/facepalm
/faceplam
/headdesk
One can fudge overland movement numbers for these two in their home game, recreating their great 2e fast movement, but any kind of official game will depict them using mounts unless WotC did something about it in the DS rulebook, something they haven't told us.
There may be an overland movement table listing all PC races independent of the racial entries.
/facepalm
/faceplam
/headdesk
There was nothing wrong with Thri-Kreen in DS. Why did they have to change that?
What are you people talking about? What's wrong with Thri-Kreen? What part of that image isn't awesome?
What are you people talking about? What's wrong with Thri-Kreen? What part of that image isn't awesome?
Thri-Kreen and Elves, in 2E and in the 3/3.5E materials derived from it, were repulsed by the idea of riding a kank. Largly in part because they could outrun a Kank anyway, so it would be like -- why ride a Ford Pinto when you have a Ferrari Maserati? This was noted in the novels as well (except for the Nomad series, which deviated a lot from other DS materials in a number of ways).
So, for purists, it is very... unsettling to see a Thri-Kreen riding a Kank.
What are you people talking about? What's wrong with Thri-Kreen? What part of that image isn't awesome?
Nothing... it's... fine. A perfectly awesome image... unless you're planning on playing Dark Sun /headdesk/headdesk/headdesk
Nothing... it's... fine. A perfectly awesome image... unless you're planning on playing Dark Sun /headdesk/headdesk/headdesk
However, you gotta admit -- there is a LOT of muddy water when it comes to what is or isn't valid or correct in Dark Sun... Half of the material that had been written for it (in game supplement or novel form) contradicted the other half, not very much really lined up nicely with each other, and that's not even going into the confusion from the DS1 and DS2 campaign settings, the complications of the Prism Pentad series of books (and executions of most of the SK's), I think WotC just drew a line (basically at Verdant Passage) in the proverbial sand, and went from there, constructing Dark Sun in a clearer, more concise way. And in their new version, maybe Thri-Kreen and Elves do ride Kanks... makes for a slightly simpler mechanic to work with in the games... Waters some things down a bit, sure, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't as much as other options (see: Half-Giants), and it does make some sense.
Alright, Uncle Orm's Story Time!
(aka Why It's Ironic You're Being Picky)
Did you know that humans ride horses not because horses are faster than humans, but because riding a horse a long distance is less tiring to the human and allows carrying a heavier load over a longer distance?
Horses are only fast over short distances, otherwise, they're about as fast as a human over long distances (or less because humans have significantly better long-distance endurance).
For example, riders for the Pony Express only achieved 10-15 mph (a canter) and had to change horses every 10-15 miles or risk killing the horse. And these guys were only carrying messages. As you add weight, both the rider's and possessions, and more difficult terrain, the horse has to slow and rest more often.
The fastest type of horse (IIRC) is a quarter horse conditioned for racing, which can achieve a pace around 45mph at full gallop, but can only maintain that for a few miles before needing a long rest. Horses usually move about as fast as a walking human, assuming flat ground.
US Cavalry would patrol up to 40 miles a day in 10 hours, with specifically tiered walks, trots, and canters (however, this distance was over smooth ground). Infantry can go 40 in 8 if pushed (but 20-30 in 8 is standard, if you don't want the men worn down) over even hilly terrain.
The question for Athas then becomes, "Why WOULDN'T thri-kreen ride kank?" Especially if they had a great deal of equipment or other supplies to move, or long distances to travel? It would be foolish not to.
Quad Mandible AWESOME.
You've ever seen an ant flying on the back of a firefly because it's faster? (or something that looks alike)
No. Then again, ants aren't sentient, tool-using creatures who might think to domesticate fireflies for logistical transportation or resource capturing needs. (Though I have seen one mammal riding on top of another -- a hairless ape racing around on top of a quadraped, I think. WEIRD, huh?)
Elves it was a matter of pride I think. Elves loved "the run" (or whatever they called it) and kanks were for the injured and old basicly.
I guess that can toss all that in 4E, but for those of us who played old school Dark Sun, seeing an elf or thri-kreen on a kank is strange.
Thri-kreen didn't ride kanks because kanks are food. Riding a kank is like playing with your food (to them).
No, elves are food. If it was a picture of a thri-kreen on the back of an elf, then that would be weird.
read this:
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/15607610...
or this:
www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url...
thri-kreen on a kank...?
/headdesk!
greyorm...
read this:
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/15607610...
or this:
www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url...
thri-kreen on a kank...?
/headdesk!
In days of old...thri-kreen had a thorax and were large creatures. Not very conducive to riding kanks. Thye have changed though. Obviously not the better for you, but that's okay. Personally I like the new version just as much as the older one.
I think that some of you are being very unreasonable and elitist about this. Most players could not give two ****s whether this image fits in with the supposedly established lore. All they care about is whether it looks cool, and it does.
I think you're failing to understand the comments. Those of us who played original Dark Sun see it as something that stands out to us specificly against the lore we know. It isn't like we're talking about going to beat our grandmothers in rage because of this or anything, or not buy the book.
It just something that stands out to us old timers.
Actually there are still plenty of people that care, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation Crimson_Concerto, behave please.
Now as far as various species use of mounts goes; Elves did not ride as a social issue, it was considered a sign of weakness. Kreen on the other hand could not ride most beast as they were mechanically the same size as most mounts plus they had the (now lacking) thorax, as someone above mentioned (sorry couldn't relocate your post to credit you) There is also the Kreen mentality to take in to account as well - the part about not owning more then one can personally carry.
Is the image cool, yeah I'll give it that; is it odd, again to my old-school mind yeah. There has been reference to the "its like playing with one's food" line that as I recall was written by an in-universe human source (the Wanderer) so I'm not sure about the purity in that fact. Then there is the fact that nothing eats a kank: for as soon as one dies the odor produced is said to repel even the most desperate away.
I have no problem if 4E changes things so now everyone rides kanks. Again, it is just something that stands out, since they haven't been riding kanks for almost 20 years or somthing :P
Actually there are still plenty of people that care, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation...
Yeah, but what I don't get is why anybody cares. Nobody's done a good job of explaining it as anything other than typical old grognard elitism. Thri-Kreen don't have gigantic abdomens to get in the way anymore (and they look infinitely better without them anyways), and I don't by any of that crap about the stereotypical racial mentality or cultural tradition of Elves or Thri-Kreen because racial stereotypes are just that and nothing more, so while this image may be interesting and different in more ways than one, I fail to see why it's so problematic or how it could generate so much hate. I mean, it's such a minor thing. "/facepalm"-ing or "/headdesk"-ing about it is beyond immature.
Dark Sun is going to rock unbelievably \m/
I think that some of you are being very unreasonable and elitist about this. Most players could not give two ****s whether this image fits in with the supposedly established lore. All they care about is whether it looks cool, and it does.
I think you're failing to understand the comments. Those of us who played original Dark Sun see it as something that stands out to us specificly against the lore we know. It isn't like we're talking about going to beat our grandmothers in rage because of this or anything, or not buy the book.
It just something that stands out to us old timers.
Oldschool DS player here, and I'm totally cool with Tri-kreen riding kanks, as long as their overland speed is better.
This is the NEW DS. If what you want to play is the Old DS, play the Old DS. I don't want a 1-by-1 conversion of Dark Sun, cause I can do that myself. I want new stuff, I want the old stuff re-fitted when it worked, and reworked when needed. I want something familiar but NEW.
Oldschool DS player here, and I'm totally cool with Tri-kreen riding kanks, as long as their overland speed is better.
This is the NEW DS. If what you want to play is the Old DS, play the Old DS. I don't want a 1-by-1 conversion of Dark Sun, cause I can do that myself. I want new stuff, I want the old stuff re-fitted when it worked, and reworked when needed. I want something familiar but NEW.
Agreed. When it comes down to it, this is picking at small details that don't really impact the setting or game much at all. So TK's ride kanks now... big deal.
Likewise, old school DS player. Been playing it since the day it was released. I have zero problems with this.
The argument from others (and from the Thri-Kreen of Athas supplement) is silly. We ride horses, yes? We also eat horses. Sure, modern Westerners may see that as abhorrent, yet it remains true that horse is most assuredly eaten and ridden simultaneously, and always has been.
Even with thri-kreen being swift and able to run for a long, long time, kanks SHOULD move faster (6 running legs, not 2), and carry more gear. Thus, kreen on kanks makes perfect sense.
Nostalgia be damned, give me logic and reason, thank you very much! ;)
I personally dont like darksun, but i can see why the poster isnt happy. There comes a point where a race looks different enough and acts different enough to no longer be that race. From what i can gather, the Thri-Kreen were giant bugs. They were not "bug people", or "humanoid bugs", they were giant bugs and they looked and acted like bugs.
Dark Sun is a strange setting in that the setting really is all it has. It's not the usual "gods run it all" kind of place that we see in other settings, its special because it works completey differently to what we expect. The more that this basic principle is changed, say, with Thri-Kreen riding animals and looking less like giant bugs, the more the "Dark Sun" setting becomes "4Th Edition Desert wars" and thats not good.
Dark Sun works completely different from what we expect. Dark Sun isn't "awesome." It isn't "cool." It's different. That's what makes it cool & awesome. The strangeness of the setting makes it unique & special. If you remove the strangeness, then there's no point to playing Dark Sun. OR RATHER, there's no point to buying a disappointing book.
WotC's sourcebooks have been disappointing me lately. I haven't bought anything since "The Plane Below."And even then I just gave it away, the book's material was so useless to me. I hate wasting money like that.
I'm definitely skipping this Dark Sun adventure. I might even skip buying the campaign setting or the monster book. WotC has to convince me to give them my money. So far, they're failing.
I'm definitely skipping this Dark Sun adventure. I might even skip buying the campaign setting or the monster book. WotC has to convince me to give them my money. So far, they're failing.
Because there's a tri-kreen riding a kank.
Take no offence, but boy I am glad WotC isn't designing stuff in order to sell it to you ^_^ .
1) It reduces the diversity between the species that the players can play. TK needing a mount, and not having a large abdomen means that they are one step closer to being nothing but mechanical optimization values instead of 'hey these guys tickle my imagination more than these other guys'.
2) Mechanically there was nothing to balance here. Mounted combat rarely happens, and if it really is a 'big deal' that TK be able to ride something too in the event that it does, well, a lot of stuff in the setting has howdas so TKs could ride on one of those. Overland movement is largely a roleplaying thing, and letting a TK have an advantage here is really letting them have a roleplay advantage, which don't get broken into crazy DPR builds.
It was a pointless change that cost the setting some of its uniqueness and didn't get anything in return.
I think the change is bad because:
1) It reduces the diversity between the species that the players can play. TK needing a mount, and not having a large abdomen means that they are one step closer to being nothing but mechanical optimization values instead of 'hey these guys tickle my imagination more than these other guys'.
2) Mechanically there was nothing to balance here. Mounted combat rarely happens, and if it really is a 'big deal' that TK be able to ride something too in the event that it does, well, a lot of stuff in the setting has howdas so TKs could ride on one of those. Overland movement is largely a roleplaying thing, and letting a TK have an advantage here is really letting them have a roleplay advantage, which don't get broken into crazy DPR builds.
It was a pointless change that cost the setting some of its uniqueness and didn't get anything in return.
- There is nothing saying a TK needs a mount, just that a TK in that picture is riding one.
- There is no mechanical details here, just a picture. An artist's depiction. And honestly, not the first artistic depiction of something from Dark Sun that is not necessarily accurate (Paizo's Dim Sun & Hamanu for an example).
I think, quite honestly, this is being blown way, way, way out of proportion by some people here.
That picture is what's jazzing me up for Dark Sun.
It's a bug! RIDING A BUG!
Where do they come up with this stuff?
I'm definitely skipping this Dark Sun adventure. I might even skip buying the campaign setting or the monster book. WotC has to convince me to give them my money. So far, they're failing.
Because there's a tri-kreen riding a kank.
Take no offence, but boy I am glad WotC isn't designing stuff in order to sell it to you ^_^ .
You fail to see the point. The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?
Its the Eberron dragonmarks all over again "Sky is falling, in 4E humans can have mark of shadow". To that I just said "Ok, im my campaigns it is still a mostly elven thing like it was in 3.5E. If someone wants to play the exception to the rule and that ends into a valuable and remembarable character - more power to him."
TKs can ride kanks... big deal - it's not like they HAVE TO or like the whole setting will be focused upon TKs ridding kanks.
You fail to see the point. The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?
But the setting is different, from what I've seen, in the 4E incarnation. Despite the situation where WotC is "normalizing" (to a degree) the different settings so that they can focus on releasing books and materials that could be used in any setting, rather than a whole slew of divergent setting-specific books, and as such, some things need to be reworked mechanically to fit within that scope.
That said, Athasian races are still with Athasian flavor. Athas is still Athas, the SK's are still big perpetual thorns in many peoples' backsides. So the TK's have been altered to have no abdomen -- that already had been done in 3/3.5, so I fail to see why people are shocked by it now. So what if TK's ride kanks? You don't have to allow that in your campaigns, after all. Or maybe (the direction I'll probably take) some TK clutches refrain from riding kanks, while others don't mind using them.
Like I said, from what I've seen, 4E Dark Sun still is full of its own flavor and diversity, and is quite unique, despite the somewhat-normalized aspect of the mechanics.
You fail to see the point. The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?
Two things here:
- we can safely have the Athas we know and love with Tri Kreen riding Kankas. It's not like they turned Rajaat from Human to Pyreen or they killed half of the Dragon Kings or put a forest in the middle of the desert or made it rain on Athas. OH WAI- yeah, point being, Dark Sun and Dark Sun fans survived through so much crap and earthshattering changes that I can't see anyone (aside from haters who are gonna hate change of any form) being scared by Tri Kreen riding Kankas.
- it's a friggin ant man riding a friggin ant mount on Mars. Do you think anyone seriously risks mistaking that for Forgotten Realms?
It reduces the diversity between the species that the players can play.
No, it doesn't. If anything, it increases the number of possible character options. Before, Thri-Kreen with mounts didn't exist*. Now, they do. That sounds like more options and more diversity to me.
*Supposedly, that is. I don't buy it.
TK needing a mount, and not having a large abdomen means that they are one step closer to being nothing but mechanical optimization values instead of 'hey these guys tickle my imagination more than these other guys'.
(A) Nothing about this image suggests that Thri-Kreen "need" a mount.
(B) Isn't it almost unanimously agreed upon that they look significantly less silly and a lot more accessible and playable without the massive abdomens? If you make a race too different, it stops being desirable or even appropriate for PC use.
Mechanically there was nothing to balance here.
You mean that there was nothing that could be balanced. "Thri-Kreen can't ride mounts" is a racial penalty, and those were supposed to be thrown out this edition exactly because racial penalties don't work very well. All that they do is encourage players to play characters that ignore the penalties while taking advantage of the bonus gotten in it's place, so if you're really so concerned about Thri-Kreen being "one step closer to being nothing but mechanical optimization values instead of 'hey these guys tickle my imagination more than these other guys'", then this is a good thing.
It was a pointless change that cost the setting some of its uniqueness and didn't get anything in return.
No, you got it backwards. We got an awesome and unique piece of artwork that didn't cost the setting a damn thing.
The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
How?
What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?
Dark Sun works completely different from what we expect. Dark Sun isn't "awesome." It isn't "cool." It's different. That's what makes it cool & awesome. The strangeness of the setting makes it unique & special. If you remove the strangeness, then there's no point to playing Dark Sun. OR RATHER, there's no point to buying a disappointing book.
So what you two are saying is that the entire campaign setting is no longer original or cool or interesting or different just because the cover of one of the adventure modules depicts a Thri-Kreen riding a Kank?...
Are you reading what you're typing?
What you're seeing in this piece of artwork is like an eclipse. It's a rare and unique event, and it's awesome. But for some reason, you're getting all freaked out about it like you don't think that the sun will ever shine again or that this darkness will becomes the norm.
For all you know, these Thri-Kreen could be betraying their cultural stereotype because their minds are being controlled by < insert generic evil things here, like Mind Flayers >, and the goal of the adventure module is to free these Thri-Kreen from their captives.
So what you two are saying is that the entire campaign setting is no longer original or cool or interesting or different just because the cover of one of the adventure modules depicts a Thri-Kreen riding a Kank?
You are correct in saying that we don't have all the information. But, it is possibly indicative of a larger problem. I hope that we are still early enough in the design process to have our opinions heard to help the game designers make changes for the better.
if you're really so concerned about Thri-Kreen being "one step closer to being nothing but mechanical optimization values instead of 'hey these guys tickle my imagination more than these other guys'", then this is a good thing.
Then why should I buy the book? If the book offers nothing in the way of thri-kreen culture... If the whole point of having a thri-kren write up is to get its crunchy numbers to make a character, then why should I buy the book? I can get that from the character builder with my DDi subscription.
No, you got it backwards. We got an awesome and unique piece of artwork that didn't cost the setting a damn thing.
I actually disagree. Technically speaking, I think this particular piece of art is lacking in a couple of places. But I don't want to start debating the aesthetic values of a piece of art. We're talking about its implications. Which, by the way, it DID cost the setting a "damn thing," because it's removing interesting flavour from thri-kreen. With the removal of alot of the fluff in the last decade of D&D, alot of D&D's atmosphere is set by the presented artwork. With a setting as unique as Dark Sun, it's doubly important to make sure the artwork depicts exactly what you want. Can you honestly say that Star Wars was improved with Jar Jar Binks as the new Chewbacca? It's the same sort of thing.
Athasian races are still with Athasian flavor
That's kind of what I'm talking about. If thri-kreen can ride kanks, then that makes me fearful for the type, more specifically the lack, of flavour that WotC will present us.
I think, quite honestly, this is being blown way, way, way out of proportion by some people here.
Sorry to give that impression. Just trying to address what I/we see as a problem while there is still time to make changes for the better.
You've ever seen an ant flying on the back of a firefly because it's faster? (or something that looks alike)
In CGI Dreamworks and Pixar movies, ants with other flying insects (though not fireflies).
And it was awesome. Fireflies would have been even more awesome because they glow. Alas!
(I also remember the tiny, frail Woody Allen ant piggy-back riding the big, muscular ant at some point.)
Anyways. Dark Sun is not Dark Sun because of petty details, it's Dark Sun because of a larger concept. I replied in the other thread the OP made with a link about an American anthropologist who freaks out because some African tribe keeps changing details in Hamlet, but in the end they're better able to move the story along and "get" the plot, often predicting how things are going to turn out in a general sense, even if they expect different details.
Why don't men wear dresses to work? Dresses are easier to wear. More comfortable. Easier & less expensive to make (in terms of materials, etc).
So, logically speaking, men should wear dresses, too.
Yet, we don't. This is a deifining cultural characteristic.
Thri-kreen NOT riding kanks is another cultural characteristic. There's nothing that should stop them from riding a kank, in the same way that there is nothing from stopping a man from wearing a dress to work.
A thri-kreen riding a kank would be like a man deciding to wear a dress to work. Some men DO decide to wear dresses. And what interesting "role-playing" opportunities arise from that! It should work that way with thri-kreen riding kanks.
Showing a thri-kreen riding a kank is bad because it damages a vital aspect of the thri-kreen culture & removes role-playing opportunities.
If the book offers nothing in the way of thri-kreen culture...
How do you know that? Tell me, how many Human cultures do you think exist? I myself wouldn't dare to guess. Are they all the same? Of course not! Should you expect all Thri-Kreen cultures to be the same? Again, of course not! What's true for Thri-Kreen of culture A will not necessarily be true of Thri-Kreen of culture B, even if culture A encompasses the vast majority of those encountered in a setting and culture B represents a small minority that is isolated and unknown to the rest of the world. Either way, to suggest that every single member of a race shares the same culture or values or outlooks is as completely ridiculous in any D&D setting as it is in the real world. For all you know, this image could be foreshadowing on an alternative Thri-Kreen culture to explore, one that has its own unique aspects and outlooks, part of which may involve using Kanks a mounts.
...it's removing interesting flavour from thri-kreen.
You don't know that at all. You have no idea. There are many possibilities for what could be going on in the piece, ranging from mind-controlled Thri-Kreen, which removes nothing at all, to the introduction of an alternative Thri-Kreen culture, which, if anything, adds interesting flavor to the race and keeps them from all being exactly the same. Expecting all Thri-Kreen to get along and share the same opinions about everything because they must obviously share the same culture is exactly as ridiculous as expecting all Humans to get along and share the same opinions about everything because they must obviously share the same culture.
Why don't thri-kreen ride kanks?
Why don't men wear dresses to work? Dresses are easier to wear. More comfortable. Easier & less expensive to make (in terms of materials, etc).
So, logically speaking, men should wear dresses, too.
Yet, we don't. This is a deifining cultural characteristic.
No, it is a defining cultural characteristic of some men in some human cultures. Have you ever heard of a kilt? It is exactly as ridiculous to suggest that all Thri-Kreen must share the same culture as it is to suggest that all Humans must share the same culture.
EDIT:
Furthermore, do you know of any cultures at all in which every member agrees with everything that the culture considers to be a norm? Because I don't. I can tell you right now that I know plenty of men who would love to be able to wear dresses to work without getting weird looks and plenty more who do it anyways, even despite getting weird looks.
EDIT:
Some men DO decide to wear dresses. And what interesting "role-playing" opportunities arise from that! It should work that way with thri-kreen riding kanks.
How do you know that's not what the image is depicting?
The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
How?What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?Dark Sun works completely different from what we expect. Dark Sun isn't "awesome." It isn't "cool." It's different. That's what makes it cool & awesome. The strangeness of the setting makes it unique & special. If you remove the strangeness, then there's no point to playing Dark Sun. OR RATHER, there's no point to buying a disappointing book.
So what you two are saying is that the entire campaign setting is no longer original or cool or interesting or different just because the cover of one of the adventure modules depicts a Thri-Kreen riding a Kank?...
Are you reading what you're typing?
Well actually you obviously didnt read what I wrote. A few of you get stick with the TK riding a Kank and just can't pass over it.
I'm talking of a LARGER PROBLEM. Maybe you need a real picture to understand? I dont know.
Maybe it's an extraordinary example. Maybe, but what do you want to show for a setting? Thing that happen once in 1000 years or something that actually IS the setting and that SHOULD happen on a regular basis? Where will the characters will live? In continual special events that should almost never happen?
Think BIGGER, what is a TK ride a Kank... Why shouldnt we have a larger sea in the north? Why shouldnt we have halfling that arent cannibal to please the peoples? Why shouldnt we have half-elf loved by everybody? Why shouldnt we have wizard elf that show their trinkets on the market without fear to be linched? Why shouldnt Nibenay have male templar? I could name those forever.
BECAUSE IT'S DARKSUN AND BECAUSE IT'S WHAT MAKE THE SETTING PARTICULARLY SPECIAL.
Wake up and read what I write.
Ah yes, and for this :
(B) Isn't it almost unanimously agreed upon that they look significantly less silly and a lot more accessible and playable without the massive abdomens? If you make a race too different, it stops being desirable or even appropriate for PC use.
I've played TK and actually was quite please to see that I couldnt play it like an humanoid. Why should we create a insect with few insect characteristics? Why shouldnt he not appropriate for PC use? Because peoples want to have a Diablo or computer RPG equivalent on tabletop RPG ? GEEZ NO. If you are a real RPer, you will try to adapt and have fun with your choice.
Grow and evolve. Thanks.
You fail to see the point. The picture is more bigger than just a riding kank.
What is the interest in trying to shape all world as the same with just simple nitpicks here and there? We want a setting different from the others, not a setting that smell just like every "normal" setting. What's the POINT in buying a setting that smell all the same?
I'd argue these characteristics of old Dark Sun are what made it unpopular and -- to many people -- unplayable. Playing in 2E Dark Sun forced you to throw out any system mastery you had acquired. In exchange... you were still playing D&D with all of the 1E/2E flaws. Given the time this campaign setting came out, most people I remember who appreciated the setting were playing RIFTS or GURPS already.
Why don't thri-kreen ride kanks?
Why don't men wear dresses to work? Dresses are easier to wear. More comfortable. Easier & less expensive to make (in terms of materials, etc).
So, logically speaking, men should wear dresses, too.
Yet, we don't. This is a deifining cultural characteristic.
Fallacious argument. It is both a slippery slope *and* a false comparison, your comparison bears no relevance to the discussion.
Thri-kreen NOT riding kanks is another cultural characteristic. There's nothing that should stop them from riding a kank, in the same way that there is nothing from stopping a man from wearing a dress to work.
A thri-kreen riding a kank would be like a man deciding to wear a dress to work. Some men DO decide to wear dresses. And what interesting "role-playing" opportunities arise from that! It should work that way with thri-kreen riding kanks.
Showing a thri-kreen riding a kank is bad because it damages a vital aspect of the thri-kreen culture & removes role-playing opportunities.
Ok, are you aware, at all, that this is not the first time such a thing was depicted? Elves were the same thing -- they didn't ride kanks (they considered it beneath them to do so)... and yet there is a trilogy of novels (The Nomad series), plus an additional one on top of them in the Chronicles of Athas series that has, at its core, a tribe of elvish kank-herders who ride the kanks. Dark Sun seemed to survive that, I think it will survive a depiction of a 'kreen riding a kank on a cover of an adventure module.
Grow and evolve. Thanks.
Maybe it's an extraordinary example. Maybe, but what do you want to show for a setting? Thing that happen once in 1000 years or something that actually IS the setting and that SHOULD happen on a regular basis? Where will the characters will live? In continual special events that should almost never happen?
Forgotten Realms. Drizzt Do'Urden.
If Drizzt can extraordinarily successfully define Forgotten Realms while being totally contrary to the norm, then this Thri-Kreen can do the same.
I've played TK and actually was quite please to see that I couldnt play it like an humanoid.
You still can't play it like a humanoid. There has been no change here.
Why should we create a insect with few insect characteristics?
It's ridiculous to suggest that removing the Thri-Kreen abdomen demotes them from "definitely insectoid" to "merely sort of insectoid". Thri-Kreen are still "definitely insectoid".
Because peoples want to have a Diablo or computer RPG equivalent on tabletop RPG ? GEEZ NO.
WTF does that have to do with anything ever?
If you are a real RPer...
It's funny because I was just talking about kilts and now I'm going to point you to "no true Scotsman".
{Comparing thri-kreen riding a kank to men wearing dresses} Fallacious argument. It is both a slippery slope *and* a false comparison, your comparison bears no relevance to the discussion.
I disagree. They are both examples of defining cultural characteristics.
If Drizzt can extraordinarily successfully define Forgotten Realms while being totally contrary to the norm, then this Thri-Kreen can do the same.
Except that this thri-kreen is a faceless representative of the race in general, while Drizzit was a named individual with unique characteristics. Players can do whatever they want with their characters. Since WotC is the Word of God, whatever they present us with is a role-playing springboard of culture which we can emulate or differentiate ourselves from as we please. In other words, whatever WotC shows us is, by definition, the norm. If WotC says, "thri-kreen ride kanks now," then I'm afraid that they're dumping the rest of the fluff out, too.
How do you know that? Tell me, how many Hum... [SNIP] ...has its own unique aspects and outlooks, part of which may involve using Kanks a mounts.
Of course. That goes without saying. The only thing that an RPG publisher can hope to do is present fluffy options for their players. For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas. Seeing the artwork on the upcoming adventure makes me afraid that WotC will fail to provide the amount of fluff that I would like to see.
Expecting all Thri-Kreen to get along and share the same opinions about everything because they must obviously share the same culture is exactly as ridiculous as expecting all Humans to get along and share the same opinions about everything because they must obviously share the same culture.
All of your concerns are addressed in the Thri-kreen of Athas book.
No, it is a defining cultural characteristic of some men in some human cultures. Have you ever heard of a kilt? It is exactly as ridiculous to suggest that all Thri-Kreen must share the same culture as it is to suggest that all Humans must share the same culture.
I'm sorry for the confusion. I was talking about the thri-kreen who originate in the Tyr region of the Tablelands in the Dark Sun setting. Note that I'm not talking about player's thri-kreen characeters. They can do whatever they want, subject to their DM's discretion.
Furthermore, do you know of any cultures at all in which every member agrees with everything that the culture considers to be a norm?
yeah, actually. That's kind of the definition of the word "norm."
I can tell you right now that I know plenty of men who would love to be able to wear dresses to work without getting weird looks and plenty more who do it anyways, even despite getting weird looks.
Excellent! :D And that's exactly what I'm talking about. That desire to wear dresses & those weird looks are called "role playing."
Imagine if wearing dresses was a non-issue. The conversation would go something like this:
A: I'm wearing SHOES!
B:.... so?
See how we lose the opportunity for role-play? It's the same with depicting a thri-kreen riding a kank. He's as normal as a guy wearing shoes to work. And that's boring.
How do you know that? Tell me, how many Hum... [SNIP] ...has its own unique aspects and outlooks, part of which may involve using Kanks a mounts.
Of course. That goes without saying. The only thing that an RPG publisher can hope to do is present fluffy options for their players. For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas. Seeing the artwork on the upcoming adventure makes me afraid that WotC will fail to provide the amount of fluff that I would like to see.
I hate to burst your bubble, but WotC plans on 2 main books, and 1 adventure, and that's it for Dark Sun in the game books. No re-do of "Thri-Kreen of Athas". You aren't going to get a hundred pages for each of the setting-specific races for Dark Sun, sorry.
Furthermore, do you know of any cultures at all in which every member agrees with everything that the culture considers to be a norm?
yeah, actually. That's kind of the definition of the word "norm."
Except that "norm" isn't "all" or "every", it means the general level or average in this case (definition #2 from your own link). Definitions 1, 3, and 4 don't really fit, after all. We're not talking about a standard/model, we're talking about a societal distinction, which would be #2 all the way.
See how we lose the opportunity for role-play? It's the same with depicting a thri-kreen riding a kank. He's as normal as a guy wearing shoes to work. And that's boring.
Umm... I think you confused yourself here. If you have your DS games set up where it isn't the norm for a TK to ride a kank, then the TK that is riding a kank is abnormal, and therefore stands out. After all, you have to compare apples to apples (TK's to other TK's) rather than apples to oranges (TK to a non-TK) with this, right?
Except that this thri-kreen is a faceless representative of the race in general...
You don't know that. You have no idea.
In other words, whatever WotC shows us is, by definition, the norm.
Not necessarily, no. Again, Drizzt. And there are numerous other pieces of artwork out there depicting, for example, very unusual race/class combinations.
Of course. That goes without saying.
Then why are you overreacting?
For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas.
Never heard of it. Probably don't care.
Note that I'm not talking about player's thri-kreen characeters. They can do whatever they want, subject to their DM's discretion.
NPCs aren't allowed to be weird and memorable?
yeah, actually. That's kind of the definition of the word "norm."
No, it isn't. You miunderstand the definition of the word "norm". To use an example use in that link, the current "norm" in the US is for middle-class families to have two children. It is not difficult at all to go out and find a family that defies this norm or who doesn't agree with this norm.
Excellent! :D And that's exactly what I'm talking about. That desire to wear dresses & those weird looks are called "role playing."
. . . So then you're upset because this artwork provides an interesting role playing opportunity? o_O
So, in conclusion...
I'm concerned that this piece of art possibly represents a lack of fluff in the future releases. Fluff is the only reason I have to buy the books. I hope that we are still early enough in the process to address this possible problem, & that WotC will release books that I want to buy.
After all, as others have pointed out, it's only a piece of artwork. I would think that WotC would have the means to replace it easily.
I hope that we are still early enough in the design process to have our opinions heard to help the game designers make changes for the better.
...
Just trying to address what I/we see as a problem while there is still time to make changes for the better.
We're two months and four days from release. The books are probably at the printer's already. (Last year Rich Baker told us that Dark Sun had gone from development to editing, too.)
"Better" is subjective. Then again, I'm someone who can watch an old episode of Transformers and then watch one of the new Michael Bay films, or include the new Star Trek in a marathon that includes the old movies. Because I can like something for what it is and what it tries to do, not what it's trying to replicate. I don't like All Star Batman, but not for some "that's not my Batman" reason; I dislike it on it's own independent (de)merits.
Why don't thri-kreen ride kanks?
Why don't men wear dresses to work? Dresses are easier to wear. More comfortable. Easier & less expensive to make (in terms of materials, etc).
So, logically speaking, men should wear dresses, too.
Yet, we don't. This is a deifining cultural characteristic.
...
Showing a thri-kreen riding a kank is bad because it damages a vital aspect of the thri-kreen culture & removes role-playing opportunities.
Furthermore, do you know of any cultures at all in which every member agrees with everything that the culture considers to be a norm?yeah, actually. That's kind of the definition of the word "norm."
Actually, from your very own link, norms are simply average or typical. It acknowledges, and by implication: expects, deviations.Imagine if wearing dresses was a non-issue. The conversation would go something like this:
A: I'm wearing SHOES!
B:.... so?
See how we lose the opportunity for role-play? It's the same with depicting a thri-kreen riding a kank. He's as normal as a guy wearing shoes to work. And that's boring.
A bug riding a bug in a desert is in no way comparable to the mundane of wearing shoes. It is awesome. I don't know any other setting where I can have thri-kreen riding kanks! (I don't know any other setting with thri-kreen or kanks, for that matter...)
I don't see anything in these two posts that I haven't already addressed in this thread.
Well, that's your choice then. Honestly I don't know how you could have addressed points made in response to something you had just previously stated...
So, in conclusion...
I'm concerned that this piece of art possibly represents a lack of fluff in the future releases. Fluff is the only reason I have to buy the books. I hope that we are still early enough in the process to address this possible problem, & that WotC will release books that I want to buy.
After all, as others have pointed out, it's only a piece of artwork. I would think that WotC would have the means to replace it easily.
Of course, it is very likely, as was mentioned, that the books are already at the printers, and pulling the image now would be a virtual impossibility. Not without extreme expense on the part of WotC.
I don't see anything in these two posts that I haven't already addressed in this thread.
So, in conclusion...
I'm concerned that this piece of art possibly represents a lack of fluff in the future releases. Fluff is the only reason I have to buy the books. I hope that we are still early enough in the process to address this possible problem, & that WotC will release books that I want to buy.
After all, as others have pointed out, it's only a piece of artwork. I would think that WotC would have the means to replace it easily.
Wouldn't you be more interested in WotC ADDING fluff, instead of replacing a piece of artwork that possibly represents a lack of fluff.
Maybe that piece of art possibly DOESNT represent a lack of fluff in the future releases. Maybe it possibly represents that in this particular release is a particular fluff about why this particular TK is ridding this particular kank. How about that?
I don't see anything in these two posts that I haven't already addressed in this thread.
You mean that you haven't already tried and failed to address in this thread.
I'm concerned that this piece of art possibly represents a lack of fluff in the future releases.
And this concern is totally unfounded and completely illogical.
A little late to the party, I'd say.
I'm fairly new to the forums, & I don't have time to read through every archived thread.
We're two months and four days from release. The books are probably at the printer's already. (Last year Rich Baker told us that Dark Sun had gone from development to editing, too.)
Sadly true
Because I can like something for what it is and what it tries to do, not what it's trying to replicate.
Fair point, but I'm not talking about what the new Dark Sun is. There's no way to know. I'm talking about what I hope it isn't.
I don't know any other setting where I can have thri-kreen riding kanks! (I don't know any other setting with thri-kreen or kanks, for that matter...)
Thri-kreen originated in the "generic" setting of 1E D&D, & rolled over into the Forgotten Realms setting of 2E. In 4E, I believe they're in the MM3, & are again part of the generic setting.
Honestly I don't know how you could have addressed points made in response to something you had just previously stated...
Because you're repeating yourself.
Wouldn't you be more interested in WotC ADDING fluff,
Of course. But, I'm not talking about what we don't know about. I'm talking about the implications of the choice to use this piece of artwork.
You mean that you haven't already tried and failed to address in this thread.
Hit me with your best shot. I'll gladly provide a link to the post where I already refuted the point.
And this concern is totally unfounded and completely illogical.
I disagree.
Let me put it to you this way.
We can agree that there are only two reasons to buy a sourcebook, right?
1. Crunchy bits, like new races & class, etc.
2. Fluff, like thri-kreen not riding kanks & halflings being little cannibals, etc.
D&D Insider Compendium & the Character Builder will provide the crunchy bits, without me having to spend extra money on the books. The thri-kreen racial stats are available on this very forum. Which leaves only the fluff.
Dark Sun is a very unique setting, which relies quite a bit on the presence of fluff.
With the depiction of a thri-kreen riding a kank, there are only three conclusions that you can draw:
1. the thri-kreen in the picture is a weak hunter & outcast from his tribe. His name is Tzzird Nedru'od who rejected his race's evil worhsip of Thlol & fought his way to the surface & freedom.
2. WotC forgot their own fluff so much, that they got ride of it entirely, or...
3. WotC changed the fluff so much as to not be recognizable as Dark Sun at all.
In other words, the only thing you can say from this picture is that there is either no fluff, or a limited set of fluff that pales in comparison to the 2E stuff.*
There goes the last reason to buy the books.
(* Honestly, take a look at the Thri-Kreen of Athas book. You might find it interesting.)
But, I'm not talking about what we don't know about.
That's exactly what you're doing. You don't know anything about this module or the story behind the cover's artwork, but you're talking about it like you do.
Hit me with your best shot. I'll gladly provide a link to the post where I already refuted the point.
No, you'll provide a link to the post where you already tried to refure the point but failed to do so:
1) You have no idea whether this Thri-Kreen is really supposed to be a nameless, faceless representative for its race. You tried to refute this before but failed.
2) WotC does not only every show us the norm, as proven by Drizzt as well as many pieces of artwork depicting unusual race/class combination, so there's no reason to expect that this Thri-Kreen means to represent the norm. You tried to refute this before but failed.
3) NPCs are allowed to be weird and memorable too. I don't remember you trying to refute this.
4) Just because something is considered to be a social or cultural norm doesn't mean that every member of that group agrees with it. You can't refute this because this is a scientific fact.
5) ". . . So then you're upset because this artwork provides an interesting role playing opportunity? o_O" was a totally new question.
3. WotC changed the fluff so much as to not be recognizable as Dark Sun at all.
Bull. Changing a minor bit of fluff does not make the entire setting unrecognizable as what it used to be. Also, you've forgotten many other possibilities, including the possibility that this is a new culture of Thri-Kreen beyond those previously explored and the possibility that these Thro-Kreen are being mind-controlled by < insert generic evil thing here > and that the adventure in question will be to free them.
In other words, the only thing you can say from this picture is that there is either no fluff, or a limited set of fluff that pales in comparison to the 2E stuff.
That is completely non sequitor. We could also say that this will be an expansion upon previous fluff by introducing something new or that it will reinforce previous fluff by drawing attention to just how odd this Thri-Kreen is supposed to be.
That's exactly what you're doing. You don't know anything about this module or the story behind the cover's artwork, but you're talking about it like you do.
What's there to know? It's a thri-kreen riding a kank. Generic, nameless thri-kreen don't ride kanks. This has been established.
1) You have no idea whether this Thri-Kreen is really supposed to be a nameless, faceless representative for its race. You tried to refute this before but failed.
2) WotC does not only every show us the norm, as proven by Drizzt as well as many pieces of artwork depicting unusual race/class combination, so there's no reason to expect that this Thri-Kreen means to represent the norm. You tried to refute this before but failed.
After buying TSR and then WotC's books for the past 19 years, you get a sense of what to expect. There are certain telltale indications. For example, if there was a character's name anywhere in the description of the book. All indications are that this thri-kreen is a nameless generic thri-kreen, & therefore is depicted as an average member of that race.
I'm curious. Does anyone know of any 4E adventure that depicts a named character on the cover?
Edit:
3) NPCs are allowed to be weird and memorable too. I don't remember you trying to refute this.
Because this particular piece of art so clearly depicts a nameless, generic member of the race that I felt no need to address an obviously incorrect statement.
4) Just because something is considered to be a social or cultural norm doesn't mean that every member of that group agrees with it. You can't refute this because this is a scientific fact.
I love your choice of words here. It's almost as if you think I disagree with you.
The point of the "norm" discussion was that you can't react against something unless you know it to be abnormal. WotC determines what is normal & abnormal through the fluff it presents. It is presenting a thri-kreen riding a kank. Therefore, according to WotC, riding is normal for thri-kreen.
This is a bad thing, because Dark Sun is all about the abnormal. It's boring to be normal. By allowing them to ride, WotC has made thri-kreen normal, & therefore boring.
Bull. Changing a minor bit of fluff does not make the entire setting unrecognizable as what it used to be. Also, you've forgotten many other possibilities, including the possibility that this is a new culture of Thri-Kreen beyond those previously explored
This statement is so blatantly self-contradictory, I really don't feel the need to refute it.
You seem to want a response, so let's see if this makes any sense to you:
Your suggestion would change the fundamental nature of the thri-kreen so much that they would no longer be Athasian thri-kreen. They could fit into Eberron or Forgotten Realms sure, & that's no a bad thing. But, they certainly have no bearing on Dark Sun. Since this normal artwork is for the abnormal Dark Sun, this artwork is bad.
Of course, maybe I've been spoiled. Brom's artwork is some of the best that's out there.
That is completely non sequitor. We could also say that this will be an expansion upon previous fluff by introducing something new or that it will reinforce previous fluff by drawing attention to just how odd this Thri-Kreen is supposed to be.
Actually, we can't say anything like that all, because you're basing your conjecture on... well, nothing. Come August, we'll be able to see who's right, of course. But, as of this moment right now, you don't have a leg to stand on. In other words, your entire argument is an fallacy (argument from ignorance). Enjoy!
greyorm...
read this:
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/15607610...
or this:
www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url...
You're new so you're forgiven.
Hi, I'm Raven. I've been playing or otherwise involved with Dark Sun since the first boxed set came out. I've created conversions for a number of other systems (SAGA, Donjon, Sorcerer) -- which even recieved some internal attention at WotC back in the day -- and written reams of fan material expanding the world or adding detail and realism to existing elements, as well as having written no small amount of fiction based on or even directly for the setting. I own and have read every official product ever published. I was extremely active on the old mailing list before WotC had boards, have been very active on the boards for the last decade, and am a contributing member of Athas.org with a hand in a number of their releases.
So telling me what to read? Thanks for the advice, but I've read it all. Many multiple times.
What's there to know? Generic, nameless thri-kreen don't ride kanks.
What's to know is whether this Thri-Kreen is really generic and nameless. You don't know that.
All indications are that this thri-kreen is a nameless generic thri-kreen, & therefore is depicted as an average member of that race.
No, there are no indications one way or the others.
I'm curious. Does anyone know of any 4E adventure that depicts a named character on the cover?
So if it hasn't already happened then it can't happen?
Of course, this is all still ignoring many totally logical possibilities where Thri-Kreen could still ride Kanks while still being nameless and faceless, such as if they were mind-controlled thrall of < insert generic evil thing here >. Then they would still be noticeably weird and counter to the established norm while not needing to have any personal background.
It is presenting a thri-kreen riding a kank. Therefore, according to WotC, riding is normal for thri-kreen.
Where do you come up with this insane logic that you're using? This image does not in any way suggest that this is the norm. This image could very well be on the cover because it's something weird and unique that happens in this module.
This is a bad thing, because Dark Sun is all about the abnormal. It's boring to be normal. By allowing them to ride, WotC has made thri-kreen normal, & therefore boring.
This is a paradox. If Dark Sun is supposed to be abnormal within the context of D&D settings, then thing that are normal in the context of other D&D settings are are abnormal within the context of Dark Sun.
This statement is so blatantly self-contradictory, I really don't feel the need to refute it.
There's nothing self-contradictory about it, and you really do need to refute it.
Your suggestion would change the fundamental nature of the thri-kreen so much that they would no longer be Athasian thri-kreen.
Which suggestion would that be? Because all of the suggestions I've been making are specifically ones that would make this image logical despite not fitting in with the supposed norm for Thri-Kreen behavior. This has nothing to do with other settings.
Actually, we can't say anything like that all, because you're basing your conjecture on... well, nothing. Come August, we'll be able to see who's right, of course. But, as of this moment right now, you don't have a leg to stand on. In other words, your entire argument is an fallacy (argument from ignorance). Enjoy!
/facepalm
/facepalm
/headdesk
Are you serious? I really think that I'm being trolled now. Maybe you're not getting this, but you're the one here basing your conjecture on absolutely nothing and making arguments from ignorance. I'm the one showing you that. I'm not passing judgement on the artwork or the module because I don't know a damn thing about it. You're the one passing judgement on the artwork and the module without knowing a damn thing about it. I'm coming up with possibilities for what could be up with this artwork or module to show how it could theoretically be justified even under your own assumtions, possibilities that you aren't thinking of before blindly passing judgement with no basis whatsoever.
And it doesn't matter what happens in August. Either way, you're wrong. Even if it does turn out that they've changed stereotypical Thri-Kreen culture such that riding Kanks is now perfectly acceptible, you're still wrong for assuming so and complaining about it this soon without any evidence at all to back it up. You have no way of knowing, so you have no leg to stand on.
So if it hasn't already happened then it can't happen?
Your statement is pretty much the exact definition of an argument from ignorance, as is quite a lot of everything else you just posted.
If Dark Sun is supposed to be abnormal within the context of D&D settings, then thing that are normal in the context of other D&D settings are are abnormal within the context of Dark Sun.
I'd like to introduce you to a new fallacy: equivocation.
I would illustrate why your statement supports my conclusion, but I see you're getting upset.
Either way, you're wrong.
If you can't have a decent conversation, then I suggest you take some time off & cool down.
I don't see anything in these two posts that I haven't already addressed in this thread.
So, in conclusion...
I'm concerned that this piece of art possibly represents a lack of fluff in the future releases. Fluff is the only reason I have to buy the books. I hope that we are still early enough in the process to address this possible problem, & that WotC will release books that I want to buy.
After all, as others have pointed out, it's only a piece of artwork. I would think that WotC would have the means to replace it easily.
Different fluff than you were expecting <> lack of fluff.
I played DS bck in the old days too and Thri-Kreen not riding mounts is such a minor detail that I forgot about it until I read this thread. It doesn't strike me as all that big a deal or all that defining a characteristic of the world so they can change it or not, it makes no difference to me. Yeah its a change from the original but its not as if they changed Athas into an watery planet with lots of metal where arcane magic makes plants grow spontaneously or something.
It's all a matter of degree. In the scheme of things, mounted thri-kreen is a trifle.
This is a bad thing, because Dark Sun is all about the abnormal. It's boring to be normal. By allowing them to ride, WotC has made thri-kreen normal, & therefore boring.
...
Your suggestion would change the fundamental nature of the thri-kreen so much that they would no longer be Athasian thri-kreen.
You are literally citing a couple of sentences in one paragraph of a 127 pg book as a major social and cultural total rewrite of the kreen race. A book, mind you, that HAS kreen using beast of burdens, jalath'gak, to haul heavy loads, aid in moving camps around, and...get this...depicted in actual art IN that book as hauling carts that carry the young kreen around. Yes, that's right, in that very book we have an image of actual kreen riding around in an insect-drawn vehicle.
Outdone by Tectuktitlay
Very little of 4E Dark Sun has been established; how 4E thri-kreen regard kanks has certainly not been established.
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide features a drow working with a dwarf, even though that's not normal. And what if the thri-kreen is... one of the titular marauders!
Not only are a lot of adventure titles references to the major villains or villain group (actually, nearly all of them now that I go through the product catalogue) but yes, they feature these characters on the cover. Primes example being Prince of Undeath featuring Orcus on the cover, and Kingdom of the Ghouls featuring the ghoulish lord.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide has a character wielding a laser sword (okay, a sword made of magical energy, but it looks the same) riding some kind of black winged beast. Even for the Realms that ain't a normal sight. Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn features some kind of dragonborn spellcaster; admittedly, I don't know if the book presents racial options that make dragonborn more viable as something other than a conlock (much in the same way that you don't know the contents of Marauders of the Dune Sea) but my impression of dragonborn based on the PH1 fluff is not mage-like. The character on the cover of Divine Power seems to be wielding a made-up holy symbol. It's a good thing you don't want me to open the books, too.
(1) The thri-kreen are still weird as all get-out. (2) This is so cool! And (3) Dark Sun is about a world that is hard to survive (as "living" would be too generous a word to apply). As long as it's a blighted wasteland where the inhabitants make surly New Yorkers look like girl scouts, it's Dark Sun. (This is, of course, and oversimplification. Dark Sun is deeper than that.)
This is what creates the perception of a troll. It's like saying if someone's hair was a different color they'd no longer be the same character. Their riding ability and even their cultural perspectives on riding are superficial, incidental details. They are still different from humanoids! The role the thri-kreen play in the world of Athas is a part of the soul of Dark Sun. Whether or not they can ride a mount is just a part of the skin of old editions. Dark Sun's beauty is not just skin deep.
What's there to know? It's a thri-kreen riding a kank. Generic, nameless thri-kreen don't ride kanks. This has been established.
Very little of 4E Dark Sun has been established; how 4E thri-kreen regard kanks has certainly not been established.
After buying TSR and then WotC's books for the past 19 years, you get a sense of what to expect. There are certain telltale indications. For example, if there was a character's name anywhere in the description of the book. All indications are that this thri-kreen is a nameless generic thri-kreen, & therefore is depicted as an average member of that race.
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide features a drow working with a dwarf, even though that's not normal. And what if the thri-kreen is... one of the titular marauders!
I'm curious. Does anyone know of any 4E adventure that depicts a named character on the cover?
Not only are a lot of adventure titles references to the major villains or villain group (actually, nearly all of them now that I go through the product catalogue) but yes, they feature these characters on the cover. Primes example being Prince of Undeath featuring Orcus on the cover, and Kingdom of the Ghouls featuring the ghoulish lord.
The point of the "norm" discussion was that you can't react against something unless you know it to be abnormal. WotC determines what is normal & abnormal through the fluff it presents. It is presenting a thri-kreen riding a kank. Therefore, according to WotC, riding is normal for thri-kreen.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide has a character wielding a laser sword (okay, a sword made of magical energy, but it looks the same) riding some kind of black winged beast. Even for the Realms that ain't a normal sight. Player's Handbook Races: Dragonborn features some kind of dragonborn spellcaster; admittedly, I don't know if the book presents racial options that make dragonborn more viable as something other than a conlock (much in the same way that you don't know the contents of Marauders of the Dune Sea) but my impression of dragonborn based on the PH1 fluff is not mage-like. The character on the cover of Divine Power seems to be wielding a made-up holy symbol. It's a good thing you don't want me to open the books, too.
This is a bad thing, because Dark Sun is all about the abnormal. It's boring to be normal. By allowing them to ride, WotC has made thri-kreen normal, & therefore boring.
(1) The thri-kreen are still weird as all get-out. (2) This is so cool! And (3) Dark Sun is about a world that is hard to survive (as "living" would be too generous a word to apply). As long as it's a blighted wasteland where the inhabitants make surly New Yorkers look like girl scouts, it's Dark Sun. (This is, of course, and oversimplification. Dark Sun is deeper than that.)
Your suggestion would change the fundamental nature of the thri-kreen so much that they would no longer be Athasian thri-kreen. They could fit into Eberron or Forgotten Realms sure, & that's no a bad thing. But, they certainly have no bearing on Dark Sun. Since this normal artwork is for the abnormal Dark Sun, this artwork is bad.
This is what creates the perception of a troll. It's like saying if someone's hair was a different color they'd no longer be the same character. Their riding ability and even their cultural perspectives on riding are superficial, incidental details. They are still different from humanoids! The role the thri-kreen play in the world of Athas is a part of the soul of Dark Sun. Whether or not they can ride a mount is just a part of the skin of old editions. Dark Sun's beauty is not just skin deep.
After buying TSR and then WotC's books for the past 19 years, you get a sense of what to expect. There are certain telltale indications. For example, if there was a character's name anywhere in the description of the book. All indications are that this thri-kreen is a nameless generic thri-kreen, & therefore is depicted as an average member of that race.
I'm curious. Does anyone know of any 4E adventure that depicts a named character on the cover?
I dunno, let's start from the beginning, eh?
H1 - Keep on the Shadowfell. Who is on the cover? Hmm, why, that's Karalel, cleric of Orcus, the main antagonist of the adventure. The NPC who is behind it all, and a catalyst to further adventure after this one is over.
H2 - Thunderspire Labyrinth. Who is on the cover? Looks to me like Maldrick Scarmaker, gnoll warlock. He is one of the two major NPCs in the adventure, and is even depicted in one of the culminating encounter rooms in the Inner Sanctum of the Well of Demons, who is attempting to steal power away from Baphomet give it to Yeenoghu.
H3 - Pyramid of Shadows. Ok, who is on the cover this time? Well, well, lookie who we have here. It's Karavakos, the tiefling wizard who has been split into splinters, the prisoner the Pyramid of Shadows is imprisoning, and, again, the main antagonist of the entire adventure. THE main NPC.
Do I need to go on? Because I can, and it continues on like this, with covers virtually always depicting major NPCs. It even culminates in E2 with Doresain the Ghoul King, and E3 with Orcus, the big bad capstone of the entire initial 9 modules.
Major named NPCs on the covers of the modules are the norm, not the outlier.
So, no, really, you are simply wrong on that point in a major way.
Besides that incredibly incorrect assertion and observation on your part, you are indeed blowing this out of proportion...tremendously. Other posters are absolutely correct in assertintg that you are arguing from logically fallacious grounds. You are. Blatantly. I won't bother getting in to that, others have done so adequately.
Also, in Thri-Kreen of Athas, the very supplement you cite, the main reason addressed is the shape of the kreen body. As I already stated, the entire argument that kreen don't ride because it would be like riding your food is silly in the extreme. We humans DO, in MANY cultures, eat the very animals we ride. This is hardly an uncommon phenomenon. It is also mentioned in passing, as more of an aside. In 2E, yes, the kreen physiology and faster movement would indeed have made it silly for them to ride most of the time (except when, you know, flying on a mount of course). It was also highly unrealistic, as any intelligent creature will use beasts of burdens for many reasons, including riding.
You are literally citing a couple of sentences in one paragraph of a 127 pg book as a major social and cultural rewrite of the kreen race. A book, mind you, that HAS kreen using beasts of burden, jalath'gak, to haul heavy loads, aid in moving camps around, and...get this...depicted in actual art IN that book as hauling carts that carry the young kreen around. Yes, that's right, in that very book we have an image of actual kreen riding around in an insect-drawn vehicle.
For those who aren't able to see it, here is the ENTIRE passage about kreen and mounts...all of it...in its entirety...in the Thri-Kreen of Athas supplement being cited as indicative of an egegious rewriting of a major cultural and social aspect of kreen:
"Thri-kreen view nearly any unintelligent creature as potential prey. This is one reason thri-kreen do not ride ofther animals. Besides the thri-kreen's poor construction for riding and a natural speed that makes is silly for a thri-kreen to ride any creature, a thri-kreen riding a mount is considered something like a human child playing with food."
That's it, the whole paragraph, which is paragraph three on pg 15 of a 127-pg supplement. A passage that, itself, completely ignores the fact that many cultures have historically eaten the animals used as mounts. Astonishing, really. Talk about a tempest in a teapot.
All that on the assumption that the kreen depicted isn't a named NPC (who can easily be atypical), when I clearly demonstrate above, easily, trivially so, that if such were the case, that would be the exception and not the rule. Then, you accuse others of having faulty assumptions? Seriously? *sigh*
For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas.
Never heard of it. Probably don't care.
Good example of why you will never feel the setting. You will play a al-quadim with strange insect roaming around. You are not interested in what define really the setting. All the fluff that have been created that DEFINE athas.
For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas.
Never heard of it. Probably don't care.
Good example of why you will never feel the setting. You will play a al-quadim with strange insect roaming around. You are not interested in what define really the setting. All the fluff that have been created that DEFINE athas.
That seems completely unnecessary and rude a response. All the fluff that has been created HELP define Athas...except for the (multitude) of times the fluff...disagrees with itself.
Just because CC hasn't and likely never will read Thri-Kreen of Athas doesn't mean she won't be privvy to much of the fluff that book brought about. We don't KNOW how much the Campaign Guide will have in terms of blurbs about regions beyond the Tyr Region. Yes, we know the latter is going to be the vast majority of the focus. However, as with Abeir in the FRCG, or with Sarlona, Arganossen (sp?), Xendrik, et al, in the ECG, that doesn't mean there won't be a blurb telling us that there is a massive Kreen Empire just beyond the Jagged Cliffs to the west, a region of obsidian wastes to the south known as the Dead Lands, an ancient, Orwellian "utopian" city controlled by three powerful, immortal, utterly insane psions to the north situated on the last (and very small) sea known on Athas known as Saragar, etc, etc, etc.
Moreover, we don't know how much of the fluff presented in the thri-kreen section itself will be directly influenced by the supplement in question.
What we do know, however, is what has been presented thus far. And tomorrow, many will get to see more during Free RPG Day. You know what? IMHO WotC has gotten the overall feel and much of the fluff of Athas dead-on. Is every detail absolutely precisely the same? Nope. As I mentioned already, the fluff IN THE 2E PRODUCTS THEMSELVES aren't precisely the same, and are internally inconsistent. So, which such fluff is "correct"? Which is the "most canon"? It's a fantasy world, so in my opinion NONE OF IT is the "best" or "most accurate" or "correct". All of it is there to present ideas, and give DMs and players alike inspiration to include in their own campaigns. All that really matters is that the major components mesh up, and the feel is mantained. The 4E products presented thus far do exactly that. They keep the major points the same, and the feel of the world the same. That counts as a definite win in my book.
Of course, we'll know for sure once the actual Dark Sun Campaign Guide, Dark Sun Creature Catalog and Marauders of the Dune Sea come out. So far so good, however.
You most assuredly can NOT say, howevever, that CC "will never feel the setting". That is preposterous, presumptuous, and really quite arrogant and elitist a statement. If CC buys the Campaign Guide, and its fluff and feel fits as well as what has been presented thus far, she most assuredly CAN "feel the setting".
For example, the Thri-kreen of Athas.
Never heard of it. Probably don't care.
Good example of why you will never feel the setting. You will play a al-quadim with strange insect roaming around. You are not interested in what define really the setting. All the fluff that have been created that DEFINE athas.
The fluff taken as a whole defines the setting, yeah. But that doesn't mean every tiny minute detail previously created must be considered sancrosanct and never, ever altered in any way. Large things (like the existance of the Sorcierer Kings) should be left alone, sure, but small things (like whether or not Thri-Kreen ride mounts) are no big deal. Dark Sun is still Dark Sun whether or not Thri-Kreen ride kanks.
Considering that the poster pointed us to Thri-kreen of Athas, this may be a very clever troll intended to see who would just take his word for his outlandish claim, and who would actually read the source material.
Furthermore, a setting's feel should be captured in every supplement. I certainly don't have them all, and it's absurd to think that I need them all or else I'm not going to really "get" the setting. Feelings are a source of creativity and inspiration, which doesn't need to be hindered by "facts."
And now Tec ninja's with a better response than me, so I'll take out anything that's already been said:
Considering that the poster pointed us to Thri-kreen of Athas, this may be a very clever troll intended to see who would just take his word for his outlandish claim, and who would actually read the source material.
Furthermore, a setting's feel should be captured in every supplement. I certainly don't have them all, and it's absurd to think that I need them all or else I'm not going to really "get" the setting. Feelings are a source of creativity and inspiration, which doesn't need to be hindered by "facts."
Take it from someone who has every supplement, pretty much everything ever written for Dark Sun (including things like the Spelljammer tie in and the Ravenloft set describing Kalidnay), in game supplement and novel form, you definitely don't need everything. When you get everything you end up spending far too much time dealing with such overwhelming inconsistencies throughout the setting, where one book says the sky is blue, the next says it is green (as an example), and so forth. Everyone who has a good number of Dark Sun books starts making personal decisions on what is good and what isn't, eventually leading to multiple variations on Dark Sun (which often ended up being points of contention on these very forums in the past). Heck, there are two, completely different, and yet completely official D&D 3.5E versions of Dark Sun rules, and neither were written by Wizards. Dark Sun's materials can (and often does) leave many people confused.
I like TKoA as a supplement, and have often pointed to it for a good number of things (like my Yuuzhon-Vong version of the Rhulisti returning I did, as well as my theory as to where the Life-Benders ended up), but in the end, even that book has a good number of contradictions in it. I honestly don't think there is one book, other than the Wanderer's Journal (and not the Wanderer's Chronicle from DS2) that is not contradictory. So to nit-pick about a relatively insignificant contradiction about Kreen riding Kanks? Sheesh... splitting hairs, me'thinks.
Once DS4 comes rolling out, I will most likely use the material in it as my core set for how DS is, and then use the rest of the materials I have as additional flavoring that I can take or leave to suit my needs. I have such a vast collection of materials for DS, I could potentially have a different version of Athas for each campaign I ever run in DS, and never run out of variations -- and always keep my players on their toes.
So I'll just add: I don't particularly care about TKA myself (or even EoA), does that mean I will never truly feel the setting or care about what defines the setting?
Me? Seriously?
Come on, man.
Good example of why you will never feel the setting. You will play a al-quadim with strange insect roaming around. You are not interested in what define really the setting. All the fluff that have been created that DEFINE athas.
To quote Professor Frink: "No, you can't play with it, you won't enjoy it on as many levels as I do."
In all honesty, who can actually really pinpoint what defines a setting? I'm curious. How many tiny fluff modifications does it take to tip the scale? How many cosmetic alterations, how many botched images that don't mesh with already-contradictory fluff?
How many squeamish DMs have to peruse said images months before they even read the books and say they're afraid to modify fluff? To, you know, do their job as a DM.
While we're quibbling, I'm rather curious to see if we've measured out all the minor details that will tip the scale. At what point is Athas not Athas anymore?
There is currently one bit of fluff that is being debated. A singular image.
People need to stop going off on slippery-slope arguments, claiming that if one thing is just not perfectly so, everything else will by default follow in its wake. Stop predicting doomsday. Wait until you see more material before making snap judgements.
If this is a troll, he's a clever troll indeed. And I can't resist biting, sorry to say.
While we're quibbling, I'm rather curious to see if we've measured out all the minor details that will tip the scale. At what point is Athas not Athas anymore?
I can imagine a bizarro Athas where maybe the sun is more of a dim silver, and it's really, really cold during the day (and [more] deadly at night). More of a frozen ground than snow or anything (ie "not Hoth"). It's a fun train of thought, actually...
There is currently one bit of fluff that is being debated.
Was, I hope.
But, then people started asking questions, & (foolish me) I thought they wanted answers.
I forgot this was the internet & what happens when you post on internet forums. Sadly, this time, there was no porn.
Then, the obviously fallacious arguments started getting to me, & I just had to show CC how he was wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed that his argument boiled down to the exact definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam, & I'm even more disappointed to see other people using the same fallacy to support their own arguments.
*shrug* It doesn't matter.
Like I said before, the picture is fine. But, since you ask, it's just not the game I want to play. I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials. As much as I would have liked to have given the money to WotC, you saved me about $100.
That's what I was looking forward to.
We can agree that there are only two reasons to buy a sourcebook, right?
1. Crunchy bits, like new races & class, etc.
2. Fluff, like thri-kreen not riding kanks & halflings being little cannibals, etc.
D&D Insider Compendium & the Character Builder will provide the crunchy bits, without me having to spend extra money on the books. The thri-kreen racial stats are available on this very forum. Which leaves only the fluff.
Dark Sun is a very unique setting, which relies quite a bit on the presence of fluff.
As long time Dark Sun fan, from day one of it's release to eagerly awaiting Dark Sun 4E, I have to say that the basis for this thread is completely ridiculous.
I enjoyed the Thri Kreen of Athas book, Kreen were my favorite PC race. I did remember the bit about Kreen not riding mounts when I saw the image a while back. You know what? It didn't bother me in the least. No matter what fluff they change, I am confident in my ability to run a Dark Sun Campaign which will be true to the spirit of Dark Sun.
Knowing what we already know about what has been changed, I'm surprised that THIS is a major issue for you, or that you were even considering buying the book before you saw the image in question.
Significant fluff changing has already happened, and we are privy to it. Here are examples of the things that will drive you screaming from the setting and prompt you rage quit and burn everything WotC has ever produced that you can get your hands on:
1) Goliaths are being refluffed into Half Giants.
2) Dragonborn are being refluffed into Dray.
3) Thri Kreen don't have the bulbous abdomen any more.
4) Thri Kreen and Half Giants are not large size creatures any more.
5) Eladrin and Tieflings are standard races in the setting. If the chapter on races does not describe the role each and every player race plays in Athas, there will probably be a sidebar describing ways to make races like Gnomes, Minotaurs, Half Orcs, Deva and Warforged fit into your Dark Sun campaign.
6) The scale of the maps have been increased. This means that the distances between cities and settlements will be greater. Athas has become a larger world.
7) There is no Templar class. Instead, there will be a Templar theme, and there will be a Sorcerer King Pact available to Warlocks. There will be no Gladiator Class, but there will be a Gladiator theme. There will be no Elemental Priest Class, but there will be an Elemental Priest theme.
8) "Bard" will probably not be a euphemism for Assassin any more.
9) Arcane Defilement will be an option for all characters possessing an Arcane Power, not just Wizards.
You will also be dissatisfied with the amount of fluff the Thri Kreen are going to receive, especially if you are expecting something as in depth as Thri Kreen of Athas. The Thri Kreen will get precisely as much fluff in their write up as every other race that has been introduced into 4E. Just over a page and a half. At least until WotC produces a Dark Sun Races: Thri Kreen book, at which time they will receive another 12-14 pages of fluff.
These changes do not denote the things you claim they do:
With the depiction of a thri-kreen riding a kank, there are only three conclusions that you can draw:
1. the thri-kreen in the picture is a weak hunter & outcast from his tribe. His name is Tzzird Nedru'od who rejected his race's evil worhsip of Thlol & fought his way to the surface & freedom.
2. WotC forgot their own fluff so much, that they got ride of it entirely, or...
3. WotC changed the fluff so much as to not be recognizable as Dark Sun at all.
As has been amply demonstrated, the social restriction regarding Thri Kreen and mounts takes up all of half of a short paragraph in a book that contradicts itself on this point. It is possible that they forgot the fluff, as it is hardly integral to the setting. It is also possible that they remembered the fluff, and decided that since the Thri Kreen were no longer physically challenged when it comes to riding mounts, that they decided to drop it, as it is hardly integral to the setting.
I fully expect one third of the book to be crunchy stuff, with the other two thirds being devoted to the fluff of the setting. With so much information to incorporate into the remaining page count, whether or not Thri Kreen ride mounts is an insignificant detail, hardly integral to the setting, and not worth the half paragraph it received in a book devoted to Thri Kreen.
In other words, the only thing you can say from this picture is that there is either no fluff, or a limited set of fluff that pales in comparison to the 2E stuff.*
There goes the last reason to buy the books.
Or that the fluff has changed. There is plenty of precedent for it. The nice thing about fluff is that it is easy to change if you don't like it. If you don't want the average Kreen to ride mounts, then don't have them do it. When Dark Sun first came out, one of my players worked in our FLGS (he was the son of the owner, in fact), and two of the other players were his best friends. They had access to any and all of the materials that I did. You can be sure that I changed lots of fluff in order to limit their use of out of game knowledge in game.
And yes, the fluff will be extremely limited in comparison to 2E. Why? Because they are devoting far fewer pages to it. 2E had 2 Boxed Sets (and a revised and expanded core box set), 1 hardcover book, 16 softcover supplements, 2 monstrous compendiums (for those Monster Binders thery were experimenting with in AD&D 2E) and 10 adventures, . So, doing the math, is it remotely reasonable to expect that one hardcover, one adventure and one bestiary will be able to incorporate more than a fraction of the fluff that existed in 2E?
You are sacrificing your ability to enjoy a 4E version of Dark Sun on the altar of your unreasoanble expectations. Hope that works out for ya! ;)
Like I said before, the picture is fine. But, since you ask, it's just not the game I want to play. I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials. As much as I would have liked to have given the money to WotC, you saved me about $100.
You want 1:1 reprint of Thri-kreen of Athas. You want the same amount of fluff it was there and exactly the same fluff that was there. I can assure you that this is NOT going to happen for two reasons.
1) Books are no longer predominantly fluff. For good or for worse - that is the reality. 4E is aiming to provide solid and balanced mechanical base with enough fluff to start peoples imagination and keep it going. You can reflavor minor fluff details the way you like.
2) Reprinting the same book under a different cover 10 years latter is stupid. Having the old book and insisting that it should be reprinted is even more so. You have the Thri-kreen of Athas, use what you think is good there and combine it with whatever you think is good in the new book. Or don't even buy the new book since you so obviously want ONLY the old one and nothing else. If you want so much to give WoTC 100$, then buy the new book, burn it, make a copy of your old Thri-kreen of Athas and like a happy life, since you would have achieve what you crave so much.
I believe you have nothing more meaningful to say, so please save us your reply.
Just for the record: I don't like elves ridding kanks much more than tk doing it. They have much more solid cultural reason that the tk: "well I had a huge butt that stopped me doing it before and I also might eat it eventually". If in the book there is a picture and five lines of text about elves ridding kanks - so be it. I won't come crying on the forums. I am also pretty sure that we wont get a DS book that goes on and on 300 pages for how elves ride kanks.
Believe it or not, my original post was a tongue-in-cheek bit of ironic silliness.
But, then people started asking questions, & (foolish me) I thought they wanted answers.
I forgot this was the internet & what happens when you post on internet forums. Sadly, this time, there was no porn.
Then, the obviously fallacious arguments started getting to me, & I just had to show CC how he was wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed that his argument boiled down to the exact definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam, & I'm even more disappointed to see other people using the same fallacy to support their own arguments.
*shrug* It doesn't matter.
Like I said before, the picture is fine. But, since you ask, it's just not the game I want to play. I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials. As much as I would have liked to have given the money to WotC, you saved me about $100.
To quoth Wikipedia, Master Of All Knowledge: "The argument from ignorance,[1] also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance"[1][2]), or negative evidence,[1] is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
Now, going by that basic summation, the fallacy involves using a lack of evidence to imply something other than a lack of evidence. Now, if CC had been making this arguement, that would be quiet the fallacy indeed.
Except no where did she make the arguement. Ever. What she was saying, tirelessly, over and over again, was that there wasn't enough evidencen to make any conclusion whatsover. When she discussed kank-riding being an aberration, or a new norm, or mind control, she was positing several possible alternate explination (several of which are mutually exclusive, mind you) and at no point claimed that any one was an absolute truth. In other words, she never tried to prove anything, other than nothing could be proven at this juncture. Which is radically different from what you accuse her of saying.
At this point your just using latin you copied from Wikipedia to make one big Straw Man.
Furthermore, this post is nothing but a simpering backhand to try and make yourself look better. At no point in the arguement (at least, before you started losing and everyone knew it) did you imply that your behavior was a joke. Your passive agressive attitude and dishonesty are not appreciated. Nor is your immaturity.
1- Peoples keep pointing out particular books, supplements or single example to do their argumentation, while it's obviously on a bigger scale.
2- I dont mind seeing a bit of changes, but not things what broke the setting I've been playing for years now.
3- I decided to give 4E a chance to be tryed.
4- I know it's futile, but I fight nonetheless for things that SHOULD matter. Peoples keep telling that if there is a part that you do not like, dont use it. BUT EACH DAMN product they will produce WILL have thigns that ARENT darksun in it. And if I want to buy, let's say, an adventure, I will HAVE to modify it to remove all the WRONG things that are inside. (by example the thiefling with demonic blood... there is NO DEMON in the DS setting, and yet again see the peoples yapping about this thing I point out instead of seeing it as an example for something bigger).
5- Someone said it's important to feel a good part of the supplement that have been created. OF COURSE I HAVENT READ all the DS books cover to cover, thought I have skimmed inside enough to get the FEEL of it.
6- Again, I am not against changes, but not if it's to loose the essence of darksun.
Thanks.
6- Again, I am not against changes, but not if it's to loose the essence of darksun.
I would have understood your complaint, if they were turning the Sorceror Kings into treeloving hippies, but this is totally blown out of proportion.
6- Again, I am not against changes, but not if it's to loose (sic*) the essence of darksun.
The essence of Darksun was Thri-kreen not riding kanks.
An impressive setting indeed.
*(IT IS SPELT LOSE. LOOSE MEANS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE MAKING THIS MISTAKE AND THEY SHOULD ALL BE )
What's there to know? It's a thri-kreen riding a kank. Generic, nameless thri-kreen don't ride kanks. This has been established.
20.
Years.
Ago.
Seriously, 4e Tri Kreen will probably ride kanks, prefer mul meat over elven, be exceptional arcane casters and so on. The fallacy of your argument is that you're assuming that Dark Sun was perfect like it was, and any change is bad change.
So, it's very simple:
- if DS was perfect like it was, keep playing Old Dark Sun.
- if DS was perfect like it was, but you wanna play it in 4e, adapt it - it's one week of work, really.
- if DS wasn't perfect like it was, there's room for change, and you should wait till August to make a judgement.
There's a lot of stuff in DS I wanna see changed. I want to see creatures more powerful than Dragon Kings, I want to see an unitarian take on Rajaat, I want to have better dwarf fluff, I want to see dray finally used for something, I want... a lot of stuff. I want them to add stuff but also to change stuff, and I'm not being negative over any possible introduced change just because I loved Old DS, because Old DS is still there. Familiar but NEW. If what you want is Old DS, you don't need a new edition.
This is FR all over again.
*(IT IS SPELT LOSE. LOOSE MEANS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE MAKING THIS MISTAKE AND THEY SHOULD ALL BE )
Lets leave the grammar lesson aside unless you are having difficulty comprehending something said. English is not his first language. As it is, he speaks better than most English speakers on here.
And now, back to "The Dark Sun sky is falling!!" thread.
And now, back to "The Dark Sun sky is falling!!" thread.
Its the year of the Messenger again? Those pesky space halflings... :D
Lighten up people!
1- Peoples keep pointing out particular books, supplements or single example to do their argumentation, while it's obviously on a bigger scale.
We get two tiny examples of why "thri-kreen riding kanks is not how it was" - one very flimsy social example that is contradicted in the same book it's presented in, and one example that was justified purely for mechanical reasons; and a smattering of counter-examples, still from the "old" Dark Sun. The reason each of us focuses on a single example is because we don't need to repeat what others have said; it's collective. (Although I think I've picked up arguments that others were using, and others have expanded upon my arguments, just not all at once.) We've also been tackling the more general topics that are raised, but with less emphasis as it's off-topic.
2- I dont mind seeing a bit of changes, but not things what broke the setting I've been playing for years now.
Except that if you look at it one way, nothing changed here to begin with. There is no change in this example. And even if there was, how is this an important change compared to the other changes we've seen?
3- I decided to give 4E a chance to be tryed.
Everything, within reason and ability, deserves a chance. Unless you're going to go into it with any sort of preconceptions, then you're wasting your time.
4- I know it's futile, but I fight nonetheless for things that SHOULD matter. Peoples keep telling that if there is a part that you do not like, dont use it. BUT EACH DAMN product they will produce WILL have thigns that ARENT darksun in it. And if I want to buy, let's say, an adventure, I will HAVE to modify it to remove all the WRONG things that are inside. (by example the thiefling with demonic blood... there is NO DEMON in the DS setting, and yet again see the peoples yapping about this thing I point out instead of seeing it as an example for something bigger).
Um... there were demons in Dark Sun - at least, in the Dark Sun source books I've got. I wouldn't be surprised if a different source book says "no demons," but this leaves us with a question: which book is right? As long as the use of demons does not make them an influential power on Athas that can compare to the sorcerer-kings (who are among the few entities that would probably even know about them) then it's nothing to worry about.
5- Someone said it's important to feel a good part of the supplement that have been created. OF COURSE I HAVENT READ all the DS books cover to cover, thought I have skimmed inside enough to get the FEEL of it.
Even if you only have one book or all of them, the feel is supposed to be the same, and that's what matters. As has been said, the "facts" of the books aren't consistent, likely because they were being developed independently and simultaneously. The same feeling that was the source for those books lead to contradicting "facts," but both ways are the Dark Sun way.
6- Again, I am not against changes, but not if it's to loose the essence of darksun.
"What is Dark Sun" will be different for everyone, but that can be explored in a more relevant topic. This one is about a particular non-change.
I'd also like to say that my verbosity in no way reflects the degree to which I "care." I'm still here because I think this is a fun an interesting topic. I don't /facepalm or /headdesk, because if one is really at that point then they should go outside.
Believe it or not, my original post was a tongue-in-cheek bit of ironic silliness.
But, then people started asking questions, & (foolish me) I thought they wanted answers.
I forgot this was the internet & what happens when you post on internet forums. Sadly, this time, there was no porn.
Then, the obviously fallacious arguments started getting to me, & I just had to show CC how he was wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed that his argument boiled down to the exact definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam, & I'm even more disappointed to see other people using the same fallacy to support their own arguments.
*shrug* It doesn't matter.
Like I said before, the picture is fine. But, since you ask, it's just not the game I want to play. I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials. As much as I would have liked to have given the money to WotC, you saved me about $100.
To quoth Wikipedia, Master Of All Knowledge: "The argument from ignorance,[1] also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance"[1][2]), or negative evidence,[1] is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
Now, going by that basic summation, the fallacy involves using a lack of evidence to imply something other than a lack of evidence. Now, if CC had been making this arguement, that would be quiet the fallacy indeed.
Except no where did she make the arguement. Ever. What she was saying, tirelessly, over and over again, was that there wasn't enough evidencen to make any conclusion whatsover. When she discussed kank-riding being an aberration, or a new norm, or mind control, she was positing several possible alternate explination (several of which are mutually exclusive, mind you) and at no point claimed that any one was an absolute truth. In other words, she never tried to prove anything, other than nothing could be proven at this juncture. Which is radically different from what you accuse her of saying.
At this point your just using latin you copied from Wikipedia to make one big Straw Man.
Furthermore, this post is nothing but a simpering backhand to try and make yourself look better. At no point in the arguement (at least, before you started losing and everyone knew it) did you imply that your behavior was a joke. Your passive agressive attitude and dishonesty are not appreciated. Nor is your immaturity.
THANK YOU!
I just don't want to see Dark Sun ruined in the 4E conversion like the Forgotten Realms were. A Thri Kreen riding a Kank? That makes me think that WoTC is changing things. WoTC changes things for worse, not for the better.
I just don't want to see Dark Sun ruined in the 4E conversion like the Forgotten Realms were. A Thri Kreen riding a Kank? That makes me think that WoTC is changing things. WoTC changes things for worse, not for the better.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I hated FR before 4E, now it seems a bit more interesting to me. So for me, FR was changed for the better, not the worse.
Lets leave the grammar lesson aside unless you are having difficulty comprehending something said. English is not his first language. As it is, he speaks better than most English speakers on here.
Did you read the same post I did?
Lets leave the grammar lesson aside unless you are having difficulty comprehending something said. English is not his first language. As it is, he speaks better than most English speakers on here.
Did you read the same post I did?
Yes, and even for native-english speakers, it is easy quite easy to accidentally type loose rather than lose. We're talking a difference of double-typing a single letter. Not the end of the world. The post Grummore wrote was very clear, even if it contained a typo. We're not taking english grammar 101 here.
The one flaw I see with Elves and Thri-Kreen moving faster out of combat is, does that also go for in-combat movement? If so, should we give them movement speeds of 8 now, instead of 7 and 6? What racial advantages should they lose to balance this out?
Elves and Thri Kreen don't need their combat speed to be boosted to 8, they are already faster than most other races. Elves retain their base movement speed of 7, and Thri Kreen also have a base movement speed of 7, according to the D&D Encounters pregenerated characters.
If you want to fluff that their overland speed is faster, then go ahead. It won't come into play for your party unless they are all Thri Kreen and Elves, but it can certainly be used to explain why Tribes of Elves and Clutches of Kreen can cover so much distance in such a short time.
"You don't know it not to be true, therefore it is true."
This is the exact definition of an argument from ignorance.
I can quite easily turn this around, thusly:
"You don't know it to be true, therefore it is not true." And this statement is exactly as valid as CC's every word posted on this thread.
See? We're even. I just nullified everything CC has contributed to this thread.
Now, let's take into consideration the 19 years of D&D fantasy art on which I'm basing my conclusion.
Not that it matters, but oh, looks like I win.
As for me being a "troll"...
Guys, if you didn't want to have a conversation, then why did you post in the first place? I assume you wanted my honest answers, & my honest answers to your questions is as previously posted. You can interpret my words any way you want, but I posted in the spirit of communication. I feel it's just rude not to answer a question. It's very simple to me: you ask a question, I give an answer. You make a proposal, I'll either agree with it or state why I see how it is flawed. Don't blame me if you have a problem with that.
Ad hominems are the last resort of the defeated, guys.
All I really wanted was a little joke. To share something with people who enjoy the same game that I do. It wasn't even that good a joke. Thanks, internet, for ruining yet another thread.
Elves and Thri Kreen don't need their combat speed to be boosted to 8, they are already faster than most other races. Elves retain their base movement speed of 7, and Thri Kreen also have a base movement speed of 7, according to the D&D Encounters pregenerated characters.
If you want to fluff that their overland speed is faster, then go ahead. It won't come into play for your party unless they are all Thri Kreen and Elves, but it can certainly be used to explain why Tribes of Elves and Clutches of Kreen can cover so much distance in such a short time.
Monsters already have a movement mode call "overland flight" for example. Elves & kreen can simply use that. There is no need to alter their base movement.
Hence, I write better in English than in French.
CC's whole argument can be summed up like this:
"You don't know it not to be true, therefore it is true."
Actually, as I read the argument, I read it as "You don't know it not to be true, therefore you do not know what is true."
Now, let's take into consideration the 19 years of D&D fantasy art on which I'm basing my conclusion.
Not that it matters, but oh, looks like I win.
Wrong. It is not 19 years worth of fantasy art that is being taken into consideration, it is 3 years of fantasy art created 19 years ago. Just as other ideas have evolved over time, so has the Thri Kreen. In this iteration, they do not have bulbous abdomen, they are not Large size creatures, and some of them do ride Kanks.
Is this any different than Gary Gygax taking Tolkein's tall, willowy High Elves and making them shorter than humans, on average? There had been fantasy art of Tolkein's High Elves for 19 years before Dungeons and Dragons was released. Why did Gygax change Elves so they were shorter, didn't he know that Elves were tall. He ruined Elves, I tell you. He obviously had no respect for tradition, and D&D should have been boycotted until Elves were tall again.
All I really wanted was a little joke. To share something with people who enjoy the same game that I do. It wasn't even that good a joke. Thanks, internet, for ruining yet another thread.
The fact that people did not get the joke and treated you seriously should have made you realize that it was a poor joke. However, instead of apologizing for the bad joke, you stoked the fire by calling for WotC to recall the art, threatened to withhold your money and not buy the product, implied that the writers of Dark Sun 4E were lazy and stupid and accused WotC of ruining Dark Sun.
If you did not hold these positions and you still argued for them, is that not the very definition of trolling? If you had assumed a reasonable and defensible position, it might have been Devil's advocacy, but you started from an indefensible position, which made you into a wingnut. The fact that you cross posted the same drivel into the New Releases section only reinforces this view.
This thread is srs bsns because you made it srs bsns. You could have defused the thread before it got 20 replies, but you waited until you had almost hundred to confess that "it was all a joke," and you expected everyone to stop laughing at you when you wanted them to be laughing with you?
Actually, as I read the argument, I read it as "You don't know it not to be true, therefore you do not know what is true."
Given that interpretation, then my earlier responses regarding the artwork's impliactions were entirely appropriate & fully valid.
Wrong. It is not 19 years worth of fantasy art that is being taken into consideration, it is 3 years of fantasy art created 19 years ago. Just as other ideas have evolved over time, so has the Thri Kreen. In this iteration, they do not have bulbous abdomen, they are not Large size creatures, and some of them do ride Kanks.
Not what I was talking about. Rather than repeat myself, I invite you to go back & re-read what was posted. It's not like it's going anywhere, after all.
Is this any different than Gary Gygax taking Tolkein's tall, willowy High Elves and making them shorter than humans, on average?
That's a fair comparison. I'm sure the people who did not appreciate D&D's take on elves didn't spend their money on D&D books, nor were they bullied into doing it.
you stoked the fire by calling for WotC to recall the art,
If WotC does not use the Future Releases forum to gather opinions for future releases, then I misinterpreted the purpose of the forum.
threatened to withhold your money and not buy the product,
What I do with my money is my own business. I never once suggested anything more. I was simply stating an opinion. I can do that. This is a public forum.
implied that the writers of Dark Sun 4E were lazy and stupid and accused WotC of ruining Dark Sun.
I never, NEVER, said anything like that. NEVER did I ever mention anything anywhere about the authors, WotC, the game designers, or even the content of the book. Do not try to put words into my mouth.
I DID talk about the artwork.
I DID talk about the implications of the artwork.
Try to quote where you think I said anything like what you suggest & you will see you can't. Because I never said anything like that.
You could have defused the thread before it got 20 replies, but you waited until you had almost hundred to confess that "it was all a joke," and you expected everyone to stop laughing at you when you wanted them to be laughing with you?
I don't expect anything from anyone on this thread, except a little reading comprehension.
Let me repeat myself: you ask a question, you get an answer. You make a proposal, I offer an opinion. This is a public forum & that's how it works. It's not my problem if other people can't keep a level head.
you started from an indefensible position, which made you into a wingnut. The fact that you cross posted the same drivel into the New Releases section only reinforces this view.
Please see my earlier post regarding the implications of ad hominem arguments. I see now that you are not interested in conversation. Thank you for making it very clear that your opinions can safely be ignored.
You suck, sir.
Easily fixable by following these simple steps:
- Click on thewaever's avatar.
- When you get to his profile, under his bigger avatar, select "Block Member".
- On the next screen, follow the directions for "Click Here to proceed."
- Return to Dark Sun forums and no longer deal with the headache.
implied that the writers of Dark Sun 4E were lazy and stupid and accused WotC of ruining Dark Sun.
Now this pisses me off. I never, NEVER, said anything like that. NEVER did I ever mention anything anywhere about the authors, WotC, the game designers, or even the content of the book. Do not try to put words into my mouth.
I DID talk about the artwork.
I DID talk about the implications of the artwork.
Please try to quote where you think I said anything like what you suggest & you will see you can't. Because I never said anything like that.
From your keyboard, not mine:
If they're going to screw up the fluff, then I'm not going to buy the books.
You imply that WotC has not done the research / work.
Since WotC is the Word of God, whatever they present us with is a role-playing springboard of culture which we can emulate or differentiate ourselves from as we please. In other words, whatever WotC shows us is, by definition, the norm. If WotC says, "thri-kreen ride kanks now," then I'm afraid that they're dumping the rest of the fluff out, too.
You imply that they if they can't get this right, that they won't get the rest right either, ruining the setting.
Seeing the artwork on the upcoming adventure makes me afraid that WotC will fail to provide the amount of fluff that I would like to see.
You imply that they haven't done the work necessary to make the setting live.
Dark Sun is a very unique setting, which relies quite a bit on the presence of fluff.
With the depiction of a thri-kreen riding a kank, there are only three conclusions that you can draw:
1. the thri-kreen in the picture is a weak hunter & outcast from his tribe. His name is Tzzird Nedru'od who rejected his race's evil worhsip of Thlol & fought his way to the surface & freedom.
I find this scenario unlikely, and would have snipped it but for completeness.
2. WotC forgot their own fluff so much, that they got ride of it entirely, or...
This implies that they did not do their research (were lazy).
3. WotC changed the fluff so much as to not be recognizable as Dark Sun at all.
And this implies that the change of fluff can and has ruined Dark Sun. BTW, I think this is the most reasonable explanation for the Kreen riding a Kank, that they changed the fluff. If this piece of fluff is the deal breaker for you, then WotC did, indeed, ruin Dark Sun for you.
WotC determines what is normal & abnormal through the fluff it presents. It is presenting a thri-kreen riding a kank. Therefore, according to WotC, riding is normal for thri-kreen.
This is a bad thing, because Dark Sun is all about the abnormal. It's boring to be normal. By allowing them to ride, WotC has made thri-kreen normal, & therefore boring.
Another implication that WotC has ruined Dark Sun (or, at least, Thri Kreen in Dark Sun).
Like I said before, the picture is fine. But, since you ask, it's just not the game I want to play. I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials.
Again, based on one picture, you come to the conclusion that WotC has changed the fluff of Dark Sun so much that they ruined Dark Sun for you.
These are things that you implied based on the one piece of art. You implied that if they changed the fluff of Thri Kreen so that they ride (in your opinion, a major facet of what made Kreen Kreen), that they could be stupid enough to change the rest of the fluff to make Dark Sun unrecongnizable. You implied that they did not do their research into the things that make Dark Sun unique, or, if they did, they did not understand it. You implied that the changes to the fluff will make Dark Sun boring, thus ruining the setting.
I cannot show you where you said these things directly, because you implied them. These are the things that I understood you to feel from the words that you used.
You also come forth and say in no uncertain terms that you want the same amount of fluff that existed in previous treatments of the setting. I understand that a want and an expectation are different. I don't know what you are expecting WotC to produce for Dark Sun in 4E, but you are not going to get the same depth of fluff that we had before. It simply isn't going to happen under the current business model. Just as with FR and Eberron, they are going to give us a solid base of fluff, and let the DMs flesh out their campaigns as they see fit. Thri Kreen are going to have a page and a half devoted to their fluff in their racial description, just as every other race has gotten, and maybe a sum total of two more pages as they gazeteer around the region. The depth that you desire simply isn't going to be there, there are not enough pages for it.
If you want to see how the idea of Athas has evolved over the last 20 years, give the 4E version a chance. If your memories of Dark Sun are sacrosanct, then stick to your guns, take the crunch from DDI, and use all the fluff from your old materials.
4- I know it's futile, but I fight nonetheless for things that SHOULD matter. Peoples keep telling that if there is a part that you do not like, dont use it. BUT EACH DAMN product they will produce WILL have thigns that ARENT darksun in it. And if I want to buy, let's say, an adventure, I will HAVE to modify it to remove all the WRONG things that are inside.
Hrm, you know what, that sounds like just what I and other first set purists had to do after the second boxed set and the Prism Pentad came out, with dead SKs and dragon, a stupid Rajaat storyline, and so forth.
(by example the thiefling with demonic blood... there is NO DEMON in the DS setting, and yet again see the peoples yapping about this thing I point out instead of seeing it as an example for something bigger).
Yes, there are. Check the first edition boxed set encounter tables. Also, IIRC, the Black Spine adventure. And you're complaining about people not knowing enough about the setting to truly feel it? Or that a kreen-riding kank (and etc) will make the setting not the setting you've been playing for years?
This is what people keep trying to point out to you: the setting you keep insisting is the one-true-setting that changing will unmake the essence of...isn't the one true setting. Tell me, in the REAL Dark Sun, can dwarves cast wizard spells? Can non-humans become Advanced Beings? Does the Wanderer have one arm?
5- Someone said it's important to feel a good part of the supplement that have been created. OF COURSE I HAVENT READ all the DS books cover to cover, thought I have skimmed inside enough to get the FEEL of it.
I have. Read them all. Cover-to-cover. The "essence" and "feel" of Dark Sun is not being lost. Not because of kanks. Not because of tieflings. Not because of minor changes to the fluff. Because the "essence" isn't contained in any of the details you're complaining about.
The "essence" and "feel" of Dark Sun is not being lost. Not because of kanks. Not because of tieflings. Not because of minor changes to the fluff. Because the "essence" isn't contained in any of the details you're complaining about.
You show great wisdom.
You show great wisdom.
He's the greyorm.
lol, I got monitored
Penn, my friend, this is why we don't feed the troll and simply push the "Report Post" button.
That, or use humor, like I was thinking of responding at some point by saying, "Redkank!? Is that you?!"
You show great wisdom.
He's the greyorm.
lol. Well, thank you both!
From my end, the three images are a bit of a surprise. I really like the mantis shape of prior editions. I thought it fit the race and how unique it is. Making them walk upright on two legs makes them less unique and loses some flavor. Not the end of the world, but it is a loss for me. Not every race needs to wear pants and have breasts. There is a balance between approachable and colorful, but I never heard any player have trouble wanting to play a thri-kreen. It seems just fine the way it was.
I do agree with the likely mechanical change to let thri-kreen use regular item slots (previous 'kreen could not use many magic items), but that can be done in various ways.
Thri-Kreen rinding a kank... it's o.k....
satyr riding a centaur... amazing....
note: No i did not paint this... nor do i know who did...
yes that is a duck
>> Because peoples want to have a Diablo or computer RPG equivalent on tabletop RPG ?
>> GEEZ NO.
>
> WTF does that have to do with anything ever?
Since we're on the topic of fallacies, I'll explain this one: "It's just a Diablo clone!" was the 2E-vs-3E version of the 3E-vs-4E argument commonly nicknamed "Reductio ad WoW".
I should thank you guys for convincing me I don't need to buy the new Dark Sun materials. As much as I would have liked to have given the money to WotC, you saved me about $100.
I hereby move that everyone who's posted a reply to thewaever's inane baiting be awarded the forum title 'Troll Scorcher'. Hamanu may have cleansed Athas of trolls, but it's the folk in this thread who've kept at least one of them from returning.
That, or use humor, like I was thinking of responding at some point by saying, "Redkank!? Is that you?!"
Ahh, Redkank. Memories.
Wait until you see a half-giant riding a halfling...
Or a gnome, riding nibenay. If only I could draw..... I'd have a kank, riding a thrikreen, wielding an iron trident, with a surf board strapped on the back and an Ipod in his beltpouch. (assuming the kank is male)
I've read your post, & I can see you are taking things out of proportion. Indeed, I don't know if you are baiting me on purpose or if you honestly believe that your interpretations are fair, but I'd say that your inferences grow in the telling, if you catch my meaning.
Especially when you say things like:
You imply that they if they can't get this right, that they won't get the rest right either, ruining the setting.
As an interpretation for:
Since WotC is the Word of God, whatever they present us with is a role-playing springboard of culture which we can emulate or differentiate ourselves from as we please. In other words, whatever WotC shows us is, by definition, the norm. If WotC says, "thri-kreen ride kanks now," then I'm afraid that they're dumping the rest of the fluff out, too.
You're also taking things out of context. Sure, I used some slightly strong terms, but only in response to some pretty hyperbolic statements from other posters. You have to consider the kind of language to which I was replying.
I can tell you that whatever your honest interpretation is, I was simply talking about the implications of the artwork. Any additional inference is a figment of your imagination.
I cannot show you where you said these things directly, because you implied them. These are the things that I understood you to feel from the words that you used.
Let me assure you, then, that you are mistaken in your inferences.
I don't know what you are expecting WotC to produce for Dark Sun in 4E, but you are not going to get the same depth of fluff that we had before. It simply isn't going to happen under the current business model.
Naturally, but if I & other people voice their opinions, then WotC may decide to change their business model & include more fluff. I had thought that THAT was the purpose of the Future Release forum. Stating my opinion was the purpose of the Future Release thread. The purpose of this thread, as stated earlier, was to have a bit of fun with people I had thought shared an interst of mine. It looks like I was mistaken.
If you want to see how the idea of Athas has evolved over the last 20 years, give the 4E version a chance. If your memories of Dark Sun are sacrosanct, then stick to your guns, take the crunch from DDI, and use all the fluff from your old materials.
Sound advice. I will give Dark Sun a chance. I have always planned to. I'm just saying that the input from this thread is making me not want to buy the books. Before, I had planned on pre-ordering the books without even looking at them. But now, I'm going to read them first before I decide whether or not my money will be wasted on this product.
But, if I was to go on the input from you & others on this thread, you guys are doing a good job of saving me about $100. (And, again, let me assure you that my earlier post regarding this matter used slightly hyperbolic language in response to some aggressive posts on this thread)
You're also taking things out of context. Sure, I used some slightly strong terms, but only in response to some pretty hyperbolic statements from other posters. You have to consider the kind of language to which I was replying.
I can tell you that whatever your honest interpretation is, I was simply talking about the implications of the artwork. Any additional inference is a figment of your imagination.I cannot show you where you said these things directly, because you implied them. These are the things that I understood you to feel from the words that you used.
Let me assure you, then, that you are mistaken in your inferences.
Can you see that your reaction to this one piece of art may have been somewhat stronger than it warranted? There are some very good reasons why Wizards may have changed the Kreen fluff so that they make use of mounts. But you never bothered to ask about those reasons, or even acknowledged that there may be reasons. Instead, you began campaigning for them to change the artwork of an already commissioned and produced piece for a book that is probably already at the printers.
As for those good reasons:
1) Kreen are not large creatures any more. While this idea may have been more abstract in previous editions, it carries great mechanical benefits in 4E. Being medium sized creatures now, they have many more options for using mounts. If they retained this fluff, it would actually be penalizing the player for choosing a Kreen. Penalizing players for their choices is something they have decided they do not want to do in 4E (unless you are Small, apparently
But that is another debate, for another forum).2) With the change to Kreen physiology in 3.x so that they no longer had that abdomen, the major physical barrier to Kreen riding a mount is gone. Again, since they now have more options for riding a mount, to restrict them from doing so penalizes a player for choosing a Kreen.
3) They have said that they have increased the scale of Athas. Places are farther apart than they used to be. Altaruk to Tyr is at least five days hard travel now, maybe longer (We'll have a better idea when the second season of Encounters is over), instead of three to four days "relaxed" travel. With the increased scale, they may have decided that restricting any race from using mounts was a bad idea unless they gave the race some sort of overland travel ability. The problem with that is the overland travel ability would almost never come into play unless the party was entirely composed of Elves or Kreen (a party composed entirely of Elves AND Kreen might make for some fun roleplaying ;) ).
Naturally, but if I & other people voice their opinions, then WotC may decide to change their business model & include more fluff. I had thought that THAT was the purpose of the Future Release forum. Stating my opinion was the purpose of the Future Release thread. The purpose of this thread, as stated earlier, was to have a bit of fun with people I had thought shared an interst of mine. It looks like I was mistaken.
Except that you never once in that thread asked for more fluff or a change in the business model. You didn't ask for a Dark Sun Races: Thri Kreen book, or a Dark Sun Locations: Balic or Dark Sun Locations: The Jagged Cliffs. The entire purpose of this thread and the thread in New Releases was a demand for Wizards reconsider artwork that had already been bought and paid for, and probably already printed.
All of us posting in here, whether we have agreed with you or not, want to see Dark Sun be as good as it can be. Most of us think that you and Gunmore (your main supporter, who has done nothing to help your case) have blown this way out of proportion. It is a change to one piece of fluff, which in the grand scheme of things, is one of the smallest changes of all of the fluff changes. In addition to being one of the smallest of the fluff changes, it has been proven that same piece of fluff was minor even in 2nd Edition.
Sound advice. I will give Dark Sun a chance. I have always planned to. I'm just saying that the input from this thread is making me not want to buy the books. Before, I had planned on pre-ordering the books without even looking at them. But now, I'm going to read them first before I decide whether or not my money will be wasted on this product.
But, if I was to go on the input from you & others on this thread, you guys are doing a good job of saving me about $100. (And, again, let me assure you that my earlier post regarding this matter used slightly hyperbolic language in response to some aggressive posts on this thread)
I'm sure that most of the scorn directed against you has been because you fixated on this one piece of art. If you had come with a laundry list of upcoming changes to Dark Sun that you did not like, and claimed that this was the grain of sand that broke the kank's thorax, you might have gotten a more sympathetic response.
While mounted Kreen makes the Kreen lose a little flavor over Kreen in 2nd Edition, this loss does not automatically make them "humans with chitin." In the end, just as with every other non-human race, playing them as "humans with x" is in the hands of the player. If someone chooses to play their Kreen as Ant-Man (Hank Pym, that is) rather than Annihilus (especially as he is portrayed in Annihilation: Conquest, his depiction there is much more insectoid and alien than it has ever been in Fantastic Four), isn't that on the head of the player, no matter how much fluff is produced?
OK so im new to darksun but have the ad&d books.
Why cant a kreen ride a kank?
I know that one edition wanted them to be large size creatures, but they have been balanced out.
I do notice in the picture that the kreen is weilding more than two weapons, that has been anounced as a nono for 4e. They will have a claw racial attack like dragonborns dragon breath.
If a player was to be a kreen he would have to be medium size and can only dual weild. For the sake of other players having to "compete" to have fun with someone whos getting all the kills.
ide imagine that the jeral and the to'ska kreen are able to quad weild and are larger.
The players would play a species of tohr-kreen with two "weilding" hands and two "praying mantis claws" that dont have the ability to grasp objects, thus not janking up the blanace.
so everyone keeps their nostalgia and the game is still balanced.
OK so im new to darksun but have the ad&d books.
Why cant a kreen ride a kank?
There was no mechanical reason (aside from being as large as the creatures they might attempt to ride), but an RP reason. One of the 2nd Edition books contained a passage that Kreen did not ride other animals becasue they felt it was akin to "playing with their food."
I do notice in the picture that the kreen is weilding more than two weapons, that has been anounced as a nono for 4e. They will have a claw racial attack like dragonborns dragon breath.
If a player was to be a kreen he would have to be medium size and can only dual weild. For the sake of other players having to "compete" to have fun with someone whos getting all the kills.
The Kreen is carrying more than two weapons, which is different from wielding more than two weapons. One of the Thri Kreen racial abilities in 4E is the ability to stow or draw an item as a Free Action once per turn, showing that, even while they are fighting with their two primary arms, they can still be doing things with their secondary arms.ide imagine that the jeral and the to'ska kreen are able to quad weild and are larger.
The players would play a species of tohr-kreen with two "weilding" hands and two "praying mantis claws" that dont have the ability to grasp objects, thus not janking up the blanace.
so everyone keeps their nostalgia and the game is still balanced.
The other species of Kreen will either not be selectable as player races, the fluff will be changed so that the differences are social rather than physical, or they will be represented by Feats, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.
I'm sure that most of the scorn directed against you has been because you fixated on this one piece of art. If you had come with a laundry list of upcoming changes to Dark Sun that you did not like, and claimed that this was the grain of sand that broke the kank's thorax, you might have gotten a more sympathetic response.
I never expected people to get so bent out of shape by a post as short as "/facepalm" Like I said, this thread wasn't meant as anything more than a little diversion for me. If I had intended to debate the fine points of 4E vs. 2E Dark Sun, I would've waited until the books were published so that I knew what was going on.
I posted the thread on the Future Releases forum, because I had hoped have my opinion heard by the WotC in the sky, & hopefully make a difference.
I feel like I'm on Battlestar Galactica: All this has been said before, and will be said again.
If someone chooses to play their Kreen as Ant-Man (Hank Pym, that is) rather than Annihilus (especially as he is portrayed in Annihilation: Conquest, his depiction there is much more insectoid and alien than it has ever been in Fantastic Four), isn't that on the head of the player, no matter how much fluff is produced?
Ultimately, the answer is "yes," with a huge BUTT... I mean THORAX... I mean BUT (see what I did there? lol)
If WotC never presents the option of an insectoid, alien thri-kreen in the first place, then the players, especially new ones, well never know they have that option. Fluff is important because it helps expand people's options for the game. It's like what malisteen said (post #25) about how his players' characters are full of wonderful backstory & interestingly complex motivations when they play a White Wolf game, but when those exact same players create D&D characters, the D&D characters are nothing but crunch. And this is solely because D&D books lack in fluff.
It's like what malisteen said (post #25) about how his players' characters are full of wonderful backstory & interestingly complex motivations when they play a White Wolf game, but when those exact same players create D&D characters, the D&D characters are nothing but crunch. And this is solely because D&D books lack in fluff.
Well, apples and oranges aside...
The Storyteller system provides deep mechanical benefits and rules for social interaction, and actively discourages physical confrontation by making combat lethal, and often one-sided.
Social interaction is the combat of the Soryteller system. The best blend of combat and socialization that exists in a White Wolf product is probably the Exalted setting, but the characters in Exalted a miles above Vampires, Werewolves and Mages in power.
I will agree that D&D books lack fluff, but the expectation is that the players and DMs who want the fluffy bits will do some of the work creating them themselves. Wizards wants their fluff and their crunch to exist side by side, and not interfere with each other. This is why there are far fewer restrictions on the players' options based on their race in 4E than there have ever been in any edition of D&D.
That being said, maybe thanks to my time as a player and Game Master in other systems, all of the characters (PC & NPC) I create in 4E have backgrounds every bit as detailed as characters I have created in other systems. I simply find it that much easier to get into character and have fun if I know who the character is, where they came from, and why they do the things they do. I encourage players around my table to do the same thing. Some are better roleplayers than others, it is true, but we have just as much fun when we have a "dice lite" night, where we can delve into the character's personalities, as we do when we spend most of the session in combat.
P.S. It could be because I spend so much time DMing, but I have absolutely no qualms about creating and populating whole cities or nations when I create a backstory for a PC, and giving it all to the DM. I figure the more I give him, the less work he needs to do fleshing out his campaign. He can tell me what doesn't fit, and then use the rest.
I personaly use the mass amounts of generator tables from 3.5 and ran the temple of elemental evil from 2nd edition all in 4e just fine.
Dont think of 4e like its missing stuff from past editions. Think of 4e as the new rules, and the fluff in it is just for new players.
plain 4e = d&d
1e to 4e = advanced d&d
saying that you cant use old editions referencs is like saying you cant use Tolken
Social interaction is the combat of the Soryteller system.
Regardless, White Wolf provides enough fluff in their books that pushes detailed character development, so the players create developed characters. I would like to see some of that sort of thing in D&D. I fear that the artwork on this Dark Sun adventure implies an erosion or a lack of Dark Sun fluff. I hope that I'm wrong, but just in case, I created the thread on the Future Releases forum. If I see something I don't like, I want to help fix it.
I will agree that D&D books lack fluff, but the expectation is that the players and DMs who want the fluffy bits will do some of the work creating them themselves.
Let me put it to you this way.
Here is John. He enters a restaurant & the waiter gives him a menu. There is only one item on the menu: steak tartar. So, John orders the steak tartar.
The waiter gives him a dirty look, "Why didn't you get the t-bone? It's much better."
Surprised, John says, "It's not on the menu."
"That doesn't mean you can't have a t-bone steak."
Nonplussed, John replies, "Well, can you please put it on the menu next time?"
"WHAT ARE YOU? SOME KIND OF LAZY ROLE-PLAYER!?!?!? I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT IT ON THE FRACKING MENU!! JUST ORDER THE DAMNED FOOD YOU WANT!!!!"
Keep in mind that I'm being metaphorical here, but this is how I feel people reacted to a perfectly reasonable request, both here & on the future releases thread.
The moral of the story is: WotC is the restaurant. They give us the menus (sourcebooks) from which we can choose. Sure, people can create any kind of character they want, but the reality is that the sourcebooks & their (lack of) fluff are going to guide the DM's & the players' choices. It's much easier to create & run a character/game-world by selecting from the menu. It's much more labor-intensive to have to create everything from scratch.
Also, if I'm going to have to create everything from scratch anyway, why buy the sourcebooks at all?
I simply find it that much easier to get into character and have fun if I know who the character is, where they came from, and why they do the things they do.
{snip}
P.S. It could be because I spend so much time DMing, but I have absolutely no qualms about creating and populating whole cities or nations when I create a backstory for a PC, and giving it all to the DM. I figure the more I give him, the less work he needs to do fleshing out his campaign. He can tell me what doesn't fit, and then use the rest.
I feel the same way
This is why I want fluff: so I have the materials to build a game world. People's reactions on this thread are like giving a kid a hotwheels car & then getting pissed off at him when he didn't build a lego racer. The Storyteller system provides deep mechanical benefits and rules for social interaction, and actively discourages physical confrontation by making combat lethal, and often one-sided.
Are you talking about the new Storyteller system, or the old one? (Because the old one did no such thing. I haven't bothered looking at the new one.)
I dont really see how much fluff is really needed? Character creation wise anyways.
Tho I did like the different human subraces in greyhawk.
As for stuff like elves.. what more can you say? other than highelf, woodelf, ect.
lets compare the fluff of a lord of the rings character to your average player character?
i would bet that most people who play dnd work extensivly on their backround, and dont need any real fluff other than that needed for continuity
Re: Restaurant menu example
The various sourcebooks, fluff light as they are, encourage you to use you imagination and run with it. The Player's Handbook (the menu, if you will) says in plain English that your character is more than just numbers and statistics on a page. By giving them personality and history, you can take that Level 1 Fighter and make him into Jaden the Grim, hero of legend.
And our menu, just by virtue of association, encompasses all of fantasy literature. I'l admit that many of my first characters when I was a tween (in fact, I'm old enough that the word "tween" was not a noun, but a hacked version of "between." We were called pre-teens or children back then ;) ) were ripped straight from the pages of my favorite fantasy stories. My very first D&D character could have been named Konan and it wouldn't have been any easier to see the inspiration.
Other sources of inspiration were Elric of Melnibone, Eomer, Dar the Beastmaster, and my namesake, Malak from Conan the Destroyer. I am happy to say that I grew out of this phase long before Drizz't do'Urden came about. :D
All of these and many, many more are on the menu. While the combinations that make our characters distinct from the source may not be on the menu, all of the ingredients are. It is up to us to put those ingreients together to suit our tastes.
The Storyteller system provides deep mechanical benefits and rules for social interaction, and actively discourages physical confrontation by making combat lethal, and often one-sided.
Are you talking about the new Storyteller system, or the old one? (Because the old one did no such thing. I haven't bothered looking at the new one.)
Old WoD. I don't have any practical experience with the new, but I have some experience with the systems that were changed between the two versions by virtue of having experience with the systems that tried the new mechanics first (Exalted and the Aeon Trinity).
The World of Darkness' Backgrounds, Merits and Flaws are almost entirely focused on the Social side of things, as were most of the powers.
Thanks to the penalties to all rolls depending on wound level, once a fight started going south, the chances of pulling out a win were incredibly slim. For this reason, getting into a physical confrontation when you don't already have the upper hand becomes and extremely risky proposition, and one should always be prepared to practice discretion. I used to play a Gangrel, and another player was a Brujah, and my Coterie still tried to talk our way out of most situations because we knew how dangerous combat was. Three or four hits either kills you or burns through your Blood Pool as you heal it, and Caine forbid it be aggravated damage. Unless you were a Werewolf. If you are a Werewolf, then you have an edge, as long as you aren't fighting another Werewolf.
[Restaurant example]
This would be fine... if players were just ordinary consumers. But they're more like chefs, and WotC is setting up a cooking competition. The DM chooses the theme ("southwestern" or "Italian" or what-have-you). The books are a springboard for ideas, meant to inspire. Most details in the 4e books end with a few seeds, provocative questions asking you to take it to the next level, and suggesting a few possibilities you can flesh out - often reminding you that you can Take A Third Option (ie, do something that the book hasn't suggested). They also offer alternative-fluff interpretations of the same mechanics that might be a little at-odds with one another, in case you want your world to be more X-themed than Y (if they even explain why you might choose one interpretation over another).
Or using your second comparison, it's like giving a kid a set of LEGO, and he's complaining that he has to build the example on the box. It's a set of LEGO, you can build whatever you want with it.
The World of Darkness' Backgrounds, Merits and Flaws are almost entirely focused on the Social side of things, as were most of the powers.
Hrm. I played WoD for a couple years in college, and yeah, they had those things. But they didn't really provide "deep mechanical benefits". When I think of something that affects play on a deep mechanical level, I think of Aspects from FATE, or of Burning Wheel's social combat system.
Anyways, in my experience, Merits/Flaws didn't really do anything unless the players or GM actually did all the work to mention/include/keep them in mind during play. I always found they were kind of like D&D's alignment that way -- use or ignore at your leisure. GURPS had the same issue with the same.
I think there's an actual social combat system in the new WoD, too (but don't quote me on that), which is why I asked. Was wondering if that's what you were talking about and how it worked.
Tangentially, my experience of WoD combat matches with Xlor's: combat wasn't all that deadly. It was stupid random, but not deadly (ex: when the military-background warrior werewolf build can't hit anything, ever, during multiple sessions, it's stupid). And time-consuming. So, odd.
Here is John. He enters a restaurant & the waiter gives him a menu. There is only one item on the menu: steak tartar. So, John orders the steak tartar.
The waiter gives him a dirty look, "Why didn't you get the t-bone? It's much better."
Surprised, John says, "It's not on the menu."
"That doesn't mean you can't have a t-bone steak."
Nonplussed, John replies, "Well, can you please put it on the menu next time?"
"WHAT ARE YOU? SOME KIND OF LAZY ROLE-PLAYER!?!?!? I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PUT IT ON THE FRACKING MENU!! JUST ORDER THE DAMNED FOOD YOU WANT!!!!"
Keep in mind that I'm being metaphorical here, but this is how I feel people reacted to a perfectly reasonable request, both here & on the future releases thread.
No, what's happening here is more like...
Here is Teddy. He enters a restaurant, and the waiter gives him a menu. there is only one item pictured on the cover of the menu: steak tartar. So, without opening the menu at all, Teddy orders the steak tartar.
The waiter gives him a questioning look. "Did you not feel like opening the menu to see what we have here? We have a lot of options. I recommend the t-bone."
Surprised, Teddy replies, "It's not on the cover of the menu."
"We can't fit everything on the cover of the menu. You have to look inside to see everything that we have to offer."
Nonplussed, Teddy replies, "Well, can't you just put the menu item that I would like the best on the cover of the menu?"
Teddy is being absolutely ridiculous.
4- I know it's futile, but I fight nonetheless for things that SHOULD matter. Peoples keep telling that if there is a part that you do not like, dont use it. BUT EACH DAMN product they will produce WILL have thigns that ARENT darksun in it. And if I want to buy, let's say, an adventure, I will HAVE to modify it to remove all the WRONG things that are inside. (by example the thiefling with demonic blood... there is NO DEMON in the DS setting, and yet again see the peoples yapping about this thing I point out instead of seeing it as an example for something bigger).
1) It's Tiefling, not Thiefling. There is no H.
2) Devil, not Demon, and yes, there is a massive difference.
3) Tiefling's do not have Devil blood*. They have human blood corrupted by magic. Sounds like a certain arid setting to me ...
4) Devils and/or Demons do exist in Dark Sun. There were summonable in 2e.
* - the one exception being if you take a specific racial feat, which means your Tiefling ancestors mated with a Devil, but they were still Tieflings before that happened.
Here is theweaver. He enters a restaurant & the waiter gives him a menu. There is a picture of a t-bone steak with rich garnish on the cover of the meny. Theweaver goes into emo rage, does a /facepalm /faceplam /headdesk, and then storms out of the restaurant shouting. 'They expect me to eat my steak with my bare hands in this restaurant. There was no fork or knife on the cover of the meny and that implies that they have no forks or knives in the restaurant. THIS IS OUTRAGE!'
There is exactly the same amount of tiny fluff in a TK ridding a kank compared to the fluff in a TK not ridding a kank. Go troll somewhere else and take your tartar steak with you. If I want to order a burger, but don't want it with onion - I'll tell the waiter to hold the onion - I won't scream at him why there is no onionless burger in the meny.
You are blowing things WAY AND WAY AND WAY out of proportion.
Point is, 2e thrikreen >4e thrikreen. While I'm at it, 2e halfgiants>4e goliath.
Your personal illogical and subjective opinion are no more of a poin than mine.
But please elaborate what advantages does the 2e halfgiants have over the 4e halfgiants (that share racial traits with goliaths) from fluff and from crunch point of view sepparately.
Is that your signiture or not
E. G. Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 1979.
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
Hypocrisy is strong withing you if you are adamant that thrikreen ridding kanks on the cover of some book is making 2e>4e.
Most of these replies have been more overblown and absurd than anything the OP has said. Then again, I'v not read every page.
Point is, 2e thrikreen >4e thrikreen. While I'm at it, 2e halfgiants>4e goliath.
I have to agree with the above post. The OP's /facepalm post is not nearly as bad as some of the words being slung around this thread. Way out of proportion is a thread with over 400 replies, many of which are filled with hate, over the OP's disappointment with one aspect of one piece of artwork. That doesn't need a metaphor because we are living it right now.
It is hard to post on these forums, as often times a slight disagreement is greeted with very personal attacks. It is easy to accuse someone who posts disappointment with 4e as a troll, but what of all the posters who then say some very hurtful things only vaguely on topic?
Personally I think it is a bigger change from 2e that the Thrikreen is humanoid than that they might ride kanks. I'm disappointed with the change to the more humanoid form, but I'll still play 4e. I'll even get the Dark Sun books, and it is because I loved my big bug looking Thrikreen PC from the old Dark Sun that I'll want to play the new Dark Sun. Even if that means my Thrikreen will be a humanoid on a kank.
Its about balance guys... we cant have have large size kreen players quad weilding and makeing their own spit crystal weapons killing everything makeing the other players feel insignificant and takeing the fun out of the game.
THE END
Having (regrettably) read this entire trainwreck, I have only one thing to clarify for the OP.
Thri-kreen of Athas only implies that thri-kreen typically don't ride other creatures. It provides two reasons for this, one of which is comfort related (lolcomfortinAthas) and the other of which is race-specific public perception. It even provides a very specific exception to the above: gladiatorial training. Considering that most PC thri-kreen belong to non-kreen clutches, and a notable portion start as gladiators (in both editions, being presented as a fairly common reason for kreen becoming adventurers), there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a kreen on a kank, in any edition.
Thri-kreen of Athas only implies that thri-kreen typically don't ride other creatures. It provides two reasons for this, one of which is comfort related (lolcomfortinAthas) and the other of which is race-specific public perception. It even provides a very specific exception to the above: gladiatorial training. Considering that most PC thri-kreen belong to non-kreen clutches, and a notable portion start as gladiators (in both editions, being presented as a fairly common reason for kreen becoming adventurers), there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for a kreen on a kank, in any edition.
Keep playing 2e then and don't troll the 4e community who actually prefer a balanced system that lets their immagination fly instead of unbalanced one that forces them into inflexible and rigid fluff.
If this is how you view older editions, that's your problem. Who is playing will always matter far more than what system is used.
Also, the proposed 4e thri-kreen seem to be quite a bit more inflexible and rigid than they were in previous editions. Having four arms and not being able to wield four weapons at once? Sounds pretty arbitrary not to mention overly contrived and restricted.
Personally, I'd argue that an over emphasis on forced "balance" (as opposed to the the balance that naturally happens when everything is allowed to fall into place as it may), is directly contrary letting one's "imagination fly".
Regardless, people will just house rule things to their taste.
Its about balance guys... we cant have have large size kreen players quad weilding and makeing their own spit crystal weapons killing everything makeing the other players feel insignificant and takeing the fun out of the game.
THE END
Balance is overrated. Not that I think large thri-kreen are inherently unbalanced, in any edition. The very fact that bigger creatures cannot fit into smaller spaces is balance enough, IMO.
If large thri-kreen could ruin your game, I suspect your game is too fragile and your players too unimaginative for my tastes.
Thri-kreen of Athas only implies that thri-kreen typically don't ride other creatures.
I agree.
There are no absolutes, especially when it comes to the choices of free-willed beings.
Also, the proposed 4e thri-kreen seem to be quite a bit more inflexible and rigid than they were in previous editions. Having four arms and not being able to wield four weapons at once? Sounds pretty arbitrary not to mention overly contrived and restricted.
Who told you that they are not able to wield four weapons at once? They don't get twice the number of attacks that every other character does, but I don't see what is stopping them to hold a weapon in each hand. You can "attack" with each weapon even if the rules don't allow it. Get a close burst, jump between 4 enemies and describe your attack as attacking each one of them with different weapon. I don't see the problem with that. If you want even find 5 enemies and describe your last attack as taking a bite of him. You want your TK to have poison saliva? Get some whetstones of venom. The balanced system does not stop your immagination in any way and if you want unbalanced one - you already have it, don't insist on second copy of it.
Having four arms and not being able to wield four weapons at once? Sounds pretty arbitrary not to mention overly contrived and restricted.
Really? I always thought that it was silly that they could wield four weapons at once to begin with. I can blame that on inconsistent art, however. In a lot of art, two of their arms are depicted as ending in claws that have no opposable thumbs, so of course these arms shouldn't and wouldn't be able to wield anything.
Of course, this was just the first image that I ever saw of them, so it's the one that comes to mind when I think about them. I get that there are conflicting images like this one.
Wow, people really think the OP is being responded to the way he's being responded to because he facepalmed? Apparently, those folks didn't read all the passive-aggressive posts made by the OP AFTER the facepalm well before anyone "attacked" him...
QFT
I didn't think it had anything to do with, nor was my response remotely reacting to the initial post. At all. It was 100% the way the OP continued to respond, over and over and over, both on this thread and the one in Future Releases, that brought about my own post. My own post that, I noticed immediately, was completely ignored by the OP, as were the bulk of the posts that were, IMHO, reasoned rebuttals.
Of course the original /facepalm was no big deal. It was the ongoing damage posting that were over the top.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm abnormal to react like this at age 30, or if I'm extra-normal for it.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm abnormal to react like this at age 30, or if I'm extra-normal for it.
Nah. You're just SPECIAL.
Keep playing 2e then and don't troll the 4e community who actually prefer a balanced system that lets their immagination fly instead of unbalanced one that forces them into inflexible and rigid fluff.
Your personal illogical and subjective opinion are no more of a poin than mine.
But please elaborate what advantages does the 2e halfgiants have over the 4e halfgiants (that share racial traits with goliaths) from fluff and from crunch point of view sepparately.
Is that your signiture or notE. G. Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 1979.
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
Hypocrisy is strong withing you if you are adamant that thrikreen ridding kanks on the cover of some book is making 2e>4e.
Wow, such agression. You seemed to have completely failed to get that I was joking about the whole 2e>4e even though I added the :p smiley. Totally different systems, both have something to offer and I enjoy both.
I guess I need to spell things out in big letters, so people don't misunderstand.
<-- That means the above sentence was a joke and not to be taken seriously. But feel free to get all butthurt if that's what you enjoy.
he said butt
(He also did so in a contextually incorrect sense; the thorax is not, Not, NOT the butt...it is the middle section where the legs are attached. The abdomen is the butt on an insect. Just an FYI to whomever cares)
Crap, I also said butt...oh, no, I did it again! ;)
and as Tectuktitlay noted, the thri-kreen still has a thorax, it is now missing an abdomen. this would explain why it now rides a kank... the kank is no longer considered food since the new thri-kreen don't eat, having lost the ability to process/digest food since it no longer posses the appropriate organs to do so...
also, the abdomen contsains the reproductive organs of insects...the question now is how do they reproduce?
www.earthlife.net/insects/anat-abdomen.h...
Where does it say, thrikreen no longer eat? That's just silly. Removes the entire thrikreen/elf factor, which would suck if it were true and would be something I'd drop from my game. IMG thrikreen DO eat and some even eat elves.
The joke: you are missing it.
The joke: you are missing it.
Hold the thought. What if the joke is on us, hm?
Where does it say, thrikreen no longer eat? That's just silly. Removes the entire thrikreen/elf factor, which would suck if it were true and would be something I'd drop from my game. IMG thrikreen DO eat and some even eat elves.
The joke: you are missing it.
you sir, get a ceramic piece... and if there was a ceramic piece icon available i would have put it here...
which makes me wish WOTC would make a ceramic piece icon available for the darksun forum... maybe even bits...
Where does it say, thrikreen no longer eat? That's just silly. Removes the entire thrikreen/elf factor, which would suck if it were true and would be something I'd drop from my game. IMG thrikreen DO eat and some even eat elves.
actually... according to the DS campaign setting, in your game (your game specifically... i'm not sure why they singled you out. if i were you i'd write a complaint letter to the developers) the thri-kreen never ate elves... they ate gnomes (and only gnomes). since the gnomes were killed off, thri-kreen evolution dictated that the thri-kreen loose the abdomen and the ability to digest any food. they now feed and on the hopes and dreams of children. the DSCS also says you are not allowed to hourse-rule gnomes into existance without filling out the following form:
also, elves now eat dwarves
actually... according to the DS campaign setting, in your game (your game specifically... i'm not sure why they singled you out. if i were you i'd write a complaint letter to the developers) the thri-kreen never ate elves... they ate gnomes (and only gnomes). since the gnomes were killed off, thri-kreen evolution dictated that the thri-kreen loose the abdomen and the ability to digest any food. they now feed and on the hopes and dreams of children. the DSCS also says you are not allowed to hourse-rule gnomes into existance without filling out the following form:
You are the man! I love you! Muhahahahaha
And why do we think he is riding it? the way i see it the thri keen ambushed the kank and jumped on its back to kill it and eat it.
Unless we're provided with rules on allowing faster overland movement for Elves and Kreens...why wouldn't they use mounts?
One can fudge overland movement numbers for these two in their home game, recreating their great 2e fast movement, but any kind of official game will depict them using mounts unless WotC did something about it in the DS rulebook, something they haven't told us.
There may be an overland movement table listing all PC races independent of the racial entries.
I imagine that elf run will be done with a Racial [tribal] like feat. Where you can increase the distance traveled in a day Dependant on the number of elves near you with that feat.
NPC elves are just that NPCs and can do what ever is required of them for the purpose of the story.
actually... according to the DS campaign setting, in your game (your game specifically... i'm not sure why they singled you out. if i were you i'd write a complaint letter to the developers) the thri-kreen never ate elves... they ate gnomes (and only gnomes). since the gnomes were killed off, thri-kreen evolution dictated that the thri-kreen loose the abdomen and the ability to digest any food. they now feed and on the hopes and dreams of children. the DSCS also says you are not allowed to hourse-rule gnomes into existance without filling out the following form:
You are the man! I love you! Muhahahahaha
i try to entertain... glad you liked it...
MAybe this particular thri keen lost its abdomen in combat and can't balanc himself that why he need to ride a kank.
And why do we think he is riding it? the way i see it the thri keen ambushed the kank and jumped on its back to kill it and eat it.
if you look closely you'll notice the kank is fitted with what appears to be a bit & briddle and stirrups along with some kind of chest harness. if you look really closely (between the thri-kreen's leg and the middle leg of the kank you'll notice a saddle... on the kank's abdomen... maybe kanks eat thri-kreen now...
the linked pic here doesn't show it too well, but if you enlarge the picture you'll be able to see much more detail.
Its about balance guys... we cant have have large size kreen players quad weilding and makeing their own spit crystal weapons killing everything makeing the other players feel insignificant and takeing the fun out of the game.
THE END
Thri-kreen were never Large. They have always been Medium, ever since their first published appearance in 1983's Monster Manual II.
Thri-kreen were never Large. They have always been Medium, ever since their first published appearance in 1983's Monster Manual II.
As per the Monstrous Compendium Appendix II: Terrors Beyond Tyr Thri-Kreen are listed as Large creatures. In the Dark Sun setting they are 7 feet tall and 11 feet long. They were large creatures in that setting, even described as such in the Thri-Kreen of Athas book.
people who play elves or thrikreen can choose not to ride Kanks! AND they can do it for the same reasons their players find the picture distasteful. The Elf will explain to his friends that riding a beast is a sign of weekness: in elf culture it is something only the old or infirm would ever do. But don't worry, he doesn't judge you TOO much for it...you weaklings
Similiar response for the TK