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Incentives to use DS specific stuff?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rothe
Aug 23, 2010 4:38:14
After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content.

Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better.

Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat.

I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game.
Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance.

I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly.

Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far.

#2
theamnesiac
Aug 23, 2010 9:00:21 You could treat non-DS PPs like the Divine power source. Possible if a player really wants it, but strongly discouraged. I can definitely agree with wanting to keep the majority of the game using DS material, I'm going to be using a DS PP regardless of mechanical benefit, and encouraging other players at my table to do the same.
#3
thundersteel1918
Aug 23, 2010 9:06:23

After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content.

Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better.

Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat.

I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game.
Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance.

I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly.

Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far.

I think dark sun has plenty that sets it apart from any other setting already. No metal, harsh environment, defiling, prevalent psionics, very subjective morality, character themes.

Forcing a limited selection of PP doest really help make the world seem any more different. you already have a character theme and wild talent for that. limiting the PP choice to DS will just limit most people to only 2 PP's, neither of which may suit their character concept.

The DS PP's already have enough incentive for choosing them, some of them are very cool, I'm leaning towards one myself for the DS campaign I'm in.

If you want to give incentive to the aspects of the game that focus around skills, just make your skill challenges matter more.

It may just be me, but I dont see how changing 1 more small element of the game, ontop of all the changes DS already made, makes the difference between new and exciting and run of the mill.
#4
ChrisTheS
Aug 23, 2010 9:09:50
Let them take anything they like - as long as they're investing in your storyline, it shouldn't really matter what book they take the mechanics from. You should suggest that using stuff from the book might make them more invested in the setting and get a better feel for it, but if none of those options happen to fit their ideas for their characters, then none of those options will do, and that's all there is to it.
#5
rollawaythestone
Aug 23, 2010 14:10:27 I would encourage PP's that fit the setting - but I don't see a problem with most PP's off the top of my head.

Obviously Divine Paragon Paths would be out and things from other settings like the FR Sword Coast Corsair. I would also consider not using the PP's from Manual of the Planes. PP's from the race specific books would also be out, simply because the races in Dark Sun are supposed to be different.

I think the Dark Sun paragon paths are excited and new enough to encourage players to take them on their own without forcing their hand. Maybe including some roleplay incentives for doing so might steer them towards a DS paragon path.
#6
big_goon
Aug 23, 2010 16:23:18
Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat.

Make skills more useful in combat. Make more skill challenges.

I'm going to encourage my PCs to be mindful of their skills and select some skill-related feats. That way, they won't complain to me when there's a TPK from a skill challenge ;)

I love the smell of burnt PCs in the morning.
#7
Duskweaver
Aug 24, 2010 9:28:00 Remind your powergaming players that the best combat abilities in the world are of little use when you're stuck in the middle of the desert with no supplies. Being able to find food, water and shelter, and eventually being able to navigate your way back to civilization, are much more useful in a DarkSun campaign. Which is why so many of the DS paragon paths emphasise skills over combat ability.
#8
tallric_kruush
Aug 24, 2010 14:04:45
I believe it's always best to give the players as many options as possible.

They will already be choosing a DS specific Theme (assuming they want a theme), and are likely amped to get started in Athas. I don't think "a non-DS content-filter" is necessary. Virtually anything is easily reskinned. The story and goals of the PCs have much more to do with immersion in the setting than the crunchy bits such as classes, PPs and the like.

That's my two cents, at least.
#9
tallric_kruush
Aug 24, 2010 14:09:02
Obviously Divine Paragon Paths would be out and things from other settings like the FR Sword Coast Corsair. I would also consider not using the PP's from Manual of the Planes. PP's from the race specific books would also be out, simply because the races in Dark Sun are supposed to be different.

Virtually an of these PPs could be reskinned as something more appropriate to Athas. Though I don't have my FRPG near at hand, I'd bet the Corsair PP could be reskinned as a Balican Silt Sea Corsair, or somesuch.

For the most part, crunchy bits like PPs are just the structure that give meaning to our die rolls. The real essence of the character is in the backstory, the motivations and the actions.

Again, that's just my two cents, though. YMMV.
#10
BronleyLaerchenheim1
Aug 27, 2010 7:34:45
From my old book I remember that the odd DS weapons are so popular because they are superior than standard weapons when it comes to breakage. A sword made from bone or obsidian might more easyly break than a carical. In the old rules there were more sophisticated breakage rules to manage that... I am thinking of using something like this in my campaign.

Reg. weapon breakage: it seems odd that magical enhanced weapons do either also break at a natural 1 or do never break. I houserule that those weapons do also break at a natural 1 but that they recieve a saving throw with their magical bonus as a bonus to prevent breakage.
#11
RyndarLocke
Aug 27, 2010 14:58:53

After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content.

Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better.

Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat.

I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game.
Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance.

I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly.

Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far.

This is where roleplaying and DM adjudiation comes to light.

In my Dark Sun game, unless the PP is based off your race, you need to find a trainer, or a teacher, a lost tablet explaining how it works ect.

"I wanna be a demigod!" To bad no divine power source in Dark Sun.

#12
rollawaythestone
Aug 27, 2010 15:46:46

This is where roleplaying and DM adjudiation comes to light.

In my Dark Sun game, unless the PP is based off your race, you need to find a trainer, or a teacher, a lost tablet explaining how it works ect.

"I wanna be a demigod!" To bad no divine power source in Dark Sun.

I agree with you in part. Some Paragon Paths are so obscure and specific that it is hard to easily justify the player taking them in such a isolated setting such as Dark Sun. Some of the Wizard or Warlock paragon paths come to mind here.

Primal paths, given or transmitted by the Spirits, seem less of an issue. In addition, something like the Daggermaster for the Rogue, is could fit perfectly without someone having to track down some master knife-fighter. Through heroic tier, the Rogue develops into a master himself.

I agree about limiting certain Epic Destinies. Can't use Chosen, or Demigod IMO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rothe Aug 23, 2010 4:38:14	After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content. Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better. Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat. I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game. Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance. I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly. Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far.
#2 theamnesiac Aug 23, 2010 9:00:21	You could treat non-DS PPs like the Divine power source. Possible if a player really wants it, but strongly discouraged. I can definitely agree with wanting to keep the majority of the game using DS material, I'm going to be using a DS PP regardless of mechanical benefit, and encouraging other players at my table to do the same.
#3 thundersteel1918 Aug 23, 2010 9:06:23	After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content. Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better. Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat. I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game. Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance. I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly. Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far. I think dark sun has plenty that sets it apart from any other setting already. No metal, harsh environment, defiling, prevalent psionics, very subjective morality, character themes. Forcing a limited selection of PP doest really help make the world seem any more different. you already have a character theme and wild talent for that. limiting the PP choice to DS will just limit most people to only 2 PP's, neither of which may suit their character concept. The DS PP's already have enough incentive for choosing them, some of them are very cool, I'm leaning towards one myself for the DS campaign I'm in. If you want to give incentive to the aspects of the game that focus around skills, just make your skill challenges matter more. It may just be me, but I dont see how changing 1 more small element of the game, ontop of all the changes DS already made, makes the difference between new and exciting and run of the mill.
#4 ChrisTheS Aug 23, 2010 9:09:50	Let them take anything they like - as long as they're investing in your storyline, it shouldn't really matter what book they take the mechanics from. You should suggest that using stuff from the book might make them more invested in the setting and get a better feel for it, but if none of those options happen to fit their ideas for their characters, then none of those options will do, and that's all there is to it.
#5 rollawaythestone Aug 23, 2010 14:10:27	I would encourage PP's that fit the setting - but I don't see a problem with most PP's off the top of my head. Obviously Divine Paragon Paths would be out and things from other settings like the FR Sword Coast Corsair. I would also consider not using the PP's from Manual of the Planes. PP's from the race specific books would also be out, simply because the races in Dark Sun are supposed to be different. I think the Dark Sun paragon paths are excited and new enough to encourage players to take them on their own without forcing their hand. Maybe including some roleplay incentives for doing so might steer them towards a DS paragon path.
#6 big_goon Aug 23, 2010 16:23:18	Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat. Make skills more useful in combat. Make more skill challenges. I'm going to encourage my PCs to be mindful of their skills and select some skill-related feats. That way, they won't complain to me when there's a TPK from a skill challenge ;) I love the smell of burnt PCs in the morning.
#7 Duskweaver Aug 24, 2010 9:28:00	Remind your powergaming players that the best combat abilities in the world are of little use when you're stuck in the middle of the desert with no supplies. Being able to find food, water and shelter, and eventually being able to navigate your way back to civilization, are much more useful in a DarkSun campaign. Which is why so many of the DS paragon paths emphasise skills over combat ability.
#8 tallric_kruush Aug 24, 2010 14:04:45	I believe it's always best to give the players as many options as possible. They will already be choosing a DS specific Theme (assuming they want a theme), and are likely amped to get started in Athas. I don't think "a non-DS content-filter" is necessary. Virtually anything is easily reskinned. The story and goals of the PCs have much more to do with immersion in the setting than the crunchy bits such as classes, PPs and the like. That's my two cents, at least.
#9 tallric_kruush Aug 24, 2010 14:09:02	Obviously Divine Paragon Paths would be out and things from other settings like the FR Sword Coast Corsair. I would also consider not using the PP's from Manual of the Planes. PP's from the race specific books would also be out, simply because the races in Dark Sun are supposed to be different. Virtually an of these PPs could be reskinned as something more appropriate to Athas. Though I don't have my FRPG near at hand, I'd bet the Corsair PP could be reskinned as a Balican Silt Sea Corsair, or somesuch. For the most part, crunchy bits like PPs are just the structure that give meaning to our die rolls. The real essence of the character is in the backstory, the motivations and the actions. Again, that's just my two cents, though. YMMV.
#10 BronleyLaerchenheim1 Aug 27, 2010 7:34:45	From my old book I remember that the odd DS weapons are so popular because they are superior than standard weapons when it comes to breakage. A sword made from bone or obsidian might more easyly break than a carical. In the old rules there were more sophisticated breakage rules to manage that... I am thinking of using something like this in my campaign. Reg. weapon breakage: it seems odd that magical enhanced weapons do either also break at a natural 1 or do never break. I houserule that those weapons do also break at a natural 1 but that they recieve a saving throw with their magical bonus as a bonus to prevent breakage.
#11 RyndarLocke Aug 27, 2010 14:58:53	After reading quickly through the DSCG, I am pretty happy about the content. Still, I have a nagging doubt that some stuff will just be neglected in the favor of "same old same old" stuff from the earlier books just because the mechanics are better. Particularly the PP's in the book seem to have plenty of abilities that interact with skills. Some of the powergaming players don't want to take PP's that don't help in combat. I was thinking about requiring everyone to take a PP from DSCG in our first DS game. Does it seem completely horrible as an option? Everybody would know in advance and the game would probably start at level 6 so PP's would be gained eventually and could be planned in advance. I am not so worried about the theme powers, as they seem to be ok mostly. Any ideas on how to give incentives for using the world specific stuff without making any absolute rulings? I feel like it would make the game a bit more alive and be a good break from the run-of-the-mill d&d games we have had so far. This is where roleplaying and DM adjudiation comes to light. In my Dark Sun game, unless the PP is based off your race, you need to find a trainer, or a teacher, a lost tablet explaining how it works ect. "I wanna be a demigod!" To bad no divine power source in Dark Sun.
#12 rollawaythestone Aug 27, 2010 15:46:46	This is where roleplaying and DM adjudiation comes to light. In my Dark Sun game, unless the PP is based off your race, you need to find a trainer, or a teacher, a lost tablet explaining how it works ect. "I wanna be a demigod!" To bad no divine power source in Dark Sun. I agree with you in part. Some Paragon Paths are so obscure and specific that it is hard to easily justify the player taking them in such a isolated setting such as Dark Sun. Some of the Wizard or Warlock paragon paths come to mind here. Primal paths, given or transmitted by the Spirits, seem less of an issue. In addition, something like the Daggermaster for the Rogue, is could fit perfectly without someone having to track down some master knife-fighter. Through heroic tier, the Rogue develops into a master himself. I agree about limiting certain Epic Destinies. Can't use Chosen, or Demigod IMO.