Inside the chest of every Avagion - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Inside the chest of every Avagion

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
RalofTyr
Dec 31, 2009 14:35:05 Beats the heart of a Dragon.

Now, it is possible, in thoery, to learn both Defile Magic and Perserver Magic, given your INT score, so, why can't a Dragon be a dual role Avagion? Could not their magics eventually enable one to morph into the other?
#2
Duke5150
Dec 31, 2009 17:16:31
Thats like a cleric who worships both the ravenqueen and vecna. It might work mechanically, but it flies in the face of the fluff. Avangions and Dragons are naturally enemies. There can be no balance or peace between them.
#3
phoenix_m
Jan 01, 2010 1:39:22
Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between.
#4
JohnLynch
Jan 01, 2010 16:30:24

Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between.

I never understood the hate for the revised boxed set among some. I thought, surely its just a bit more details that all sync up with the original boxed set. Having started reading the original, I now understand why some hate the revised one.

#5
divisionbyzer0
Jan 02, 2010 0:01:38 Aren't there rules for preservers who defile one too many times never being able to preserve again?

From page 123 of DS3 r7

Arcane casters who defile must roll a Will save DC 10
+ spell level + amount of times previously defiled. Failing
    this save, they become defilers. Preservers succeeding the
        save lose their preserver status and become tainted.
       Tainted wizards are not defilers, but risk becoming so.
     Tainted wizards may seek redemption from a druid. The
       druid, if willing and able, can cast a conversion spell on the
      tainted wizard, restoring her preserver status (reset the
      number of times defiled to zero). The wizard loses 100 XP
        per arcane spellcaster level. Defilers can also seek
       redemption, but lose 1000 XP per arcane spellcaster level.
     Usually the defiler must undertake a quest or otherwise
        demonstrate a true willingness to redeem herself before
        the druid casts the conversion spell.

The answer to the question is of course "no". Dragon magic is a form of advanced defiling, wherin the dragon can with aid of the Way and obsidian implements within their bodies draw the life entirely out of not only vegetation but also animals and sentient beings to power their spells, killing the defiled living things including the animals and sentient beings instantly in some cases. This is completely at odds with preservation of which the Avangion is the quintessence of-- they are entirely different beings of different natures.

I suspect there is also more material on this in Dragon Kings and Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas.

The prereqs for both "epic being" classes probably end up somehow mecanically precluding the other, besides their being conceptually diametrical.

#6
603
Jan 02, 2010 11:52:54

Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between.

I never understood the hate for the revised boxed set among some. I thought, surely its just a bit more details that all sync up with the original boxed set. Having started reading the original, I now understand why some hate the revised one.

I think it was more intended to make the Good alignments less unforgiving. Its very easy to get a permanent alignment shift toward Evil on Athas, and older rules made shifting back functionally very difficult.
To be honest, I'd house rule it as "Ok, you were a defiler at level 1 thru whatever, then you stopped Defiling and levelled the rest of the way as a Preserver. You complete the ritual to become an Avagion... and when you awaken, you find your skin has begun to turn scaly. It seems the forces of Good have decided that you had your shot at being good, blew it, and now anything you try is going to be unworthy."

Then again, I'm also the guy who would punish a Paladin under pre-4e rules for not playing like Lawful Good was the Taliban.
#7
divisionbyzer0
Jan 04, 2010 1:39:59 best to just play without alignment
#8
603
Jan 04, 2010 8:40:56
best to just play without alignment

That works in 4e and possibly 3.x. In earlier versions, though, you have definite mechanics for alignment and removing them breaks a lot of other chunks of the rules. For example, PC clerics who choose Detect Evil as a spell and like to use it as a plot breaker.
#9
turlough
Jan 04, 2010 13:56:58

Thats like a cleric who worships both the ravenqueen and vecna. It might work mechanically, but it flies in the face of the fluff. Avangions and Dragons are naturally enemies. There can be no balance or peace between them.

to the OP, I think it's covered here. The fluff of the world has said that you can be a defiler or a preserver but not both. If you have the mentality of a defiler, it will rule you. You don't care about any living things, other than yourself, and will do to anyone else whatever you can. The whole point is that preservers, and therefore avangions, haven't lost that empathy with others and try to help people. By their definition, defilers crave quick power.

turlough
#10
Tyranthraxus
Jan 06, 2010 22:15:55 Defilers are also the most common wizard type in Darksun. Defilers however are not stupid though. Sorc Kings are not stupid. They havnt gotten to where they are by being dumb. Defilers do crave quick power, but this is mainly reflected in the 2e exp table variations where Defilers didnt need as much to progresss.

You must also take not that while Sorc Kings disliker Preservers, they go out of their way to kill other Defilers. So im definetly on the view that someone is either a Defiler or Preserver. Its not so much a class choice as a morality choice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RalofTyr Dec 31, 2009 14:35:05	Beats the heart of a Dragon. Now, it is possible, in thoery, to learn both Defile Magic and Perserver Magic, given your INT score, so, why can't a Dragon be a dual role Avagion? Could not their magics eventually enable one to morph into the other?
#2 Duke5150 Dec 31, 2009 17:16:31	Thats like a cleric who worships both the ravenqueen and vecna. It might work mechanically, but it flies in the face of the fluff. Avangions and Dragons are naturally enemies. There can be no balance or peace between them.
#3 phoenix_m Jan 01, 2010 1:39:22	Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between.
#4 JohnLynch Jan 01, 2010 16:30:24	Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between. I never understood the hate for the revised boxed set among some. I thought, surely its just a bit more details that all sync up with the original boxed set. Having started reading the original, I now understand why some hate the revised one.
#5 divisionbyzer0 Jan 02, 2010 0:01:38	Aren't there rules for preservers who defile one too many times never being able to preserve again? From page 123 of DS3 r7 Arcane casters who defile must roll a Will save DC 10 + spell level + amount of times previously defiled. Failing this save, they become defilers. Preservers succeeding the save lose their preserver status and become tainted. Tainted wizards are not defilers, but risk becoming so. Tainted wizards may seek redemption from a druid. The druid, if willing and able, can cast a conversion spell on the tainted wizard, restoring her preserver status (reset the number of times defiled to zero). The wizard loses 100 XP per arcane spellcaster level. Defilers can also seek redemption, but lose 1000 XP per arcane spellcaster level. Usually the defiler must undertake a quest or otherwise demonstrate a true willingness to redeem herself before the druid casts the conversion spell. The answer to the question is of course "no". Dragon magic is a form of advanced defiling, wherin the dragon can with aid of the Way and obsidian implements within their bodies draw the life entirely out of not only vegetation but also animals and sentient beings to power their spells, killing the defiled living things including the animals and sentient beings instantly in some cases. This is completely at odds with preservation of which the Avangion is the quintessence of-- they are entirely different beings of different natures. I suspect there is also more material on this in Dragon Kings and Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas. The prereqs for both "epic being" classes probably end up somehow mecanically precluding the other, besides their being conceptually diametrical.
#6 603 Jan 02, 2010 11:52:54	Well in the revised box set, there was one who reversed the Dragon metamorphosis to become an Avagion. Otherwise I'm with Duke on this one: you can choose the living or you can choose the dieing, there is no in between. I never understood the hate for the revised boxed set among some. I thought, surely its just a bit more details that all sync up with the original boxed set. Having started reading the original, I now understand why some hate the revised one. I think it was more intended to make the Good alignments less unforgiving. Its very easy to get a permanent alignment shift toward Evil on Athas, and older rules made shifting back functionally very difficult. To be honest, I'd house rule it as "Ok, you were a defiler at level 1 thru whatever, then you stopped Defiling and levelled the rest of the way as a Preserver. You complete the ritual to become an Avagion... and when you awaken, you find your skin has begun to turn scaly. It seems the forces of Good have decided that you had your shot at being good, blew it, and now anything you try is going to be unworthy." Then again, I'm also the guy who would punish a Paladin under pre-4e rules for not playing like Lawful Good was the Taliban.
#7 divisionbyzer0 Jan 04, 2010 1:39:59	best to just play without alignment
#8 603 Jan 04, 2010 8:40:56	best to just play without alignment That works in 4e and possibly 3.x. In earlier versions, though, you have definite mechanics for alignment and removing them breaks a lot of other chunks of the rules. For example, PC clerics who choose Detect Evil as a spell and like to use it as a plot breaker.
#9 turlough Jan 04, 2010 13:56:58	Thats like a cleric who worships both the ravenqueen and vecna. It might work mechanically, but it flies in the face of the fluff. Avangions and Dragons are naturally enemies. There can be no balance or peace between them. to the OP, I think it's covered here. The fluff of the world has said that you can be a defiler or a preserver but not both. If you have the mentality of a defiler, it will rule you. You don't care about any living things, other than yourself, and will do to anyone else whatever you can. The whole point is that preservers, and therefore avangions, haven't lost that empathy with others and try to help people. By their definition, defilers crave quick power. turlough
#10 Tyranthraxus Jan 06, 2010 22:15:55	Defilers are also the most common wizard type in Darksun. Defilers however are not stupid though. Sorc Kings are not stupid. They havnt gotten to where they are by being dumb. Defilers do crave quick power, but this is mainly reflected in the 2e exp table variations where Defilers didnt need as much to progresss. You must also take not that while Sorc Kings disliker Preservers, they go out of their way to kill other Defilers. So im definetly on the view that someone is either a Defiler or Preserver. Its not so much a class choice as a morality choice.