I do understand that you could use religion for "non-divine" based religion (e.g. non-magical religion related stuff). Also, you could use it for knowledge about demons and undead etc.
Still, it makes little sense to have certain rituals be based on religion.
Any ideas?
As it is, the Religion skill is more than knowledge about gods, it's about understanding local belief systems, and 'popular' mythos. So it is still relevant on Athas in that sense. But as religion generally matters less, so your average Athasian would be less knowledgeable on matters of religion. Correspondingly, characters probably don't take training in Religion as frequently as they may do in other campaign settings due to the milieu's godlessness, so Religion-based rituals become that little bit harder, and Religion-based skill checks that little bit tougher. All of which works with the flavour of the campaign.
If I run Dark Sun (may be running or playing GW instead, dunno), religion will probably be used to deal with and interpret the ceremonial pomp of different areas. Other knowledge skills might be able to figure out "templars of this city salute this way, shamans of that tribe sacrifice this type of creature" but religion would allow one to know the psychological reasons (the templar salute represents the Lion of Urik consuming the world, the shamans sacrifice elves because they can get to the underworld sooner and give the dead company to prevent them from asking us to visit). Course, other skills would present other reasons (arcana, the templar salute is a small defiling ritual that magically IDs the initated; nature, elf livers contain a key ingredient for a decent medicine).
Same thing in a sense for Religion-skill rituals. In my game there just aren't any. It's not a matter of "do I make them stronger since they're fewer" or "should I change the skill" no it doesn't matter. I'm pretty lenient about race and class combos but in my game no divine classes are allowed whatsoever. That carries on into rituals. If there's one out there it's buried way in the Endless Sand Dunes or deep in some tomb in the Ringing Mountains and it's probably only level 3 and you're somewhere in the paragon tier fighting through Gray shadows to get it
Or are people just unaware that the animism and/or pantheism practiced by Athasians (as elemental worship) are real forms of religious belief and would be covered under the skill in question? (As would the religions surrounding a number of the Socerer-Kings and Queens, regardless that they're *ahem* "made-up".)
I can see how any belief, including animism, might be covered by Religion but maybe by the same token one could say primal is covered by Nature as Arcane and Psionics are covered by Arcana? I dunno
Humanity has shown time and again that when the world changes, they'll take their religion with them, even if they have to change it to accomodate their new worldview.
I think that religion, arcana, and nature would all cover different aspects of knowledge. In the examples I gave earlier, the knowledge that elf liver juice makes a good medicine would be a higher DC than the religion check.
Let’s look at the problem logically 1st we Search the data base and fine only the Rituals below are Religion skill only
Create Holy Water, Iron Vigil, Hand of Fate, Discern Lies, Consult Mystic Sages, Hallowed Temple, Mark of Justice, Astral Guide, Consult Oracle, Succor, Divine Sight, Voice of Fate, Memory of a Thousand Deaths, Ancestral Whispers, Speak with Dead, Dark Gift of the Undying, Astral Sojourn, Adjure, Lore Master’s Bargain.
And only the one listed below fit the setting. Of those the following are necromantic in nature and should be kept as a religion check, a rare skill in the darksun setting.
Memory of a Thousand Deaths: You open yourself to the vestigial spirits bound to your deathcut armor and learn about necromancy within your immediate environs (within 1 mile of you).
Ancestral Whispers: You invite the spirit of an ancestor to inhabit your body for a time. Choose one skill in which you are not trained. For the ritual’s duration, you are considered trained in that skill.
Speak with Dead: You ask the corpse of an intelligent creature questions and receive answers.
Dark Gift of the Undying: This ritual can only be performed between sunset and sunrise.
These last three have been arcane in other editions of D & D and can be made so again.
Astral Sojourn: You must use this ritual in the world. When you perform this ritual, you transport yourself and up to eight allies to a random spot in the Astral Sea.
Adjure: You command an immortal creature whose level does not exceed yours.
Lore Master’s Bargain: Through painstaking research and preparation, you prepare a valuable offering for a powerful extraplanar entity such as an angel, a demigod, a demon, or a devil.
for any other rituall I would ignore the Religion version of the ritual as the power behind it does not exist.
- While many Templars are Arcane spell casters, much of their history, organizational practices and politics would better fall into the Religion skill. If you'd like to be a bureaucrat, politician, soldier, spy, etc... in the Templarate, it should be mandatory to be trained in the Religion skill to advance far.
- Many Monastic societies would have some degree of Religion attached to their practices - remember, many religions are also philosophies. If you'd like to be a Psionic class trained in a monastery, you should take the Religion skill.
- There are huge swaths of Undead (Dregoth and the Deadlands) that could house religious secrets. Ancient powers, rituals, spells, items... some fantastical knowledge is hidden there. Dray would be interested in their creator (undead).
- Many cults are centered around animals, beast, spirits and locations. That's not to mention the insane Cthulu-like cults that might emerge in the maddening wastes between the city-states. Anybody playing with or combating against these cults would do well to take some training in Religion, for the same reason as the Templarate. Many of the Thri-Kreen cults (especially those to the Great One) might require some Religion knowledge checks.
- Any check having to do with the Primordials would be dominated by Religion - cults, powers, classes, items... and the knowledge of the Primordials themselves. If you have alternative planes of existance in your campaign, like the Black, the Gray or the Primordial planes, you need Religion. Tiefling races might be interested in knowing about their ancestors (planar). If you dabble in Demonology, you might be interested in some Religion knowledge.
Astral Sojourn: You must use this ritual in the world. When you perform this ritual, you transport yourself and up to eight allies to a random spot in the Astral Sea.
Hrm...can't really think of a way to make this work Religion-wise. Though...if one considers the philosophy of the Way, and the various approaches to it, as a religion (rather like Buddhism or Taoism), then this works as a Religion-based ritual again. (Well, assuming psionicists visit the Astral Sea for things, and I would think they would.)
Create Holy Water, Iron Vigil, Hand of Fate, Discern Lies, Consult Mystic Sages, Hallowed Temple, Mark of Justice, Astral Guide, Consult Oracle, Succor, Divine Sight, Voice of Fate
It seems to me that a number, if not all, of these could work in the same way as the above--as expressions of the philosophy/religion of the Way. Some of them might not (I don't know what all of them do as I don't have the 4E books, just going on what they sound like).
Lore Master’s Bargain: Through painstaking research and preparation, you prepare a valuable offering for a powerful extraplanar entity such as an angel, a demigod, a demon, or a devil.
Wouldn't this work for elementals and primals, too? (So it could still be a Religion-skill ritual.) The same would be true of Adjure, and the concept would be of someone speaking to and commanding the spirits of the land (a druid-type thing or elemental priest-thing going on).
I think I like the flavour of it as is, that Dark Sun characters are somewhat less knowledgeable about religious matters -- due to religion simply not meaning less in their day to day lives -- and so in-game mechanics that rely on it becoming that little bit more difficult.
As it is, the Religion skill is more than knowledge about gods, it's about understanding local belief systems, and 'popular' mythos. So it is still relevant on Athas in that sense. But as religion generally matters less, so your average Athasian would be less knowledgeable on matters of religion. Correspondingly, characters probably don't take training in Religion as frequently as they may do in other campaign settings due to the milieu's godlessness, so Religion-based rituals become that little bit harder, and Religion-based skill checks that little bit tougher. All of which works with the flavour of the campaign.
Agreed, well said!
