- First, Chapter 5 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting presents a desert primer. Not all deserts consist solely of sand, and this section provides an introduction to the landforms and conditions that prevail over much of the world.
Next, the chapter describes prominent locations on Athas. These include the Seven Cities, the great city-states of the Tyr Region: Tyr, Balic, Draj, Gulg, Nibenay, Raam, and Urik. Tyr is described at greater length, since its current state of affairs provides many opportunities for heroes looking for a way to make a difference in the world.
In addition, this section discusses major regions of Athas in the vicinity of Tyr: the Estuary of the Forked Tongue, the Forest Ridge, the Ivory Triangle, the Ringing Mountains, the Road of Kings, the Sea of Silt, the Southern Wastes, the T ablelands, and the Western Hinterlands.
Quite an extensive list of locations seem to be detailed; I hope the chapter is long enough to make justice to each one.
- Tithian is confirmed as king. I guess this means Rikus, Sadira and the gang will be in the 4e canon too. At this point, I'm not so sure anymore that Raajat won't appear in the canon.
- Half-giants are referred at as goliaths by default. Understandable decision, but there will be tears.
- the frequent use of capital letters to refer to the Seven Cities confirms that they dropped any plan about using the old "maybe there's more city states" lore hints.
All in all an interesting article, but I'm really surprised to see so much of the Prism Pentad being brought into 4e.
All in all it sounds like a good starting point for a campaign, if someone chooses.
What I am hoping is that we get some ideas of conflict outside of Tyr and more than just desert survival. That's all well and good and has it's place but it would be nice to hear about some of the plans of the other SKs and how that conflict might play out. Again, to me that's part of the design of a setting. You can't just describe what is there, there needs to be conflict. That's me.
As to the excerpt itself, at first I was unsure of the population numbers. I suppose this could work. If we assume the Tyr area is at the point where it can't support many more people, it makes me wonder if there aren't other reasons for the rules the SKs set up. For example, maybe the gladitorial games were a form of population control for food purposes? The region just supports the total people there and if it gets to be too much, some people will have less food. Maybe that's why the cities fight from time to time, again a form of population control.
Heh. Maybe we can take a note from Firefly and several adventures are based on getting basic food and medical supplies, such as they are, back to a place! It would certainly make sense! (I'm thinking of the Train Job episode, where the group has to make the choice between finishing the contract and get what they were hired to get, even though it's desperately needed where it was going.)
This is a dream of mine but it would be cool if there were a) rituals of how to replenish the land and expand the green areas and b) an electronic map that DMs could alter for their own campaigns of what happens.
Still excited for the books to be released!
turlough
It is not until Amber Enchantress, in my opinion, that the Prism Pentad starts to go too far. That brings in the Rajaat lore, the Champions, the Dark Lens, and the Pristine Tower. After this is when we start to see SKs and the Dragon being bumped off.
If this is going to be Ultimate Dark Sun, I think that the Freedom adventure and the Verdant Passage novel are a great place to start the divergence.
Language: Elven"
Interestingly, it looks like the majority of people in Tyr speak Elven? I find that a little strange. Any thoughts/insights?
"Associated Skills: Endurance, Streetwise
Language: Elven"
Interestingly, it looks like the majority of people in Tyr speak Elven? I find that a little strange. Any thoughts/insights?
I took that to mean that if you took the Tyr City background for your character you also got the Elven language as a benefit. Which stands to reason with Tyr's large elven population (they've got their own district and market, after all).
Given Nibenay and Lalali-Puy's writeups, I think the Kalak could kill all 15,000 people in Tyr. I wanna know how he died. Give multiple possible explanations, but don't just say "slave revolt" or "wooden spear" sex it up a bit. We may not like that ewoks destroyed chicken walkers with a falling log, but at least its something. Give me some fluff with that crunch.
"Associated Skills: Endurance, Streetwise
Language: Elven"
Interestingly, it looks like the majority of people in Tyr speak Elven? I find that a little strange. Any thoughts/insights?
I took that to mean that if you took the Tyr City background for your character you also got the Elven language as a benefit. Which stands to reason with Tyr's large elven population (they've got their own district and market, after all).
I'm pretty sure it means you get to chose one of the following if you have the Tyr background:
1) Endurance as a class skill.
2) Streetwise as a class skill.
3) +2 Endurance bonus.
4) +2 Streetwise bonus.
5) Elven as a bonus language.
"Associated Skills: Endurance, Streetwise
Language: Elven"
Interestingly, it looks like the majority of people in Tyr speak Elven? I find that a little strange. Any thoughts/insights?
I would say it looks more like the majority speak common but that Elven is common enough in the city that it makes sense to pick it up just by living there. After all, a language as a background benefit only means you have the chance to pick that in lieu of the skill bonus.
Am I the only one who thinks that they're going to leave the circumstances of Kalak's death shrouded in mystery to focus completely on the aftermath. I mean, who in the hells is Zalcor? What happened to Rikus? Kalak was impaled by a wooden spear, not some pimped out artifact designed specially to one-shot Sorcerer Kings?
Given Nibenay and Lalali-Puy's writeups, I think the Kalak could kill all 15,000 people in Tyr. I wanna know how he died. Give multiple possible explanations, but don't just say "slave revolt" or "wooden spear" sex it up a bit. We may not like that ewoks destroyed chicken walkers with a falling log, but at least its something. Give me some fluff with that crunch.
I actually find the population to be much, much too low. Considering the prevalence of death, the levy (which one of the Eye on Dark Sun articles in Dungeon hinted was still around), etc, that is a tiny population. Ancient Rome had over 400,000 people. Granted, that was a huge city, and most cities didn't exceed 100,000, but still. I think 50,000+ would be much more reasonable.
I'm pretty sure it means you get to chose one of the following if you have the Tyr background:
1) Endurance as a class skill.
2) Streetwise as a class skill.
3) +2 Endurance bonus.
4) +2 Streetwise bonus.
5) Elven as a bonus language.
Yeah, this is what I meant. Stupid typing before thinking. =/
Am I the only one who thinks that they're going to leave the circumstances of Kalak's death shrouded in mystery to focus completely on the aftermath. I mean, who in the hells is Zalcor? What happened to Rikus? Kalak was impaled by a wooden spear, not some pimped out artifact designed specially to one-shot Sorcerer Kings?
Given Nibenay and Lalali-Puy's writeups, I think the Kalak could kill all 15,000 people in Tyr. I wanna know how he died. Give multiple possible explanations, but don't just say "slave revolt" or "wooden spear" sex it up a bit. We may not like that ewoks destroyed chicken walkers with a falling log, but at least its something. Give me some fluff with that crunch.
I actually find the population to be much, much too low. Considering the prevalence of death, the levy (which one of the Eye on Dark Sun articles in Dungeon hinted was still around), etc, that is a tiny population. Ancient Rome had over 400,000 people. Granted, that was a huge city, and most cities didn't exceed 100,000, but still. I think 50,000+ would be much more reasonable.
The population seems to have gone up from before. According to Veiled Alliance (pg 23):
Tyr
Population: 12,000 (70% humans, 10% dwarf, 6% mul, 3% elf, 1% half-elf, 9% half-giant, 1% halfling, a few thri-kreen)
As far as Kalak being killed with a wooden spear, they never say it wasn't a wooden artifact spear. But the common spectators and slaves would have seen a wooden spear, nothing more.
I'm pretty sure it means you get to chose one of the following if you have the Tyr background:
1) Endurance as a class skill.
2) Streetwise as a class skill.
3) +2 Endurance bonus.
4) +2 Streetwise bonus.
5) Elven as a bonus language.
Yeah, this is what I meant. Stupid typing before thinking. =/
Okay... I guess. I didn't know Tyr's Elven market was so much mor eprominent than other cities. I assumed that the Elves in the market would speak common - and Elves get the Common and Elven languages without a Background. Non-Elves would have a troubling time picking up the language because... Elves like their language and their secrets.
Anyways... not a big deal. Just wierd.
I'm pretty sure it means you get to chose one of the following if you have the Tyr background:
1) Endurance as a class skill.
2) Streetwise as a class skill.
3) +2 Endurance bonus.
4) +2 Streetwise bonus.
5) Elven as a bonus language.
Yeah, this is what I meant. Stupid typing before thinking. =/
Okay... I guess. I didn't know Tyr's Elven market was so much mor eprominent than other cities. I assumed that the Elves in the market would speak common - and Elves get the Common and Elven languages without a Background. Non-Elves would have a troubling time picking up the language because... Elves like their language and their secrets.
Anyways... not a big deal. Just wierd.
I would think of it like living in a town near the Mexican border in real life. You are going to hear a lot of both languages regardless of which one is your native tongue, and it wouldn't be at all hard to find people who speak both for any of a variety of reasons.
And as for the wooden spear, I think if they were going to write"Rikus, in the Arena, with the Spear" they would've said that rather than downplaying the assassination.
Am I the only one who thinks that they're going to leave the circumstances of Kalak's death shrouded in mystery to focus completely on the aftermath. I mean, who in the hells is Zalcor? What happened to Rikus? Kalak was impaled by a wooden spear, not some pimped out artifact designed specially to one-shot Sorcerer Kings?
Given Nibenay and Lalali-Puy's writeups, I think the Kalak could kill all 15,000 people in Tyr. I wanna know how he died. Give multiple possible explanations, but don't just say "slave revolt" or "wooden spear" sex it up a bit. We may not like that ewoks destroyed chicken walkers with a falling log, but at least its something. Give me some fluff with that crunch.
I actually find the population to be much, much too low. Considering the prevalence of death, the levy (which one of the Eye on Dark Sun articles in Dungeon hinted was still around), etc, that is a tiny population. Ancient Rome had over 400,000 people. Granted, that was a huge city, and most cities didn't exceed 100,000, but still. I think 50,000+ would be much more reasonable.
The population seems to have gone up from before. According to Veiled Alliance (pg 23):
Tyr
Population: 12,000 (70% humans, 10% dwarf, 6% mul, 3% elf, 1% half-elf, 9% half-giant, 1% halfling, a few thri-kreen)
Oh, I know. :D I actually did adjust those population numbers across the board for my campaigns. I understand that even some of the smaller Greek city-states had populations of about 10-15,000. But these Athasian city-states are meant to be, essentially, last bastions of civilizations. They should be a bit more concentrated, and more akin to the larger city-states (Athens had like 200,000 people).
Oh, I know. :D I actually did adjust those population numbers across the board for my campaigns. I understand that even some of the smaller Greek city-states had populations of about 10-15,000. But these Athasian city-states are meant to be, essentially, last bastions of civilizations. They should be a bit more concentrated, and more akin to the larger city-states (Athens had like 200,000 people).
Halflings breed like rabbits. They're filling in the population where you calculations don't make sense. Secondly, census-Tyr actually only counts each Halfling as a 1/2 person... less if they're eating people.
Oh, I know. :D I actually did adjust those population numbers across the board for my campaigns. I understand that even some of the smaller Greek city-states had populations of about 10-15,000. But these Athasian city-states are meant to be, essentially, last bastions of civilizations. They should be a bit more concentrated, and more akin to the larger city-states (Athens had like 200,000 people).
When I reread those numbers I was also struck at how low they were. The numbers are pretty stable between the Veiled Alliance and Revised boxed set.
Balic: 27,500 (VA), 28,000 (Revised)
Draj: 15,000 (VA and Revised)
Gulg: 8,500 (VA), 12,000 (Revised)
Nibenay: 24,000 (VA), 25,000 (Revised)
Raam: 40,000 (VA and Revised)
Tyr: 12,000 (VA) or 15,000 (Revised)
Urik: 32,000 (VA) or 30,000 (Revised
Saragar: 30,000, 40,000 total in the last sea region (Revised)
Kurn: 18,000 (Revised)
Eldaarich: 21,000 (Revised)
I don't want to go through individual slave tribes or bandit states, but they're numbered in the tens or hundreds at best.
I guess these last bastions of civilization were small to emphasize that Athas really is a blasted and dying world. Now, if the dragon's levy each year really is about 1000 slaves, that's not an insignificant portion of the population of any of the cities... Now I've got a few plot ideas cooking up in the ol' brainpan...
Now, if the dragon's levy each year really is about 1000 slaves, that's not an insignificant portion of the population of any of the cities...
Taking those city population figures at face value and subtracting 1000 people per city per year for the levy produces ludicrous results. Even if every woman in every city popped out babies as fast as physically possible, every city except maybe Raam and Urik would still be depopulated in a few decades. Those population numbers are just stupidly low.
To put those numbers in context, the number given for Raam is about half the population of the historical Uruk at its height (in around 3000 BC). The number given for Gulg is about the same population as the historical Nippur a thousand or so years later, which was a relatively small city for the time. 'Large' cities in the bronze age (probably the closest real-world tech-level equivalent to Athas) had populations in the 60,000 to 80,000 range.
Roughly 15,000 within the city walls, and about as many in the noble estates and villages of the Tyr valley. So there are around 30,000 Tyrians.
Still not a lot though.
The weird part is that it lists 5,000 members in the Guard, which doesn't include private soldiers of nobles and merchant houses. That is about ten times what is should be able to feasibly support.
www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_2010...
Doesn't mean it's canon as it could just be a piece of art alongside suggestions for how Kalak was removed from power, but I thought i'd remind.
As far as how Kalak died... remember they did release that piece of art with a king getting slain by a wooden spear.
www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_2010...
Doesn't mean it's canon as it could just be a piece of art alongside suggestions for how Kalak was removed from power, but I thought i'd remind.
as someone who does not remember, was it just a wooden spear int he novels??
It was an all kinds of special, though I don't know how much of it's backstory is going to be relevant in 4E. Halflings made it out of a tree from the Blue Age or something such. It's much more potent than any normal spear, wooden or metal.
Since Borys the Dragon would not want to encourage the other Champions to compete with him, I cannot help but think that he must have regulated the size and frequency of the levy so as to keep the population of each city-state approximately static. Knowing this, the Sorcerer Kings may have encouraged violent deaths among their subjects because intermittent deaths not caused by them over the course of a year would create fewer problems than an increased levy would.
Roughly 15,000 within the city walls, and about as many in the noble estates and villages of the Tyr valley. So there are around 30,000 Tyrians.
Hmm... taking 1000 per year out of that is a 3.33% mortality rate, on top of the 'natural' mortality rate. 3.33% would be a very high mortality rate on its own. 4-5% is about the highest long-term sustained mortality rate in our history (since that's the maximum sustainable human birth rate, which is biologically fixed). So those figures are still not really plausible, given how "nasty, brutish and short" life on Athas is supposed to be even without the Levy.
The weird part is that it lists 5,000 members in the Guard, which doesn't include private soldiers of nobles and merchant houses. That is about ten times what is should be able to feasibly support.
If you're comparing to real-world figures for this, remember to adjust for the different attitudes to gender roles. Until modern times, women serving in a military capacity was very rare in our world, but such would not be the case on Athas. You could potentially almost double the number of military personnel a given population could support in Athas relative to our world.
At least, you could if we weren't assuming every woman in the Athasian city-states is perpetually pregnant just to make the population figures seem less ridiculous...
;)
Oh, I know. :D I actually did adjust those population numbers across the board for my campaigns. I understand that even some of the smaller Greek city-states had populations of about 10-15,000. But these Athasian city-states are meant to be, essentially, last bastions of civilizations. They should be a bit more concentrated, and more akin to the larger city-states (Athens had like 200,000 people).
When I reread those numbers I was also struck at how low they were. The numbers are pretty stable between the Veiled Alliance and Revised boxed set.
Balic: 27,500 (VA), 28,000 (Revised)
Draj: 15,000 (VA and Revised)
Gulg: 8,500 (VA), 12,000 (Revised)
Nibenay: 24,000 (VA), 25,000 (Revised)
Raam: 40,000 (VA and Revised)
Tyr: 12,000 (VA) or 15,000 (Revised)
Urik: 32,000 (VA) or 30,000 (Revised
Saragar: 30,000, 40,000 total in the last sea region (Revised)
Kurn: 18,000 (Revised)
Eldaarich: 21,000 (Revised)
I don't want to go through individual slave tribes or bandit states, but they're numbered in the tens or hundreds at best.
I guess these last bastions of civilization were small to emphasize that Athas really is a blasted and dying world. Now, if the dragon's levy each year really is about 1000 slaves, that's not an insignificant portion of the population of any of the cities... Now I've got a few plot ideas cooking up in the ol' brainpan...
A rule of thumb in history for non-industrialized societies is that it takes 9 agrarian workers to support one non-aggrarian person. If the above numbers represented people who lived within the city walls then for convience sake- since it is a desert world- mulitply that number by ten for aggrarian workers that are also part of the city.
Cities in the ancient world were not just cities but city- states. They included the urban center and its rural hinterlands that supported the city. The rural land was the territories that city-states fought each other for. Basically they fought over more land that allowed for more food and hence a greater population. It is no coincidence that the three most powerful city-states of ancient Greece were Athens, Sparta, and Syracuse which had the largest territories by far of all the other states.
The question that interests me about the seven cities is are their cities based on a river-irrigation system like the other desert peoples of ancient times the Sumerians/Babylonians and Eygptians.
This would seen like the only way people could live in the desert in any numbers to support a city.
Therefore the maintenance of the system and access to water would be the dominant role of the state. Such constuction and maintenance of irrigation systems also explain why they developed centralized, bureacratic societies so early. Much like how the Sorcerer Kings could have come into power and maintain their rule.
As far as how Kalak died... remember they did release that piece of art with a king getting slain by a wooden spear.
www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_2010...
Doesn't mean it's canon as it could just be a piece of art alongside suggestions for how Kalak was removed from power, but I thought i'd remind.
as someone who does not remember, was it just a wooden spear int he novels??
I just finished the Verdant Passage not to long ago, the Heartwood Spear was pretty powerful, whoever held it was immune to all but the most powerful sorcerous or psionic attacks, and it slid through mundane armor like it wasn't even there.
Since there are a couple of ruined city-states in the Tyr region, I would imagine that this situation has happened before -- but Tyr could (if the events of the Prism Pentad actually play out) be the first city-state doomed by the Dragon to escape its otherwise inevitable fate.
If you consider those numbers too low you could say they have as many people as you like. If you have somethung against contradicting the book, assume those numbers count for citizens, not slaves
Yeah, that's my thought too. It's really unlikely that anyone at my table (self included) will care about exact population numbers. So, in short, all we really need to know is that Tyr has "An awful lot" of people, Gulg has "A lot but not nearly as many as Tyr", etc.