What mechanics would you use for psionic enchantments?
As for me, in a similar style to the bard-only magic, I would have them be restricted to the augment classes (classes with power points). The rituals would be augmentable, usually to last longer or be more powerful, but power points spent upon them would not return unless conditions of the ritual allow it. I would also have them all be listed at level 21 and up.
Can you think of any rituals that you would include in this category? Most of the enchantments I found were kind of evil. Others worked better as powers.
If we include some of the old 2e "10th level" spells we have (modified ad hoc to work in 4e; we'd have to think about limiting minions and controlled creatures though) we have these descriptions to work with in our campaigns:
- Advanced Domination: Using a prized object as a focus, control one being for an extensive period of time.
- Defiling Stasis: Push defiling damage far away from yourself and nearby allies.
- Dome of Invulnerability: An earthbound barrier against magics.
- Enchanted Armaments: Temporarily enhance weapons to +2 against a specific foe or group.
- Enslave Elemental: Summon and control a specific elemental creature indefinitely.
- Immediate Animation: Animate a large number of dead creatures into zombies, provided those creatures died in combat within one hour before the casting of the spell.
- Just Sovereign: Pacify a group of creatures, making them believe their leader is far kinder than previous actions would suggest.
- Life Extension: Draw upon childhood objects' power to live and stave of the effects of aging for an extra king's age (77 years).
- Magical Undead Minions: Use supernatural powers and spy remotely through undead minions.
- Magical Plague: Choose a supernatural power source (shadow, arcane, etc.). Targeted characters with such powers are subject to the Magical Plague disease (detailed on page XX).
- Masquerade of the Impostor: Convince a section of a population that a character is their leader or, conversely, an impostor.
- Mass Fanaticism or Cowardice: Strengthen or weaken the resolve of a group to fight, using an object of significance to that group as a focus.
- Mountain Fortress: Conjure a mighty domicile, that lasts a year and a day, out of bare terrain.
- Pact: Gain the services of an elemental or shadow creature for a year and a day at the risk of insanity.
- Prolific Vegetation: Create a large area of hardy plant life.
- Raise Nation: Animate the remains of a long-dead nation into loyal skeletal minions.
- Recruitment: Call upon local evil creatures to make a temporary army.
- Dark Rift: Shadow and undead creatures in a zone around the caster gain +2 to defenses.
- Rolling Road: The terrain around you is smooth, easily traversed, and hazard-free.
- Undead Lineage: Gain indefinite control over and knowledge of one undead being.
It bothers me when needing to spend external money on components (with assumed paraphernalia) for a 'ritual' that uses the innate psionic power of the mind. It could be cool if some of the psionic rituals spent a healing surge instead, like the martial practices do. Maybe even call them 'meditations'.
RAW they weren't available to purely psionic PC's, you had to have one of the other power sources as well, therefore just limiting it to classes with Augmentable/power points is already against the old 2e flavour).
In 4e, there's just no reason for this mechanic anymore, as there are already mighty epic enchantments (with the prohibitive costs involved)
Also, the 4e mechanics no longer support high-level casters just wiping out armies (which is what old 2e PC's of this level were cabpable of doing do on a fairly easy basis, especially with some of the necromantic/enslaving rituals), so having these rituals raising undead armies etc, while an excellent flavour and souvenir of the old 2e system, are no longer balanced options for 4e.
The utility rituals however, would be excellent:
- Rolling Road
- Life Extension (which I believe is already around somewhere...I remember reading a 4e version of this recently)
- Prolific Vegetation
- Mountain Fortress
Why not give them the same restriction as old Psionic Enchanments? Must have a blend of Psionic power and another supernatural source (either through Hybrid or M/C)?
Then just make them rituals of the same power level as the other epic rituals already available.
Just keep in mind that the whole mass army mechanic of old 2e is no longer valid for 4e. Therefore allowing a 4e PC to raise armies or enslave elementals is very, very broken.
That being said, have fun ;)
It bothers me when needing to spend external money on components (with assumed paraphernalia) for a 'ritual' that uses the innate psionic power of the mind. It could be cool if some of the psionic rituals spent a healing surge instead, like the martial practices do. Maybe even call them 'meditations'.
Logically, we could use your argument to wipe all paraphernalia and costs from every other power source as well:
- Divine: Power is channelled through a PC from a deity? Why use anything else?
- Primal: Power is channelled through a PC from primal spirits. What do they care about incense or residuum?
etc
etc
Even Psionic PC's have crystals and shards etc to focus their psionic power into bigger effects.
Mechanically, you can't just let Psionic PC's perform rituals at no permanent GP cost. It breaks the balance of ritual casting for all other PC's.
These costs have to apply to everyone, regardless of power source. Otherwise the whole equipment costs and wealth calculations will start unbalancing for levels and classes...
RAW they weren't available to purely psionic PC's, you had to have one of the other power sources as well, therefore just limiting it to classes with Augmentable/power points is already against the old 2e flavor).
In 4e, there's just no reason for this mechanic anymore, as there are already mighty epic enchantments (with the prohibitive costs involved)
Why not give them the same restriction as old Psionic Enchantments? Must have a blend of Psionic power and another supernatural source (either through Hybrid or M/C)?
My feeling is anyone with the ability to cast rituals and use power points can have access to these rare rituals. But they do need to have a restriction of psionic ability or their is no point in calling them psionic enchantments. And remember, these are now in 4e thanks to the book Psionic Power. So I want to explore what they could be.
As for balance issues, I think summoned/thralled creatures can be tackled in a few ways, but the most obvious is for them to limit the total amount of power points available to the caster as long as they maintain control. In other words, the balance would have to be written into each enchantment's description. What I made were mere summaries. Even if the powers are deemed to be beyond the scope of PCs, I hope the thread gives people ideas for what their villains can do.
When it comes to influencing groups/mustering armies, those groups become story events rather than game mechanics to be used in fights. So while you can raise an undead army, the DM will require you to get the dramatic work done and kill your major enemies personally. If you want to raze a city, you have to defeat its champions; skeletons aren't gonna do it for you.
My feeling is anyone with the ability to cast rituals and use power points can have access to these rare rituals. But they do need to have a restriction of psionic ability or their is no point in calling them psionic enchantments. And remember, these are now in 4e thanks to the book Psionic Power. So I want to explore what they could be.
So you'd let a fighter with Ritual Casting feat and the Noble Theme use any of them? I'm not judging, I'm just trying to find the line you're walking between mechanics and flavour.
As for balance issues, I think summoned/thralled creatures can be tackled in a few ways, but the most obvious is for them to limit the total amount of power points available to the caster as long as they maintain control. In other words, the balance would have to be written into each enchantment's description. What I made were mere summaries. Even if the powers are deemed to be beyond the scope of PCs, I hope the thread gives people ideas for what their villains can do.
When it comes to influencing groups/mustering armies, those groups become story events rather than game mechanics to be used in fights. So while you can raise an undead army, the DM will require you to get the dramatic work done and kill your major enemies personally. If you want to raze a city, you have to defeat its champions; skeletons aren't gonna do it for you.
Well, then if these are story rituals, why bother having them listed as standard devices? Just write them up as One-off enchantments (with unique, one-time-only requirements), and give them the same descriptions and flavour of the old enchantments.
Same if they're rituals for villains only. No need for proper balance...all the PC's need to find is a shred of ritual preparation from the villain's diary/letters/notes to henchman that says:
- To Do: Design Ritual for raising armies of the undead. Check.
- To Do: Find right pinkie of Kalak for ritual use: In Progress
- To Do: Take over the world: Pending ritual casting. Task Overdue.
Pardon the parody, but it's that simple. The PC's don't need a full description of the ritual to know the villain's plan, and have the quest to stop it.
If mechanically you're not worried about the number of minions raised or strength/type of elementals enslaved (as it's just a story plot, not a number crunching exercise), why bother spending the time on balance?
1) The PC's need the ritual.
2) They quest for the requirements.
3) Some Psionic-blend of PC casts the ritual.
4) Campaign moves forward.
the end :P
I don't think you ned to worry about power-points available while under control or anything like that. Just make it hurt their wallet or hard-earned quest items (maybe a magic artifact of choice?). Then have the elementals off sieging the town or opening a portal to the villain's hideaway...and there, nice, neat, ritual used and campaign moves forward.
The cost of the ritual, however you make it, needs to be balanced with your campaign into how often you want them to use the ritual to solve their issues.
- If it's cheap, but powerful, they'll use it all the time.
- If it's powerful, but FRICKIN' EXPENSIVE (either GP cost, must sacrifice magic items, heck, maybe even must sacrifice players!) the PC's will use it judiciously, only when they feel they have no other choice.
The only reason you'll even need to balance these is if they're intended for regular occurrences: ie, now that the PC's have the ritual, they intend to bind elementals all over the place, or raise armies to take on Urik, then Raam, then Nibenay etc
And if that's your intent, well, game balance isn't really the issue you have to worry about, is it? :P
So you'd let a fighter with Ritual Casting feat and the Noble Theme use any of them?
Absolutely. They've invested in the feat and taken a theme. However, the few power points they get from a theme may not help them with more powerful rituals.
Let me clarify something else. The summoning/thralling effects should only bring one creature under control per casting. You have solidified my opinion that one would have to use power points per ritual to maintain control.
The groups would be a different thing than the individual controls. They would A)provide a group of NPCs and B)make them follow your general instructions. If they appear with you on a battlefield at all, they will be minions (1hp).
Remember, I'm just trying to gather some ideas. I have yet to see you recommend a psionic enchantment of your own. Give it a stab.
Err, like I said, I don't see the need.
4e mechanics don't require Psionic enchantments to create epic rituals (ie 10th level spells), as they're already there.
What I am questioning is your requirement on the mechanics.
So you'd let a fighter with Ritual Casting feat and the Noble Theme use any of them?
Absolutely. They've invested in the feat and taken a theme. However, the few power points they get from a theme may not help them with more powerful rituals.
Let me clarify something else. The summoning/thralling effects should only bring one creature under control per casting. You have solidified my opinion that one would have to use power points per ritual to maintain control.
Why?
Arcane/Divine/Primal/etc ritual casters don't need to sacrifice Encounter/Daily slots to power their epic rituals. Why should a Psionic character be penalised with Power Point loss?
Healing surges are used in rituals every now and then (Knock, Portals), so these could be a valid and flavourful power source if required (instead of power points).
The groups would be a different thing than the individual controls. They would A)provide a group of NPCs and B)make them follow your general instructions. If they appear with you on a battlefield at all, they will be minions (1hp).
And you think you need an epic ritual for the PC's to have a few minions on their side? Hell, that can happen with some clever roleplaying and/or bribes/negotiations for servitude or services rendered.
I love your creativity. Also am enamoured with your desire to bring some of the old DS 2e flavour back.
However I think you're over-complicating the process, and making rules where there's no need.
You want rituals that create undead? Sure...here ya go.
1) Make the ritual,
2) Set the cost,
3) check it for balance and
4) hand it over to the PC's.
Want PC's to enslave elementals?
Follow steps 1-4.
But redesigning the ritual mechanic just so it has so 2e-esque limitations seems like nuking a beehive. Unnecessary overkill. You can perform the whole requirement with just some simple flavour-text descriptions to give 4e epic ritual mechanics a Dark Sun feel.
In 2e, psionic enchantments were there to be more powerful then ye olde Wish spell.
In 4e, there is no wish spell to beat, and epic rituals already exist to raise mountains fortresses and condemn arch-villains to permanent banishment (or release them ;) )
What more are you trying to do?
Here's the vacuum: Psionic Enchantments are now cannon again and I miss them. I'm looking for ways to flavorfully fill that vacuum. If rituals are not to your liking for filling this vacuum, then by all means please suggest an alternative feat, power, or other mechanic.
Why spend power points, which equivocates to sacrificing access to dailies? A couple reasons:
- Giving access to more powerful rituals but balancing this access out.
- Using power points this way makes the ritual feel psionic. It also gives power points something interesting to do rather than just fuel encounter powers.
- Any power points sacrificed as long as you maintain a ritual are going to give you a powerful benefit, such as an NPC that fights with you.
However, healing surges may work as a sacrifice; I just don't feel them flavor-wise.
I won't argue that any campaign may have access to rituals I've described, but I think the requirements for non-psionic characters would be more expensive. Again, the balance is in the loss of power points.
Don't think they fit at all? I think you may have the wrong thread then.
Here's the vacuum: Psionic Enchantments are now cannon again and I miss them. I'm looking for ways to flavorfully fill that vacuum. If rituals are not to your liking for filling this vacuum, then by all means please suggest an alternative feat, power, or other mechanic.
Why spend power points, which equivocates to sacrificing access to dailies? A couple reasons:
- Giving access to more powerful rituals but balancing this access out.
- Using power points this way makes the ritual feel psionic. It also gives power points something interesting to do rather than just fuel encounter powers.
- Any power points sacrificed as long as you maintain a ritual are going to give you a powerful benefit, such as an NPC that fights with you.
However, healing surges may work as a sacrifice; I just don't feel them flavor-wise.
I won't argue that any campaign may have access to rituals I've described, but I think the requirements for non-psionic characters would be more expensive. Again, the balance is in the loss of power points.
I think we have some perceptions reversed, which is where we're getting stuck.
I believe that in 2e, Psionic Enchantments were there to fill the vacuum at the time, where you just had no useful improvements between L21 and L30 in terms of Spells or rituals. Psionic Enchantments fixed that with a hybrid spell/ritual mechanic, thus creating L10 spells.
In 4e, we no longer have that Vacuum. We have solid, balanced powers from L1 to L30, with a new ritual mechanic for long-term rituals from L1 to L30.
I don't see a vacuum to be filled here, especially as 4e Psionic powers fall under the Arcane skill, so we already have the ritual materials and mechanics required for them. If it's flavour text you're looking for, then make a few rituals (from old 2e), label them Psionic source only, and make them do what they used to do.
In 2e, Psionics were a RADICALLY different power source. In 4e, they're not, hence my reservations in creating a new ritual mechanic to use them.
If you want to create rituals more powerful than existing rituals of the same epic level (let's call them plus-power), but have balanced out their costs in terms of
- Power points,
- healing surges,
- expensive ritual requirements,
- caster pre-requisites
- or any combination therein,
then go for it
Personally, I don't see the need, especially if these rituals are only going to serve (as you put it) a story point for your campaign.
Plot point:
The epic PC's have finished creating their new city on one of the Sit Islands, but need to transport a massive amount of cargo to meet their populace's needs for food and water:
They research/find/hear tell of an ancient ritual (eg Rolling Roads), the DM decides the requirements, and the PC's start questing for the stuff they need.
At quest's end, Psionic-blend PC casts the ritual, and bang. Job done.
Frequency?
Or are you now shifting to a more frequent use option of these plus-powerful rituals, so that the PC's will be often travelling with enslaved elementals and/or undead minions?
At which point, why not just create these epic plus-powerful ritual utilising the same healing surge mechanic utilised in the Travel Portal ritual (to create new portals) which then gives a definitive limit as to how many of these plus-powerful rituals can be active, while still allowing the Psionic PC to keep their normal alottment of PP's.
I'm just really confused as to what you want here. Are you after:
- A) Rituals that are for Psionicists? Either by flavour or design
- B) Rituals that are classic Psionic Enchantments in that they require a mixed character to cast them
- C) Rituals that are more powerful than other non-Psionic rituals at the same level
- D) Rituals that are for frequent PC use,
- E) Rituals that are for villains/plot-points only
Psionic enchantments were a complicated, and honestly broken 2e mechanic that permitted epic PC's to perform world-shaking acts that held long-term consequences from every casting.
While that is indeed the scope of epic campaigns, I'm hard-pressed to believe that they should be placed at anything more than Myth-and-legend level for 4e PC's, with the occasional ritual to move the rest of the campaign forward.
You can still have all your flavour (psionic, descriptive, nostalgic and otherwise).
You can still have all your effects
But in order for these rituals to retain their mystique, their uniqueness, and the PC's general desire for them, then these rituals should be just shy of unnattainable.
I never let my epic PC's get more than 3 Psionic enchantments during theior campaign (got to around L25 over the course of several years), and they only cast them maybe once each.
Don't let psionic enchantments become just another encounter power. Just another class mechanic. Let them keep their near-artifact nature, give them out sparingly, and don't give the PC's all the details.
I think the suggestion psionic class-only rituals is the best fix/compromise you've proposed. Just like bard-only rituals, with one simple keyword we make a ritual have the flavor and requirements it needs.
That's what I was originally suggesting (the list was just ideas), but I think we got muddled with talk of power point using classes. I would still require the psionic class to use power points to cast these, but that's just because it doesn't feel right to me for a monk with Ritual Casting to go casting these spells. But maybe I am being to restrictive.
Okay, we've gotten somewhere.
I think the suggestion psionic class-only rituals is the best fix/compromise you've proposed. Just like bard-only rituals, with one simple keyword we make a ritual have the flavor and requirements it needs.
That's what I was originally suggesting (the list was just ideas), but I think we got muddled with talk of power point using classes. I would still require the psionic class to use power points to cast these, but that's just because it doesn't feel right to me for a monk with Ritual Casting to go casting these spells. But maybe I am being to restrictive.
Glad we;ve gotten somewhere ;)
But it still depends on what you want these rituals to accomplish (out of points A-E above).
Also, are you getting the PC to spend PP instead of other components, or in addition to other material components (similar to equivalent level rituals).
This mechanic alone can set the tone for the power level you're looking for....
After our hashing it out, I think the class requirement is all we need, really. No need to spend power points or anything. So psionic rituals do standard ritualistic stuff, and cost standard ritual prices, but feel psionic or Dark Sunesque in some appropriate way that is decided by the spell's effects. Just as bard rituals feel like only a bard could do them.
I recommend paragon to epic level for the range of psionic enchantment rituals. I think it could be cool if we could bring back the list I made in the first post as psionic enchantments for nostalgia purposes, but honestly most of them don't feel psionic or relevant to Dark Sun, so I would just go with this smaller list (modifications for game balance in bold):
- Advanced Domination: Using a prized object as a focus that you must keep safe, dominate one humanoid for a year and a day.
- Defiling Stasis: Push defiling damage far away from yourself and nearby allies.
- Just Sovereign: Pacify a group of creatures, making them believe their leader is far kinder than previous actions would suggest.
- Life Extension: Draw upon childhood objects' power to live and stave of the effects of aging for an extra king's age (77 years).
- Magical Undead Minions: Use supernatural powers and spy remotely through undead minions who are friendly to you but act independently.
- Masquerade of the Impostor: Convince a section of a population that a character is their leader or, conversely, an impostor.
- Mass Fanaticism or Cowardice: Strengthen or weaken the resolve of a group to fight, using an object of significance to that group as a focus.
- Prolific Vegetation: Create a large area of hardy plant life.
- Raise Nation: Animate the remains of a long-dead nation into skeletons that are benign to you and your allies and hostile to all other life.
- Recruitment: Call upon local evil humanoids to gather and attack one location. They ignore you and your allies.
- Undead Lineage: Gain knowledge of one undead being's personal history. That creature will guard an area you designate until destroyed.
And with that last post, we have alignment
The only minor issue I have is a souvenir from the old days: I'm not sold on having Paragon-level Psionic enchantments.
However, that being said, high Paragon levels in 4e with their near-Epic scope should probably be of sufficient power to do this, so I can just suck up my reservations ;)