There are no right or wrong answers here, I'm simply polling opinions. The funny thing about arcane defiling and preserving, is that while I am certainly not without my criticisms and concerns for 4e Dark Sun (I posted a thread asking why halflings lack a racial language), I actually think Rich Baker did a fine job with defiling and preserving. The rules were never that great for preserving and defiling in 2e, honestly. As preserver and defiler were character classes, it made it more or less impossible for player characters to just decide to defile or not, as Sadira often had to decide in the Dark Sun novels by Troy Denning.
At least in 4e, there is a mechanical incentive, however small, to defile. I just think it's interesting that the original incarnation of Dark Sun over a decade ago did not give clear guidelines on how much plant life is needed to fuel a spell, only how much is destroyed when you defile. Of course, you could infer that the amount of plant life needed is equal to what the defiling radius would be if you defiled, but that would mean that arcane classes would be powerless except when camping in a jungle or oasis, and nobody would play them.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Here's a question that was never really directly addressed in 2nd edition Dark Sun. Of course, DMs were able to answer it themselves using common sense, and that has not changed with 4th edition. I'm only posting this because I'm curious what everybody's answer will be. When can you simply not use arcane magic at all? How much plant life would you expect to need in order to cast a daily spell? What about encounters and at-wills? Are they too minor to need plant life at all? Could an arcane class cast them even in defiled land or the obsidian flats/Dead Land, or do they count as a sort of "dead magic zone" ?
There are no right or wrong answers here, I'm simply polling opinions. The funny thing about arcane defiling and preserving, is that while I am certainly not without my criticisms and concerns for 4e Dark Sun (I posted a thread asking why halflings lack a racial language), I actually think Rich Baker did a fine job with defiling and preserving. The rules were never that great for preserving and defiling in 2e, honestly. As preserver and defiler were character classes, it made it more or less impossible for player characters to just decide to defile or not, as Sadira often had to decide in the Dark Sun novels by Troy Denning.
At least in 4e, there is a mechanical incentive, however small, to defile. I just think it's interesting that the original incarnation of Dark Sun over a decade ago did not give clear guidelines on how much plant life is needed to fuel a spell, only how much is destroyed when you defile. Of course, you could infer that the amount of plant life needed is equal to what the defiling radius would be if you defiled, but that would mean that arcane classes would be powerless except when camping in a jungle or oasis, and nobody would play them.Thoughts? Opinions?
Well, we ought to ask what constitutes "life", but that would likely devolve into a long flow of theological and philosophical views on what "life" would be [even if we were talking about it from a gaming perspective], so here's my perspective (while trying to filter out as much philosophical/theoretical stuff as possible): in the 4e Dark Sun, even though it refers specifically to plants as the source of arcane power, two things have to be mentioned: the lack of plants in the world, and the fact that arcane defiling can create defiled terrain, not just kill off plants. So I'm thinking that arcane magic draws from the life force found in almost every corner of Athas except unlike Primal characters -- who ask help from spirits, who then grant their power to them -- the arcane characters siphon directly from the life force instead of gaining power from intervening spirits, and thus risking defiling each time they draw too much energy too fast.
Now, interesting part of defiled terrain, as found in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog, is that there's this one particular type of defiled terrain -- Dead Magic -- that essentially says that the area was so defiled no arcane or primal character could draw any power from there... but even then, they could still use their powers.
One more question then, if I may. If "dead magic" defiled terrain makes it impossible to draw any power from there, but they could still use their powers, what is the mechanical implication of not being able to draw power? Is it talking about rituals? Because not being able to defile would not affect a primal character.
Also, the books said there are inexhaustible sources of energy that arcane spellcasters may draw upon, ie the sun, shadow (the Black), etc. If PC characters are the exceptions, then it is entirely possible that an arcane PC can be a sun/moon wizard or shadowcaster, etc.
Just thought I'd chime in and add my 2 quid on the matter.
That's a good point, though, that defilers can and have defiled even in areas like sandy wastes where there's bound to be some life, which tells us that only the tiniest amount is needed, even if it's just lichens in the soil. I do, however, think that arcane and primal powers should be greatly impaired or disabled when attempted while actually standing in utterly defiled land. There should be consequences for killing the land that are greater than "it doesn't make as good of a landscape painting anymore", which many more numbers-focused players will not care about.
Of course, travelers who are constantly on the go, like Athasian elves, will often defile without caring about the consequences, because the area of defiled land that makes magic fail will be many miles behind them tomorrow.
Although the option to be a defiler or templar is always open to players, the old setting tended to portray them as the villains and found more often among NPCs/monsters than players, and it looks like that trend may continue in 4e. Most players would rather root for hope for the land's survival than to root for its utter annihilation. 2e had some artifacts that were strongly aligned with primal magic, or defiler magic. The defiler artifacts can be a great temptation for players to resist, while primal artifacts may be a beacon of hope in an otherwise hopeless struggle against a SK, or some other BBEG. ^^
2e DS had said several times that Sadira becoming a sun wizard was a one-time deal, a sort of DM fiat if you will, from the Pristine Tower, and it can't be repeated. Doesn't mean it couldn't be repeated in 4e, but Athas being Athas, I would be much more interested in making life difficult for arcane classes than giving them multiple options for unrestricted access to power.
I know. But still, seeking a new power source for arcane magic would be a great adventure hook. Enter the Pristine Tower. :D
And 4E Dark SUn is set before Sadira even heard of the Pristine Tower, making it fair game for anyone to become the first sun wizard. ;)
That's a good point, though, that defilers can and have defiled even in areas like sandy wastes where there's bound to be some life, which tells us that only the tiniest amount is needed, even if it's just lichens in the soil. I do, however, think that arcane and primal powers should be greatly impaired or disabled when attempted while actually standing in utterly defiled land. There should be consequences for killing the land that are greater than "it doesn't make as good of a landscape painting anymore", which many more numbers-focused players will not care about.
I agree. This is the one thing about 4e Dark Sun that bothers me.
I do, however, think that arcane and primal powers should be greatly impaired or disabled when attempted while actually standing in utterly defiled land. There should be consequences for killing the land that are greater than "it doesn't make as good of a landscape painting anymore", which many more numbers-focused players will not care about.
I think I could help with this: the defiled terrain in 4e isn't just a pretty black tile on the board that says "defiled terrain here"; there are four types of defiled terrain available, and the Dead Magic defiled terrain -- the one primarily being discussed, given the concept of draining so much life, absolutely nothing remains -- has the following mechanical penalty: all Arcane and Primal powers suffer a -5 to attack rolls while the creature is on Dead Magic terrain, and the Arcane Defiling at-will cannot be used while on this terrain.
A -5 to all attack rolls for Arcane/Primal characters while in defiled terrain, is bad enough, but if the DM decides to combine Dead Magic defiled terrain with the defiled terrain that weakens creatures that start their turn there that lasts until the end of their next turn... yeah, that kinda tells you that defiled terrain can screw you big time as an arcane or primal character...
I myself am curious about the possibility of defiling with rituals if only for purely flavor reasons....you would gain no mechanical benefit from it, but in the books, many people who were only taught defiling magic don't know how to not defile, or they can preserve, but find it very difficult to do so, with defiling being like an addiction to a harmful drug. So, a character who regularly defiles in combat might suddenly find that his rituals are creating defiled terrain as well, although he gains no reward for it.
DMs could also rule that arcana or nature rituals won't work in Dead Magic defiled terrain, but that would hardly be an issue since a ritual assumes you have enough time to move around to an ideal place. That could still have some merit in the Dead Land/Obsidian Flats where there's miles and miles of lifeless deathy goodness.I myself am curious about the possibility of defiling with rituals if only for purely flavor reasons....you would gain no mechanical benefit from it, but in the books, many people who were only taught defiling magic don't know how to not defile, or they can preserve, but find it very difficult to do so, with defiling being like an addiction to a harmful drug. So, a character who regularly defiles in combat might suddenly find that his rituals are creating defiled terrain as well, although he gains no reward for it.
Given that the very concept of rituals would be for spells so complex they couldn't be committed to memory -- thus, have mechanics very different from previous editions -- you can approach it from two angles:
1. Some or all Arcane rituals would inherently defile due to the effects of arcana in the world, or
2. Choosing to defile when casting Arcane rituals [available only when the caster of the ritual is trained in Arcana] would provide a (minor) mechanical benefit -- likely reducing or removing the component cost (maybe -125gp/caster level at heroic tier, -250gp/level at paragon tier, and -500gp/level at epic tier), although reduction in time to cast could be considered by the DM as well.
Either one is optional, as you could simply assume that due to the complexity and non-aggressive nature of such rituals, these rituals would generally have been created by preservers (because it's likely that, save for certain spells like Imprisonment, defilers would lack the patience to cast even 5-minute rituals or what not).
But if the defiler is, say, a member of the wizard class, he's not going to ignore his rituals just because they're not useful in combat. Defilers are survivors, and will not neglect advantages outside of combat. Their min/max philosophy of life will extend to rituals as well.