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how powerful was Kalak of Tyr?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
razdorlibratum
Aug 06, 2012 19:01:36 The dead socceror king of Tyr, how powerful would he have been? i have an idea for a campaign and was looking for some input.
#2
OneWeirdCat
Aug 06, 2012 20:26:09 He was at least equal to the other sorcerer kings, less than Dregoth, but more powerful than others. Challenge level Epic, but he was trying to speed up his change into a dragon with his obsidian spheres n his pyramid. To have the best idea, see the 1st edition of Dark Sun campaign, which is a good resource to have, n probably not to expensive if you watch eBay for a bit. Another good idea would be to read the 1st novel of the Prism Pentad, which the name of which escapes me at the moment, again, available on eBay or amazon marketplace. Hope that points you in the right direction.
#3
razdorlibratum
Aug 06, 2012 20:29:59
He was at least equal to the other sorcerer kings, less than Dregoth, but more powerful than others. Challenge level Epic, but he was trying to speed up his change into a dragon with his obsidian spheres n his pyramid. To have the best idea, see the 1st edition of Dark Sun campaign, which is a good resource to have, n probably not to expensive if you watch eBay for a bit. Another good idea would be to read the 1st novel of the Prism Pentad, which the name of which escapes me at the moment, again, available on eBay or amazon marketplace. Hope that points you in the right direction.

thanks man, all i have right now is the 4e darksun and there is little to no information on him in that one
#4
OneWeirdCat
Aug 06, 2012 20:38:30 Well, the 1stedition kills him off fast, but there is more info in it than nothing in the 4 E.
#5
Pils_the_King
Aug 08, 2012 16:42:42 I handle the 4E very differently than the previous editions : I think by their first level, the PCs are already mighty heroes, and the adventures should reflect this power.

In our campaign, we play when Kalak is always alive, and his death will be the climatic conclusion of the first tier (inspired by the Prism Pentad). Perhaps I made him weakened by the heartwood spear, Rikus & co, or another stratagem, but my PCs would gain their level 11 by defeating him.
#6
OneWeirdCat
Aug 08, 2012 16:56:24 Well, in 2E the pcs start off of at 3rd level. In 4E, they need less toughing up beforehand. if you took Freedom (a 2E adventure) as a model for inspiration, bumped it up a few levels of difficulty, perhaps had the pcs adventure some before being press ganged into working in the brickyards, than you have a pretty good model to have the pcs be in on bumping off Kalak. Thru DDI you have the heartwood spear stated out, so that is a good resource.
#7
DontEatRawHagis
Aug 08, 2012 23:16:31 If you go by the original 2E books for Dark Sun, Kalak was around lvl 21 I think. In 4e I would put him at around low 20. Probably High Paragon.

The Fluff about him though from the book puts him as a crazy old man that cares for nothing, but blood shed. He gets his Templars to do most of his dirty work while he sits in his secret rooms learning about ancient dragon magic. He could easily kill his templars one on one, but it took the combined power of several heroes and a magical artifact to actually kill him.

In my 2E book all the heroes that are NPC'fied are around level 20 or higher.
#8
squidfur
Aug 09, 2012 18:34:38 Kalak was considered a 21st level dragon, by 2e standards. To become such, the prerequisite was being a dual-class 20th lvl defiler (wizard) AND 20th lvl psionicist. Then the 21st level of dragon could be taken. The metamorphosis he attempted would have jumped him from 21st all the way to being a 30th level dragon, but alas, he was foiled in this attempt. (To note, City-State of Tyr stats him at 25th level defiler/psionicist, but this somewhat contradicts the dragon metamorphosis rules)

By 3e conversion rules, dual/multi-classing is handled a bit differently. You take your highest class level (20) and a third of any other classes (rounded down, min. 1 - so, 1/3 of 20 and 1 would be 6 and 1). So, Kalak, in 3e, would be lvl 27.

BTW, athas.org gives 3.5 rules for creating athasian dragons (found in Legends of Athas).

For 4e, I think I'd just stat him out at a similar power level as the weakest of the SKs...so, 22ish level controller (not sure on elite or solo).
#9
Palladinae
Aug 16, 2012 3:01:18 Hi!
Strange coincidence, as I have recently thought about Kalak and his power in cimparision to other sorcerer-kings. Contrary to OneWeirdCat, I consider him the weakest of all rulers. Why?

It has been stated in Dragon Kings accessory that Kalak wanted to jump from 21-st level Dragon right to 30th. Moreover, he was building ziggurat to fuel his "Defiler metamorphosis" spell. Such component is needed to transform one from 20th levevl defiler/ 20th level psionicst into 21st level Dragon. It means Kalak barely acheived that state, accumulating enough power and knowldge and resources to become Dragon. It puts him about about 17 000 years behind the weakest of Dragons (Tectuttitlay?).

If Kalak wasn't Dragon, how he granted spells to his templars? He could use Sacha and Wyan but if so, why they not helped Tithian? They could rule through him as tye True kings of Tyr. There is possibility that he was transformed into elemental conduit by Dark Lenses and achieved Dragonhood later. It would prove tithian scheme was right.

So, apart from game material (which is a little contradictionary), he was the weakest of all Sorcerer-Kings, at least in my view of facts.
#10
squidfur
Aug 16, 2012 21:07:51
Moreover, he was building ziggurat to fuel his "Defiler metamorphosis" spell. Such component is needed to transform one from 20th levevl defiler/ 20th level psionicst into 21st level Dragon. It means Kalak barely acheived that state, accumulating enough power and knowldge and resources to become Dragon. It puts him about about 17 000 years behind the weakest of Dragons (Tectuttitlay?).

Actually, the stone structure (ie. Kalak's ziggurat) would not be needed until his advancement to becoming a 24th level dragon. Earlier stages only require a structure big enough for the metamorphosis to occur and for it to cost 50K gps. Kalak's being a low-level dragon was never really the question. His status as a Champion is, however.

Hamanu makes claims that Kalak was never a Champion of Rajaat, in the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. There are canononical errors made throughout the novel, damaging this theory's credibility. Despite this, I feel like this explanation gives uniqueness to the character - which I like - as well as helps explain why he was killed so easily (amongst other things).

If Kalak wasn't Dragon, how he granted spells to his templars? He could use Sacha and Wyan but if so, why they not helped Tithian? They could rule through him as tye True kings of Tyr.

Kalak was a Dragon.
The power to grant spells to templars comes, not from his being/not being a dragon, but from having a connection with an elemental vortex. Now, Dragon Kings does state that this connection came about because of the dragon metamorphosis magic used. This has been argued, later on however, to be in connection to their being Champions.
So, we've got a couple different options.

1) Kalak was a dragon/Champion with an elemental vortex. Thus, he granted his templars spells. This is the version assumed by most material.
2) Kalak was a dragon but not a Champion. He still attracted an elemental vortex through his dragon metamorphosis. He still grants his templars spells.
3) Kalak was a dragon but not a Champion. He did not attract an elemental vortex, so cannot grant spells to his templars.

If the 3rd option is taken, there are some further options. I tend to go with the idea that Sacha and/or Wyan provided the templarate with spells. The reason they would not help Tithian is quite simple, actually. In my mind, using this weakness would be a prime opportunity for the pair to manipulate Tithian into freeing their master, Rajaat (a goal which both strived for).
#11
syrric
Oct 04, 2012 15:49:23 rise and fall of the dragon king has never been considered cannon because lynn abbey made mistakes like saying he wasnt a champion. your best reference is in the 2nd ed boxed set, the book called cronicles of athas states he was a champion and even says that he finished killing the orgres and how long it took him.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 razdorlibratum Aug 06, 2012 19:01:36	The dead socceror king of Tyr, how powerful would he have been? i have an idea for a campaign and was looking for some input.
#2 OneWeirdCat Aug 06, 2012 20:26:09	He was at least equal to the other sorcerer kings, less than Dregoth, but more powerful than others. Challenge level Epic, but he was trying to speed up his change into a dragon with his obsidian spheres n his pyramid. To have the best idea, see the 1st edition of Dark Sun campaign, which is a good resource to have, n probably not to expensive if you watch eBay for a bit. Another good idea would be to read the 1st novel of the Prism Pentad, which the name of which escapes me at the moment, again, available on eBay or amazon marketplace. Hope that points you in the right direction.
#3 razdorlibratum Aug 06, 2012 20:29:59	He was at least equal to the other sorcerer kings, less than Dregoth, but more powerful than others. Challenge level Epic, but he was trying to speed up his change into a dragon with his obsidian spheres n his pyramid. To have the best idea, see the 1st edition of Dark Sun campaign, which is a good resource to have, n probably not to expensive if you watch eBay for a bit. Another good idea would be to read the 1st novel of the Prism Pentad, which the name of which escapes me at the moment, again, available on eBay or amazon marketplace. Hope that points you in the right direction. thanks man, all i have right now is the 4e darksun and there is little to no information on him in that one
#4 OneWeirdCat Aug 06, 2012 20:38:30	Well, the 1stedition kills him off fast, but there is more info in it than nothing in the 4 E.
#5 Pils_the_King Aug 08, 2012 16:42:42	I handle the 4E very differently than the previous editions : I think by their first level, the PCs are already mighty heroes, and the adventures should reflect this power. In our campaign, we play when Kalak is always alive, and his death will be the climatic conclusion of the first tier (inspired by the Prism Pentad). Perhaps I made him weakened by the heartwood spear, Rikus & co, or another stratagem, but my PCs would gain their level 11 by defeating him.
#6 OneWeirdCat Aug 08, 2012 16:56:24	Well, in 2E the pcs start off of at 3rd level. In 4E, they need less toughing up beforehand. if you took Freedom (a 2E adventure) as a model for inspiration, bumped it up a few levels of difficulty, perhaps had the pcs adventure some before being press ganged into working in the brickyards, than you have a pretty good model to have the pcs be in on bumping off Kalak. Thru DDI you have the heartwood spear stated out, so that is a good resource.
#7 DontEatRawHagis Aug 08, 2012 23:16:31	If you go by the original 2E books for Dark Sun, Kalak was around lvl 21 I think. In 4e I would put him at around low 20. Probably High Paragon. The Fluff about him though from the book puts him as a crazy old man that cares for nothing, but blood shed. He gets his Templars to do most of his dirty work while he sits in his secret rooms learning about ancient dragon magic. He could easily kill his templars one on one, but it took the combined power of several heroes and a magical artifact to actually kill him. In my 2E book all the heroes that are NPC'fied are around level 20 or higher.
#8 squidfur Aug 09, 2012 18:34:38	Kalak was considered a 21st level dragon, by 2e standards. To become such, the prerequisite was being a dual-class 20th lvl defiler (wizard) AND 20th lvl psionicist. Then the 21st level of dragon could be taken. The metamorphosis he attempted would have jumped him from 21st all the way to being a 30th level dragon, but alas, he was foiled in this attempt. (To note, City-State of Tyr stats him at 25th level defiler/psionicist, but this somewhat contradicts the dragon metamorphosis rules) By 3e conversion rules, dual/multi-classing is handled a bit differently. You take your highest class level (20) and a third of any other classes (rounded down, min. 1 - so, 1/3 of 20 and 1 would be 6 and 1). So, Kalak, in 3e, would be lvl 27. BTW, athas.org gives 3.5 rules for creating athasian dragons (found in Legends of Athas). For 4e, I think I'd just stat him out at a similar power level as the weakest of the SKs...so, 22ish level controller (not sure on elite or solo).
#9 Palladinae Aug 16, 2012 3:01:18	Hi! Strange coincidence, as I have recently thought about Kalak and his power in cimparision to other sorcerer-kings. Contrary to OneWeirdCat, I consider him the weakest of all rulers. Why? It has been stated in Dragon Kings accessory that Kalak wanted to jump from 21-st level Dragon right to 30th. Moreover, he was building ziggurat to fuel his "Defiler metamorphosis" spell. Such component is needed to transform one from 20th levevl defiler/ 20th level psionicst into 21st level Dragon. It means Kalak barely acheived that state, accumulating enough power and knowldge and resources to become Dragon. It puts him about about 17 000 years behind the weakest of Dragons (Tectuttitlay?). If Kalak wasn't Dragon, how he granted spells to his templars? He could use Sacha and Wyan but if so, why they not helped Tithian? They could rule through him as tye True kings of Tyr. There is possibility that he was transformed into elemental conduit by Dark Lenses and achieved Dragonhood later. It would prove tithian scheme was right. So, apart from game material (which is a little contradictionary), he was the weakest of all Sorcerer-Kings, at least in my view of facts.
#10 squidfur Aug 16, 2012 21:07:51	Moreover, he was building ziggurat to fuel his "Defiler metamorphosis" spell. Such component is needed to transform one from 20th levevl defiler/ 20th level psionicst into 21st level Dragon. It means Kalak barely acheived that state, accumulating enough power and knowldge and resources to become Dragon. It puts him about about 17 000 years behind the weakest of Dragons (Tectuttitlay?). Actually, the stone structure (ie. Kalak's ziggurat) would not be needed until his advancement to becoming a 24th level dragon. Earlier stages only require a structure big enough for the metamorphosis to occur and for it to cost 50K gps. Kalak's being a low-level dragon was never really the question. His status as a Champion is, however. Hamanu makes claims that Kalak was never a Champion of Rajaat, in the novel Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. There are canononical errors made throughout the novel, damaging this theory's credibility. Despite this, I feel like this explanation gives uniqueness to the character - which I like - as well as helps explain why he was killed so easily (amongst other things). If Kalak wasn't Dragon, how he granted spells to his templars? He could use Sacha and Wyan but if so, why they not helped Tithian? They could rule through him as tye True kings of Tyr. Kalak was a Dragon. The power to grant spells to templars comes, not from his being/not being a dragon, but from having a connection with an elemental vortex. Now, Dragon Kings does state that this connection came about because of the dragon metamorphosis magic used. This has been argued, later on however, to be in connection to their being Champions. So, we've got a couple different options. 1) Kalak was a dragon/Champion with an elemental vortex. Thus, he granted his templars spells. This is the version assumed by most material. 2) Kalak was a dragon but not a Champion. He still attracted an elemental vortex through his dragon metamorphosis. He still grants his templars spells. 3) Kalak was a dragon but not a Champion. He did not attract an elemental vortex, so cannot grant spells to his templars. If the 3rd option is taken, there are some further options. I tend to go with the idea that Sacha and/or Wyan provided the templarate with spells. The reason they would not help Tithian is quite simple, actually. In my mind, using this weakness would be a prime opportunity for the pair to manipulate Tithian into freeing their master, Rajaat (a goal which both strived for).
#11 syrric Oct 04, 2012 15:49:23	rise and fall of the dragon king has never been considered cannon because lynn abbey made mistakes like saying he wasnt a champion. your best reference is in the 2nd ed boxed set, the book called cronicles of athas states he was a champion and even says that he finished killing the orgres and how long it took him.