See the thread title. I'm curious.
I would use the rules in the DMG, and have a long period of travel built in to the game...
I guess it depends upon the situation.
If you are emphasizing cross-country journeys, then a skill challenge might be the best bet. Endurance would of course be key, but you wouldn't want to make it the only skill. Most of the skills could be represented. Athletics and Endurance probably need no explanation. Nature and Perception would help the party find shade or water or help them avoid dangers. Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff, and Thievery could even play a part if the party encounters a caravan or slave tribe. Failures could result in loss of healing surges, being surprised by enemies, actual damage, etc.
Another way could be to reduce every character's healing surges by 1/3 (or more) to emphasize Athas' brutality.
You could also increase the number of rolling encounters. When the party defeats the slavers, they are attacked by wild creatures, which in turn push them into an area with carniverous plants, which is patrolled by another group of enemies that watch the area for loot they can scavenge from the plant's victims. Stringing several encounters together while denying the party the chance for an extended rest can make survival more challenging.
Just a few thoughts. Hope they help. Any other ideas?
Athas = Desert planet. Ergo - make water rare and expensive. I don't want to keep track of the weight in water everyone carries, but rather I want players to count the number of water rations they have available. If a character has no water, then they cannot regain healing surges from an extended rest. Sure, you can get powers back, but no new healing surges until you consume one ration of water.
Also, when traveling, I've invented a list of exotic storms that will inflict a variety of horrible effects on the party!
Scorcher - superheated sand and dust weather patterns that inflict fire damage.
Claw-wind - Tornadic winds that carry razor sharp stone debris - victims suffer vulnerable/2 to all damage until an extended rest. (Increase at Paragon and Epic tiers)
Venomstorm - storm carrying volcanic gas from lava-rifts that inflicts poison damage to most life-forms, - 2 penalty to fortitude defense until next extended rest.
Siltsurge - fine powdered dust from dead ocean basins, Silt gathers easily in the lungs and causes suffocation. Victims are weakened until next extended rest. +5 bonus to endurance checks if water is used to create a wet mask. (1 ration/day of water protects 4 people)
Sunpulse - erratic solar flare from the Dark Sun - exposed creatures suffer radiant damage and -5 to all Perception checks until next extended rest.
Thirststorm - storm system carrying salt minerals that cause severe dehydration (untyped damage) also ruining 1d4 days worth of carried water supplies.
Sparksand - An interaction between weather systems and rare minerals in the sand that causes lightning to travel from sky to ground. - Acrobatics to avoid severe lightning damage.
Rumbleclasm - Powerful Earthquakes which cause tidal waves of sand, stone, and wind from the shock. Thunder and Untyped damage. (Endurance to Resist)
Defiler Storm - A rare toxic reaction from widespread use of Defiler magic. A black cloud that rains noxious acid. Endurance check - acid damage, and half-hitpoints from healing surges until next extended rest.
Hellicane - A tremendous global storm system that absorbs many other storms. Severe fire and untyped damage, and victims are deafened until next extended rest.
Plus, the monsters.
Also, I've devised a random system to simulate encounters with swarms of parasitic, disease-causing insects. (Agony beetles, anyone?)
Oh, and the halflings want to eat you.
DemonwastesMarauder, those weather types are awesome, any chance you have any 3rd ed. notes regarding them?
Yes, quite interesting. They are like terrains (some of them actually are) that would affect not just select squares but all of the battlemap.
Those should be implemented.
Good ideas!
Hopefully this sort of thing is emphasized in the campaign setting book.
I loved using all of the lethal terrain types that cam out in Valley of Dust and Fire, then Sandstorm's (and Frostburn's) evil terrain.
It was a great way to make basic encounters harder for higher level characters.
I also always contrived some shortage of food and water to force players into hunting, raiding or bargaining.
It always seemed tough to put the players into that sort of situation where the environment was a real issue but it was worth it as it brought home the problems of survival in Athas.
Well, one thing is certain, they'll have to make special "Athasian" rules for going without food or water for Dark Sun Campaigns, because the current "rule of 3" of the DMG (which apparently supersedes the PHB endurance rules, according to official errata) doesn't work for Athas (or for other worlds, for that matter. Reduce that to a rule of 2, at most, I say, anyways...) That rule means characters can go without water for 3 whole days at NO penalty, and even then, they can still avoid penalties with good Endurance rolls. When they do get penalties, they lose 1 healing surge PER DAY, which means a first level character basically gets to go without water for over a week without dying, or getting any other penalty than not healing as quickly. This definatly doesn't work.
Clearly, basic 4e D&D just doesn't want to have players think or worry about food rations or water reserves. That concern must definately be there in a Dark Sun campaign. The harsh athasian environment would justify making an Athasian version of those rules, and would enhance (create) the survival feel of the setting.
Also, Nature checks to find water must use the base 20 DC for harsh environments, as per core rules, and some terrains should get even higher DCs (sandy wastes (25), salt flats (30), for example). Some might say that puts foraging in a salt flat impossible for 1st level characters. I would agree. ;)
I like the idea of treks through wilderness as skill challenges, with Endurance, Nature, Perception and Athletics or even Heal (treating sunburns, travel fatigue) or History checks (geography aspect, recognising landmarks). Failure could result in losing time, healing surges, or wandering into an encouter with some desert beasts, success yields XP, and of course, reaching where you want to go. Maybe each day could be a challenge too, so no Fast Forwarding a trip on foot from Tyr to Urik as something uneventful.
Also, very restrictive magic item economy. I wouldn't say non-existant exactly, but black market items would definately get that 40% markup the rules talk about. Also, skill challenge to even get to find a seller (or buyer, for that matter), with Streetwise, Perception, Bluff, Intimidate, Insight, Arcana, and History checks. The rest is items you find or enchant yourself, and those shouldn't be abundant either. (DMG 2 supposed to suggest other ways to reward players and not break character progression as per core rules.) That would make things a bit harder for PCs, but also make them treasure the items they find even more.
Finally, flavor wise, players should very rarely get the impression that they are safe. In fact, that feeling should almost be a reward in itself. When I describe Dark Sun to possible players, I usually tell them about the general setting, and then I go on to say how the wilderness is so harsh and dangerous, from the weather, the lack of sustenance and the wild, dangerous and horrible beasts that prowl the land, that players can't wait to reach a City-State. However, when they get to the City, they fall under the oppressive rule of an evil tyrant and his agetns, constantly watching out for cutpurses and cutthroats, hiding their goods from and avoiding the notice of corrupt and power hungry templars while trying to avoid getting sent to the slave pits or the arena, so much so that they hurry about their buisness there and can't wait to get back out!
Very often, survival isn't just an aspect of an adventure in Dark Sun. It IS the adventure!
Finally, flavor wise, players should very rarely get the impression that they are safe. In fact, that feeling should almost be a reward in itself. When I describe Dark Sun to possible players, I usually tell them about the general setting, and then I go on to say how the wilderness is so harsh and dangerous, from the weather, the lack of sustenance and the wild, dangerous and horrible beasts that prowl the land, that players can't wait to reach a City-State. However, when they get to the City, they fall under the oppressive rule of an evil tyrant and his agetns, constantly watching out for cutpurses and cutthroats, hiding their goods from and avoiding the notice of corrupt and power hungry templars while trying to avoid getting sent to the slave pits or the arena, so much so that they hurry about their buisness there and can't wait to get back out!
Very often, survival isn't just an aspect of an adventure in Dark Sun. It IS the adventure!
In general, I agree with your comments. It can always be argued about the Rule of 3 and how well it applies here or there. Certainly on Athas, it should be worse. And the big point of Athas was it's tough environment as well as the tough monsters. Other worlds had aspects of tough environments but obviously not as pervasive as Athas.
I assume you meant "players should arely get the impression that their characters are safe" instead of what you had. A small nitpick but an important one. I long ago gave up trying to scare or impress the players but did try to impress it on them about their characters.
Now, onto the reason I am writing. I, too, ran it that way back in the day when DS was first out. And my players hated that feeling. They wanted to make a difference but the game box back then said not to let them and who was I to argue with a designer? Further, the modules were about them being the lowest of the lowest slaves and having very few options. They didn't want to play in that and I can't say I blame them! What a terrible place to be and if it's not fun, why play in it? Unfortunately, because of this, I didn't get to use Dark Sun or explore it back then. I understand the sentiment you are saying but I think your description was taking it too far.
There should be times when the characters feel safe and it should happen often. Daily, even. It's when they go adventuring that they should wonder if they are crazy or not, braving the dangers of the desert for what? Is it worth it? Well, yes, as they keep surviving and getting treasure.
At some point, though, if how harsh things are is emphasized too much, I have had players retire their characters saying that adventuring was too dangerous and they now had enough money to survive, why keep risking their lives? But that was me and my group. YMMV.
Like many things, maybe it's a balance thing. They go adventuring, get some good coin and then have several weeks of downtime to enjoy it while they can.
That's probably just me.
turlough
Yes, quite interesting. They are like terrains (some of them actually are) that would affect not just select squares but all of the battlemap.
Those should be implemented.
Thanx, Another idea that occurred to me is to have characters make a 'Survival' check, a skill challenge to determine whether they can meet their water-food needs for the day. If they fail, they cannot recover healing surges from resting until they find a water source. Terrain could be a factor, and as characters advance in levels, they will get better at survival so that they make the check less frequently per tier. (They can go for one more extended rest without making the check) If PC's buy water from someone, or find an oasis, they'll get a bonus to the next survival check. That way, number tracking is much simpler, rather than keeping some running tally of supplies.
Turlough,
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think we see it the same way.
I agree that in traditional settings, adventurering is a dangerous lifestyle compared to mundane life, and that feeling of risk and reward is appropriate. While I am not saying this reality isn't true for Dark Sun, the thing is that not adventuring, while perhaps safer, is not safe either. If characters ( ;) ) think themselves free from danger for whole weeks while living in the harshest environment and the most oppressive dictatorships possible, clearly something is wrong. This becomes especially true if they actively seek to oppose such dictatorships and change their environment and societies.
Now, as to why they adventure. Well, first, as I've said, survival can be a motivation in itself, simply because where they are at any one time (either outside or inside a city) might become too dangerous for their lives. But generally, when I said survival was the adventure, I didn't mean the reason for why they adventure. I'll explain.
I like running epic campaign, with metaplots, if possible. It can hardly be more epic than Dark Sun. In Forgotten Realms, you can adventure for fame and glory, or perhaps to twart local monster or villain threats, but mostly you do so for the cold hard cash and magic items you'll get, allowing you to get even more powerful and get into bigger fights, and perhaps eventually oppose major villains and threats to whole nations. In Dark Sun, my players do that from day one.
I did run a couple adventure where my characters were free adventurers (one group were escaped slaves free to do as they wanted, and they basically became tomb raiders, another one was a small merchant house, with a big focus on economy). Those were fun, but the best ones are still those where the characters try to, basically, save the world. Did they do it? No, and I agree they probably shouldn't. However, they did prevent things from becoming worse and preserved Tyr's freedom from different threats. They saved lives and environments, and even got their hands on the Scorcher and prevented its capture by Hamanu's agents. They made a difference to those people they met on the adventure, and became involved in the much larger plot of athas's history and survival. And yes, they died too, but they died heroes.
Why do they adventure in Dark Sun? Because they actually ARE heroes. They are fighting to change the world. That is WHY they adventure.
Of course, you don't have to go about it that way, and Athas offers plenty of foes and ruins to keep adventurers with no "political agenda" going looking for long lost wealth and magic items to get them away from the horrible lives they once knew, but even then, the idea of perpetual danger is a good motivation for adventuring.
And one quick note on how I reinforce the idea that players make a difference: As often as possible, when we start another campaign, I try to have what my players did in the last campaign in that setting be part of the story and setting of the actual campaign. For example, if my players trashed a temple full of cultists, I try to have my players ride past it and see it burnt down, with a bit of a torn vestment one of the cultist (or player) wore down on the side of the road. For example, in Athas, they had saved a slave town (whose name I forget) from a nightmare beast (now that was an epic campaign, the one with the Scorcher). Now, in the next campaign, my players had to get to that village to take a Silk Skimmer. Well, the town had gotten the beast's skull cleaned and put it on the top of the town's hall, and inquiring players were told about their last characters' deeds from NPCs, which was both rewarding and kind of funny!
Anyways, that's how I run it, but to each his own.
Thanx, Another idea that occurred to me is to have characters make a 'Survival' check, a skill challenge to determine whether they can meet their water-food needs for the day. If they fail, they cannot recover healing surges from resting until they find a water source. Terrain could be a factor, and as characters advance in levels, they will get better at survival so that they make the check less frequently per tier. (They can go for one more extended rest without making the check) If PC's buy water from someone, or find an oasis, they'll get a bonus to the next survival check. That way, number tracking is much simpler, rather than keeping some running tally of supplies.
This is a great idea, but I'm only worried about the amount of rolling required. Each day: roll for a survival check. This can be cumbersome.
Is there a way to reduce the number of rolls required, while maintaining the "feel" of dark sun?
What about reducing the number of extended rests: You spend a day in the Athasian Wastes and lose a healing surge (no resistance). Fight some nasties, lose some more. Meet a defiler, lose some more. Uh oh... things are getting desperate. Find an oasis held by slave traders. Skill challenge to get to the spring and finally: you get an extended rest. No more extended rest whenever players want. Fail the skill challenge, and things go bad: the Halfling in the group eats the Elf.
Usually, the way I run it is not to tell them they can't take an extended rest if they want to. You shouldn't tell the players they can't just sit down behind a boulder and take a load off. Buuuuut... if they do just sit down, and the place isn't safe, then they get attacked before they can benefit from a full 6-hour rest, or the ceiling caves in on them, or someone accidentally triggers a poison arrow trap.... something bad will happen. I do tell them when it's safe to rest. They get encounters back, but no healing surges or dailies before they get ambushed by Silt-Runners, or slavers, or halflings wearing necklaces of human eyeballs. And the enemies get a surprise round.
The harshness of Dark Sun creates even juicier problems, because once you fail a Survival check... well, you've run out of water, and on these harsh, dry sands dehydration will begin quickly. What good is an extended rest if you're dying of thirst? None! (Well, you can get daily powers, but no replenished healing surges!) Probably, if the PC's find an oasis then they I may also award them an exemption from Survival for a while - depending on the size of the Oasis. Otherwise, in harsh terrain, (or I feel I must be especially mean,) finding water will just give them a bonus to survival. And once you fail the Survival skill challenge you can rest one more time, then you must find a new source of water before benefiting from a rest again.
Yes, quite interesting. They are like terrains (some of them actually are) that would affect not just select squares but all of the battlemap.
Those should be implemented.
Athas = Desert planet. Ergo - make water rare and expensive. I don't want to keep track of the weight in water everyone carries, but rather I want players to count the number of water rations they have available. If a character has no water, then they cannot regain healing surges from an extended rest. Sure, you can get powers back, but no new healing surges until you consume one ration of water.
Also, when traveling, I've invented a list of exotic storms that will inflict a variety of horrible effects on the party!
Scorcher - superheated sand and dust weather patterns that inflict fire damage.
Claw-wind - Tornadic winds that carry razor sharp stone debris - victims suffer vulnerable/2 to all damage until an extended rest. (Increase at Paragon and Epic tiers)
Venomstorm - storm carrying volcanic gas from lava-rifts that inflicts poison damage to most life-forms, - 2 penalty to fortitude defense until next extended rest.
Siltsurge - fine powdered dust from dead ocean basins, Silt gathers easily in the lungs and causes suffocation. Victims are weakened until next extended rest. +5 bonus to endurance checks if water is used to create a wet mask. (1 ration/day of water protects 4 people)
Sunpulse - erratic solar flare from the Dark Sun - exposed creatures suffer radiant damage and -5 to all Perception checks until next extended rest.
Thirststorm - storm system carrying salt minerals that cause severe dehydration (untyped damage) also ruining 1d4 days worth of carried water supplies.
Sparksand - An interaction between weather systems and rare minerals in the sand that causes lightning to travel from sky to ground. - Acrobatics to avoid severe lightning damage.
Rumbleclasm - Powerful Earthquakes which cause tidal waves of sand, stone, and wind from the shock. Thunder and Untyped damage. (Endurance to Resist)
Defiler Storm - A rare toxic reaction from widespread use of Defiler magic. A black cloud that rains noxious acid. Endurance check - acid damage, and half-hitpoints from healing surges until next extended rest.
Hellicane - A tremendous global storm system that absorbs many other storms. Severe fire and untyped damage, and victims are deafened until next extended rest.
Plus, the monsters.
Also, I've devised a random system to simulate encounters with swarms of parasitic, disease-causing insects. (Agony beetles, anyone?)
Oh, and the halflings want to eat you.
You should definately pitch an article revolving around these to wotC! Awesomeness
Daily survival should be something handled during Extended Rests. I dont think penalizing Healing Surges is enough of a penalty. Need something a little beefier, such as:
- When traveling outside a settlement (city, town or merchant camp at an oasis, they all have enough water), characters must consume one ration of water per day before taking an Extended Rest.
- If a ration is not consumed before an Extended Rest is taken, the character must roll a saving throw with no modifiers.
- Failure lowers the number of failed Death Saving Throws required for death by one, cumulative.
- If this penalty reaches three, the character dies of dehydration. This penalty may only be removed by meeting the water requirements when taking a new Extended Rest.
Healing Surges arent a good way to handle dehydration; just because someone can take a beating doesnt mean they need less water. They may need more. Dehydration should also be lethal on its own, without needing to chip away healing surges so that a fight becomes more dangerous and ultimately does the players in.
Using a Death Save mechanic puts the characters on a more even footing, everyone will need water. It wont just be a problem for the rogue with less healing surges or the wizard with a low Endurance check. Thirst is the great equalizer on Athas.
This also does away with the lax 'rule of three' from the DMG. In Dark Sun, water is a problem today, and every day. You dont have the luxury of waiting a week, losing only a few healing surges while you leisurely stroll around the wastes looking for a spring.
A party might have only one or two people capable of successfully foraging with Nature. Now they have to determine who gets the few rations gathered that day. If supplies get low, who decides who lives and who dies? When everyone is dieing of thirst, who gets to suck the juice from the only cactus found? Good times. That is Athas.
Food is far less of a concern, no need to track it really. If someone can manage to find water in the wastelands they should have an easier time finding food. One survival mechanic to track is enough.
- When traveling outside a settlement (city, town or merchant camp at an oasis, they all have enough water), characters must consume one ration of water per day before taking an Extended Rest.
- If a ration is not consumed before an Extended Rest is taken, the character must roll a saving throw with no modifiers.
- Failure lowers the number of failed Death Saving Throws required for death by one, cumulative.
- If this penalty reaches three, the character dies of dehydration. This penalty may only be removed by meeting the water requirements when taking a new Extended Rest.
You use excellent arguments. Using death saving throws is a good way to deal with this that doesn't conflict directly with combat, but does add an element of danger and warning to the characters. Plus, it doesn't scale with levels.
Is there a reason why you don't call just call it a Death Saving Throw as in PHB pg 295 except that the character is not dying? 3 failures means the character dies (regardless of the number of hit point the character has left).
As a side, races that have a bonus to death saving throws, are also have abonus to this (examples?). Constructs, can take 10... thus constructs never need to replenish water (example warforged). There are backgrounds to increase the number of death saving throws to 4, but this doesn't break anything (there is no way to increase this number beyond 4 that I know of).
I like the following house rule: Death Saving throw failures only replenish back to zero with an extended rest (as opposed to any rest).
You use excellent arguments. Using death saving throws is a good way to deal with this that doesn't conflict directly with combat, but does add an element of danger and warning to the characters. Plus, it doesn't scale with levels.
Is there a reason why you don't call just call it a Death Saving Throw as in PHB pg 295 except that the character is not dying? 3 failures means the character dies (regardless of the number of hit point the character has left).
As a side, races that have a bonus to death saving throws, are also have abonus to this (examples?). Constructs, can take 10... thus constructs never need to replenish water (example warforged). There are backgrounds to increase the number of death saving throws to 4, but this doesn't break anything (there is no way to increase this number beyond 4 that I know of).
I like the following house rule: Death Saving throw failures only replenish back to zero with an extended rest (as opposed to any rest).
Whatever its called, I meant it to deplete the available Death Saves used during combat, without otherwise being confused with them.
As for allowing constructs like Warforged as a playable race in a Dark Sun game...insanity! 
Never gonna happen at my table.
As for allowing constructs like Warforged as a playable race in a Dark Sun game...insanity!
Agreed! And here's the reason why crunch-wise.
Back when I first started playing DS 1st ed, I fondly remember when all my players were unseasoned and unprepared for what lay in store for them. Your average garden-variety PC is barely going to remember to buy rations, let alone water. Boy were they in for a treat. Well, not really... I was in for a treat. 
As soon as they left the relative safety of the verdant belt around Tyr and first set foot upon the desert proper, they thought, 'hey this is cake. You talk a scary campaign, DM, but we are gonna tear it up!'
Flash forward three days into the future. They have no water. They have lost 3d6 Con each because of aforementioned lack of water. No one had the foresight to take the survival proficiency. No one took the water finding proficiency. They are in the stoney barrens. They are lost. No one bothered to get direction sense. Even if they wanted to backtrack to civilisation, they couldn't: a twelve-hour-long sandstorm not only disoriented them, it also sapped more precious moisture from their barely protected bodies and removed all trace of their footprints.
They are wary of cacti, despite the fact they know that somehow they could extract water from one. They are wary because one shot spines at one of their number and nearly dragged him to a prickly death.
One member of the party is almost delirious and desperate enough to murder for just a taste of warm, brackish oasis water on his tongue (old rules that changed PCs' alignments to CE if water shortage became life and death).
What's that they see on the horizon, shimmering out of the heat haze? Riders! Kank-mounted riders with a large wagon that looks like a portable cell. Oh no, it's Werrik's Stalkers scuttling in to snatch up an easy payday to sell off at the slave markets of Urik...
Yep, those early days were epic battles for survival and though there were many 'standard' adventure hooks thrown in over the course of the campaign, (save mr/ms X, obtain item Y from ancient ruins Z) just getting around from one location to the the next was way more of a challenge than in traditional 'high fantasy' settings.
But then things changed. Players that didn't outright quit this unforgiving world had learned much during their sojourn. Thanks to the character tree system this education in Athasian survival didn't come cheap, however. I still have the piles of deceased characters kicking around somewhere and it was getting to look like the yellow pages.
Eventually, the concept-heavy character types started to wane in the wake of the next generation of desert dwellers: multiclass psionicists. By the end of the 5-year AD&D campaign the main players consisted of:
(1) Psionicist/Preserver/Cleric (2) Psionicist/Druid (3) Psionicist/Fighter/Thief ...and... a (4) Gladiator
Why I mention all of this is because clever and studious players that pored over the rules found certain combos, exploits and just plain, powerful stand-alone spells and powers that completely changed the tone of the campaign. No longer were they making agonising treks across sand-blasted wastelands, laden down with gallons and gallons of water. A simple psionic teleport (which from memory you could get at starting level in AD&D) and they'd pop anywhere on the Tablelands... and beyond.
Better yet, why not use a wormhole (from the Will and the Way) to transport an entire army across hundreds of miles to deploy as a rapid response team to crush those pesky elven raiders who erroneously thought that PC-owned outpost would be easy pickings.
Sure, that's fine at the higher levels (12+ for me), but players were doing these sorts of things with low level characters (4-6). Also, due to the character tree system, some well placed bets in the various arenas of the Tablelands and some liberal redistribution of wealth and the players never lacked for... ANYTHING!
Naturally I had to constantly readjust things to keep the game balanced and challenging whilst still maintaining a semblance of 'reality' within the context of the game world. It was a lot of work, and I don't believe in retroactive continuity when it becomes apparent that it's only in the interests of punishing creative players, no matter how well disguised. I as a player myself had seen that done by other DMs and wasn't too impressed.
A lot of these issues were more easily dealt with in Dark Sun D&D 3.5, not only because I now knew what to look for, but mostly because the game developers had fixed a broken game mechanic: namely, psionics. Even though I personally think it resembles magic more than it did in 2nd ed AD&D, it is a lot more balanced and refined.
I haven't tried 4th ed, (I'm holding out for the official DS release!) but hope that this tradition of intelligent mechanics balancing continues. This is especially important for a survival-themed campaign setting such as DS, where its mood of touch-and-go, life-and-death struggle for mere existence can be easily dispelled by a few overcooked spells or powers.
Regarding wheather effects on survivial, I've used the rules included in the Dune Trader supplement, under the "Trader Campaign" section, pages 79-80.
To summarize, the main conditions adversely effecting survivial are High Temperatures and Wind Speeds. The supplement includes columns for both and what effect they have on the player's consitution and exporsure to heat, as well as wind's effect on a player's ability to travel and melee/missile combat.
The supplement doesn't include it, but I've used a d8 and d6 to randomly determine the temperature/wind speed each day, unless I have predetermined conditions for a particular encounter.
Let me know if the page reference number in the Dune Trader supplement is enough, or if anyone needs details, i can probably post the tables.
I, too, ran it that way back in the day when DS was first out. And my players hated that feeling. They wanted to make a difference but the game box back then said not to let them and who was I to argue with a designer? Further, the modules were about them being the lowest of the lowest slaves and having very few options. They didn't want to play in that and I can't say I blame them! What a terrible place to be and if it's not fun, why play in it? Unfortunately, because of this, I didn't get to use Dark Sun or explore it back then. I understand the sentiment you are saying but I think your description was taking it too far.There should be times when the characters feel safe and it should happen often. Daily, even. It's when they go adventuring that they should wonder if they are crazy or not, braving the dangers of the desert for what? Is it worth it? Well, yes, as they keep surviving and getting treasure.
At some point, though, if how harsh things are is emphasized too much, I have had players retire their characters saying that adventuring was too dangerous and they now had enough money to survive, why keep risking their lives? But that was me and my group. YMMV.
It is a balance. On the one hand PCs should be nobodies. On the other hand, they should be somebodies or else they get bored of playing. No-one wants to play Amos the dungsweeper for the rest of their life unless some interesting stuff happens to Amos.
On the whole survival within the city-states is fairly safe. Its predictable. You know the risks (criminals, templars, nobles and merchant houses) and you minimise the risks you face when dealing with them (stay out of dark alleyways and don't annoy anyone). You do these things, and you'll probably live to reach 50 if not 60.
But again, that's the mindset of Amos the dungsweeper. Players want to do more interesting things. The setup I've found to be the best to encourage players to keep doing dangerous stuff, is to create a social structure that they can advance in.
At its most simple there are 4 professions you can join and then advance in. City Guard, Mercenary, Noble House, Merchant House and Thieves Guild. Their progression might go something like this:
- For the Militia: Unemployed Commoner -> Recruit -> Soldier -> Sergeant -> Corporal -> Lieutenant -> Captain -> Commander.
- Mercenary Company: Unemployed Commoner -> Runner -> Trooper -> Sergeant -> Lieutenant -> Commander
- Noble House Version 1: Unemployed Commoner -> House Servant -> Junior Aide -> Personal Aide -> Senior Aide
- Noble House Version 2: Unemployed Commoner -> Recruit -> House Guard -> Sergeant -> Guard Captain
- Merchant House: Unemployed Commoner -> Recruit Hunter -> Hunter -> Senior Hunter -> Commander of the Hunt
- Thieves Guild: Unskilled Commoner -> Apprentice Thief -> Thief -> Overseer -> Guild Boss
This way you have progression for the players to advance. Will it be difficult to rise from a soldier to a sergeant? Or a Junior Aide to a Personal Aide? Heck yeah! You've got competition who will stoop to anything to take the higher position and gain better pay. But the higher you climb, the better the rewards.
Also by having the PCs have occupations that aren't damn adventurers, you have built in patrons. In order to advance, the patron needs to rely on its underlings. As the patron advances, so can the underlings as reward for their valuable service and to also ensure they continue to remain useful to the patron.
Also, because the world is so harsh, a Militia Soldier might be tempted by the Thieves Guild to betray his patron/superiors by leaking information. This is very dangerous and if ever he was discovered he would almost certainly be killed. Alternatively he may double-cross the guild by telling his templar about the offer. But then if ever the Thieves Guild found out he was a double-agent, he'd almost certainly be killed once more.
Also by advancing in station, they can have greater influence over the world and the story. The most powerful character I've ever seen in a Dark Sun game was a level 1 character who never used any combat whatsoever, but nonetheless managed to climb from house servant to Founder of her own Merchant House. That was unprecendented. And yet she never actually fought in combat herself.
So the harshness does need to be there. But so does the carrot. And the above can be a very juicy carrot (note: there are many, many more varied occupations you can add to your game. These are just very simple examples).
If characters ( ;) ) think themselves free from danger for whole weeks while living in the harshest environment and the most oppressive dictatorships possible, clearly something is wrong.
I dunno. I've always felt fairly safe when I'm playing a low level city-bound character. Its when I started getting involved in more dangerous plots at higher levels that I started to fear for my safety.
But then again, those are my law-abiding characters. My drug addled or magickers have, of course, felt in danger fairly regularly.
But on the other hand
Why do they adventure in Dark Sun? Because they actually ARE heroes. They are fighting to change the world. That is WHY they adventure.
I don't play heroes when I play Dark Sun. And I've asked my players to give a non-heroic campaign a try if we ever play Dark Sun with me as the DM.
Of course, you don't have to go about it that way, and Athas offers plenty of foes and ruins to keep adventurers with no "political agenda" going looking for long lost wealth and magic items to get them away from the horrible lives they once knew, but even then, the idea of perpetual danger is a good motivation for adventuring.
Oh I love political agendas. Without it, Dark Sun simply wouldn't be the same for me. I've got notes on a possible 4th ed Dark Sun campaign and I don't know what side my players will choose. There are 3 factions I've set up that will be dominant in this campaign, and it will be up to the players to choose a faction. Once they do, that faction becomes the good-guy, while the others are the bad-guys. Nothing will change about the "good-guy faction". They'll do exactly what they would otherwise do had the players chosen a different faction. The only difference will be from the players perspective.
But then, I really enjoy morally ambiguous campaigns.
Is there a way to reduce the number of rolls required, while maintaining the "feel" of dark sun?
Let's say they're travelling for a week. 7*4 rolls is going to get boring very quickly. Instead you can have each player roll and have a table that dictates what happens:
* 16 to 20 - They survive with no appreciable difficulties.
* 12 to 15 - They lose 1 healing surge.
* 8 to 11 - They lose 2 healing surges.
* 4 to 7 - They lose 3 healing surges.
* 1 to 3 - They lose 4 healing surges.
(NOTE: Those numbers are completely arbitrary).
That way if they roll a 1, then the entire week was completely awful for them. Whereas if they rolled a 13 then the week was mostly okay, although there was that one day where they stumbled down a dune and sprained an ankle.
Also the penatly can be changed to anything you want. The main idea is if you want to resolve longer periods of time with a single die roll, you don't make it a "save or die" but instead make it a graded effect.
Back when I first started playing DS 1st ed, I fondly remember when all my players were unseasoned and unprepared for what lay in store for them. Your average garden-variety PC is barely going to remember to buy rations, let alone water. Boy were they in for a treat. Well, not really... I was in for a treat.
Heh. It could be my 7 years of Dark Sun, but I always buy rations and waterskins before I head out into the wilderness. It never even occurred to me that this was peculiar and wouldn't be something everyone does
Its just an automatic reaction for me. We're heading into the wilderness? Do I have a character who knows how to live off the land? No. Time to go shopping for all my supplies. If I DM a game of Dark Sun in August I'm going to have to give my players plenty of warning for the first few games.