Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 BleuDarkHeart Mar 22, 2011 19:18:55	I also posted to rules but wanted to be thorough Ok so there was an argument about this during game.  We are playing Dark Sun and we are 7th level. Heres the hypothetical questions we couldnt agree on.   I have an weapon that does a 1d12 on a crit.  Do i get 2d12 cause i am 7th and my inherent bonus is +2 or only 2d6? I have a weapon that does "none" on a crit.  Do I get to take the 2d6 from my inherent bonus if i crit? I have a weapon that does "Slowed (save ends)" on a crit.  Do I get to take the 2d6 from my inherent bonus if i crit instead and get to choose at the time of crit which to do? I have a weapon that does 2d6 fire on a crit.  Do I get to to choose between normal 2d6 or 2d6 fire if i crit? Anything with page citation or official word would be great. Thanks
#2 angelus_obscura Mar 22, 2011 23:32:59	First, the extra damage you get from critical hits only applies to attacks that deal damage. If you are wielding a magical weapon while the Fixed Enhancement Bonus rules are in effect (ie Dark Sun), you would apply the extra damage from the highest enhancement. ie Say you crit with a magic weapon +1, but you're level 7 and so have a FEB of +2, then you would apply the +2d6 from the inherent bonus. However, if you had a vicious weapon +1 and you wanted to use that, then you cannot use the +2 FEB for your +1 magic crit property and get +2 vicious damage. You pick one or the other, not both. If a weapon has the high crit property, it deals MAX +1[W] damage (+2[W] @ paragon, +3[W] @ epic) "in addition to any critical damage the weapon supplies if it is a magic weapon". - PHB 217 The little footnote below the Fixed Enhancement Bonuses chart in the DSCS specifically states that you deal +1d6 per plus of the inherent bonus enhancements, which is clearly not magical in nature. (DSCS 209) Therefore, you apply both the high crit die and the FEB crit dice. ie a 7th level PC crits with his non-magical puchik (katar) and deals 6(max) + 1d6(high crit) + 2d6(from fixed enhancement) + misc mods like ability, feats, etc
#3 windlane Mar 23, 2011 17:25:59	The annoyance of "now which bonus applies here?" thing that happens with Inherent Bonuses and magic items is why I'm doing it a lot differently in my Dark Sun campaign. Weapons won't give pluses to hit or damage, they'll simply give an extra effect. I've always liked the idea that a character that finds a magic weapon wouldn't be constantly trading it off for the next best thing, it'd be a symbol that would become as synonymous as the character's own name. The trade off becomes that normal magic item progression has the pluses increasing at a faster rate than they do with inherent bonuses. But by stripping to hit/damage bonuses out of weapons entirely makes the finding of a magic weapon in a low magic setting like Dark Sun all the more special and lasting. You rid yourself the swap meet feel of magic items in D&D and restore some of the old luster of "Wow! It's a magical sword?! Awesome!"
#4 reddrakk Mar 24, 2011 0:07:42	WindLane, I'm trying to understand what you're doing because it sounds interesting.  In your game, rather than getting a +2 Flaming Sword you'd give them a sword with the Flaming property but no +2 magical enhancement bonus? Do you put in a level limit to the magic items that the players can get (so they don't end up with a magical item property far above what they should have)?
#5 windlane Mar 24, 2011 17:10:00	You've got the right idea. You just give the weapon (or neck slot or armor) property but no bonus. Don't give out certain properties until a level appropriate equivalent has come up. The nice thing is that you're cutting down on the number of magical items that you have to deal with since you're no longer figuring out every iteration of an item, merely the first iteration of it. As an example, say someone just found a carnage weapon, I'd simply rewrite the item like so: Carnage Weapon          Level 3 Weapon: Axe, heavy blade, mace Critical: +1d12 damage per attack/damage fixed enhancement bonus Property: When you roll the maximum result on at least one of this weapon's damage dice, the target takes extra damage equal to twice the wielder's attack/damage fixed enhancement bonus. Some care does need to be taken since weapons might see their higher level versions happening after the fixed enhancement bonus increases, like it does for carnage weapons, but that's something that you can adjust at your discretion. You could simply say that it takes a level at the new fixed enhancement bonus before the weapon becomes attuned to the increase in skill, or you could simply just let it slide since it's only happening a level after the fixed enhancement increase. Some weapons due get their pluses much later than the fixed enhancement bonus increases, so more care and/or restrictions would probably be prudent, but the idea here is getting the players to want to keep what they find for a good long time. There's only one sword Frodo ever uses in Lord of the Rings. This allows players to have that same kind of relationship with an item they find extra special.
#6 -stygia- Apr 08, 2011 12:34:12	I also posted to rules but wanted to be thorough Ok so there was an argument about this during game.  We are playing Dark Sun and we are 7th level. Heres the hypothetical questions we couldnt agree on.   I have an weapon that does a 1d12 on a crit.  Do i get 2d12 cause i am 7th and my inherent bonus is +2 or only 2d6? I have a weapon that does "none" on a crit.  Do I get to take the 2d6 from my inherent bonus if i crit? I have a weapon that does "Slowed (save ends)" on a crit.  Do I get to take the 2d6 from my inherent bonus if i crit instead and get to choose at the time of crit which to do? I have a weapon that does 2d6 fire on a crit.  Do I get to to choose between normal 2d6 or 2d6 fire if i crit? Anything with page citation or official word would be great. Thanks your inherent bonus's get replaced by whatever magic weapon your using, they don't stack, unless i read that part wrong
#7 Alphastream Apr 08, 2011 15:29:13	Correct, no stacking. Take the highest of your inherent bonus or what you are wielding and use that, as if it were a 1d6 crit (per plus) weapon. If you start with that premise of just choosing one option, the rest becomes pretty clear. For example, if you qualify for +2 inherent bonus and are wielding a +1 magic weapon that does no damage on a crit, you have to choose which you will use for all situations (not mixing and matching). WindLane's idea is a fun one, and worth considering in balance with your overall campaign take on magic (Dark Sun is usually a magic-poor campaign where PCs are encouraged to break weapons and lose magic rather than hoard tons of magic gear). Also worth considering is the balance behind a magic item. An item with no crit damage is likely written that way because it is so strong in other areas. My personal preference is to provide non-item rewards that are similar to the properties of magic items. For example, a VA member might reward you with training that is a property from one of three magic items. You then can access that training and it scales with your inherent bonus. Because it is DM-driven it can achieve a nice story feel while preserving the Dark Sun feel.
#8 qorvus Apr 09, 2011 18:03:40	I like the idea of magic items not having enhancement bonuses, and relying on inherent bonuses.  Feels more Dark Sun to me.  A character may find a flaming obsidian longsword at level 1 and still be using that exact weapon at level 30.  Or he may just be using an improvised weapon at level 30, this being Dark Sun. The one downside of this is that it doesn't make metal weapons all that special - they are exactly the same as their non-metal counterparts.
#9 reddrakk Apr 10, 2011 13:25:48	"The one downside of this is that it doesn't make metal weapons all that special - they are exactly the same as their non-metal counterparts." I can agree with you there and it's a reservation I have about implementing WindLane's idea.  However, it really would depend on your players.  If your group really loves DS and wants to have the full experience than it wouldn't likely be recieved properly.  My group is composed of a few DS enthusiasts (including myself as DM) and a few others who are happy with FR style worlds and gameplay.  In my group I think WindLane's style of magical weapons would be a good compromise, though for the DS enthusiasts it kinda circumvents the "low magic" aspect of the world.  I was thinking of letting there be magical item properties in-game, but keeping the material breakage rules in effect.  If your bone club of flaming breaks you can pull the enchantment out of the remains and put it on another weapon later (if you have a ritual caster, or access to one).  That way, metal weapons retain their value but magical items can still be implemented, which makes the game more familiar and pleasant to the people who could've taken or left DS and were really only playing it because it's what I'm DMing.
#10 qorvus Apr 10, 2011 17:48:58	I had an idea that could fix a couple of problems; give metal weapons an item bonus to damage - or melee weapons at least. Bronze/iron weapons get +2 item bonus to damage Steel weapons get +4 item bonus to damage Adamantium/dwarf steel weapons get +6 item bonus to damage Even if non magical it will make them more desirable and it gets rid of every single person wanting iron armbands; other bracers and shields may actual get used for a change.
#11 Mithrus Apr 11, 2011 10:01:18	Slightly off topic, but do non-magical thrown weapons return once you get an inherent bonus? It's kinda a lose-lose issue, since a yes makes it a cheesy, where a no gimps thrown weapon users (or makes a very large bandoleer manditory).
#12 reddrakk Apr 11, 2011 10:35:55	I had an idea that could fix a couple of problems; give metal weapons an item bonus to damage - or melee weapons at least. Bronze/iron weapons get +2 item bonus to damage Steel weapons get +4 item bonus to damage Adamantium/dwarf steel weapons get +6 item bonus to damage Even if non magical it will make them more desirable and it gets rid of every single person wanting iron armbands; other bracers and shields may actual get used for a change. Interesting idea, but I think Wizards was trying to get away from a complicated materials system and keep it mostly flavor.  The optional rules in the DSCS say that non-metal weapons can break on a "1", there isn't anything else to it.  If you have an obsidian tipped longsword at level 20 and you roll a 1, it can break and you'll have to get another one.  If you had a metal sword it wouldn't have broken.  As for magical thrown weapons, that is a good point.  It would be quite annoying to have to remember where each weapon was thrown in order to retrieve it for later use in the fight.  Or to have to carry a bandoleer of weapons so you don't run out.  With WindLane's hybrid system it would be a moot point since weapons could be enchanted.  With just the alternate rewards system I guess it would depend on the DM and his/her preference for realism.
#13 windlane Apr 11, 2011 13:42:59	I prefer the weapon breakage rule that says you can reroll a 1, but a non-metallic weapon automatically breaks after the attack, and a metal weapon breaks on a roll of 5 or less. It lets 1s feel like a do-over possibility instead of an auto-fail, but there's a cost. And metal weapons help to decrease that cost.
#14 siromega Apr 11, 2011 16:41:47	My issue with the brutal breakage rule is that I know my players would never reroll in order to keep their magic weps/implements at least until they got metal ones, and even then, as soon as the firsts persons metal weapon brakes they'll probably stop doing that too. That's why I just use the fumbling breakage, and (I think someone suggested it in this thread) give magic weapons a saving throw. If anything, it just means that they'll try to invest in other magic items besides weaponry, like boots/armor/shields/glove/etc.
#15 mgbeach Apr 11, 2011 20:41:18	My issue with the brutal breakage rule is that I know my players would never reroll in order to keep their magic weps/implements at least until they got metal ones, and even then, as soon as the firsts persons metal weapon brakes they'll probably stop doing that too. That's why I just use the fumbling breakage, and (I think someone suggested it in this thread) give magic weapons a saving throw. If anything, it just means that they'll try to invest in other magic items besides weaponry, like boots/armor/shields/glove/etc. We had an awesome moment in the game I run where the party was getting beat up pretty bad and on a final, desperate attack the rogue rolled a 1 with his blood obsidian dagger, but the baddie was acting next and it was likely at least someone wouldn't survive it. So, he sacrificed the dagger and rerolled, slaying the BBEG with a massive thrust to the base of its skull, the handle of the obsidian dagger snapping off and leaving a smoldering shard of blood obsidian in the beast's brain case. Point being, with those breakage rules sure, the party will normally elect to save their magic weapon. But, especially on Athas, at the end of the day it all comes down to survival... and you can always get another dagger.
#16 Ozmodious Apr 12, 2011 7:26:50	Our homebrew for weapon breakage rules is this: On a natural 20 you roll the 20 again and 5 or less and the weapon breaks. Metal weapons don't break and all metal weapons are +2 weapons. Of course we do this thing with armor where if a character is hit with a natural 20 their armor rating drops 1. So if a character is hit by 2 natural 20's their AC is lowered by 2 points.