is it even possible to change too much?
#2 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 24, 2010 23:41:27	No sea of silt, it is now water. Races are all as they would be found in vanilla PHB's. No SK's, no city-states. Multiple nations with vast territories. No more psionics. The setting now has real gods, clerics, etc. No races eradicated. Defiling doesn't exist.
#3 homicidal_squirrel Jun 24, 2010 23:52:13	No sea of silt, it is now water. Races are all as they would be found in vanilla PHB's. No SK's, no city-states. Multiple nations with vast territories. No more psionics. The setting now has real gods, clerics, etc. No races eradicated. Defiling doesn't exist. that's quite a numbers of changes... how about changes in smaller increments? what is the minimum amount of changes that would have to be made in order for DS to lose the DS feel?
#4 FlashbackJon Jun 25, 2010 0:11:42	How exactly does one quantify "amount" of change?
#5 Nyarlathotep Jun 25, 2010 0:16:08	When you are talking small changes that's an unanswerable question.  I doubt anyone can really say "If they change 10 things that's okay, but if they change 11, then they've gone too far". Personally, I don't think its a problem unless they change the major conceits of the setting,  pretty much the things Xlorep said along with the same major NPCs and settings.   The smaller details don't become a problem until they add up to changing something big.
#6 FlashbackJon Jun 25, 2010 0:22:20	Giving the thread the benefit of the doubt (that is, assuming it is NOT simply a passive-aggressive attempt to badmouth the new Dark Sun), I'd have to say that if any of the "Dark Sun in Seven Sentences" hadn't made it onto the list, that would probably have crossed my line.
#7 homicidal_squirrel Jun 25, 2010 0:26:27	How exactly does one quantify "amount" of change? good question... i have no idea... i guess maybe just a small number of changes... i could say that adding gnomes can be considered a small change... then again someone else can consider that a huge change...
#8 homicidal_squirrel Jun 25, 2010 0:29:04	Giving the thread the benefit of the doubt (that is, assuming it is NOT simply a passive-aggressive attempt to badmouth the new Dark Sun), I'd have to say that if any of the "Dark Sun in Seven Sentences" hadn't made it onto the list, that would probably have crossed my line. i don't think anything in my post badmouthed the setting in anyway... i just asked a question... on a side note... do you have a link to "Dark Sun in Seven Sentences"? i have not seen that...
#9 ascottbay Jun 25, 2010 0:43:55	Same with reading. We never showed it in the cities. But we had mages, so less strict laws about reading won't kill me. In one of the old Dark Sun supplements (or maybe the boxed set itself) it gets around this by pointing out that "spellbooks" can be made in things that aren't written; knot patterns on a decorative rope, patterns in jewelry, and I'm sure there were more examples; tattoos? I think that similar ideas were presented in a 4E book or article for primal classes and their ritual "books." The lists of "what makes this Dark Sun" given in an article (requires subscription) we got, the intro to Bloodsand Arena, and the primer for D&D Encounters, really seems to get the core of Dark Sun across, for me.
#10 Pennarin Jun 25, 2010 1:01:18	Didn't an article somewhere mention alternatives to spellbooks? Some people will gladly remove psionics from the setting (having stated they liked everything else), and I have never understood this way of thinking. Perhaps when psionics were broken I could have understood, but it no longer is.
#11 homicidal_squirrel Jun 25, 2010 1:04:15	When you are talking small changes that's an unanswerable question.  I doubt anyone can really say "If they change 10 things that's okay, but if they change 11, then they've gone too far". Personally, I don't think its a problem unless they change the major conceits of the setting,  pretty much the things Xlorep said along with the same major NPCs and settings.   The smaller details don't become a problem until they add up to changing something big. didn't mean to skip over your post... for some reason i am having trouble with the multi-quote... so i have 3 posts in response instead of one...i'm annoyed... i completely agree with you that smaller details don't become a problem until they add up and change something big... i'm jus curiouds what others think those small changes are and how many of them would have to happen in order for something big to change... i think most of the complaints made so far are trivial... a thri-kreen riding a kank not a big deal... on some other post it was suggested that there could be undead gnome cities somewhere... i kind of like that idea... even though i hate gnomes... in any setting... not a fan of them... but undead gnomes seem interesting...
#12 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 25, 2010 9:35:40	No sea of silt, it is now water. Races are all as they would be found in vanilla PHB's. No SK's, no city-states. Multiple nations with vast territories. No more psionics. The setting now has real gods, clerics, etc. No races eradicated. Defiling doesn't exist. that's quite a numbers of changes... how about changes in smaller increments? what is the minimum amount of changes that would have to be made in order for DS to lose the DS feel? I gave you the minimum for me. Basically, it has to lose all of its unique qualities.
#13 FlashbackJon Jun 25, 2010 9:48:49	i don't think anything in my post badmouthed the setting in anyway... i just asked a question... Like I said, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.  A lot of posting in this forum recently has been "zomg they changed two lines of fluff text in a random supplement - THIS IS NOT THE DARK SUN I KNEW" (see also: the aforementioned "Thri-kreen riding a Kank" thread).  I was just checking. on a side note... do you have a link to "Dark Sun in Seven Sentences"? i have not seen that... It's here (requires DDI) and also listed in both the Free RPG Day Dark Sun module and the intro to the D&D Encounter module. EDIT:  Also in the forum sticky here.
#14 zylo_drizzt Jun 25, 2010 10:04:04	someone mentioned the 7 sentences and I was thinking, was there anything they left out of those 7 sentences that changes ds to something diffrent? me I think they covered it all pretty well. What if they left out one sentence, would it change significantly?
#15 Duke5150 Jun 25, 2010 10:20:57	No sea of silt, it is now water. Races are all as they would be found in vanilla PHB's. No SK's, no city-states. No more psionics. The setting now has real gods, Defiling doesn't exist. I edited out a few things that wouldn't bug me much, but if any of the above were true, even one of the above, I would be very unhappy, simply because of the amount of homebrew I'd have to do.
#16 homicidal_squirrel Jun 25, 2010 10:53:59	Like I said, I gave you the benefit of the doubt.  A lot of posting in this forum recently has been "zomg they changed two lines of fluff text in a random supplement - THIS IS NOT THE DARK SUN I KNEW" (see also: the aforementioned "Thri-kreen riding a Kank" thread).  I was just checking. can't really say that... haven't seen the DSCG... i like to wait till i see a finished product. i mean... unless i hear about a thri-kreen riding a gnome... then i'm just done... It's here (requires DDI) and also listed in both the Free RPG Day Dark Sun module and the intro to the D&D Encounter module. EDIT:  Also in the forum sticky here. awesome...
#17 big_goon Jun 25, 2010 13:45:09	The 7 sentences helps describe the world, but I never thought they went far enough, and barely miss some of the central themes of Dark Sun. I'd change some of the sentences slightly. Anyways, here are my comments on the sentences... and what I'd change them to better describe the look and feel of my Dark Sun... if the new setting doesn't do these sentences justice, I'll be a little disapointed and have to make changes myself: The world is a desert: This doesn't really describe the world very well... because my first thought is the Middle East or Al'Quaddim. Athas isn't a "real-world" desert... most of it is un-arable, lifeless, hot, arid, resourceless, barren, yes... but it is also MORE than that. What about the sea of silt? The Verdant Crescent? The Ivory Plains? Everyday life is a fight against the environment and climate whether it's desert or not. I'd change this sentence to: The world is struggling to survive. Something about the plants being dangerous would be nice. The world is savage: Another good sentence that emphasizes the brutal and primative way of life. It would be nice if they mentioned that the societies are polarized to the extreme: nobles and merchants live in luxury while slaves are sold like cattle. I'd rather use The world is in a Dark Age... but some people might not understand. Arcane magic defiles the world: Pretty self explanitory, except that most people don't know what "defiling" is! I'd really rather say The world is dying or Arcane magic is destroying the world or Arcane magic has brought the world to the brink of death... but its a little long. Terrible sorcerer-kings rule the cities. Again, pretty self explanitory. The people in power are evil tyrants. The Dragon is bad ass... and there's only one... and when you meet him, you run! Don't think, just run. I'd use Evil sorcerer-kings rule the city-states... but whatever. The gods of Athas are silent. The aforementioned "terrible sorcerer-kings" are all you got. The good guys are dead/exiled/etc. This is an excellent sentence that separates Athas from the rest, but does nothing to describe the world. Fierce and deadly monsters populate the world. I don't get the point of this sentence? When have there every been "nice and cuddly" monsters? Even Kobolds and Goblins are pretty mean. Anyways... it kind of goes hand in hand with the terrible sorcerer-kings and the following theme on not being "high fantasy"... but I would rather a sentence that describes Psionics, the Dragon or the mutated creatures that roam the wastes desperately hungry for a morsel of flesh. Mutated horrors prowl the wastelands between the city states would be okay...  Familiar races aren’t what you expect: If you expected high fantasy, you expected wrong! Some of the races hate each other. A little touch of cannibalism, a dab of vengence, and a strong serving of xenophobia.
#18 Nyarlathotep Jun 25, 2010 14:18:35	The world is a desert: This doesn't really describe the world very well... because my first thought is the Middle East or Al'Quaddim. Athas isn't a "real-world" desert... most of it is un-arable, lifeless, hot, arid, resourceless, barren, yes... but it is also MORE than that. What about the sea of silt? The Verdant Crescent? The Ivory Plains? Everyday life is a fight against the environment and climate whether it's desert or not. I'd change this sentence to: The world is struggling to survive. Something about the plants being dangerous would be nice. That's a good point when I think about it.  It IS a bit too vague.  Nevada is a desert, The Sahara is a desert, The dry valleys of Antarctica are deserts.  No one is going to mistake any of those places for the other.
#19 FlashbackJon Jun 25, 2010 14:29:49	Fierce and deadly monsters populate the world. I don't get the point of this sentence? When have there every been "nice and cuddly" monsters? Even Kobolds and Goblins are pretty mean. The point is not that the monsters here are fierce and deadly, but that they literally populate all the world.  This is the first official setting for D&D4 in which travel between cities or within the boundaries of civilization is not mostly safe.  They clarify this in the article itself.  In Abeir-Toril or Khorvaire, I can say "oh, well, we travel between X and Y, we fight some goblins" but on Athas, any time I leave the city gates, I am taking my life into my hands. That specific instance aside, I'm actually not sure what you're commenting on.  Each of the sentences is followed by a paragraph of text that pretty clearly explains the intent of the sentence, which seem to cover all your objections? That's a good point when I think about it.  It IS a bit too vague.  Nevada is a desert, The Sahara is a desert, The dry valleys of Antarctica are deserts.  No one is going to mistake any of those places for the other. Nor should one mistake any one area of Athas for another.  It's not vague, it's thematic.  In fact, Alphastream's blog just recently covered this topic very well.
#20 big_goon Jun 25, 2010 15:40:58	The point is not that the monsters here are fierce and deadly, but that they literally populate all the world.  This is the first official setting for D&D4 in which travel between cities or within the boundaries of civilization is not mostly safe.  They clarify this in the article itself.  In Abeir-Toril or Khorvaire, I can say "oh, well, we travel between X and Y, we fight some goblins" but on Athas, any time I leave the city gates, I am taking my life into my hands. I completely agree with you. That's what the paragraph *should* be about. If it was... sorry, I completely missed that point. WotC could have made it a LOT clearer. I seriously thought the paragraph explaining the sentence this was about draft animals. So... I wrote to emphasize the "wastes are dangerous" theme, and that I expect that. I know they are "trying" to do that in the coming setting... I expect it to be in the setting. If they do a bad job, I will be dispointed. That specific instance aside, I'm actually not sure what you're commenting on.  Each of the sentences is followed by a paragraph of text that pretty clearly explains the intent of the sentence, which seem to cover all your objections?
#21 silverbullet5774 Jun 25, 2010 15:54:48	My feelings: 1. Cleansed beings must not be brought back without very good reason. 2. Their must be sorceror kings and the Dragon. 3. Athas must be more about survival than anything else. 4. The map must not change too drastically.
#22 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jun 25, 2010 18:50:58	I could care less what changes are made.  Since to me they wont be changes at all since I disliked the original setting so did not spend a lot of time reading everything there is to read about it..  I am actually interested in this setting coming out. I am worried about coming to this forum trying to find useful bits of info when I am presented with the elitist grognards and their "they ruined the world" attitudes.
#23 silverbullet5774 Jun 25, 2010 19:06:00	I could care less what changes are made.  Since to me they wont be changes at all since I disliked the original setting so did not spend a lot of time reading everything there is to read about it..  I am actually interested in this setting coming out. I am worried about coming to this forum trying to find useful bits of info when I am presented with the elitist grognards and their "they ruined the world" attitudes.  If you disliked the original setting im not really understanding why you think you should start playing it now.
#24 ascottbay Jun 25, 2010 20:04:06	Overall I think 4e Dark Sun will be palatable to a wider audience (while trying not to alienate the existing fans). I hate JJ Abrams (or more accurately, most of his work), but he managed to pull it off with Star Trek. And I was absolutely terrified that he would screw everything up. So I'm going to dare to be optimistic about Dark Sun. It's also going to be mechanically compatible with the rest of D&D, whereas a lot of the "Athas is cut off from the rest of the multiverse" lore seemed to be justification for not porting a comparatively powerful Athasian PC to a setting with a different power scale. The developers have said they're trying not to make huge lists of "this doesn't belong on Athas" - instead opting for "make some changes and this could possibly work in Dark Sun." As amusing as the explanations for Inappropriate Character Kits was in 2e I was still left thinking, "why would anyone who had these sourcebooks pick up Dark Sun?" In a similar vein, anyone who absolutely loves deity-centric campaigns and has players who like using things from Divine Power might not want to play 4E Dark Sun unless they're looking for a (drastic) change. That said, I don't think there are quite so many "elitist grognards" here, but they might have the tendency to use CAPS and emotes, which is the Internet equivalent of being loud. Most disagreement has been along the lines of, "I would have preferred the old ways, but I'll just change it back in my personal games."
#25 Pennarin Jun 25, 2010 21:21:06	That said, I don't think there are quite so many "elitist grognards" here I for one welcome the opportunity for a now looser Dark Sun, one in which you can actually change stuff without getting bashed over the head by the community.
#26 greyorm Jun 26, 2010 17:50:21	I am worried about coming to this  forum trying to find useful bits of info when I am presented with the  elitist grognards and their "they ruined the world"  attitudes.  I'm an elitist setting grognard, and I hate that  "ruined the setting" attitude myself, and always have*. I wasn't a big  fan of a whole lot of the material some folks take as setting gospel, like the "Cleansed races"  thing mentioned earlier -- I'm not a fan of that whole Rajaat plotline  (I'm praying it won't be incorporated into the rebooted setting). I  think you can change almost anything about the setting as long as you  have: "post-apocalyptic desert wasteland ruled by tyrannical god-kings  little better than the mutated monsters they hold back from the walls of  their city-states, where water is money and magic turns living things  to ash." That's the core 'feel' right there, with varying levels of specific detail fleshing it out. * Heck, I defended the Pazio version of the setting because at least someone was doing something DIFFERENT with it instead of being all fanboi nerd-rage "The preciousssss must not be touched!"
#27 FlashbackJon Jun 27, 2010 1:14:47	at least someone was doing something DIFFERENT with it instead of being all fanboi nerd-rage "The preciousssss must not be touched!" Amen.   When I was a young man, I thought "Change is bad.  It was better the first time!"  As I grew older, and arguably wiser, I learned to appreciate the reinvention of things I loved (see also: NWoD, X-Men movies, H2G2), and realized that was a much happier place to be.  No property is inviolate, and we too often view that which is grotesquely flawed through rose-colored lenses.  We can love something we knew long ago and still love the radically different thing it has become by the hand of someone else.  The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.  :D
#28 keldar Jun 27, 2010 2:20:26	I don't think it is possible for 4E Dark Sun to change so much that it isn't Dark Sun to me.  Dark Sun was always about themes for me, not lore.  (That was what FR was for. ;))  As long as Athas is a world where evil won and life is sliding toward extinction, it is DS to me.  Heck, the Prisim Pentad and the Revised boxed set moved away from the core themes more than 4E DS sounds like it is going to be.  Sorcerer Kings being killed off in novels, rain falling, and worst of all the Death of the Dragon were moves away from the core ideas of the setting, something that should be left to those at the table, dagnabit!  I may even be a real grognard about things and leave Kalak alive, so that my PCs can be the only heroes around, and to have a triple Dragon show down.  Muahaha ha hahaheh *kaff kaff*  Ahem. As to material from core that people object to, such as the maligned gnomes, I hope they simply don't mention them.  Leave it up to the individual DMs to work them in instead of barring or wedging them into the setting.