Another thing is, would you apply different rules to different types of magic. Would you give a character ,for example, from Krynn his spell resistance against a magic missle cast by a wizard from Dark Sun, who is using an alien form of magic not native to that world?
One thing I thought about is what kind of limits would be put on a dark sun character within Athas's Crystal Sphere? There are no deities to stop something major happening, something that a god/gods/overgod would prevent from happening in sphere's that had them. Someone could destroy the entire solar system if they had enough power, or whatever else they want. Probably not crack/break the sphere though. Do you think Rajaat knows about the SK's living vortices? Regardless of which version you use (or even a combination of the two) that they got them from becoming dragons according to dragon kings, or according to the Athas timeline from Borys using the lens to augment them. Rajaat wouldn't know of them. It somewhat implies Dregoth knows of his saying he wants "Not just the simulated godhood granted by Rajaat's living vortices" this doesn't necessarily mean he knows what's giving him the ability to give his followers spells, just that knows he can.
Would you put any limits of a SK's vortex? What's to stop an SK from giving a templar earthquake after earthquake after earthquake, to level a city then taking over his mind and using them "himself?"
The closest thing Athas seems to have to a deity is vague references to a "Guardian of Athas" mentioned by Pavek. What it guards Athas against isn't made clear. Clearly not the ecological destruction of the world, but if someone perhaps were to cast a spell that would blow the planet to bits, maybe.
No Rajaat isn't divine and he would likely get the holy smackdown if he tried to take on anything much tougher than a demigod. Some of the salient divine powers would just kill him with no saving throws and 17 mile ranges or moreand the deities would know weeks in advance if he was to attack them. Some deities could also just say no you can't cast spells if he went to another world as his spellcasting would have to use that worlds magic rules.
It depends what rules you go by. 1E gods with stats wouldn't be hard for him. 2E lesser gods are described in the Legends and Lore book, not many of their powers seems to be capable of harming him. Though, it doesn't give stats for any god's true form beyond demi-gods. As for a greater god, at least they couldn't will him dead, as he isn't mortal.
It depends what rules you go by. 1E gods with stats wouldn't be hard for him. 2E lesser gods are described in the Legends and Lore book, not many of their powers seems to be capable of harming him. Though, it doesn't give stats for any god's true form beyond demi-gods. As for a greater god, at least they couldn't will him dead, as he isn't mortal.
Deities and Demigods is a 3rd ed product and Rajaat is toast if he blinks at some of those gods funny. Death gods can kill you with a look on another plane of existence, gods know the future in advance and magic gods can stop a mortal spellcaster casting spells at a whim no ifs no buts.
At best Rajaat could take out a demigod maybe a lesser god baring some sort of DM storyline involving a gods death.
I always thought that since Athasian magic doesn't tap into any sort of Weave or divinely-granted power like the moons of Krynn in dragonlance, a deity couldn't use the usual methods to prevent them from spellcasting. I always figured they did that by cutting off the caster from the local source of raw magical energy, and Athasian spellcasting doesn't draw on such forces, it is fueled by the fire of life itself.
But if Rajaat went to another world he would be subject to that worlds rules of magic. On Krynn he wouldn't be able to cast spells until he could attune himself to the moons and on Faerun his magic wouldn't work either until he figured out how to access the weave. Only on Athas can spell energy be drawn form plants and even if he could defile on another world the nature gods portfolio sense would likely trigger whenever he did so.
Either way Rajaat is basically screwed. Rajaat vs Eliminster = Rajaat wins but Rajaat vs Ioulaum or Mystra/Shar or Boccob or various nature deities= RIP Rajaat.
If Rajaat is to compaired (if) against anything it is against the personal achievements of mortals from other worlds. Rajaat was a mortal guy, after all. Mortal as in being able to be killed. Gods don't have such failings, but fellow mortals - whether they can die of old age or not - do.
Think Rajaat vs Elminster; Rajaat vs etc etc. AFAIK there are no such comparaisons that do not result in victory for Rajaat.
What about Rajaat vs Chuck Norris, then? :P
ChuckNorris no contest:P
Rajaat wasn't banished to the Black, he is hiding there from Chuck Norris.
The reason Rajaat was born deformed is because Chuck Norris punched his grandfather.
The Cleansing Wars are what happens when Chuck Norris washes his hands.
Chuck Norris doesn't need to learn defiling, he just looks at plants and they willingly give up their life energy.
Luckily, Chuck Norris is a preserver and doesn't need wizardry because roundhouse kick.
now thats some funny ish' right there.
Though on Athas their power is absolute and you could see the SKs as Intermediate-Greater Powers and Rajaat as the Overgod of the Athasian sphere.
The SK are the equals of Lesser Gods and Demigods. Rajaat is the equal of Intermediate Gods.
Though on Athas their power is absolute and you could see the SKs as Intermediate-Greater Powers and Rajaat as the Overgod of the Athasian sphere.
Incidentally, my stance on the matter is quite similar to Masato's.
Whether or not the rules support this, or if TSR`s game designers think the same, I tend to view Rajaat and the SKs as beings on par with the Deities of other worlds.
I base my stance almost entirely in the aesthetics of it. Also, Rajaat`s power and menace is exceedingly impressive, even when compared to a God`s.
But if Rajaat went to another world he would be subject to that worlds rules of magic. On Krynn he wouldn't be able to cast spells until he could attune himself to the moons and on Faerun his magic wouldn't work either until he figured out how to access the weave. Only on Athas can spell energy be drawn form plants and even if he could defile on another world the nature gods portfolio sense would likely trigger whenever he did so
Dunno. I don't have the book in front of me. But I recall that the players guide on Planescape's boxed set states that Athasian spellcasting works just the same if the caster's in the planes.
Lurking
Incidentally, my stance on the matter is quite similar to Masato's.
Whether or not the rules support this, or if TSR`s game designers think the same, I tend to view Rajaat and the SKs as beings on par with the Deities of other worlds.
I base my stance almost entirely in the aesthetics of it. Also, Rajaat`s power and menace is exceedingly impressive, even when compared to a God`s.
Dunno. I don't have the book in front of me. But I recall that the players guide on Planescape's boxed set states that Athasian spellcasting works just the same if the caster's in the planes.
Lurking
Magic on the planes works fine but some worlds have specific rules on magic- Krynn and Faerun come to find. As written Rajaat couldn't cast spells until he tunes himslef to those worlds rules governing magic and his defiling magic probably won't work or could have drastic consequences even if it did- like ticking off several nature or magic deities.
Deities and Demigods is a 3rd ed product and Rajaat is toast if he blinks at some of those gods funny. Death gods can kill you with a look on another plane of existence, gods know the future in advance and magic gods can stop a mortal spellcaster casting spells at a whim no ifs no buts.
At best Rajaat could take out a demigod maybe a lesser god baring some sort of DM storyline involving a gods death.
IIRC the first Dieties & Demigods was a 1st edition book. It had to be rewritten due to copywrite infringements.
IIRC the first Dieties & Demigods was a 1st edition book. It had to be rewritten due to copywrite infringements.
Thats because it had the Cthulu or Melinbonean pantheon in it without permission. The 3rd ed book is one of the most useless books I bought. OK guys you have and encounter with Pelor:P
Thats because it had the Cthulu or Melinbonean pantheon in it without permission. The 3rd ed book is one of the most useless books I bought. OK guys you have and encounter with Pelor:P
Yeah, even though the 2e book had cthulhu on the cover O.o
so whats the dealio yo?
Fat, difficulty walking, eyes of fire, power gauge insanely through the roof, mutliclassing arcane power source and psionic power source, perhaps a dash of martial power source (Warlord class).
No level limits other than staying credible.
What would it look like?
4E monsters all have unique powers unduplicated by any spell, ritual, or power. A Champion - through the mighty spell that creates him - gains powers unique to all Champions, and a few unique to himself. Eyes of fire, for example.
The old salient abilities from 3E's Deities & Demigods might help there.
why is 3.5 Deities and Demi-gods considered crap? i have it, i like what i have read, but i dont get why no one likes it? i havnt used it yet cause i run dragonlance and darksun so it has no place in my games yet.
so whats the dealio yo?
Its 3.0 and its not overly useful in most situations. Do you really need to know how Vecna can kick the crap outta you? It has nice art, a good PrC, but not overly useful in most games. Its not exactly awful as such.
ah, i don't have the 3.0 version. i like it for the most part.
They never made a 3.5 version. So yes you do have the 3.0 one, lol :P
The closest thing Athas seems to have to a deity is vague references to a "Guardian of Athas" mentioned by Pavek. What it guards Athas against isn't made clear. Clearly not the ecological destruction of the world, but if someone perhaps were to cast a spell that would blow the planet to bits, maybe.
A Guardian, in Lynn Abbey's novels, is an animistic entity that represents the personality and intelligence of a tract of land. I guess its just another word for a SotL (Spirit of the Land).
In Cinnabar Shadows, Pavek claims that each Guardian is composed of several different aspects, often manifestations of druids that once guarded the related land and eventually died in it. From what I recall, Pavek also theorizes that some of these aspects reflect smaller portions of a particular land, such as a waterfall, or a tree, or a rock. And that each particular Guardian may actually be an aspect of another larger Guardian, and so on. The sum of all the local Guardians would be the Guardian of Athas. This concept is very close to Pterrans religion.
Lurking
Magic on the planes works fine but some worlds have specific rules on magic- Krynn and Faerun come to find. As written Rajaat couldn't cast spells until he tunes himslef to those worlds rules governing magic and his defiling magic probably won't work or could have drastic consequences even if it did- like ticking off several nature or magic deities.
I'm not familiar with Krynn. But I checked Magic of Faerun, and found out that there are several variants beyond mainstream magic, such as High Elven magic, or Rune magic. And there's at least one magic source alternative to the Weave: the Shadow Weave. Though Mystra can bar even a deity from accessing the Weave, she has no control over spellcasters that draw on the Shadow Weave. (Page 11.)
In light of the above, I believe that Terminus Vortexa's assertion is correct:
I always thought that since Athasian magic doesn't tap into any sort of Weave or divinely-granted power like the moons of Krynn in dragonlance, a deity couldn't use the usual methods to prevent them from spellcasting. I always figured they did that by cutting off the caster from the local source of raw magical energy, and Athasian spellcasting doesn't draw on such forces, it is fueled by the fire of life itself.
Furthermore, it seems to me that preserving/defiling has more in common with the pseudo-scientific Psionics and Life-Shaping than it does with the mainstream arcane magic that is practiced on other worlds. Preserving/defiling is more a technique than it is an Art. As long as life energy works the same as it does on Athas, or at least close enough, Athasian magic should work on another world.
On a side note, I've found a reverse example. In City by the Silt Sea, there's a giant shaman that was brought to Athas by Dregoth. Even though CbtSS states that the giant has lost contact with his god, he can still work divine magic, albeit only to a lesser extent. He can only cast spells up to the 2nd level, instead of his usual 4th level limit.
This is an example of a divine spellcaster that's still able to cast spells, even though divine magic works very differently on Athas than it does on the spellcasters home world.
Lurking
A Guardian, in Lynn Abbey's novels, is an animistic entity that represents the personality and intelligence of a tract of land. I guess its just another word for a SotL (Spirit of the Land).
In Cinnabar Shadows, Pavek claims that each Guardian is composed of several different aspects, often manifestations of druids that once guarded the related land and eventually died in it. From what I recall, Pavek also theorizes that some of these aspects reflect smaller portions of a particular land, such as a waterfall, or a tree, or a rock. And that each particular Guardian may actually be an aspect of another larger Guardian, and so on. The sum of all the local Guardians would be the Guardian of Athas. This concept is very close to Pterrans religion.
About right. Guardian is another word for SotL. The creature is composed of the spirit of all the small features of the land, and itself composes vaster guardians, until you get to the top, the guardian of Athas.
They never made a 3.5 version. So yes you do have the 3.0 one, lol :P
really?! huh, shows how much i use it doesnt it!:P
I'm not familiar with Krynn. But I checked Magic of Faerun, and found out that there are several variants beyond mainstream magic, such as High Elven magic, or Rune magic. And there's at least one magic source alternative to the Weave: the Shadow Weave. Though Mystra can bar even a deity from accessing the Weave, she has no control over spellcasters that draw on the Shadow Weave. (Page 11.)
In light of the above, I believe that Terminus Vortexa's assertion is correct:
Furthermore, it seems to me that preserving/defiling has more in common with the pseudo-scientific Psionics and Life-Shaping than it does with the mainstream arcane magic that is practiced on other worlds. Preserving/defiling is more a technique than it is an Art. As long as life energy works the same as it does on Athas, or at least close enough, Athasian magic should work on another world.
On a side note, I've found a reverse example. In City by the Silt Sea, there's a giant shaman that was brought to Athas by Dregoth. Even though CbtSS states that the giant has lost contact with his god, he can still work divine magic, albeit only to a lesser extent. He can only cast spells up to the 2nd level, instead of his usual 4th level limit.
This is an example of a divine spellcaster that's still able to cast spells, even though divine magic works very differently on Athas than it does on the spellcasters home world.
Lurking
In 2nd ed a Clerics spells of 1st and 2nd level came from faith alone so a cleric on another world cut off from his god could still cast low level spells. This was covered in spelljammer and planescape IIRC.
Its more or less a concrete rule that magic onb Faerun for example has to be powered by the weave or shadow weave ergo defiling wouldn't work or if it did Rajaat would still be accessing the weave somehow.
Going with the assumption it does work it would likely trigger some nature deities portfolio sense and an avatar could be dispatched to deal with Rajaat. Deities can cast in antimagic shells, Rajaat can't and that doesn't include salient divine powers which more than a few can be used to kill mortals with no saves and no ifs or buts.
About right. Guardian is another word for SotL. The creature is composed of the spirit of all the small features of the land, and itself composes vaster guardians, until you get to the top, the guardian of Athas.
Yeah. I did some extensive reasearch on the matter when I was writing my take on the Small Water halflings. Not a lot of material out there. Neither on the halfling tribe, nor on the SotLs.
Canon seems to support Lynn Abbey's view on the Guardians, at least in that each SotL is really an aspect of another, larger SotL.
Besides the pterran religion thing, each pyreen's guarded territory is a *large* tract of land. Though I don't think this is ever explicitly mentioned, I suppose each pyreen deals with just one super SotL, instead of a large number of local spirits.
Lurking
Uhhh... Zardnaar said this already... anyway...
Erm um look out German Panzer.
While Rajaat is powerful he is still mortal for purposes of game rules although he is immortal as far as not dying of old age goes. IN 2nd ed rules he would probably have been a level 40 wizard or so.
In 3.5 if someone was keen I would use the Pyreen from legends of ASthas and replace hisPyreen druidic power with wizard powers. In class levels I would make him something like.
Rajaat: Pyreen/Cerebremancer 10/Wiz9/Archmage5 with an additional 1-5 wizard levels or another arcane PrC to get his arcane caster level around 40-45.
Some people may think that is to low but theres not alot a level 40 wizard can't do given enough time. I'm basing the level 40-45 caster on how the SK's were statted out in 2nd ed and on comparing his power level to other epic wizards mostly from Faerun as Ioulaum and Karsus cast spells of similar power to Rajaat on their respective worlds. Karsus and Ioulaum are Netherise and Karsus killed the god of magic via and epic spell and someone even stated it out on the epic boards once and done a good job and showed how Karsus could actually castit as the spelcraft DC was around 270 IIRC.
Dragons of Faerun, Lost Empires of Faerun and Players guide to Faerun also have several examples of epic spells similar to some that have been used on Athas. Lost Empires has the Mythal seed which could duplicate the wards of Ur Draxa or Saragar.
But if Rajaat went to another world he would be subject to that worlds rules of magic. On Krynn he wouldn't be able to cast spells until he could attune himself to the moons
No, there are renegade mages on Krynn who don't serve any of the 3 moons
Holy Crap... You guys and thread jacking. Tell me, what was the topic again... Rajaat right?
But how can one discuss gods without Chuck Norris? Is he not the standard by which divine beings are measured (and found lacking)?
ARRrrrGggghh!!!!!!!!...........In 2nd ed a Clerics spells of 1st and 2nd level came from faith alone so a cleric on another world cut off from his god could still cast low level spells.
This still plays into my argument. Again: it stands as an example of a divine spellcaster that's still able to cast spells, even though divine magic works very differently on Athas than it does elsewhere.
Its more or less a concrete rule that magic onb Faerun for example has to be powered by the weave or shadow weave ergo defiling wouldn't work or if it did Rajaat would still be accessing the weave somehow.
As shrykull has pointed out, there are wizards on Krynn that do not fit into the neat mold of how magic works on that world.
I doubt that the rule of how magic works on FR is monolithic to the point that it includes Athasian spellcasters as well.
Even though the Weave is the (major) source of both divine and arcane magic on FR, it isn't the only source of supernatural powers on that world. Psionics works. Athasian arcane "magic" is so unlike the magic practiced on other worlds that it likely works too.
salient divine powers which more than a few can be used to kill mortals with no saves and no ifs or buts.
Rajaat's mortality is debatable. He was defeated by the combined might of a dozen Champions, who likely struck only when his guard was down. Still, they were unable to completely destroy him. Even millennia later, the Dragon of Tyr and the other Dragon Kings hadn't yet figured out a way to do him in permanently. They had to content themselves with keeping his remains locked up in the Dragon's care. And even that took the life forces of seven thousand people per year to sustain.
Rajaat sounds a lot more unstoppable and unkillable than any D&D god I've ever heard about.
Rajaat is toast if he blinks at some of those gods funny. Death gods can kill you with a look on another plane of existence, gods know the future in advance and magic gods can stop a mortal spellcaster casting spells at a whim no ifs no buts.
That statement is strongly contradicted by the stories of some D&D gods. Mystril's fate is of particular note.
Mystril was FR's first deity of the Weave, and she was a very impressive Greater god of Magic. Her destruction was brought about by a human mage, Karsus, who used a *spell* to usurp her portfolio. A Greater deity was brought low by a human, who used a tool that fell within the deity's own portfolio to defeat her.
All Mystril could do was using her remaining power to destroy both Karsus and herself as well.
Please, stop compairing tomatos to potatoes. Rajaat is not a god and will not run up against gods anytime soon.
Right. And the gods aren't likely to visit Athas anytime soon. I suppose that comparing Rajaat with Mystril is just as nonsensical and silly as debating which starship kicks more butt: a Super Star Destroyer from Star Wars, USS Enterprise, or Battlestar Galactica.
Nevertheless, I care about the subject because I believe that defining Rajaat's power in absolute terms is relevant.
And, while Rajaat and most Dragon Kings aren't interested in godhood or travelling to other planes, Dregoth is. I find that defining how Dregoth compares with other powerfull beings from other worlds is rather relevant too.
But how can one discuss gods without Chuck Norris? Is he not the standard by which divine beings are measured (and found lacking)?
I guess that if I was going to make a Dark Sun movie I'd cast Chuck Norris as Rajaat. :P
Lurking
In 2nd ed a Clerics spells of 1st and 2nd level came from faith alone so a cleric on another world cut off from his god could still cast low level spells. This was covered in spelljammer and planescape IIRC.
Its more or less a concrete rule that magic onb Faerun for example has to be powered by the weave or shadow weave ergo defiling wouldn't work or if it did Rajaat would still be accessing the weave somehow.
Going with the assumption it does work it would likely trigger some nature deities portfolio sense and an avatar could be dispatched to deal with Rajaat. Deities can cast in antimagic shells, Rajaat can't and that doesn't include salient divine powers which more than a few can be used to kill mortals with no saves and no ifs or buts.
Given the latest description of Rajaat, he is quite large, I don't think a anti-magic shell would cover him enough to stop him from casting. Besides, Rajaat was a pyreen, even if deformed, and therefore not mortal in the traditional sense if at all and with all the magic he bestowed on his champions, its more than likely he applied a similar ritual to himself making him immortal if he wasn't before. So, salient divine abilities that snuff out mortals would have no effect. A deity would have to get his hands dirty taking out Rajaat.
This still plays into my argument. Again: it stands as an example of a divine spellcaster that's still able to cast spells, even though divine magic works very differently on Athas than it does elsewhere.
As shrykull has pointed out, there are wizards on Krynn that do not fit into the neat mold of how magic works on that world.
I doubt that the rule of how magic works on FR is monolithic to the point that it includes Athasian spellcasters as well.
Even though the Weave is the (major) source of both divine and arcane magic on FR, it isn't the only source of supernatural powers on that world. Psionics works. Athasian arcane "magic" is so unlike the magic practiced on other worlds that it likely works too.
Rajaat's mortality is debatable. He was defeated by the combined might of a dozen Champions, who likely struck only when his guard was down. Still, they were unable to completely destroy him. Even millennia later, the Dragon of Tyr and the other Dragon Kings hadn't yet figured out a way to do him in permanently. They had to content themselves with keeping his remains locked up in the Dragon's care. And even that took the life forces of seven thousand people per year to sustain.
Rajaat sounds a lot more unstoppable and unkillable than any D&D god I've ever heard about.
That statement is strongly contradicted by the stories of some D&D gods. Mystril's fate is of particular note.
Mystril was FR's first deity of the Weave, and she was a very impressive Greater god of Magic. Her destruction was brought about by a human mage, Karsus, who used a *spell* to usurp her portfolio. A Greater deity was brought low by a human, who used a tool that fell within the deity's own portfolio to defeat her.
All Mystril could do was using her remaining power to destroy both Karsus and herself as well.
Right. And the gods aren't likely to visit Athas anytime soon. I suppose that comparing Rajaat with Mystril is just as nonsensical and silly as debating which starship kicks more butt: a Super Star Destroyer from Star Wars, USS Enterprise, or Battlestar Galactica.
Nevertheless, I care about the subject because I believe that defining Rajaat's power in absolute terms is relevant.
And, while Rajaat and most Dragon Kings aren't interested in godhood or travelling to other planes, Dregoth is. I find that defining how Dregoth compares with other powerfull beings from other worlds is rather relevant too.
I guess that if I was going to make a Dark Sun movie I'd cast Chuck Norris as Rajaat. :P
Lurking
Without some sort of DM storyline or TSR/WoTC plotline its almost impossable to kill a god. Karsus killed Mystryll using a level 12 spell in 2nd ed. Someone at the epic boards did stat out that spell Karsus Avatar as a 3.5 epic spell and the spel DC was in the 200+ range an was barely castable by Karsus who was a level 41-42 archmage.
Some people here like to think Rajaat is divine or could take on a god. He can't regardless if you use 2nd or 3rd ed rules. My belief is Rajaat has a caster level of around 40-45.The original champions managed to defeat him and imprison him which means he can be taken down a dozen or so epic characters which in 2nd ed terms were level 21-30.
The 2nd ed stats for Borys and the other Dragon kings I hate to break it to you are they are to weak to take on an avatar of a 2nd ed god let alone a god at full power. Mystras avatar in 2nd ed is a level 40 Mage level 40 cleric with 100% magic resistence and can cast multiple spells per round and even once her spells are exhausted she can cast 1 spell a round indefinatly along with various other powers. I like 3 TSR/WoTC gameworlds and Athas/Realms are 2 of them.
Most people here don't realise how much power a level 30 or 40 spellcaster can do and like to think of Rajaat being evel 60+ or 100+. He doesn't need to that high and his arcane powers are roughly on par with several epic Netherise wizards from Faerun. I'm not getting into a peeing contest as which world has the bggest nastiest wizards but I have seen mechanics from both worlds in 2nd and 3rd ed. I also own both Netheril Empire of Magic and Dragon Kings and the netherise spells are more powerful than the Dragon Kings psionic enhancement type spells- just an observation BTW.
The Sorcerer Kings are beatable- 2nd ed proved that and in 3rd ed terms to me they should be on par with the archfiends from the core D&D rules. Powerful, deafeatable but not gods. Theres nothing Rajaat has done that couldn't be achieved by a level 40 odd wizard and if they champions managed to defeat him he can't really be much higher than that. I've played up to level 30 in 3rd ed and the rules really start to break down around level 11 let alone epic levels.
If I had to stat Rajaat out I would use Athas.orgs Pyreen and replace his innate Druidic levels with wizard levels.
Rajaat. Pyreen/Cerebremancer 10,Archmage 5,Wizard 10.
That would make him a level 43 spellcaster, 28 manifester and augmented by the Pristine Tower theres not alot he couldn't do. I wrote my own Dragon rules as Athas.org ones had to use to much multiclassing and ended up with level 60odd characters which is more thasn double the SK's stats in the original material. My Dragons start at around CR22 and go up to CR36 so you can add a template or 2 if you want or additional levels if one was really keen on stating out all the Sorcerer Kings. Its also faster to generate a NPC Dragon than having to make up class combinations etc.
Essentially never underestimate a level 40 odd wizard. Built right they're almost unbeatable.
Without some sort of DM storyline or TSR/WoTC plotline its almost impossable to kill a god. Karsus killed Mystryll using a level 12 spell in 2nd ed. Someone at the epic boards did stat out that spell Karsus Avatar as a 3.5 epic spell and the spel DC was in the 200+ range an was barely castable by Karsus who was a level 41-42 archmage.
Ah. So, basically you are saying that a mortal can`t really take on a god, no ifs and no buts. But, Karsus could because of whatever.
Without some sort of DM storyline or TSR/WoTC plotline its almost impossable to kill a god.
Gaming rules are important. But one of the fundamental principles of RPG is that the rules are supposed to reflect the stories, not the other way around.
Ack! This is leading nowhere. I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree.
Lurking
Ah. So, basically you are saying that a mortal can`t really take on a god, no ifs and no buts. But, Karsus could because of whatever.
Gaming rules are important. But one of the fundamental principles of RPG is that the rules are supposed to reflect the stories, not the other way around.
Ack! This is leading nowhere. I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree.
Lurking
Karsus killed a god because the of the storyline. Mechanically a mortal might be able to kill a demipower, aspect or avatar but its highly unlikely one could kill a lesser power or above.
The DM could rule a good dies for some reason but mechanically gods are to strong as they have powers that kill you no save, always roll 20's etc. If you manage to kill one it woud be because.
1. Its a weak god (Demipower or lesser power maybe)
2. Storyline line/DM plot device (artifact)
3. Cheese (hulking hurler with 20+ initiative or something like that).
Go have a look at Deities and Demigods if you don't believe me. On the min max boards they worked out it takes around 13 great wurm prismatic Dragons to kill Bahumat who is a lesser power. If you had a DM who lets you research epic spells to kill one or makes you immune to salient divine abilities maybe but that is really reason 2 on the above list. I've got most of the 3rd ed and even 2nd ed god type books. Mechanically thy're to tough.
Ah. So, basically you are saying that a mortal can`t really take on a god, no ifs and no buts. But, Karsus could because of whatever.
Gaming rules are important. But one of the fundamental principles of RPG is that the rules are supposed to reflect the stories, not the other way around.
Ack! This is leading nowhere. I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree.
Lurking
Karsus killed a god because the of the storyline. Mechanically a mortal might be able to kill a demipower, aspect or avatar but its highly unlikely one could kill a lesser power or above.
The DM could rule a good dies for some reason but mechanically gods are to strong as they have powers that kill you no save, always roll 20's etc. If you manage to kill one it woud be because.
1. Its a weak god (Demipower or lesser power maybe)
2. Storyline line/DM plot device (artifact)
3. Cheese (hulking hurler with 20+ initiative or something like that).
Go have a look at Deities and Demigods if you don't believe me. On the min max boards they worked out it takes around 13 great wurm prismatic Dragons to kill Bahumat who is a lesser power. If you had a DM who lets you research epic spells to kill one or makes you immune to salient divine abilities maybe but that is really reason 2 on the above list. I've got most of the 3rd ed and even 2nd ed god type books. Mechanically thy're to tough.
Is Rajaat "divine?"
Nope. He is more commonly known as the "First Sorcerer" but besides inventing Defiling and Preserving magic which converts life to magic, he also invented the mixing of Psionics and Magic to alter reality on the grander scale.....but what his research was based on just skimmed the Surface of the Knowledge of what the "Life Masters" knew.
It was the "Life Masters" that turned the Sun from Blue to Yellow to stop a "boo-boo" they made that caused a brown tide in their oceans while experimenting with ways to double their crops (what a reason to destroy your civilization)
It was also the "Life Masters", Halflings, that altered themselves into Humans, Dwarfs,Elves and such to populate their new world in the Green Age with some spontaneos Spawning of other creatures of which one type was the PYreen a very long lived race that and "the best features of all races"
As a Pyreen, Rajaat was basically immortal and while he didn't quite get a full grasp of tapping the Sun's power to Empower his Champions, turning the Yellow Sun Red in the process until he raided the Pristine Tower, He did figure out how to suck the life out of Athas itself though the power was found to be to much for him
Another thing is, would you apply different rules to different types of magic. Would you give a character ,for example, from Krynn his spell resistance against a magic missle cast by a wizard from Dark Sun, who is using an alien form of magic not native to that world?
How you asorb Spell Energy and memorize a Spell differs by what you are thought.
A lot of Plane Hopping Wizards like Eliminster, Halaster, and Even the Dragons, and Avangions as they adventure to advance will tell you casting Memorized spells on a different Plane or on a Different wolrd is easy. re-memorizing the spell using the local Rules is hard if you don't have a means to use the local rules, bend them or break them.
There is no "Weave" or "Ether" in Dark Sun, So Eliminster would be up the Creek without a Paddle unless he n\knew how to rememorize spells via Preserving or Defiling
On the Other Hand Rajatt can suck the life out of plants, living things, and even the planet and covert that energy into magic, so the Weave or Ether or lack thereof would not apply if their are living victims in front of him and a planet beneath him
And remember, he prefers defiling magic so people spontaniously turning to ash as he asorbs power wouldn't be unusual
Real Question is, because even gods are living things, could Rajjat leech the life out of them? Would it make him aquire the god's portfolio if he was to Suck the life out of Cryic or any other god in the Forgotten Realms?
One thing I thought about is what kind of limits would be put on a dark sun character within Athas's Crystal Sphere? There are no deities to stop something major happening, something that a god/gods/overgod would prevent from happening in sphere's that had them. Someone could destroy the entire solar system if they had enough power, or whatever else they want. Probably not crack/break the sphere though.
Hmmm. No connections to "The Flow" in Spelljammer term, no connection to the Outer planes, and surrounded by "The Grey" which even "gods" can get lost in and will have the life sucked out of them and even gods can die in there if they stay in there long enough, and "the Black" which can also suck the life out of "gods", and even the Dead aren't allowed out of here with them eventually melding into nothingness in the Grey.
I don't know, sounds like Someone or Something doesn't want the "Life Master's Folly or Rajaat's knowlege to freely escape this Crystal Sphere
There are Refernces to the Lifemasters having Spelljaming technology prior to the Green Age too, but the Grey and Black came about after they turned the Blue Sun Yellow and were basically trapped after that (It's scribbled in the Used books I have on Dark Sun so it's probally not "Kosher")
Do you think Rajaat knows about the SK's living vortices? Regardless of which version you use (or even a combination of the two) that they got them from becoming dragons according to dragon kings, or according to the Athas timeline from Borys using the lens to augment them. Rajaat wouldn't know of them. It somewhat implies Dregoth knows of his saying he wants "Not just the simulated godhood granted by Rajaat's living vortices" this doesn't necessarily mean he knows what's giving him the ability to give his followers spells, just that knows he can.
Again, Scribbled
They are 5th dimensional Nighmare creatures known as Polynynomorphs that were attracted by the Dark Lens and the magic being used to create Rajatt's Champions at the Pristine Tower (turning the Yellow Sun Red)
As a "observer", the polynunomorph thought the Magic at hand and the power of the lens interesting and when it saw what it was doing to the people involved it stuck it's "fingers" into the 15 Champions to "See what they See" and "Feel what they Feel" and "Hear their thought"
The Metamorphosis spell not only fused the Polynynomorphs "fingers" much to
it's dipleasure, but because it simutaniously holds a foot in each of the elemental planes (as a 5th dimensional omnielemental) it became a soucre of Elemental Power that was grantable to the Dragon's Worshipers
As the Champions die off "fingers" of the Polynynomorph is freed and albe to wonder around elsewhere on Athas but it is Trapped by "the Grey" and "the Black" like pretty much everything Else in this Crystal Sphere without magical assistance. The 15 "fingers" could form into 1 being, or likewise it can explore independently of each of it's other fingers or it's host on the other side of the Crystal Shpere which it has lost contact with.
One Dragon King, of Ramm, suspected something was behind her "powers" and devloped a Spell to divine what it was
Summon Badna
Level: 7th
Duration: Instantaneous
Target:Self
Range:0
Save: v.s. Fear when Badna forms,on fail save v.s fear for Insanity
M= Obsidian Orb for Dragon, Relic or Artifact of interest for anyone else that is surrendered to Badna as payment for showing up
This Spell Attracts the Polynynomorph known as Badna to appear. droplets of inky black nothingnes will seem to come from everywhere and a pool of "nothingness" forms in front of caster and begins to stand up like a "black puddig" about to attack. This is the moment that a cold and shivering feeling goes up and down the caster's spine as the Caster is confronting a 5th Dimensional Nightmare Creature (caster must save v.s. fear)
As the form takes shape, Badna assumes his Prime Material form of a Human wearing a loin cloth, but with 4 arms instead of 2.
Originally, the "Grand Vizer" used this spell to find out what was going on.
Let's just say her mind was not put to ease in seeing a nightmare creature, then a mostly naked man with 4 arms?
This Spell, if used to summon Badna who has come to check out your interesting Artifact/Relic, will offer the Caster a chance to convince the "finger" that was summoned to Observe the caster
It should be noted that if the caster is planning to cast a Metamorphosis spell or is a Advanced being Badna, having been stuck in the Champions, won't join with Caster, or may even vacate if it originally agreed to join with the Caster. Likewise if the Caster is boring Badna may just leave (because it can)
Badna, might be convinced to fight for the caster, or if caster has gone insane, might neee to defend self from Caster.
Badna fights as 5th Level Fighter and has 120Hp in any of its 15 given "Finger" and it's host has 50,000HP...which doesn't matter as the "fingers" are currently cut off, There is a sub-host hiding in the Elemental planes that has 2000HP. Badna rarely unites it's free "fingers" to regenerate hit points, nor does it has the convience to pull in hit points from it's Main host body so Badna may just flee a insane Caster, though may stay to help the Caster Fight...in return for the interesting relic/artifact (Badna aslo claims the relic or artifact if joining with caster or even if refuse..the relic/artifact is "payment"). Badna is aware that Nightmare creatures are poisonus to Prime Material Creatures and thus strikes with claws on his hands for 1d6 per hand, 4 attacks per round, and on hit on flesh taret must save v.s. Deadly poison. Badna prefers not to fight Prime material animals if possible as he must save v.s. Deadly poison if clawed or bitten (even if by unarmed Human). In either case, if the save is failed the Prime creature is Dead. If Badna fails v.s Poison, this "finger" of Badna is irreversiblly dead and collapses into a inky pool of nothingness that shrinks and disapears. When injured Badna tries to pull from it's 2000HP in the Elemental Planes but if it realizes it's about to be hit with a Prime Creatures unarmed atack it may disconect from the "finger"lest the Sub-host in the Elemental Palnes be poisoned as a whole as well. (on survivng the batlle Badna "updates it's experiences")
As long as Badna resides in the Primordial Lobe to observe, anyone with faith in the Caster that Badna is riding in gets acess to Clerical Spells of Elemental Nature. Downside is Badna knows what is going on and as a part of the "weird Side effect" Badna knows what is going in the Worshipper's mind too which it may choose to share or withold from it's host/caster (the link between the Templar Feeling the Presence of it's Dragon and the Dragon's Mind hearing the Templar pray is a "side effect" of Badna being in there (Badna doesn't "Make it happen")
Would you put any limits of a SK's vortex? What's to stop an SK from giving a templar earthquake after earthquake after earthquake, to level a city then taking over his mind and using them "himself?"
The Templar is a Cleric of the Dragon. Rules for Praying resting and level/spell limits apply
The Vortex doesn't actually grant the power. Its a weird side efect of riding in the primodial lobe of a creature on Athas.
In other Realms and Planes of existence the Polynynomorphs riding in,say, Eliminster's Primordial lobe doesn't make Eliminster able to grant Spells to his Scribe....lol (The Forgotten Realms Polynynomorph's name is Kepp and looks like a non descript brown skinned Human "Road gaurd" wearing chain mail, leather Breeches and a purple Cape, armed with a "long sword' and a "sling" in "Prime form" )
The closest thing Athas seems to have to a deity is vague references to a "Guardian of Athas" mentioned by Pavek. What it guards Athas against isn't made clear. Clearly not the ecological destruction of the world, but if someone perhaps were to cast a spell that would blow the planet to bits, maybe.
Again, "the Grey" and "the Black" stops even Dieties in their tracks and can even kill them in time, plus it has kept the Dragons and Rajjat and the technology and knowlege of the "Life Masters" out of the rest of existence fairly well.
"Somebody" surely got the place under lock and key. Maybe a Ao type being.
The 2nd ed stats for Borys and the other Dragon kings I hate to break it to you are they are to weak to take on an avatar of a 2nd ed god let alone a god at full power.
No, if you read Monster Mythology, 2nd edition. You'll see not all the gods are very godlike. Take the Kobold god's avatar, a petty wimp, Greater Gods like him can have 10 avatars at the same time, but all 10 of his couldn't take down Rajaat. Grummush's son has a 4 or a 5 intelligence! Rajaat can outsmart him, no questions asked.
In 2E demi-gods have stats, and Iuz is a 150 hitpoint weakling, that'd be no problem for him, one Rajaat enhanced fireball with the dark lens would take him out. The only problem is his soul gem, which Rajaat could tear his mind apart to find out where it is. And take ove several people's minds to go the Abyss and destroy it.
Mystras avatar in 2nd ed is a level 40 Mage level 40 cleric with 100% magic resistance and can cast multiple spells per round and even once her spells are exhausted she can cast 1 spell a round indefinatly along with various other powers.
Again, there's the question of whether magic from another world would be alien to someone's magic resistance. In the Menzoberranzan book there is this whip which drow magic resistance doesn't apply to when you get hit with it. So, clearly a different type of magic may cut right through it.
Even if Rajaat can't effect her directly with spells, there's no such thing as "Psionics resistance" in 2E (only defenses against mind-effecting psionic powers) and Rajaat is quite a psionicist, and there's the lower resistance spell. If Rajaat cast that on her, augmented by the dark lens, it is magnified by a factor of 10, and magic resistance applies at half it's normal value against the spell itself. If it works, her magic resistance is reduced by 40 (the level you think Rajaat is) times 30% +40, her new magic resistance is 100% -1280% giving her a negative 1180% magic resistance!
How would negative magic resistance work, I'm guessing it would be like diablo 2 where you take extra damage from the elements you have negative resistances to. So, even magic missle cast by a first level mage against Mystra's avatar would do 1d4+1= let's assume he rolls a 1, 1+1= 2 x 1180%= 23.6 hit points! Just imagine what a meteor swarm cast by Rajaat aided by the dark lens would do! Thousands of hit points of damage. Bye-bye Mystra baby.
Most people here don't realise how much power a level 30 or 40 spellcaster can do and like to think of Rajaat being evel 60+ or 100+. He doesn't need to that high and his arcane powers are roughly on par with several epic Netherise wizards from Faerun. I'm not getting into a peeing contest as which world has the bggest nastiest wizards but I have seen mechanics from both worlds in 2nd and 3rd ed. I also own both Netheril Empire of Magic and Dragon Kings and the netherise spells are more powerful than the Dragon Kings psionic enhancement type spells- just an observation BTW.
Is this 3rd edition? In 2E the player's handbook, mages could go up to 20th level, in the Complete Wizards Handbook 2E, it has the experience levels from 20 to 30 and said (Though it may have been exagerrating) "Power that rivals that of the gods"
The Sorcerer Kings are beatable- 2nd ed proved that and in 3rd ed terms to me they should be on par with the archfiends from the core D&D rules. Powerful, deafeatable but not gods. Theres nothing Rajaat has done that couldn't be achieved by a level 40 odd wizard and if they champions managed to defeat him he can't really be much higher than that. I've played up to level 30 in 3rd ed and the rules really start to break down around level 11 let alone epic levels.
Can a 40th level mage cast a spell and make a 0th level farmboy character a 20th level mage? (as Rajaat did to Hamanu in Rise and Fall, but they may not be canon) as he did with the dark lens? He could create armies of 20th level mages to serve him.
Each world has a near legendary figure. Rajaat didn't do anything that a non Athasian wizard of level 35-45 couldn't do. If Rajaat was so powerful he wouldn't have been entrapped by his champions who are weaker than gods avatars (well alot of them).
13 champions betrayed him, Mystra can have 19 avatars each on par with Borys (30/30 Psion/Wizard vs 19 40/40 Wizard/Clerics). Most of the champions were alot weaker than Borys. Each avatar is stronger than all the Champions with maybe the exception of Borys himself. Mystra could have 1 avatar engage 1 champion each and Borys can have 7 of them.
In 2nd ed terms Rajaat is probably on par with Karsus or Ioulaum Netherese archmages from Forgotten Realms who are in the level 41-45 level IIRC. Thats still around 11-15 levels higher than Borys and would allow the champion combined to defeat him.
The Sorcerer Kings are about on par with archfiends on a normal world and Borys is roughly equal to Grazzt, Demogorgon,Dispater or the like.
Its more or less a concrete rule that magic onb Faerun for example has to be powered by the weave or shadow weave ergo defiling wouldn't work or if it did Rajaat would still be accessing the weave somehow.
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Not so. In Planescape setting, they reference the fact that Athasian defilers are feared among the planes, and even Baatorians admire the way they fuel their destruction with destruction. There are references, IIRC, specifically addressing the fact that preservers and defilers are not bound by the restrictions of dependency on a Weave,like in Faerun, or the Moons, like on Krynn. The whole reason defiling was developed in the first place was to bypass the need for a dedicated source of extradimensional energy to power their spells. Dregoth's magic worked perfectly fine for him on his travels. And, as 4e has pointed out, the Weave was never as vital as it was played out to be, and in fact was more of a choke or limiter on the amount of Arcane power a wizard could draw upon. There is no more Weave, but magic works just fine on Faerun, albeit with some changes. A Defiler on Faerun would be damn near unstoppable, especially if you use the Paizo rules.
Gods of other settings generally start out as ideals or concepts that people begin to believe in. 1st Edition allowed its 'end game' to extend to usurping gods as the logical conclusion of a huge power trip - by necessity gods were quantified, given stats and abilities.
The general concept of the people who wrote the Monster Manuals, Manual of the Planes, Dieties & Demi-gods etc was to simply assign numbers and abilities to as many creatures as possible - by extension even mythical aurthurian figures were given god-like features and abilities - completely unnecessarily, but done because these famous figures had to be made robust enough to survive numerous campaigns.
The 'super' sorcerers of Forgotten Realms (Krasus, Elminster etc) are mythical figures given extreme stats so that even the most dedicated power gamers don't wander about giving other prominent characters nipple-cripples.
My friends and I experimented with those books quite a bit.. I've always been a huge fan of MoP (the various Manuals of the Planes) and a number of the gods presented really are pretty cool. I love the idea of different Planes with a variety of magical & physical laws with larger than life landscapes.
But they're not Athas.
However, if Athas were written to fit into a normal campaign setting, Rajaat would be just another god and would inherit all the features of a Greater or Intermediate god (being the most prominent god of the DarkSun setting).
By similar extension advanced beings would almost certainly be demi-gods who are occasionally usurped and replaced with another power hungry egomaniac who can do pretty much whatever they want without fear of consequences.
ho hum.
One of the core concepts of DarkSun is that it has its feet on the ground.
Rajaat, advanced beings, (arguably) spirits of the land and even undead all began as people.
People struggle, fight, work and generally live 'real' lives with serious risks along the way.
Another core concept is that nobody escapes consequences.
No amount of sticking a sword in somebody is going to take their features or powers - sticking swords in people injures them & tends to get blood on you; wandering about in the desert doesn't make you enlightened - it gets you dehydrated, exhausted, probably lost and quite possibly deadified.
Ultimately asking if Rajaat is divine, a god or Power is moot - unless you're involving different campaign worlds with each other - something the creators of DarkSun went to some lengths to prohibit precisely because DarkSun doesn't operate by the same standards.
Not so. In Planescape setting, they reference the fact that Athasian defilers are feared among the planes, and even Baatorians admire the way they fuel their destruction with destruction. There are references, IIRC, specifically addressing the fact that preservers and defilers are not bound by the restrictions of dependency on a Weave,like in Faerun, or the Moons, like on Krynn. The whole reason defiling was developed in the first place was to bypass the need for a dedicated source of extradimensional energy to power their spells. Dregoth's magic worked perfectly fine for him on his travels. And, as 4e has pointed out, the Weave was never as vital as it was played out to be, and in fact was more of a choke or limiter on the amount of Arcane power a wizard could draw upon. There is no more Weave, but magic works just fine on Faerun, albeit with some changes. A Defiler on Faerun would be damn near unstoppable, especially if you use the Paizo rules.
They changed the rules for 4th ed regarding the weave.. Previous editions the rules for FR would over ride other rules from a non FR setting. A Faerunian spellcaster on Athas would be screwed until he figured out how to draw from plants. That was also mentioned in 2nd ed in either PLanescape or Spelljammer with world walking wizards. A cleric or wizard on another world is subject to that worlds laws of magic as Krynn had specific rules as well. Its probably a safe assumption defiling only works on worlds that don't have any specific rules stopping it. FR and Krynn have specific rules regarding magic. There was also he 3 wizards articles in Dragon magazine detailing conversations between Elminster, Dalamar and the one from Oerth.
In any event even if defiling did work on Faerun it would immediatly alert several nature deities and if its Rajaat it wouldn't be to unreasonable for said deity to despatch a avatar or the like to deal with him. Rajaat isn't divine he doesn't even have divine like powers. He is a powerful wizard augmented byt the dark lens and pristine tower.
He is a powerful wizard/psion, on another world an Archwizard. In power levels he would be similar to Orcus or Vecna pre ascension. If he was as powerful as a god he wouldn't have needed his chamions and he wouldn't have been weak enough to get imprisoned by them.
Its probably a safe assumption defiling only works on worlds that don't have any specific rules stopping it.
I'd hardly call any assumption safe, except assuming something real is real. For example, we assumed that the enemies attacking our keep in a Forgotten Realms game were real and not illusions until we found out otherwise, but when it's something you have no evidence for, it's a wild guess.
In any event even if defiling did work on Faerun it would immediatly alert several nature deities
Dregoth must have used his defiling on world's that had nature deities, but apparently either he was able to defeat their avatars, or somehow conceal his defiling from them. An Avatar, depending on how powerful it was would be an even match for Dregoth. He could beat at least of one Chauntea's avatar, Mielikki's avatar, or silvanus's avatar. They'd have to send more than one at least to deal with him.
and if its Rajaat it wouldn't be to unreasonable for said deity to despatch a avatar or the like to deal with him. Rajaat isn't divine he doesn't even have divine like powers. He is a powerful wizard augmented byt the dark lens and pristine tower.
He does have the ability to grant spells, like god's do, via a living vortex.
If he was as powerful as a god he wouldn't have needed his chamions and he wouldn't have been weak enough to get imprisoned by them.
Hamanu questioned why Rajaat needed his champions in Rise and Fall, that Rajaat could have exterminated them all in a day if we wanted to, his theory was that he didn't want the blood personally on his hands. Hamanu had no training in magic before Rajaat used the lens on him and made him something like a 20th level mage by infusing the knowledge into his mind. Where have we seen an archwizard do that?
Karsus killed a god because the of the storyline.
So, what exactly are you saying? That a power can only be a killed by a mortal if it's an NPC and part of a story, rather than in a campaign? And part of a story that was written not involving the PCs? So any other mortal can't do it in a D&D game? I just don't see how it's relevant. All that matters is that Karsus killed a god, Karsus was mortal, so mortals can kill gods under some circumstances. So does this mean Mystril wasn't a goddess because she was killed by a mortal, like how Rajaat was reimprisoned by mortals. He's not a god either, but we see someone mortals defeat gods.
The main thing is gods beyond demi-god status don't have stats, they are assumed to be divine and beyond them. So we can't compare stats. Above demi-god status we're totally in the dark. On Hallowed Ground for Planescape says that gods can kill mortals by presence alone, and lesser gods are the weakest gods, except that Rajaat isn't "mortal" in the sense that (I hate that there are so many definitions of mortal!) he is ageless and disease-immune and no one on Athas knows a way to kill him.
Not so. In Planescape setting, they reference the fact that Athasian defilers are feared among the planes, and even Baatorians admire the way they fuel their destruction with destruction.
What's the source for this? I'm just curious what product you mean. Someone also told me that there are references in Planescape to the Harmonium or some other faction being admirers of the champions of Rajaat for exterminating the chaotic races from Athas.
There are references, IIRC, specifically addressing the fact that preservers and defilers are not bound by the restrictions of dependency on a Weave,like in Faerun, or the Moons, like on Krynn.
Again, do you know the source book? The spells and powers 2E Players option book lists preservers and defilers as an optional character class on other worlds.
The whole reason defiling was developed in the first place was to bypass the need for a dedicated source of extradimensional energy to power their spells.
Rajaat has more than just plants and animal life energy type magic, he knows how to tap into other sources like storms and such, like he did in the Cerulean storm. Possibly the black, like shadow wizards do too. It seemed that that was the first source of magic he came across. I think since he was a powerful psion and could use his internal energy nexus for spells, he asked the question whether he could take the life from other creatures to power things.
A Defiler on Faerun would be damn near unstoppable, especially if you use the Paizo rules.
I had a preserver on Krynn and our DM ruled he could have an extra spell because of all the life there. Also, Krynn has no psionics, a powerful 30th level psion could wreck lots of havoc there, as no one would be prepared for it and have no defense.
Using their 2nd ed stats Dregoth is toast on Faerun if he went there. Chanteas and Silvanus avatar would eat him alive (undead?). Druid 40/Cleric 20+ avatar abilities or Druid 40, Fighter 25, Wizard 20 vs Dregoths stats in city by the Sea of Silt.
Both Rajaat and Dregoth are mortal at least in terms of Deity vs mortal conflict. They go die/destroy and they are both gone. I have the 2nd ed Darksun books+Netheril Empire of Magic boxed set and and Faiths and Avatars book as well. As written all the SK's with the exception of Borys are outmatched by most deities avatars and the Netherise Archmages. Borys is a match for some of the demipowers maybe lesser deities avatars and out matches most Netherise as well except for the big ones like Karsus, Ioulaum, Telamont.
In 3.5 terms Rajaat is still a mortal as he would have no divine ranks which means a death god can go die and Rajaat will die. He is the most powerful mortal on Athas (mortal as in not a deity). He doesn't grant spells but steals the power from the planes. They never statted Rajaat out but most people underestimate how much damage a level 40-45 wizard can do (or even 35) due to the open ended nature of the 3.0 travesty known as the Epic Level Handbook which rules/mechanics wise was a mess if not outright disaster. If Rajaat was more than 10 levels maybe 15 levels higher than Borys who was level 30 the Champions combined couldn't have trapped him in the first place and its unlikely they could have done it at all if he was truly divine which with the whole Athas has no gods means he wasn't. He also wouldn't be trapped in the hollow which it is obvious he wants out of so he didn't plan to get trapped in it.
How much personal power Rajaat had vs how much he drew fom the Dark Lens and Pristine tower is kinda relevent. I doubt he could have drawn on the power of Athas sun without the Pristine tower.
Using their 2nd ed stats Dregoth is toast on Faerun if he went there. Chanteas and Silvanus avatar would eat him alive (undead?).
Come to think of it, would the nature gods get mad at a defiler? People destroy forests in other ways on Toril, just not by defiling, they don't send an avatar every time someone chops down a tree, or uproots a bush.
And what would they think of preserving magic? Preservers are generally good, though they can be evil, and most of the nature gods are either good or neutral. If they didn't like them draining some life from plants they would probably just simply tell them not to do it first before attacking them.
Druid 40/Cleric 20+ avatar abilities or Druid 40, Fighter 25, Wizard 20 vs Dregoths stats in city by the Sea of Silt.
Dregoth can't be turned, and has magic resistance, though there's always the lower resistance spell, and magic resistance applies against that at half it's normal value. He must have defiled plants on worlds that had deities before.
Borys is a match for some of the demipowers maybe lesser deities avatars and out matches most Netherise as well except for the big ones like Karsus, Ioulaum, Telamont.
It really depends on the avatar, the kobold god's avatar is a complete wimp, even though that god is a greater power.
n 3.5 terms Rajaat is still a mortal as he would have no divine ranks which means a death god can go die and Rajaat will die. He is the most powerful mortal on Athas (mortal as in not a deity). He doesn't grant spells but steals the power from the planes.
As do the sorcerer-kings with their living vorticies, but they are still real priest spells and are just as powerful as ones granted by gods, a miracle is a miracle, whether it's granted by a god or the elemental planes.
They never statted Rajaat out but most people underestimate how much damage a level 40-45 wizard can do (or even 35) due to the open ended nature of the 3.0 travesty known as the Epic Level Handbook which rules/mechanics wise was a mess if not outright disaster. If Rajaat was more than 10 levels maybe 15 levels higher than Borys who was level 30 the Champions combined couldn't have trapped him in the first place and its unlikely they could have done it at all if he was truly divine which with the whole Athas has no gods means he wasn't. He also wouldn't be trapped in the hollow which it is obvious he wants out of so he didn't plan to get trapped in it.
I would say he's a lot higher than 40th level. He's ten millennia old. And he could create as many 20th level mages he needed to serve him with the dark lens. Say he brought 1000 20th level mages to Faerun and invaded it.
Mystaras avatar is a level 40/40 fighter/wizard in 2nd ed terms, can cast 2 offensive spells and 2 defensive spells per turn and if she exhausts hers spells per day she can still cast 1 offensive spell and one offensive spell per turn. Her spells ignore magic reistence and have -3 on te saving throw and can deal riple damage, range or effect. She also ignores the effect of any spell used against her unless she wants to be effected by it.
Borys, Dregoth and all the SK's using their 2nd ed stats vs 2nd ed FR avatar stats against Mystra and thye lose. The other Avatars of greater gods have similar abilities.
Defiling doesn't just destroy the plant growth but renders the area infertile and will set off a deities portfolio sens for several nature gods. At the very least you're looking at Chanuntea,and Silvanus getting hacked off (Chauntea is Toril BTW). Thats just the avatars, if a deity wants you dead you basically die for the most part in 2nd ed.
In 3rd ed terms none of the SK's or Rajaat would have divine ranks which for purposes of salient abilities make them mortals. There are several deity abilities to blast a mortal into oblivion with no save, no spell resistence and a range of 1-20miles or even planar. Net result is Rajaat is dead noo ifs or buts.
In 4th ed Borys for example wouild likely be a level 30 solo. Tiamat and some uber powerful Primordial have been statted out as level 35 challenges and are curently the biggest bads in the 4th ed system and following the rules level 35 is the highest an NPC can achieve at the most Rajaat is level 35. Since he isn't a god, and wasn't one of the primordials who created the univers odds are he isn't level 35. That would make him level 31-34. Being generous lets make him level 34. This actually makes alot of sense as a level 30 Borys + assorted SKs in the level 21-24 could united imprison Rajaat. He probably has some divine like ability Tiamat has regarding a final death for him (can only be slain in a specific way).
If I had to guess at Rajaats level heres where I would place him by edition.
2nd ed. Level 40-45. 45 was the highest rules in 2nd ed I can think of that would let you stat out an NPC (Netheril Empire of Magic) and Rajaats powers are similar to the greatest of Netheris wizards Karsus and Ioulaum
3.0/3.5. Level 35-40 assuming the SKs are CR 21-35ish monsters, higher if you use Athas.orgs rules. If he is more than half a dozen levels higher than Borys under 3.5 rules he basically wins by default vs the champions due to the power level of magic in that game system. Remember in 3.5 a CR37 critter is supposed to be twice as tough as a CR35 critter, 4 times as tough as a CR 33, and 8 times as tough as a CR31 etc. 12 champions+Borys managed to imprison him so he must have been only slightly stronger if not about equal to them combined.
4th ed. Rajaat about level 31-34, 35 at the most.
These guess are based on what is known about Rajaat, the mechanics of the systems, and what NPCs of similar power level can and did achieve in various settings. Theres no reason to make Rajaat level 100 which is jus stupid because he is a "big awesum wizard"
A level 35 or so wizard is a "big awesum wizard" and could likely do what Rajaat done given enough time, money, resources, the Dark Lens and Pristine power.
No Rajaat isn't divine and he would likely get the holy smackdown if he tried to take on anything much tougher than a demigod. Some of the salient divine powers would just kill him with no saving throws and 17 mile ranges or moreand the deities would know weeks in advance if he was to attack them. Some deities could also just say no you can't cast spells if he went to another world as his spellcasting would have to use that worlds magic rules.
Hi, OK, wait a second here. What makes you think that gods can just 'switch off' the SK's powers? Am I misunderstanding this? Some clarification on how i understood this concept:
Sorcerer-Kings use Defiling, Defiling is arcane magic, hence drawing from the Arcane Power source (admittedly a supercharged way that also draws surrounding life energy (Interesting: perhaps similar to how devils use 'Souls shells' for power?).
Furthermore, to achieve this transformation they combine Defiling with Psionic powers. The two combined are required to achieve this long transformation. (opposed to Avengion which is Preserving(arcane) with Psionics). Neither the Arcane link, nor the Psionics is in any way related to the gods.
Furthermore, as a Sorcerer-King, they become a conduit of (but cannot draw from this themselves) energy from other elemental and quasi elemental planes which they can 'Grant' to their 'Clerics'. I read somewhere that at this point the energy transferred becomes the Divine type. But it is NOT divine from the source, how could it come from a divine source if Athas is completely blocked off from the larger Astral.
So 3.5 gods could not just 'decide' to not grant SK's their powers. (they use arcane and psionic power source) nor their 'cleric's (who draw divine power from the SK's, who receive it from the elemental realms.)
Now I'm not sure, but can 4e gods cut off someone from their divine power source? In 4e an evil cleric or paladin retain their powers, it comes from the church (?faith?) or in the paladin's case from the transformational ritual.
Interestingly, this way sorcerer-kings channel power through themselves which becomes divine energy could be an argument for the 'divinity' of the sorcerer kings. Of course, they are more like false gods, and not truly divine. Although I suppose you do have a lot of people 'believing' in them
BTW, as per the topic of the thread, Rajaat is not, in any way, "divine". Even if he happens to be super-mega-powerful, he is not a god. He can't grant even grant Priest spells, and has no divine spark.
Hi, OK, wait a second here. What makes you think that gods can just 'switch off' the SK's powers? Am I misunderstanding this? Some clarification on how i understood this concept:
Sorcerer-Kings use Defiling, Defiling is arcane magic, hence drawing from the Arcane Power source (admittedly a supercharged way that also draws surrounding life energy (Interesting: perhaps similar to how devils use 'Souls shells' for power?).
Furthermore, to achieve this transformation they combine Defiling with Psionic powers. The two combined are required to achieve this long transformation. (opposed to Avengion which is Preserving(arcane) with Psionics). Neither the Arcane link, nor the Psionics is in any way related to the gods.
Furthermore, as a Sorcerer-King, they become a conduit of (but cannot draw from this themselves) energy from other elemental and quasi elemental planes which they can 'Grant' to their 'Clerics'. I read somewhere that at this point the energy transferred becomes the Divine type. But it is NOT divine from the source, how could it come from a divine source if Athas is completely blocked off from the larger Astral.
So 3.5 gods could not just 'decide' to not grant SK's their powers. (they use arcane and psionic power source) nor their 'cleric's (who draw divine power from the SK's, who receive it from the elemental realms.)
Now I'm not sure, but can 4e gods cut off someone from their divine power source? In 4e an evil cleric or paladin retain their powers, it comes from the church (?faith?) or in the paladin's case from the transformational ritual.
Interestingly, this way sorcerer-kings channel power through themselves which becomes divine energy could be an argument for the 'divinity' of the sorcerer kings. Of course, they are more like false gods, and not truly divine. Although I suppose you do have a lot of people 'believing' in them
Defiling works on Athas because there is no other power source. Alot of material in 2nd ed was contradictory but as a general rule from Dragon magazine, Spelljammer and maybe planescape once a wizard traveled to another world the wizard would have to use that worlds rules on magic.
There has never been a single cannon case that I'm aware of that anyine at all defiled on Faerun (Forgotton Realms). Odds are any wizard or Sorcerer King that reached Faerun would have to use the weave as by the rules of that world Defiling would not work as all magic is powered by the weave or shadow weave. Psionics works fine BTW. One of the godess powers was being able to cut any beings access off from the weave. This would include a Sorcerer King or Rajaat himself.
Assuming defiling did work (a big if) it would immediately alert several nature gods (in 3.5 rules) and the magic gods would not like a new challenge to the traditional ways of doing things. Most SKs using their 2nd ed stats would get there butts handed to them by an avatar of various gods using the gods second ed stats as fouud in Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities vs stats in Beyond the Prism Pentad for Hamanu and the like. Borys is a bit tougher but a greater gods avatar could probably deal with him. IN both 2nd and 3rd ed the actual god itself could deal with any SK very easily, some can just kill them with a thought no ifs, no buts and no saving throw (Salient Divine Powers see 3rd eds Deitis and Demigods for godly powers).
If 13 Sorcerer Kings can defeat and imprison Rajaat on hos own turf its a safe bet IMHO that a greater god who can create 15-19 Avatars each on par with Borys can probably defeat Rajaat and thats not counting any salient divine abilities that avatar has or the actual abilities of the deity itself. Even a lesser power that can only create 6 Avatars can single handedly defeat several Sorcerer Kings by itself. At best a SK is roughly equal to a demigod in power level but more like an archfiend.