To prep for it, I am looking at what options I could use in the game to make it feel more like Dark Sun and less like standard d&d.
One thing I am definitely going to try is the inherent bonus system for magic items.
I know some of the questions below are really rules questions, but I am looking for opinions of Dark Sun DM's specifically, not the "RAW!" interpretation.
However, I still don't really know how these things work:
1 Masterwork armor: I suppose that you don't grant the masterwork armor bonus on top of the inherent bonus. This will then affect paragon and epic level play significantly for heavy armor users. The DM almost has to include some magical armor for the PC's to have competitive AC.
2 Dual Implement spellcaster: Do you get the offhand inherent bonus if you wield two mundane implements? I suppose it would have to work this way for the feat to actually be of any use.
3 Thrown weapons don't return unless they are really magical - I suppose this is how it should work. However, it puts much more pressure for thrown weapon users to pick up quick draw or something like that. I suppose it does not hurt, but do you play it this way?
4 References to enchantment bonus on items (Stuff like staff of ruin +1). Does it give only +1 to damage, even if the characters have higher inherent bonus? I suppose they do.
5 How to deal with low level items that have properties or powers that don't scale much? There is very little difference between the item at low levels and high levels. I guess I could just ignore this if I don't let the PC's craft freely. Seems odd that a flaming sword +1 is practically as good as a flaming sword +3 when the inherent bonus is 3 or more - you get to change your damage to fire anyway and the daily ability is less likely to have significant impact.
I guess I just have to avoid selling and enchanting items and use some other kind of system for that.
My alternative reward system goes like this (at least how I see it until now)
- 1/3 the normal amount of magic items, more cash to be used for in-game purposes other than magic items.(but see below)
- More consumable items to make up for less items.
- Boons to make up for some of the items.
As for making enchanting useful, but not overtly powerful, I will make part of the items I grant to be in form of special components. Each component can be used to make only one item of a given level and there is a limited set of items you could make out of it.
Example. Characters manage to kill a dragon (not really a DS example but you get the point).
They take its hide and bones. Now they have two components. The hide they can use to make a level 8 suit of armor from leather to scale armor in terms of mechanics. The bones can be used to make a Weapon or an Implement of level 9.
I just gave them two magic items, and give them some control over what they are. Still, they can't just make 5 lower level items instead of one major one (tempting in DS) because you'd have to keep the components whole.
Also, it kind of keeps the wish list out of the game, which (to me) is not really fitting well to a DS game. The characters can decide what they want to make out of the components.
I would also leave out residuum entirely. No residuum, no disenchant, no transfer enchantment.
I might allow certain found items to be used as components to make new items - for example you might use a magical dagger of level 9 to make a magic spear of level 9 (seems fitting to me).
So, any thoughts on this? What is your own system for handling magic items in a Dark Sun campaign?
I wouldn't obsess in finding a working system now. The inherent bonus system is fundamentally a safety net - it makes sure the characters have the bonuses to hit and survive almost anything, while you work out exactly how much magic you want. I'm gonna experiment on the run, and see how my game evolves, and decide how many magic items to give depending on what I feel would make the game more fun. The inherent bonus system will allow me to do so without screwing up my group.
My idea is to find out stuff from people that is based on actual game experience using the inherent bonus system. If there are some specific issues that I might find out before we start, I'd be happy.
Sure, I will in any case end up adjusting things on the fly - that is a given.
I also want to give my players an idea how it might affect the characters. If someone wants to play a thrown weapon specialist, and suddenly there are no "returning" weapons to be found, he might be surprised. If I told him beforehand, and he took quick draw, he will be prepared.
So, I will DM my first Dark Sun game some time this year probably.
To prep for it, I am looking at what options I could use in the game to make it feel more like Dark Sun and less like standard d&d.
One thing I am definitely going to try is the inherent bonus system for magic items.
I know some of the questions below are really rules questions, but I am looking for opinions of Dark Sun DM's specifically, not the "RAW!" interpretation.
However, I still don't really know how these things work:
1 Masterwork armor: I suppose that you don't grant the masterwork armor bonus on top of the inherent bonus. This will then affect paragon and epic level play significantly for heavy armor users. The DM almost has to include some magical armor for the PC's to have competitive AC.
The inherant bonus simply replaces the magical enhancement bonus, you may still apply the masterwork bonus. The catch here is that you must be high enough level (ie have the + inherant bonus number) to qualify for the masterwork. If you want masterwork armour that requires a +3 enchantment, then you must be of the level that gives you a +3 inherant bonus. This way, the math doesnt change and no one loses out on armour.
2 Dual Implement spellcaster: Do you get the offhand inherent bonus if you wield two mundane implements? I suppose it would have to work this way for the feat to actually be of any use.
the inherant bonus is to your attack, not the item itself, that way it doesnt matter what kind of items you are weilding.
3 Thrown weapons don't return unless they are really magical - I suppose this is how it should work. However, it puts much more pressure for thrown weapon users to pick up quick draw or something like that. I suppose it does not hurt, but do you play it this way?
Thrown items should not return unless actually magical. encourages people to carry more than 1 dagger.
4 References to enchantment bonus on items (Stuff like staff of ruin +1). Does it give only +1 to damage, even if the characters have higher inherent bonus? I suppose they do.
5 How to deal with low level items that have properties or powers that don't scale much? There is very little difference between the item at low levels and high levels. I guess I could just ignore this if I don't let the PC's craft freely. Seems odd that a flaming sword +1 is practically as good as a flaming sword +3 when the inherent bonus is 3 or more - you get to change your damage to fire anyway and the daily ability is less likely to have significant impact.
I guess I just have to avoid selling and enchanting items and use some other kind of system for that.
This is the beauty of the iherant (and darksun) system. You dont need to always be searching for the next +1 higher weapon. If a character finds a flaming scimitar, awesome ! This way a magic item actually means something, and they have found an item that they may use for the next 10 or 15 levels. This means less work for the dm hunting down a bunch of magic items to give out every session. If a player only gets 1 magic item every 3 levels, thats fine because they are more rare, special, and they dont suffer mechanically for not getting them.
I think your rewards system sounds great, boons are fun, favors from powerful figures are intruiging, and limiting enchanting fits with the theme.
The fun thing about dark sun is that in reguars to inherant bonuses and low magic is that, at level 19, you can pick up a broken tree branch and half a broken door and still do battle effectively.
5 How to deal with low level items that have properties or powers that don't scale much? There is very little difference between the item at low levels and high levels. I guess I could just ignore this if I don't let the PC's craft freely. Seems odd that a flaming sword +1 is practically as good as a flaming sword +3 when the inherent bonus is 3 or more - you get to change your damage to fire anyway and the daily ability is less likely to have significant impact.
The sticking point is that your flaming sword +1 still only only does one die of extra damage on a critical even if your inherent bonus is +5.
The sticking point is that your flaming sword +1 still only only does one die of extra damage on a critical even if your inherent bonus is +5.
No, you get +1d6 per +1 per the Dark Sun Campaign Guide.
For example:
A character successfully crit three times in a given encounter, suddenly his weapon is so drenched in blood that the stains of blood cannot be washed away properly, and looks like its always drippring blood from it. Now THATparticular weapon is a VICIOUS or a GREAT HUNGER weapon with an enchantment bonus equal to the wielder's inherent bonus, but after 5 levels of playing this weapon is now a normal weapon.
Particular events can 'enchant' weapons in Athas, there is no god to put 'magic' in control, strange things happen.
Masterwork Armours can be given to players, or made in some fashion, like any other armour, but without its enchantment bonus. Just be sure they'll be getting their masterwork armours when their Inherent Bonuses are close, near or above the minimum required to actually have such armours in the normal ruling.
Magical itens (non-weapon-armor) don't necessarily have to be magic, an Iron ArmBands of power might be a really mean looking bracer with razors and spikes.
Thrown Weapons don't return, unless they say so. That's why Chatktcha is there, a Thrown Weapon that returns after you throw it.
No, you get +1d6 per +1 per the Dark Sun Campaign Guide.
Ah. They've fixed it
And they've made them not stack... excellent. I'll reference THIS page instead of the DMG2 from now on...I would suggest taking a look at the preview.
In summary, it expects players will receive one "Rare" item for each tier. These items will be the players' trademark: The Scourge of Rkard, The Silencer, Sadira's Amber Skin Enchantment, etc... These items have stronger and more useful powers that players would introduce in "Big Boss" fights as well as enhancements and properties that mess well with players' powers.
Uncommon and common items are those can provide small property bonuses for players. If you're using the inherient bonus rules, you might consider foregoing common (and maybe uncommon) items completely.
You can make boons "uncommon" and "rare". I'm going to make each player individually quest for their particular boon (dragging the rest of the party with them). Hopefully, the splash factor of these items will warrent the time I spend customizing and creating them. When I say "item", I can also mean set items. Dual wielding players need two weapons. Bow rangers need a bow and ammunition. Fighters can have a gauntlet/sword/shield set, etc...
Everything else they own will be a common item. Normal items have no properties (for example, thrown weapons don't return). On the flip side, I love the idea of players "mutating" and adapting to the environment. Players can develop their own wild talents through experience (as a "common" or "uncommon" reward from me). For example, I might give a Paragon tier throwing weapons character the wild talent to return weapons by themselves as a free-action (or a minor to collect them all).
Bonuses from magic items do not stack with inherent bonuses.
If they want to be a weapon thrower, let them use a chatkcha, it has a boomerang effect.
2 Dual Implement spellcaster: Do you get the offhand inherent bonus if you wield two mundane implements? I suppose it would have to work this way for the feat to actually be of any use.the inherant bonus is to your attack, not the item itself, that way it doesnt matter what kind of items you are weilding.
Wow, and I thought inherent bonuses were like free enchantment bonuses given to players, thus Dual Implement Spellcasters would automatically benefit from two mundane implements *shrug*. Still, it's not like Dual Implement Spellcaster is going to be useless, unless the players really won't be seeing magic items for a LONG time... it's just that they'd probably want to leave it alone 'till late heroic or even late Paragon, since [1] they wouldn't find much magic items 'till then, and [2] from what I understand magic item enhancement bonus wouldn't improve as you level up -- the bonuses from it, and inherent bonuses don't stack, so you can use a +1 magic deathbone wand at level 9 and have +2 to hit and damage instead of +1, but when you wield it in the offhand for dual implement spellcaster, it's just +1 to damage rolls -- so unless you really want that +1 damage, you'll probably lay off the dual implement spellcaster until you get at least a +2 implement. Just my thoughts
3 Thrown weapons don't return unless they are really magical - I suppose this is how it should work. However, it puts much more pressure for thrown weapon users to pick up quick draw or something like that. I suppose it does not hurt, but do you play it this way?Thrown items should not return unless actually magical. encourages people to carry more than 1 dagger.
Also makes things like Xen'drik boomerang (should you allow that weapon from Eberron setting into Dark Sun) and thrown weapons that inherently return upon each attack, much more valuable, and likely worth the feat for getting it.
4 References to enchantment bonus on items (Stuff like staff of ruin +1). Does it give only +1 to damage, even if the characters have higher inherent bonus? I suppose they do.
5 How to deal with low level items that have properties or powers that don't scale much? There is very little difference between the item at low levels and high levels. I guess I could just ignore this if I don't let the PC's craft freely. Seems odd that a flaming sword +1 is practically as good as a flaming sword +3 when the inherent bonus is 3 or more - you get to change your damage to fire anyway and the daily ability is less likely to have significant impact.
I guess I just have to avoid selling and enchanting items and use some other kind of system for that.
The way I understand it, when you have enhancement bonuses on items, versus the inherent bonuses, the bonuses that would give you the higher attack & damage bonuses takes precedence. Not sure how Vicious weapons would grant its critical bonus, but I suppose if you had a +1 Vicious weapon and a +3 inherent bonus, you'd have to choose between 1d12 per crit, and 3d6 per crit.
If an 18 INT Wizard gets a +1 Staff of Ruin at level 1, by level 7 he'd be going at +9 to hit (half level [3] + Int [4] + inherent bonus [2]), and +7 to damage (Int [4] + inherent bonus [2] + item bonus [1]) with his wizard spells. Not as straightforward as simply treating inherent bonuses as enhancement bonuses, but it's definitely a more elegantly balanced solution
As for the Flaming Weapon issue, it really is that good. Makes magic items far less necessary in the game.
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Actually there's a Wild Talent, Telekinetic Grasp, that'd be useful for thrown weapon users, so long as they target someone within 5 squares of them. Standard Action throw, minor action pick up thrown weapon with your mind and bring it back to your square, minor action to pick it up. Virtually the same as moving to the square it's in and picking it up, but at least you don't have to keep changing your position. Quick drawing stuff or using Fast Hands at level 2 might be better (especially if you have both), but anybody can pick up a Wild Talent, especially if at DM discretion players could pick it up for free
However, I still don't really know how these things work:
1 Masterwork armor: I suppose that you don't grant the masterwork armor bonus on top of the inherent bonus.
Yes you do.
3 Thrown weapons don't return unless they are really magical - I suppose this is how it should work. However, it puts much more pressure for thrown weapon users to pick up quick draw or something like that. I suppose it does not hurt, but do you play it this way?
Correct but if you read about the Chatkcha pg 120, you'll see it returns to a proficient wielder's hand after he ranged attack is thrown (without needing to be magical). It's only a Military Weapon so lots of characters already start proficient and being a light blade works with rogue powers. Think like the bomerang in Mad Max 2. I would be tempted to add this to the Rogue's list of proficient weapons.
My view in general is that the dual implement spellcaster feat is kind of the replacement for the missing weapon focus type feat for implement users. It sadly just does not work too well in Dark Sun.
I suppose it would not really be too powerful to add the inherent bonus to damage when wielding two mundane or lower level magic implements, but I will have to see what the character builder does if I try it.
My view in general is that the dual implement spellcaster feat is kind of the replacement for the missing weapon focus type feat for implement users. It sadly just does not work too well in Dark Sun.
I suppose it would not really be too powerful to add the inherent bonus to damage when wielding two mundane or lower level magic implements, but I will have to see what the character builder does if I try it.
Actually, I'd consider the Superior Implement Training [implement that provides +1/+2/+3 damage to damage rolls] as the "replacement for the missing weapon focus type feat for implement users", given that Weapon Focus adds the exact same amount of damage.
My view in general is that the dual implement spellcaster feat is kind of the replacement for the missing weapon focus type feat for implement users. It sadly just does not work too well in Dark Sun.
I suppose it would not really be too powerful to add the inherent bonus to damage when wielding two mundane or lower level magic implements, but I will have to see what the character builder does if I try it.
Actually, I'd consider the Superior Implement Training [implement that provides +1/+2/+3 damage to damage rolls] as the "replacement for the missing weapon focus type feat for implement users", given that Weapon Focus adds the exact same amount of damage.
That is how I saw it first too, but weapon users don't have to choose between the focus or using +3 proficiency weapons instead of +2.
Anyway, does not really matter. I will have some time to think about it before the game starts.
I would be tempted to add this to the Rogue's list of proficient weapons.
I will be replacing the rogue's hand crossbow proficiency with chatkcha proficiency when I DM a DarkSun game. Hand crossbows don't really fit as common weapons on Athas, IMO, since it'd be tricky to make one without metal. I also intend to let it count as a crossbow for the purposes of the Sharpshooter Talent feature.
Instead of just giving someone a spear that turns into a lightning bolt once a day when you throw it, the party has to do a quest for, or negotiate with some legendary mystic who will *grant* a person the ability to use this magic with any heavy thrown weapon. (More role-playing!) The weapons themselves will be ordinary bone or obsidian. If there is a truly magic weapon involved, it should be the subject of a major quest, and players will learn of its uses and seek it out specifically - like the Heartwood spear.
This seems to fit in well in my mind with inherent bonuses. They are technically learned, not found as a treasure. Anyway, that is how I see it working in my mind. But once again as someone else said, I have to run it a bit to see how it goes.
Another idea was consumables being primary magic. Alchemical pots and Ritual brewed potions should take a more prominent role in the absense of an abundance of magic. Alchemy/Potions have always been around, some effective, some not, in most settings. I don't think they unbalance things here if you start using Inherent bonuses.
I would be tempted to add this to the Rogue's list of proficient weapons.
I will be replacing the rogue's hand crossbow proficiency with chatkcha proficiency when I DM a DarkSun game. Hand crossbows don't really fit as common weapons on Athas, IMO, since it'd be tricky to make one without metal. I also intend to let it count as a crossbow for the purposes of the Sharpshooter Talent feature.
The Chatkcha was mainly a Thri-Kreen weapon, created and used by the Thri-Kreen race - the three bladed boomerang fit the three fingered race perfectly. Most other races can learn how to use the Chatkcha, but they usually end up using more "human" weapons - swords, clubs, bows and spears. Halflings, on the other hand, have their own set of weapons - spears, blowguns, darts, etc... I would suggest "not" losing the thri-kreen flavor of the Chatkcha, and instead go for a more "jungle" weapon for Halflings, like the blowgun (available in the Dragon article: Art of the Kill) or even the sling.
The DMG, on page 126, says if you have four PCs then remove parcel 3. If these four are in Dark Sun, do I remove parcels 1, 3, and 4?
The Chatkcha was mainly a Thri-Kreen weapon, created and used by the Thri-Kreen race - the three bladed boomerang fit the three fingered race perfectly.
Elves seem to make use of them as well in 4e (elf snipers carry 10 each).
Most other races can learn how to use the Chatkcha, but they usually end up using more "human" weapons - swords, clubs, bows and spears.
Most of which can't be used with rogue powers or sneak attack.
Halflings, on the other hand, have their own set of weapons - spears, blowguns, darts, etc... I would suggest "not" losing the thri-kreen flavor of the Chatkcha, and instead go for a more "jungle" weapon for Halflings, like the blowgun (available in the Dragon article: Art of the Kill) or even the sling.
Again, AFAIK, none of these weapons (except for the sling) are useful to rogues.
If I want a 'standard' rogue weapon to take the place of the hand crossbow on Athas, the chatkcha seems to be it. We use the CB, and it is much easier to houserule in an extra weapon proficiency than it is to find some way of getting the CB to accept a javelin (for example) as a legitimate rogue weapon.
Again, AFAIK, none of these weapons (except for the sling) are useful to rogues.
If I want a 'standard' rogue weapon to take the place of the hand crossbow on Athas, the chatkcha seems to be it. We use the CB, and it is much easier to houserule in an extra weapon proficiency than it is to find some way of getting the CB to accept a javelin (for example) as a legitimate rogue weapon.
You're right. Spears don't make sense. The Chatkcha is much bigger than an Shiruken (like the size of a frisbee disc or boomerang), it's not as ideal of a choice as you might think. but there are options:
Read the Art of the Kill, Dragon 373. The Blowgun can replace a sling/crossbow for Rogues. It requires a multiclass feat... there are several simple ways to houserule it well. There's a Garrote for a brute rogue.
There are many types of Daggers to use also.