How about that.
UPDATE:
please and thank you.
I have been wanting to play this for years, only ever read one of the novel trilogies but loved the world concept.
Enter the Thri-Kreen and Half Giant. :D
Hey, at least with my DDi subscription, I will be able to get all the info free, without buying the books. Woot.
Well thats how I see it.
We'll see.
WotC you are spoiling me.
It's going to be a long year's wait.
Dark Sun as I remember it was very different from other game worlds. Equipment did not matter nearly as much as it did in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, or Eberron, etc. I will be very interested to see if the new Dark Sun keeps that low fantasy gritty feel wherein players gradually do more and more heinous things just to get enough drinking water, exult over gaining a normal steel blade, and pray to sorceror-kings because there are no gods to listen.
It's going to be a long year's wait.
Yup!
I will be interesting to see if the Metal power nature of Athus will remain, or is the planes-shifting disaster of FR will be used to elliminate the problem.
It is nice to think that they planned for this in the first place with 4th ED Armor Class.
Also he could sunder and disarm like crazy, sadly the DM often put us up against unarmed monsters.
Dark Sun as I remember it was very different from other game worlds. Equipment did not matter nearly as much as it did in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, or Eberron, etc. I will be very interested to see if the new Dark Sun keeps that low fantasy gritty feel wherein players gradually do more and more heinous things just to get enough drinking water, exult over gaining a normal steel blade, and pray to sorceror-kings because there are no gods to listen.
It's going to be a long year's wait.
My thoughts exactly, hope they don't completely change what makes it a good setting just to make it 4e.
My thoughts exactly, hope they don't completely change what makes it a good setting just to make it 4e.
Given the discussion about how arcane magic still drains the lifeforce from the surrounding environment, I think they are still going for that grim and gritty (with literal grit!) feel of Darksun.
At least, I really hope so. Can't wait to see what (I speculate will be) a Defiler paragon path looks like
Given the discussion about how arcane magic still drains the lifeforce from the surrounding environment, I think they are still going for that grim and gritty (with literal grit!) feel of Darksun.
At least, I really hope so. Can't wait to see what (I speculate will be) a Defiler paragon path looks like
I'm quite curious about this as well. Having a mechanic that JUST affected arcane magic worked in 2e because there were so many things that magic could do that fighters couldn't.
In 4E, it's more like "don't use your arcane power to slow the ogre, you'll kill my tomato plant. Have Jim use his warlord power to slow the ogre instead."
How is 4E going to deal with a mechanic that would seem, based on history and 'flavor/fluff' description to penalize a single power source while not affecting the others?
If they're not careful, the only real effect is going to be "Jim, don't play a swordmage. Play a warden. It's the same role and you don't have 'taint'."
It feels good to have months of "it'll be Dark Sun for the following reasons..." vindicated.
This will be the one I get both books for!
Canibal Halfings, Thri-Kreen, and Half giants...Oh My!
Just the thought of roving cannibal halflings is so profoundly disturbing... I really can't wait. Dark sun was a little before my time, but I'm really looking forward to being able to play it in 4e. Now I'll just have to bide my time and wait for the inevitable Spelljammer revival! ...Maybe thats not for the best, but I'd definitely play it!
Awesome, but the cover needs more Brom. It just ain't Dark Sun without Brom.
Hear hear! ;)
I'm totally stoked for this CS.
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omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg
Oh, and for those complaining about there not being any 3.5E updates for Dark Sun, you should check out The Burnt World of Athas. It's the official Dark Sun website, is recognized by WotC, and it has rules updates available for free. Its material should be just as valid as the Sovereign Press material published for Dragonlance 3E.
I hope that we'll start seeing Dark Sun critters in the new few miniature releases. Thri-kreen, muls, things like that.
Keep hoping, I'm still waiting for there to be more than one dragonborn
Keep hoping, I'm still waiting for there to be more than one dragonborn
i'm sorry, i do not understand what you are saying. what sort of brain malfunction makes a person think about dragonborn WHEN DARK SUN IS BEING RELEASED!
Do you think it'll get the 4E Forgotten Realms treatment or the 4E Eberron treatment?
Since the article states an intent to make it as close as possible to the 2E boxed set, I would go with a 4E Eberron treatment.
I love DarkSun. DarkSun and Planescape. Planescape (the parts I like) have been integrated into 4e already, so this is just icing on the cake!
My thoughts exactly!
Since the article states an intent to make it as close as possible to the 2E boxed set, I would go with a 4E Eberron treatment.
Though in a way it also isn't. In that Eberron 4e simply sticks with the current events of the last edition of Eberron, not going forward, back or what have you. While Dark Sun is actually retreating in time and getting rid of the stuff that happened in Revised.
Keep hoping, I'm still waiting for there to be more than one dragonborn
Didn't they release 4 over the first 2 sets for 4E?
i'm sorry, i do not understand what you are saying. what sort of brain malfunction makes a person think about dragonborn WHEN DARK SUN IS BEING RELEASED!
What if I want to play a Dragonborn IN Dark Sun? The only dragonborn mini I've seen is one in full-plate. How common is plate in Dark Sun?
Dragonborn Sorceror in Dark Sun seems like a deliciously tempting idea
Do you think it'll get the 4E Forgotten Realms treatment or the 4E Eberron treatment?
I think with it being a later release they're going to be a lot more laissez faire about getting "everything" to fit. FR got to be the first updated setting, so it also got to be the one that had to include everything.
That said, I'm pretty sure they'll go with a "here's where stuff might be from" and leave it to the DM to figure out the details. I doubt they'll have a "the following stuff doesn't exist, so don't even think about playing it..." sidebar.
Didn't they release 4 over the first 2 sets for 4E?
I've only ever seen 1
What if I want to play a Dragonborn IN Dark Sun? The only dragonborn mini I've seen is one in full-plate. How common is plate in Dark Sun?
Dragonborn Sorceror in Dark Sun seems like a deliciously tempting idea
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
One of the classic things about dark sun was magic drew power from the life force around you. I wonder how they are going to work that mechanic in.
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
That's obviously going to have to change for 4E, hard to take a PHB1 race and say "No, not yours"
I've only ever seen 1
Deamond web and Against the Giants both contain 2 Dragonborn figures (all rares, one is winged so with racial PP) and there is also on in PHB heroes Series 1 and1 in PHB heroes series 2.
All you have ever seen is not all that there is, if you want to make an all that there is claim please check the product/set lists as the mini sets have visual spoilers.
I've only ever seen 1
There is a male dragonborn on this page, a female dragonborn here, a dragonborn paladin here, and two dragonborn here.
I've only ever seen 1
I rmember the Dragonborn Myrmidon and the Dragonborn Defender. There's also at least one coming out in the Martial Heroes 3 set.
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
They will probably just be the spawn of the sorcerer kings (or whatever the were called), since they were all trying to turn themselves into dragons IIRC.
That's obviously going to have to change for 4E, hard to take a PHB1 race and say "No, not yours"
No, it's not hard.
Check it out.
No, not yours.
Didn't even take 5 syllables.
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
Uh...
That's obviously going to have to change for 4E, hard to take a PHB1 race and say "No, not yours"
I agree here, Forgotten Realms and Eberron didn't have Dragonborn, yet they were worked into the setting. I think Dragonborn can be worked into DarkSun too. Just like Tieflings, and Deva, and Goliath.
Uh...
I agree here, Forgotten Realms and Eberron didn't have Dragonborn, yet they were worked into the setting. I think Dragonborn can be worked into DarkSun too. Just like Tieflings, and Deva, and Goliath.
Here here. Who says you can't play Dragonborn in Dark Sun. More power to the imaginative players.
article of awesomeness
Created by popular demand, this requested setting was saved specifically for now in 4th Edition, and will also feature new novels set in the world of Athas. As a follow-up to the initial announcement, we spoke with R&D's James Wyatt regarding the release of Dark Sun.
Wizards of the Coast: Let's start with the basics. Can you tell us about the process for determining this next campaign setting? What niche were you looking to fill, how were various settings nominated and critiqued, and what ultimately led you to Dark Sun?
James Wyatt: With Bill Slavicsek as the head of the department and Rich Baker as one of our senior designers, there was really not a lot of question about whether we’d do Dark Sun, just a question of when. Both Bill and Rich worked on Dark Sun among their very first projects at TSR back in the days of 2nd Edition A D&D, and both of them have been eager to revive the setting for years.
I think what made 2010 the right time for Dark Sun was a combination of factors. First, it’s going to utterly rock under the 4th Edition rules. Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world. Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.
Wizards of the Coast: For those players who may never have played Dark Sun in its earlier inception, can you give us a rundown of this world? How would you describe Dark Sun encapsulated, and what sets it uniquely apart from other settings?
James Wyatt:Dark Sun is a sort of post-apocalyptic fantasy, a world that’s been blasted and ravaged by out-of-control magic. The arcane magic of the world draws its power from the life force of things around it, and if it’s not wielded carefully, it can transform nearby plant life into ash and drain other living creatures of their vitality. That’s why the world is a desert, its civilizations concentrated in a handful of city-states ruled by evil sorcerer-kings and its wilderness haunted by marauding nomadic bands.
The gods of the setting are absent or dead, replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials. Shamans and other primal characters draw on the forces of sun, sand, wind, and precious rain. Wizards practice their magic in secret or openly serve the sorcerer-kings. And psionic power is more common than on other worlds -- which is handy, since this setting will come out a few months after Player’s Handbook 3, which introduces the psionic power source.
Wizards of the Coast: How is Dark Sun being conceptualized for 4th Edition? What is being retained about the setting, and what might be added, altered, or deleted? Are there significant events in store, such as with Forgotten Realms and the Spellplague, or a broader retcon of the entire setting?
James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.
Wizards of the Coast: Are there elements of Dark Sun that you determined would be especially suited for the 4th Edition rule set? Conversely, are there elements of the setting that you understand will be a challenge to incorporate into 4E?
James Wyatt: As I mentioned before, I think the overall tone of Dark Sun makes it fit really well in the 4th Edition environment. In many ways, it’s really a perfect fit. Even the idea that characters might wear less armor or rely less on gear in general is easy to implement in the current rules set.
Wizards of the Coast: Can you give us a hint of what kinds of challenges and monsters unique to this setting will be in store for adventuring parties?
James Wyatt: Well, I can tell you for one thing that Rich and his team worked hard to make sure Dark Sun continued to feel like a place where the most dangerous enemy you face might be the world itself. It’s a brutal, harsh environment, and if that’s the kind of game you want to play, you’ll have ways to make survival beyond the walls of the city-states an adventure in itself. Beyond that -- nomadic elf raiders, cannibal halflings, hunting packs of thri-kreen, the deadly sorcerer-kings and their templars, braxats, silt wyrms, The Dragon …. Oh, and I’m told that Rich managed to make the belgoi’s game mechanics actually work well in the game.
Wizards of the Coast: And for the parties themselves, can you tell us what we might look forward to with Dark Sun character concepts and designs? How will, say, a Dark Sun fighter stand apart from a Forgotten Realms or Eberron fighter?
James Wyatt: One of the things I’m most excited about with the new setting addresses this question, but I don’t want to talk too much about it. Suffice it to say, at this point, that a Dark Sun fighter has a whole set of options available to him that aren’t (yet) available to other D&D characters. These options will add a whole new dimension to Dark Sun player characters, both in terms of what they can do within the rules of the game and in terms of fleshing them out as people in the world.
Created by popular demand, this requested setting was saved specifically for now in 4th Edition, and will also feature new novels set in the world of Athas. As a follow-up to the initial announcement, we spoke with R&D's James Wyatt regarding the release of Dark Sun.
Wizards of the Coast: Let's start with the basics. Can you tell us about the process for determining this next campaign setting? What niche were you looking to fill, how were various settings nominated and critiqued, and what ultimately led you to Dark Sun?
James Wyatt: With Bill Slavicsek as the head of the department and Rich Baker as one of our senior designers, there was really not a lot of question about whether we’d do Dark Sun, just a question of when. Both Bill and Rich worked on Dark Sun among their very first projects at TSR back in the days of 2nd Edition A D&D, and both of them have been eager to revive the setting for years.
I think what made 2010 the right time for Dark Sun was a combination of factors. First, it’s going to utterly rock under the 4th Edition rules. Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world. Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.
Wizards of the Coast: For those players who may never have played Dark Sun in its earlier inception, can you give us a rundown of this world? How would you describe Dark Sun encapsulated, and what sets it uniquely apart from other settings?
James Wyatt:Dark Sun is a sort of post-apocalyptic fantasy, a world that’s been blasted and ravaged by out-of-control magic. The arcane magic of the world draws its power from the life force of things around it, and if it’s not wielded carefully, it can transform nearby plant life into ash and drain other living creatures of their vitality. That’s why the world is a desert, its civilizations concentrated in a handful of city-states ruled by evil sorcerer-kings and its wilderness haunted by marauding nomadic bands.
The gods of the setting are absent or dead, replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials. Shamans and other primal characters draw on the forces of sun, sand, wind, and precious rain. Wizards practice their magic in secret or openly serve the sorcerer-kings. And psionic power is more common than on other worlds -- which is handy, since this setting will come out a few months after Player’s Handbook 3, which introduces the psionic power source.
Wizards of the Coast: How is Dark Sun being conceptualized for 4th Edition? What is being retained about the setting, and what might be added, altered, or deleted? Are there significant events in store, such as with Forgotten Realms and the Spellplague, or a broader retcon of the entire setting?
James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.
Wizards of the Coast: Are there elements of Dark Sun that you determined would be especially suited for the 4th Edition rule set? Conversely, are there elements of the setting that you understand will be a challenge to incorporate into 4E?
James Wyatt: As I mentioned before, I think the overall tone of Dark Sun makes it fit really well in the 4th Edition environment. In many ways, it’s really a perfect fit. Even the idea that characters might wear less armor or rely less on gear in general is easy to implement in the current rules set.
Wizards of the Coast: Can you give us a hint of what kinds of challenges and monsters unique to this setting will be in store for adventuring parties?
James Wyatt: Well, I can tell you for one thing that Rich and his team worked hard to make sure Dark Sun continued to feel like a place where the most dangerous enemy you face might be the world itself. It’s a brutal, harsh environment, and if that’s the kind of game you want to play, you’ll have ways to make survival beyond the walls of the city-states an adventure in itself. Beyond that -- nomadic elf raiders, cannibal halflings, hunting packs of thri-kreen, the deadly sorcerer-kings and their templars, braxats, silt wyrms, The Dragon …. Oh, and I’m told that Rich managed to make the belgoi’s game mechanics actually work well in the game.
Wizards of the Coast: And for the parties themselves, can you tell us what we might look forward to with Dark Sun character concepts and designs? How will, say, a Dark Sun fighter stand apart from a Forgotten Realms or Eberron fighter?
James Wyatt: One of the things I’m most excited about with the new setting addresses this question, but I don’t want to talk too much about it. Suffice it to say, at this point, that a Dark Sun fighter has a whole set of options available to him that aren’t (yet) available to other D&D characters. These options will add a whole new dimension to Dark Sun player characters, both in terms of what they can do within the rules of the game and in terms of fleshing them out as people in the world.
Dragonborn simply would not fit in the setting, the only beings that are draconic in nature are epic level defiler's.
Deva's would also not fit in the setting because they are divine beings and an implement of their god. This does not work on Athus, because there are no gods. Rajaat is the closest thing to a god, and he's not exactly spawning any devas.
Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with.
Goliaths would be ok, even if they weren't reflavored as Half-Giants, who knows what the wild wastes have spawned.
Why is that every race must fit on every world, anyway?
Goliaths might just be renamed half-giants.
Historically there's been nothing like shifters or devas on Athas, but I think it's possible to find analogs for a lot of the existing races.
In addition, 4e's change in the divine power source, turning it from something based on devotion or idealism into something based on religious ritual, makes including divine characters something that doesn't feel nearly as jarring. Now instead of justifying a paladin by saying "he believes in the power of good" you can say he comes from a tribe that holds the secret of forgotten rites that can grant those who endure them great power. Said paladins might not know a thing about the now absent god and wouldn't ever think to pray, but 4e's presentation on divine power makes that perfectly okay.
I think 4e will handle Athas quite well, though there will be a little bending necessary.
*happy dance*
*happy dance*
Heck, yeah! And the art looks friggin' awesome (so far)!
Looks like they're setting it at the same spot as the 2E setting, just before the Prism Pentad, with the events is said books as one possible outcome of the near future.
I can deal with that. :D
.
I think 4e will handle Athas quite well, though there will be a little bending necessary.
This.
Putting a serious twist on familiar races is one of the things that Dark Sun is all about. Yeah, they might not have had scertain 4e races "back in the day" but I don't see any reason a moderately clever game designer couldn't make versions of those races that fit the setting perfectly and come up with perfectly acceptable reasons for those races being there.
You don't need of adopt the Points of Light origins for the races. Darksun is chock-full of weird twisted abominations of creatures spawned form a dying magic-blighted landscape. Any setting that can harbor intelligent insectoids should be able to harbor warforged, devas and dragonborn.
I sincerly hope that this is not done.
Dragonborn simply would not fit in the setting, the only beings that are draconic in nature are epic level defiler's.
Deva's would also not fit in the setting because they are divine beings and an implement of their god. This does not work on Athus, because there are no gods. Rajaat is the closest thing to a god, and he's not exactly spawning any devas.
Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with.
Goliaths would be ok, even if they weren't reflavored as Half-Giants, who knows what the wild wastes have spawned.
Why is that every race must fit on every world, anyway?
Dragonborn could have their reptilian nature emphasized and be hard-core deep-desert creatures. Little need for water and all that. They could claim relationship to the Dragon, but actually have none.
Tieflings could be weirdly spawned out in the wastes as easily as Goliaths, or cursed by the Dragon, or they could claim that there was a divine creature that cursed them long ago. Would it be true? Who cares? They could be obscurely proud of it.
Devas would be the toughest to fit, in my opinion. But then, why explain them? Just say that any PC Deva is likely the only one in the world and they're as unlikely to know where they're from as everybody else is.
Warforged would also likely be made without metal hides, but chitin is probably reasonable enough.
As for why we need to fit all the races in, it's because it's more fun to say yes and come up with a cool explanation. I mean, I played a Warforged in Ravenloft. It was the unique creation of a necromancer (or maybe the necromancer only claimed to have created it; my character would never have known). I left it up to the DM.
I'd reserve judgement until you see what cool stuff the designers have come up with. Maybe it'll be better than you could have imagined. Maybe it'll suck, but then you get the fun job of coming up with something better.
Devas as the recently freed spirits from prior ages confined to a physical form?
OMFG. Awesome. Reminds me of Zelazny's "Lord of Light," which featured "demons" that were actually the former rulers of a new (to humans, anyway) world that had abandoned their bodies in a quest for immortality. They then began to miss having physical form, and would possess humans to enjoy physical pleasures.
Great idea on Devas. They don't have to be so entirely devoted to Good that way, also. Just ancient spirits that have the capability to reform a new body when they die, though their memories are damaged from the process.
Warforged would also likely be made without metal hides, but chitin is probably reasonable enough.
Chitinous warforged?! I am totally sold! Even if they don't use this idea in 4e Darksun, I will.
*looks at title, faints from awesome*
Dragonborn simply would not fit in the setting, the only beings that are draconic in nature are epic level defiler's.
In a world of psychic praying mantis men you can't concieve that the draconic sorcerer kings haven't bred some special servants?
Deva's would also not fit in the setting because they are divine beings and an implement of their god. This does not work on Athus, because there are no gods. Rajaat is the closest thing to a god, and he's not exactly spawning any devas..
Perhaps the servants of the former gods of Athas didn't all follow their masters to oblivion.
Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with..
Yeah ... i have a hard time picturing the birth of someone tainted by use of fel magics in a setting like Dark Sun. Good call.
Goliaths would be ok, even if they weren't reflavored as Half-Giants, who knows what the wild wastes have spawned..
Because the existing fluff of any given race is the only potential fluff. So Athasian haflings will be cajun traders in riverboats and elves will live in the woods and commune with the trees . . .
Why is that every race must fit on every world, anyway?
They don't have to, but to exclude them due to incompatiblity with their default fluff is just a failure in imagination.
I sincerly hope that this is not done.
Dragonborn simply would not fit in the setting, the only beings that are draconic in nature are epic level defiler's.
The Dragon is an epic level defiler, who says there isn't a city state of Dragonborn still surviving from ancient verdant Athas. Maybe beyond the Verdant plains of the far east.
Deva's would also not fit in the setting because they are divine beings and an implement of their god. This does not work on Athus, because there are no gods. Rajaat is the closest thing to a god, and he's not exactly spawning any devas.
Devas are the easiest and coolest to fit in Dark Sun. Devas are immortals who made powerful pacts with powerful primals to live mortal lives in the world. The gods are gone and dead, but devas still roam Athas, living life after life. I would call them the fallen.
Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with.
A lost city State from across the Dune Sea, who's ancestors made dark pact long ago in the ancient verdant Athas.
Goliaths would be ok, even if they weren't reflavored as Half-Giants, who knows what the wild wastes have spawned.
Indeed who knows what the wild wastes have spawned. Gnome gypsies riding the wastes on giant beetle fortressess, and Eladrin living high above on verdant earthmotes floating above the skies of Athas
Why is that every race must fit on every world, anyway?
No reason. I see no reason to limit my imagination as well.
Thanks! In exchange, you just blew my mind with this idea:
Chitinous warforged?! I am totally sold! Even if they don't use this idea in 4e Darksun, I will.
I have a wooden and stone warforged warden in LFR, who is over 1,000 years old, made by ancient druids.
I could easily see chitinous warforged, obsidian warforged from the Green Age who run on gathered, stored and focused psionic power, stone constructs made by a specific being, extremely ancient bio-constructed Blue Age beings, and much more.
Tieflings could have simply made a pact with powerful beings from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
Genasi might simply be the descendants of people who mated with, magically joined with, or otherwise combined themselves with elemental beings.
Dragonborn being dray is perfectly workable. Some dray might leave Dregoth's service to wander the world (and who knows just how long he's been making them), and the undead dragon-king is certainly one to experiment often.
Shadar-kai might be natives of the Obsidian Wastes who have learned how to live in that horrible area.
And so on, and so forth. :D
Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with.
As the child of a tiefling and a human is always a tiefling, it could simply be that tieflings date from before the defilement of Athas. They could have been created before contact with other planes was lost. Kind of like the gith.
@Redcliff, I had forgotten about the Dray, and I agree with you on how easy it would be to make the dragonborn fill their role. I would be interested to see a refluffed necromantic-flavored dragonborn.
As far as the refluffing of races is concerned, naturally I accept this will be done, and must be done. Even the human must be refluffed for Athas, and the dwarf will certainly have to be changed as well. However, I feel there are limits to how far this can be done, due to the inclusion of certain feats that have been created specifically for select races.
All of this said, I can always pick and choose what elements I like and dislike when the book comes out. If other people would like to play in a Dark Sun world inhabited by Teiflings and Devas, then more power to them. I suppose I will have to wait and see what the designers do.
It is not a matter of not being able to concieve of a way to explain a particular race, but more a matter of not be willing to deviate too far from a point of reference. Yes, there are always ways to come up with a way to explain somethings existance, but the more additional elements are brought in, the more dilutive the original stock becomes. I enjoy the feel, theme, look, and history of Athas and Dark Sun, and because of this I would not like to see the addition of devas, teiflings, or eladrin(fey in general, tbh).
@Redcliff, I had forgotten about the Dray, and I agree with you on how easy it would be to make the dragonborn fill their role. I would be interested to see a refluffed necromantic-flavored dragonborn.
As far as the refluffing of races is concerned, naturally I accept this will be done, and must be done. Even the human must be refluffed for Athas, and the dwarf will certainly have to be changed as well. However, I feel there are limits to how far this can be done, due to the inclusion of certain feats that have been created specifically for select races.
All of this said, I can always pick and choose what elements I like and dislike when the book comes out. If other people would like to play in a Dark Sun world inhabited by Teiflings and Devas, then more power to them. I suppose I will have to wait and see what the designers do.
How about this, then: WotC will (guaranteed) put in suggestions on how to fit published races into Athas, at the very least. Those of us that like them, use them. In fact, isn't that what they suggested with Warforged in the Dragon article about them? Any origin can be agreed on, even if it means the PC is unique.
And whenever you run a Dark Sun game, they won't be allowed. Whenever I run one, they will.
...
All of this said, I can always pick and choose what elements I like and dislike when the book comes out. If other people would like to play in a Dark Sun world inhabited by Teiflings and Devas, then more power to them. I suppose I will have to wait and see what the designers do.
I would wait and see, I can see both races (especially the Deva) in the Dark Sun Campaign without diluting the gritty feel of the setting. But hey, I'm sure you have the imagination to drop what you don't like from your own Dark Sun campaign if you wish, I mean you do play DnD right.;)
There are great possibilities with this one.
Which is quite possibly the best part of the announcement?
Somebody needs to get one of my old posts on this... I swear I mentioned that they were going to have to do a history reset to make it good!
I could not agree with you more.
but more a matter of not be willing to deviate too far from a point of reference.
The the majority of players, this will be their first exposure to Dark Sun. And for most of us who have played it before, we can roll with the few punches that a 4e Dark Sun would likely make. And for those who can't...
In addition, 4e's change in the divine power source, turning it from something based on devotion or idealism into something based on religious ritual, makes including divine characters something that doesn't feel nearly as jarring. Now instead of justifying a paladin by saying "he believes in the power of good" you can say he comes from a tribe that holds the secret of forgotten rites that can grant those who endure them great power. Said paladins might not know a thing about the now absent god and wouldn't ever think to pray, but 4e's presentation on divine power makes that perfectly okay.
Along the same lines, you don't necessarily need to have actual gods in order to have divine characters. Eberron has a truckload of faiths without gods: The Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Spirits of the Past, the Undying Court, the Path of Light, the following of the Lord of Blades, the Cults of the Dragon Below. If this can work, then divine characters can very well work in Dark Sun.
Same with the perserver and defiler, will they be new classess or wizard/ sorcerer build, or will there be a new game mechanic for Dark Sun arcane magic?
Just as long as they don't bring back tons of Baxa. His art makes me want to punch myself in the face. The Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium addition was an affront to my soul.
Here are my contributions to this awesome setting:
Tieflings - Who said tieflings are only the by-products of pacts made with fiends? I have a tiefling that was formerly human until prolonged exposure to fiendish energy and lessons turned her into what she is now.
Devas - The gods of Athas aren't dead. They live on as devas; each deva housing the dregs of divine essence. Their ageless wisdom may stem from vague memories of divinity. The rakshasas in turn would be the remnants of evil deities. Kind of like quasi-proxies or avatars.
I think that those who say some of the 4e races are not compatible with Dark Sun are just lacking imagination and/or just plain stubborn. (Or their brains are just as dead and dry as Athas.)
Why, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to pay me an insult.
As many people here have proven, you can totally fit races such as dragonborn, etc into any world if you're just willing to give the benefit of the doubt and try to find/adapt niches..
Orly?
Fit them into Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age.
Why, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to pay me an insult.
Orly?
Fit them into Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age.
Descendants of the serpent people.
Fit them into Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age.
Tiefilings would actually fit into the hyborian age quite nicely, flavor wise...
From my point of view, I see a new place in Dark Sun for tiefling and dragonborn. I'm a little more touchy about Eladrin. I could see some of the tribes of elves from the old 2e Dark Sun being turned into Eladrin tribes, with others remaining as Elf tribes. However I think I would be a little turned off if Eladrin were introduced as a brand new race... but who knows! I'm willing to see what they come up with before I pass a judgement.
Gnomes, half-orcs, devas, and the like, really better not show up though. :P
So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.
Kinda makes me happy, too. I don't really like how the various setting metaplots have gone, but converting old source material to new mechanics is kinda painful.
Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible
Can I dare hope that this means they're going to go back to the beginning of the setting and jettison the ruinous metaplot?
EDIT: Someone suggested Templar for the new class. That name has a lot of Divine Power Source baggage, though. I'd rather have an Elemental power source class, myself, and put the Templar as a light-armored Divine Defender in PHB3.
I think that those who say some of the 4e races are not compatible with Dark Sun are just lacking imagination and/or just plain stubborn. (Or their brains are just as dead and dry as Athas.)
Boooo!!! You could make your point with out the insults.
Devas - The gods of Athas aren't dead. They live on as devas; each deva housing the dregs of divine essence. Their ageless wisdom may stem from vague memories of divinity. The rakshasas in turn would be the remnants of evil deities. Kind of like quasi-proxies or avatars.
Hurray!!!
what a grea and imaginative Idea!Can I dare hope that this means they're going to go back to the beginning of the setting and jettison the ruinous metaplot?
I'd say so, given:
So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.
Emphasis on the "could", so the 4e Dark Sun takes place prior to the novels, which means beginning of the setting.
I kinda don't want them to keep the Deva tied to gods. Part of the fun with Dark Sun is the idea that the gods are gone/dead/never existed and the mortal races have to sort things out for themselves.
Boooo!!! You could make your point with out the insults.
And it's an insult to me for people to state that they are not willing to go along with change without the effort of trying to see if the changes can make sense or not. At last give reasons for why those changes won't make ANY sense at all.
Hurray!!!
It is, isn't it? I surprised myself with how great it was of an idea. Go me.
Anyways, as for the Hyborian Age, elibus, why don't you check out Marvel comics? They somehow managed to fit Spider-man and X-Men into it, so why not D&D. Glad to see dopple and cyber jump on the bandwagon and give examples of how certain races can exist in Conanverse. I mean, they have wizards and clerics and deities! pfft.
I'd say so, given:
Emphasis on the "could", so the 4e Dark Sun takes place prior to the novels, which means beginning of the setting.
That's the most I could have asked for. And it seems much easier to do a reboot in Dark Sun than Dragonlance, so I'm doubly glad that it's Dark Sun.
... even so, you all have fun. Dark Sun has always been the most depressing, Grinding, and most boring setting I've ever participated in. Not that the world doesn't have some nice things in it, mind you, but if I have one more "You are all slaves..." opening line again, characters will die...
Random ponderings on what to expect....
Will half-giants gain a similar feature to the half-elf's dilettante feature? They choose an at-will power of one of their party members each day and can use it as an encounter power?
Will each character be able to choose a psionic at-will to use as an encounter power or will they come up with a set suite of powers only for dark sun?
Will the designers use the Pristine Tower to explain the non-canon races? (deva, tiefling, etc?)
Will the elemental power source debut in PH3 alongside psionics? Seems like it would be beneficial to have that in place beforehand.
Will there be a mechanic for making a PC for a "new race"? You could always repurpose an existing class or create one from scratch, but I'd love to see some guidelines for keeping things balanced.
Speaking of balance...dark sun characters were much heartier than those of other settings. Will this continue? I hope so!
That's all for now. Gotta go reread that announcement. Thank you WotC!!!
And it's an insult to me for people to state that they are not willing to go along with change without the effort of trying to see if the changes can make sense or not. At last give reasons for why those changes won't make ANY sense at all.
Disagreement and a lack of willingness to accept change is not a insult, even if youfeel it's wrong. Calling someone brain dead as Athas is an insult.
You offer a poor excuse for insulting someone.
It is, isn't it? I surprised myself with how great it was of an idea. Go me.
Go You
That is all, continue with the debate.
I wish I could say this was a surprise, but with the Psionic's Handbook out next year, no, it's not.
... even so, you all have fun. Dark Sun has always been the most depressing, Grinding, and most boring setting I've ever participated in. Not that the world doesn't have some nice things in it, mind you, but if I have one more "You are all slaves..." opening line again, characters will die...
Wow bummer. All the Dark Sun campaigns I played in were really fun (because of a great Dm), never once did we start out as slaves.
I enjoy the feel, theme, look, and history of Athas and Dark Sun, and because of this I would not like to see the addition of devas, teiflings, or eladrin(fey in general, tbh).
So said FR and Eberron fans, yet they were not spared. Given the 4e marketing scheme *sorry* philosophy I don't see them suddenly sparing Athas
So said FR and Eberron fans, yet they were not spared. Given the 4e marketing scheme *sorry* philosophy I don't see them suddenly sparing Athas
Don't use Eberron, and speak for us Eberron fans, with your anti-4e (or anti-4e settings) diatribe. The vast majority of Eberrons fans are VERY happy with the way Eberron was handled.
Don't use Eberron, and speak for us Eberron fans, with your anti-4e (or anti-4e settings) diatribe. The vast majority of Eberrons fans are VERY happy with the way Eberron was handled.
Doesn't change the fact that anything was cramped into Eberron as it was into FR and this is a relevant fact for looking ahead to what to expect for Dark Sun.
Whether it's done good or bad is irrelevant to the question of whether it's done at all.
Will the designers use the Pristine Tower to explain the non-canon races? (deva, tiefling, etc?)
I wouldn't be surprised to see the non-canon Dark Sun races getting completely cut out. It would be like a rewrite of Dragonlance to allow the Dragonborn to have non-Draconian ancestry. After all, isn't Athas completely inaccessable except from the elemental planes, and even then only thru a hook or bubble?
Provided that hooks and bubbles still existed when Dark Sun was published. They were very much late 1e contrivances.
Can I dare hope that this means they're going to go back to the beginning of the setting and jettison the ruinous metaplot?
The metaplot was about as ruinous as a Care Bear trying to destroy a city.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the non-canon Dark Sun races getting completely cut out.
I would be utterly surprised to see PHB1 races being excluded, and I fully expect to see PHB2, FR, and Eberron races given the "X Race in Dark Sun" sidebar treatment. Everything is Core. And the "completely inaccessible" mumbo jumbo was just protectionism from the ever-grasping claws of Planescape and Spelljammer.
The metaplot was about as ruinous as a Care Bear trying to destroy a city.
I think you're discounting the Care Bear Stare as a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
Will the elemental power source debut in PH3 alongside psionics? Seems like it would be beneficial to have that in place beforehand.
No, PHB3 is Psionics, Divine, Primal. That was confirmed a few months ago. Elemental probably won't come out til PHB5.
I also hope they will begin to include some Dark Sun figures in future miniature sets. It would be nice to actually have some already on hand when the books release rather than having to wait months or years before having any. I know there probably won't be many made at all but I can still dream. Even a quarterly 8 or 16 figure set dedicated to each campaign setting would be cool.
I would be utterly surprised to see PHB1 races being excluded, and I fully expect to see PHB2, FR, and Eberron races given the "X Race in Dark Sun" sidebar treatment. Everything is Core. And the "completely inaccessible" mumbo jumbo was just protectionism from the ever-grasping claws of Planescape and Spelljammer.
And people messing around with Gate spells. One of the intro modules for Forgotten Realms discusses people Gating PC parties from world to world and ways to get the PCs out alive if you didn't have the next module in the series. Although Gate seems to have pretty much died as a means of travel sometime in mid to late 2e.
And people messing around with Gate spells. One of the intro modules for Forgotten Realms discusses people Gating PC parties from world to world and ways to get the PCs out alive if you didn't have the next module in the series. Although Gate seems to have pretty much died as a means of travel sometime in mid to late 2e.
Athas is/was cut off from other planes though. I'm unclear on whether gates could get there under normal circumstances. If we see Eladrin or whatever in Dark Sun, I expect "Feyspire transport gone horribly wrong" style wankery to get them there.
As far as the Defiler/Preserver stuff, it will likely be one of two things;
1) A feat chain and Paragon Path available to Arcane characters that boosts their damage/effects by tearing up local plants or,
2) Off limits to PCs.
4E focuses on players being the good guys, after all. Defiling may be purely a monster ability.
Athas is/was cut off from other planes though. I'm unclear on whether gates could get there under normal circumstances. If we see Eladrin or whatever in Dark Sun, I expect "Feyspire transport gone horribly wrong" style wankery to get them there.
As far as the Defiler/Preserver stuff, it will likely be one of two things;
1) A feat chain and Paragon Path available to Arcane characters that boosts their damage/effects by tearing up local plants or,
2) Off limits to PCs.
4E focuses on players being the good guys, after all. Defiling may be purely a monster ability.
Eldarin, I could see. There's a couple of ways they could've been native- after all, the Eldarin absorbed numerous elf tribes from 2e and 3e. I'm concerned about Dragonborn and Tieflings.
I disagree about defiling being just an NPC/monster thing. Its going to require some fairly hefty rules to get right, and denying PCs the option of defiling would be kinda bleakh. Hell, one of the Dragon articles I've got from years back is what happens when Preservers go bad.
The general idea is that defiling provided a huge volume of benefits to the spellcaster, at the cost of the environment. A Preserver who found themself with their metaphoric back to the wall could be forced to briefly use defiling magic.
And it also required a modified save for the character to avoid going permanently to the "dark side" and becoming a defiler.
Wouldn't the dragonborn just be Dray?
Yes, or at least they should be.
Tieflings are just another wasteland mutant. Changelings and Kalashtar too, probably. Warforged can be Blue/Green Age relics with chitin/bone/obsidian skin instead of metal.
Preservers/Defilers will probably be one of:
1) Feats
2) Multi-class option ala Spellscar
3) regular Wizard builds
But I do completely and 100% fully expect to see Defilers as a PC option.
Defilers may be monster only, but I think they COULD be PCs. Just like tieflings, defilers may only be "evil-curious". They could walk a fine line between acquiring power and being consumed -literally- by that same power.
Defiling is pretty damn evil, though. That's kind of the point. It's the setting's marker for "this is a bad dude that probably needs killed." And given the shear number of spells that an Arcane PC can pump out in a single encounter, a party doing 4 encounters a day with one or more of them defiling is going to be a massive blight on the face of Athas. This kind of goes against the 4E ethos of PCs being the good guys.
True defilers will probably be relegated to monsters only. I think you're on to something with preservers briefly walking on the dark side. They might handle it similar to artifacts. Maybe preserver magic works better while you have a higher concordance score. Defiler magic may give you a greater boost in damage and/or effect but at the cost of how well the rest of your magic works.
The DMG2 is supposed to have non-material rewards like special training and such in it. I would expect something in that vein to work to define Athasian casters.
And it's important to remember we're not just talking about Wizards here. Wizards were the only Dark Sun arcane casters in 2E, but we've got 6 arcane classes now. All of those are potentially PC defilers if that option exists.
Defiling is pretty damn evil, though. That's kind of the point. It's the setting's marker for "this is a bad dude that probably needs killed." And given the shear number of spells that an Arcane PC can pump out in a single encounter, a party doing 4 encounters a day with one or more of them defiling is going to be a massive blight on the face of Athas. This kind of goes against the 4E ethos of PCs being the good guys.
Alignment is frighteningly relative on Athas. The Sorcerer-kings are selfish and evil to a human of Earth, but what other yardstick do the people of Athas have?
Read some of the Dune prequels and have a look at how the Fremen elders initially saw Pardot Kynes. That's how the average Athasan would see Preservers and Shamans talking about returning Athas to some kind of green state. They'd consider them totally crazy, and probably call the nearest templar. The idea of a green Athas is that alien.
I think Defiling, and Templars will be options that PC's can take up, both of which are evil (or at least evilish).. also we shouldn't forge that the majority of Athasian cities were Lawful Evil under the old rules, and PC's generally had to worry more about survival than being heroes. If they keep with those themes I think there will be space for an evil PC, and the books will support them.
True defilers will probably be relegated to monsters only. I think you're on to something with preservers briefly walking on the dark side. They might handle it similar to artifacts. Maybe preserver magic works better while you have a higher concordance score. Defiler magic may give you a greater boost in damage and/or effect but at the cost of how well the rest of your magic works.
I disagree completely. DS fans love becoming dragons, we need defilers for this. The core wizard with energy draw feats can seperate the two so those with the prereq of level 21 wizard/preserver feat can become avangions and those with level 21 wizard/defiler feat can become dragons.
For the sake of the puppies and stuffed animals crowd, the standard alignment of defilers can be unaligned or alignment can be left out of it completely so it doesn't bother the anti evil folks. As for templars, that easily a PP class in 4e. (the original alignment req for defilers was any non-good, not evil req.)
I believe the SK's alignment will be evil as CE doesn't make sense.
Alignment is frighteningly relative on Athas. The Sorcerer-kings are selfish and evil to a human of Earth, but what other yardstick do the people of Athas have?
Read some of the Dune prequels and have a look at how the Fremen elders initially saw Pardot Kynes. That's how the average Athasan would see Preservers and Shamans talking about returning Athas to some kind of green state. They'd consider them totally crazy, and probably call the nearest templar. The idea of a green Athas is that alien.
Alignment is no more needed on athas than krynn, yet whenever someone mentions alignment needs for dragonlance the whiners come out in full force. Athas isn't about alignment, its about survival. Unaligned is a natural choice for athas as morality doesn't play a part in wanting to survive. If you have water and I don't, you better have better weapons and know how to use them. If you don't you better know how to take mine away from me.
As for how the general public sees wizards, they avoid them in the city states because the templars and SK's kill them outright most times. Preservers are against defilers so they are against the SK's. As for clerics/shamans/druids wanting to heal the planet. As long as they are not working in opposition to a monarch in the city-states, they are welcome as everyone needs food. In deep desert villages and towns, they are welcome as everyone needs food.
People may view a green athas as odd, but no, it would not cause them to call the templars. Most people wouldn't call on the templars without very good cause or a deep pocket for a bribe as the templar are as likely to throw the one calling for them in prison, make them a slave or kill them outright for wasting the templars time.
The Star pact should still work, because it calls upon whatever scary stuff lurks in the void beyond the physical world. Cthulhu and all that. Although it would have to be extremely rare because those powers are coming from something completely beyond Athas. Something that rightly scares the pants off the Sorcerer-kings if they aren't already aware of them and has them quietly praying to Rajaat that it doesn't come down and molest them with its noodly appendages.
(and yes, that is a flying spaghetti monster reference)
Is it evil to enslave 90% or better of a city state? Is it evil to oppose the sorceror kings? What if attacking a caravan supplying a sorceror king causes thousands of slaves to die of thirst? There are so many sliding scales of grey in Athas. Traditional alignment doesn't necessarily have to apply to PCs. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a shining example of selflessness, but there is also room for looking out for numero uno first. Do what you will is all of the law....IF you have the power to back it up.
Dark Sun as I remember it was very different from other game worlds. Equipment did not matter nearly as much as it did in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, or Eberron, etc. I will be very interested to see if the new Dark Sun keeps that low fantasy gritty feel wherein players gradually do more and more heinous things just to get enough drinking water, exult over gaining a normal steel blade, and pray to sorceror-kings because there are no gods to listen.
It's going to be a long year's wait.
Until you run up against something requiring metal to be hit, or a +1 weapon to be hit. Plus the rules for breaking bone, stone and obsidian weapons make weapon breakage a common thing. Equipment in DS is VERY important, its just done differently.;)
Steel is incredibly rare, I mean super duper rare. But iron isn't as rare.:P You can buy iron gear from any merchant house for a large price and any blackmarket carries a nice supply of iron items for a bit cheaper. Iron is only considered super rare when you need to outfit and army. Which the greedy sods in tyr will happly help you with, for a very large amount of cash.
Do you think it'll get the 4E Forgotten Realms treatment or the 4E Eberron treatment?
4e eberron treatment. Leaving the setting mostly untouched aside from required edition changes and additions to the setting.
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
Dragonborn are 4e's version of reflavored Dray. Dregoths personal homies. Easy to include in the setting.
There are no dragonborn, but there are dray, dragon men created by the undead sorcerer king Dregoth, and they look an awful lot like dragonborn. It wouldn't be a stretch to rename them and explain their origins that way.
Goliaths might just be renamed half-giants.
Historically there's been nothing like shifters or devas on Athas, but I think it's possible to find analogs for a lot of the existing races.
In addition, 4e's change in the divine power source, turning it from something based on devotion or idealism into something based on religious ritual, makes including divine characters something that doesn't feel nearly as jarring. Now instead of justifying a paladin by saying "he believes in the power of good" you can say he comes from a tribe that holds the secret of forgotten rites that can grant those who endure them great power. Said paladins might not know a thing about the now absent god and wouldn't ever think to pray, but 4e's presentation on divine power makes that perfectly okay.
I think 4e will handle Athas quite well, though there will be a little bending necessary.
I agree on the dray comment. I agree on the goliath comment. Shifters could easily be an undiscovered race of the hunterlands and Devas could easily be the reincarnated spirits of the gray. As for the divine aspect. I don't support it. I believe DP has almost no place in athas beyond worship of advanced beings (dragons, avangions, elementals, new AB's) and the elemental power source will take its place on athas.
This.
Putting a serious twist on familiar races is one of the things that Dark Sun is all about. Yeah, they might not have had scertain 4e races "back in the day" but I don't see any reason a moderately clever game designer couldn't make versions of those races that fit the setting perfectly and come up with perfectly acceptable reasons for those races being there.
There is not a single 4e race I could not easily fit into darksun. Even the eladrin and they feywild could find a place on athas as a hinterland race or jagged cliffs race.
Will each character be able to choose a psionic at-will to use as an encounter power or will they come up with a set suite of powers only for dark sun?
Will the designers use the Pristine Tower to explain the non-canon races? (deva, tiefling, etc?)
Will the elemental power source debut in PH3 alongside psionics? Seems like it would be beneficial to have that in place beforehand.
Will there be a mechanic for making a PC for a "new race"? You could always repurpose an existing class or create one from scratch, but I'd love to see some guidelines for keeping things balanced.
Speaking of balance...dark sun characters were much heartier than those of other settings. Will this continue? I hope so!
I could see a wild talent feat that gives us bonus PSP's or a single at-will or encounter power.
The pristine tower could be used for many things. Warforged creation as an alternative to relics of the past and tieflings with forgotten elemental powers. Tieflings could also be a result of a corrupted bond with powers of the black.
I think its safe to assume that the DSCG or DSPG will give us some primal and elemental options if the power source books are not out. The PHB3 might also give us some options and also Dragon Magazine.
I doubt we will have any "New race" concepts. Everything will be tied into the history of athas like they did with eberron.
I'm pretty sure that it will be a 1st level starting campaign like all others but there is the chance for a higher starting level. DS used to start at 3rd level in 2e, so its always possible even if unlikely.
So how do Infernal and Fey warlocks work in Dark Sun? Or do they?
The Star pact should still work, because it calls upon whatever scary stuff lurks in the void beyond the physical world. Cthulhu and all that. Although it would have to be extremely rare because those powers are coming from something completely beyond Athas. Something that rightly scares the pants off the Sorcerer-kings if they aren't already aware of them and has them quietly praying to Rajaat that it doesn't come down and molest them with its noodly appendages.
(and yes, that is a flying spaghetti monster reference)
Personally, Infernal i would run as being a pact to a dragon (Dragons are basiacly the infernal creatures of Dark Sun), fey pact you could do one of two ways, they could have a pact with a Spirit of the Land, making it more a nature pact than fey, or the feywild could have a tenuous link with Athas, and as defiling occurs that link gets weaker - this would make fey pact warlock very rare..
Or they could just say, no fey pact no infernal pact, here are some alternatives (a defiling pact and preserving pact maybe?)
With all the Arcane classes it will interesting to see how the handle magic in Athas. I see defiler feats available for those wanting to go that route.
Also will they introduce a new gladiator class or offer a new Athas gladiator fighter build?
I'm guessing there will be more rules and suggestions on running wilderness survival skill challenges.
Another thought is, how will they do psionics in DS4e? As I remember every PC had at least one wild talent psionic power. Will it be multi class feats only? Will they also introduce wild talent feats with access to psionic powers available to those who do not want to multi class?
What does the creative DnD community think?
I know this isn't dark sun canon and will probably take some knocks, but my mind is just wandering all over the place. Just because we haven't seen "shadows" of Athas before, doesn't mean they aren't there. Some version of the Shadowfell could exist in the Umbral. That's not too big of a stretch. They Feywild could also be there. It could even be in the pristine state that Athas used to be. Can you imagine how terrifyingly alien verdant plains and placid lakes would appear to someone who has never seen anything but arid wastelands and muddy seeps?
Hhhhmm.
I like the idea.
Personally, Infernal i would run as being a pact to a dragon (Dragons are basiacly the infernal creatures of Dark Sun), fey pact you could do one of two ways, they could have a pact with a Spirit of the Land, making it more a nature pact than fey, or the feywild could have a tenuous link with Athas, and as defiling occurs that link gets weaker - this would make fey pact warlock very rare..
Or they could just say, no fey pact no infernal pact, here are some alternatives (a defiling pact and preserving pact maybe?)
I could see tieflings being connected (pacts) to the elemental chaos and the black. The feywild could be played upon in the hunterlands and jagged cliffs. Feypacts the the spirits of the land are possible.
I know this isn't dark sun canon and will probably take some knocks, but my mind is just wandering all over the place. Just because we haven't seen "shadows" of Athas before, doesn't mean they aren't there. Some version of the Shadowfell could exist in the Umbral. That's not too big of a stretch. They Feywild could also be there. It could even be in the pristine state that Athas used to be. Can you imagine how terrifyingly alien verdant plains and placid lakes would appear to someone who has never seen anything but arid wastelands and muddy seeps?
I believe the shadowfell will fall into the black, completely. Feywild again can be tied to the hinterlands or the jagged cliffs or even the last sea.
On thing I remember was a defiler advanced in levels faster than a perserver in the old 2e scheme of varied level advancement between the classes.
With all the Arcane classes it will interesting to see how the handle magic in Athas. I see defiler feats available for those wanting to go that route.
Also will they introduce a new gladiator class or offer a new Athas gladiator fighter build?
I'm guessing there will be more rules and suggestions on running wilderness survival skill challenges.
Another thought is, how will they do psionics in DS4e? As I remember every PC had at least one wild talent psionic power. Will it be multi class feats only? Will they also introduce wild talent feats with access to psionic powers available to those who do not want to multi class?
What does the creative DnD community think?
Defilers did gain levels faster, spells also. I doubt we will see this in 4e for balancing issues. Maybe feats will buff dailies. No idea on this. If gladiator isn't out by then, we will probably see the athasian gladiator as a core DS base class or as a fighter PP. Again, I believe wild talents will be handled with a feat.
Again I apologize for wandering from canon... Athas could be a vision of what the "core" world would look like had the primordials come out on top. The gods are destroyed or imprisoned, the primordials are allowed to influence but not outright destroy the world they created, and the primal spirits maintain the status quo. The primordials could be subtly trying to attain there original goal by affecting arcane magic so that it must draw power from living matter, thus causing the created beings to destroy creation itself. This way they uphold the letter of the agreement but still work towards wiping the slate clean. I know this is kinda 4E revisionist history and I'm not advocating it. Just thought it was an interesting spin on a beloved classic.
The primordials could also be the beings trapped in the crystal worlds. It might be a stretch for some but I could totally see it.
I'd also just like to add that half orcs, gnomes and all other cleansing war races could be survivors in hiding. Its not the first time this has been done. Hell, even other races could still exist.
Again I apologize for wandering from canon... Athas could be a vision of what the "core" world would look like had the primordials come out on top. The gods are destroyed or imprisoned, the primordials are allowed to influence but not outright destroy the world they created, and the primal spirits maintain the status quo. The primordials could be subtly trying to attain there original goal by affecting arcane magic so that it must draw power from living matter, thus causing the created beings to destroy creation itself. This way they uphold the letter of the agreement but still work towards wiping the slate clean. I know this is kinda 4E revisionist history and I'm not advocating it. Just thought it was an interesting spin on a beloved classic.
I think it is a great idea. I doubt it will become official 4e canon, but would be a great idea to have a cross setting campaign where Pcs from one world are introduced to another only to find that they are the same world at different times.
I think it is a great idea. I doubt it will become official 4e canon, but would be a great idea to have a cross setting campaign where Pcs from one world are introduced to another only to find that they are the same world at different times.
speaking of cross settings....i would LOVE to see an Athasian domain of dread. a dwarven king who betrayed his people and is now a banshee. a druid who destroyed his own grove. an avagnion in training who used defiler powers to destroy his enemies. the possibilities are endless...and terrifying.
speaking of cross settings....i would LOVE to see an Athasian domain of dread. a dwarven king who betrayed his people and is now a banshee. a druid who destroyed his own grove. an avagnion in training who used defiler powers to destroy his enemies. the possibilities are endless...and terrifying.
Actually this would make a cool DoD, but I think it would lean more towards an evil, powerful dragonking or elemental lord doing very, very horrible things. Bascially all the Darklords were evil to begin with.
The lords of the deadlands would fit this nicely. A domain of black obsidian with undead everywhere and good undead living under the obsidian trying to find a way to end their torment.
Or go with the general idea of a domain of blasted desert dotted by oasis's and small villages, the land is inhabited by savage tribes and mercenary bands and in the center lies a city-state of slaves and cruel templar servants to a vile magic using dragonking.
Then again, no one would make a better Darklord than Rajaat himself.
I love grit... 4E feels a lot like "easy mode" for some of us and I hope Dark Sun can change that.
I'm going to say that Dark sun will do some extra effects based off HP, Surges, or second winds. I have some home brew feats that do the same and it lends more danger (and thus more drama and better "wins" for players) and I can see Dark Sun fighters, mages, all sources getting to do stuff through feats or otherwise with HP, Surges, and such since magic sucks the vitality of the world around them.
I love it!!!
4E feels a lot like "easy mode" for some of us...
You must not be playing the same 4E as me...
I am looking forward to seeing what new gritty options Dark Sun will offer, though.
Dragonborn. This is the easiest race to fit in. Dray exist on DS and they look a bit different but I would just say mechanically they are Dragonborn. On Athas Dragonborn are known as Dray. Easy done.
Eladrin are alot harder. Personally I would ditch them but they're a PHB1 race so odds are theres a lost city of them or something.
For any other race Athas has this place called the Pristine Tower. Long story short the ancient halfling nature masters created it and used it to initiate the rebirth and they turned themselves into elves, humans, dwarves etc. It is still somewhat active and creates new races in the desert wastelands. Basically this means play anything you want with a in game reaosn for it. You may be a unique being though. Genasi fit in very easy as theres a community of elemental like beings out in the Sea of Silt.
A few races shouldn'texist full stop or only as unique creatures from the Pristine Tower (Orcs, Gnomes, Goblins, Kobolds). These races were eliminated to the last member (genocide) in Dark Sun which was part of the reason why the planet is a big dustball.
A Templar could just be a reflavoured Avenger and the divine power source shouldn't exist. Clerics use the elemental power source while other divine users can use various sources. Warlocks should work as there are alot of being you could create pacts with. The Dragon, Sorceror Kings, Spirits of the Land, Rajaat.
Any other questions feel free to ask as I know alot about DS.
You must not be playing the same 4E as me...
I am looking forward to seeing what new gritty options Dark Sun will offer, though.
I typically only play heroic and paragon tier stuff and that tends to be pretty "easy" for us. The fear of death is mostly gone and good tactics (which my group has in droves!) goes a long long long way in most battles. We're also 4e newbies for the most part so I know there is a DMing learning curve. But so far 4e does feel a lot like "easy" mode, 3e is moderate, and 2 e is hard... the base mechanics just lend themselves to this.
the more and more I look at it Dark Sun is the grittier "harder" Dnd I miss... when a few swings of a goblin's axe could spell doom... even a single orc or ogre stike was a danger.... Dark Sun could be all of that and more.
I love the idea of resource management and HP, surges, ect becoming more important.
Terms like "hard," "medium," or "easy" only have meaning when they relate to something that actually matters. When careful PC planning leads to victory, and haphazard charging leads to death, terms like "easy" and "hard" have meaning. When you have to make a choice, sit down and take that 5 minute rest, but risk 'failing' the quest, terms like "easy" and "hard" have meaning. When there is no point to roleplay the early levels at all, because player decision is meaningless, and the game is nothing more than a game of heads or tails, the game is not "hard," its just poorly written.
I find 4e fun from level 1. That's something I never found 2e or 3e to be. But I also don't find it easy. While nobody dies from a single hit at level one, I have found fights against the same sort of critters to be just as threatening. Groups often end up with everyone on the ground and one person standing. Death is a real possibility if the group makes bad decisions. Healing surges tend to be tight. There is nothing "easy" about it.
So, I don't think you are playing the same D&D as me. Either you classify "hard" as "dieing to a random die roll instead of poor decision making," or me and you have had very different experiences in the games we have played. If the later is the case, then the problem is not that 4e is D&D on easy mode, but that your DM is a DM on easy mode. I've watched DMs tear through groups in 4e. It still happens. Hell, last game I played, a character was 1 saving throw away from a death. It was the first game I played with that group, and someone nearly died. In fact, during that game, at one point in time 2 out of 4 of us were down with no methods of healing available to the group anymore. Luck pulled us through the fight. And, over the course of the entire fight, 3 out of 4 of us were down at one point in time or another. I'd call that a hard fight. And if that wasn't bad enough, the game ended with all of us at about half-health, no more encounter or daily powers left in the group, no more healing left to the group, and no time to take a 5 minute rest before getting thrown into the next encounter (it was the cliffhanger ending to our session). To be honest, I am a little scared that one of us is going to die at our next game. That also isn't what I would call easy!
To be honest, I am a little scared that one of us is going to die at our next game. That also isn't what I would call easy!
Sounds like you're almost ready for Dark Sun.
Just add in a little dehydration, some sand and...why is that Halfling looking at me and licking his lips...and you'll be set!
speaking of cross settings....i would LOVE to see an Athasian domain of dread. a dwarven king who betrayed his people and is now a banshee. a druid who destroyed his own grove. an avagnion in training who used defiler powers to destroy his enemies. the possibilities are endless...and terrifying.
There WAS a Ravenloft Athasian domain in the old days. Kalidnay, ruled by Thakok-An, a templar who betrayed her sorcerer-king.
Another thought about dark sun....While 4e does assume that the PCs are points of light in the darkness, Athas may well contain points of grey at best. Athas is a harsh, brutal world and altruism and selflessness often gets pushed aside for sheer survival. I'm not saying PCs can't or won't be good or heroic, just that Athasian PCs may be a little darker than core PCs. Maybe not, but the possibility is definitely there.
Not necessarily, I own a fairly hard to find Dark Sun release called the Age of Heroes, apparently based on some RPGA events and other things which had players honestly trying to be heroic. The stuff in there was actually pretty good, though the flavor text even said that this 'Age of Heroes' was likely fleeting but it might do some good while it stood. It even introduced one of the sorceror kings being somewhat reformed, finding a way to marry perserver magic and psionic energies, transforming himself into a lamia rather than a dragon.
Doesn't change the fact that anything was cramped into Eberron as it was into FR and this is a relevant fact for looking ahead to what to expect for Dark Sun.
And it was done well in Eberron, so much so I haven't really felt that tieflings or Eladrin are particularly out of place (or Dragonborn for that matter).
Just because they do add these things doesn't mean they do them poorly by default. That's a really terrible assumption on your part.
Not necessarily, I own a fairly hard to find Dark Sun release called the Age of Heroes, apparently based on some RPGA events and other things which had players honestly trying to be heroic. The stuff in there was actually pretty good, though the flavor text even said that this 'Age of Heroes' was likely fleeting but it might do some good while it stood. It even introduced one of the sorceror kings being somewhat reformed, finding a way to marry perserver magic and psionic energies, transforming himself into a lamia rather than a dragon.
Umm.. age of Heroes was the player supplement in the Expanded and Revised Box Set.. or are you referring to a different Age of Heroes book?
Not necessarily, I own a fairly hard to find Dark Sun release called the Age of Heroes, apparently based on some RPGA events and other things which had players honestly trying to be heroic. The stuff in there was actually pretty good, though the flavor text even said that this 'Age of Heroes' was likely fleeting but it might do some good while it stood. It even introduced one of the sorceror kings being somewhat reformed, finding a way to marry perserver magic and psionic energies, transforming himself into a lamia rather than a dragon.
Oronis Sorcerer King of Kurn and he was an Avangion.
Awesome, but the cover needs more Brom. It just ain't Dark Sun without Brom.
Most definitely. Brom totally rocks.
While I would love to see all the old classes revamped for 4E, I think they will probably go the feat tree route to brink them up to date. Or maybe even a specific build under the PH classes.
Other classes: Templars - templars were basically clerics that drew their power from sorceror kings. however, they filled both a bureacratic and military function. i think most any divine class could find a templar equivalent. you could have a paladin templar or an avenger templar just as easily as a cleric templar. invokers might be a little harder to fit, but they could draw their power from Rajaat rather than directly from sorceror kings.
Clerics - These guys get their power from the elements. Again, I think elemental power would be ideal here, but you could just add more divine powers that do elemental damage and leave the existing mechanics alone. WotC could just state that clerics draw their powers from the elements rather than from deities. Again, any divine class would work here. A sect of Water Avengers seeking vengeance for the ruination of Athas would be terrifying.
Martial characters - I would love to see an actual gladiator class, but they could create gladiators through feats or builds. Fighters could gain enhanced mobility and weapon capabilities. Two weapon wielding fighter or ranger gladiators would be cool. Rogues could be gladiators as well. Watch out for his first blow....it's a doozy. Warlords could also work but they seem to fit the 2E Athas Fighter more....leading followers into battle.
Primal characters - these guys all honor spirits of the land. any primal class could be represented. instead of just a druid at an oasis, you could have a tribe of barbarians or wardens led by a druid or shaman.
arcane - while bards were a distinct class from preservers or defilers, any arcane class could be affected by the limitations of drawing their spell power from their surroundings. even sorcerors and warlocks could devestate their surroundings if they need more power than their own bodies or source of their pact could provide.
psionics - no brainer. athas is MADE for followers of the Way
Preservers/Defilers will probably be one of:
2) Multi-class option ala Spellscar
I think that's an okay choice, but how different would a Defiler multiclass really be from Spellscarred? They're both 'weird spellcasting', so it seems like there'd be a lot of overlap.
EDIT: There's no way they'll ban the Divine power source. It's not going to happen. They'll be rare, PC-only options, but there's no way they'll put in the book 'you cannot play a Divine class in Dark Sun'. In previous editions, divine power was granted every morning by the gods, and there were no gods in Athas. But now? Secretive remnants of worshipers, passing on the vestiges of divine power from master to apprentice would just be awesome.
Devas - The gods of Athas aren't dead. They live on as devas; each deva housing the dregs of divine essence. Their ageless wisdom may stem from vague memories of divinity. The rakshasas in turn would be the remnants of evil deities. Kind of like quasi-proxies or avatars.
I really like this, and will be stealing the hell out of it if WotC doesn't beat me to it. ;)
I'm extraordinarily rusty on the history of Athas (never played it, always wanted to), but I think it'd be neat if there could be a juncture in the distant past (I need to brush up on the nature of the blue and green ages) when either a home-grown or external source brought a locust-like invasion of living constructs (only you can prevent gray goo!) down upon Athas. They came, ripped the metals from the earth, and left. A few millennia-old warforged are all that remain, leaving the mystery of what became of their people, and all of the precious metal they claimed. I have no idea if this could be made to fit, but will definitely try.
While the chitinous warforged idea is cool, I also think Athas is a good place for the 'hunted like animals' experience that would result of being a creature made of the most rare and valuable materials in existence.
Also, WotC are fools if they don't include Dragon/Avangion epic destinies. They've already established that PPs can grant wings and that EDs can increase one's size, so I think it'd be very possible (and awesome) to let us become our ascendants of choice.
I also wonder if they will make metal rare and have obsidian as the prime material for weapons. I remember back in 2nd edition when you rolled a one while wielding an obsidian weapon it would break.
I don't think the whole hero concept will work in Dark Sun because all anyone ever cared about was pure survival. I hope they don't change the setting in order to incorporate that. Also I really hope they leave out the Dragonborn and the Tieflings, they do not belong in this setting at all.
Also I really hope they leave out the Dragonborn and the Tieflings, they do not belong in this setting at all.
Don't count on that. They won't leave ot core material from anything. Brace yourself for the retcon so you're not upset when it happens.
They didn't belong in Eberron either... but I think they did a decent job squeezing them in.
Don't count on that. They won't leave ot core material from anything. Brace yourself for the retcon so you're not upset when it happens.
They didn't belong in Eberron either... but I think they did a decent job squeezing them in.
Ummm squeezing in those two races would be like trying to squeeze a 400lb woman into an itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka dot bikini.
I don't think the whole hero concept will work in Dark Sun because all anyone ever cared about was pure survival. I hope they don't change the setting in order to incorporate that. Also I really hope they leave out the Dragonborn and the Tieflings, they do not belong in this setting at all.
The heroes of the Pentad (aside from Tithian) were quite heroic. I think many people missed the point of adventuring under the Dark Sun - it wasn't that survival was paramount, it was that it was possible to be a hero even in a world so brutal as Athas.
As many above have pointed out, dragonborn can easily be reflavoured Dray. Tieflings are more problematic, but they can have a place (humans altered by the Pristine Tower).
Ummm squeezing in those two races would be like trying to squeeze a 400lb woman into an itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka dot bikini.
No not really, the parts of the race that make adding them in hard is their background information, not their stats or appearance. However since that is purely fluff, it can be completely re-written for the setting and presto working races.
The only thing that will keep someone from accepting that they can be put n the setting is an unjustified sense of elitism.
I don't think the whole hero concept will work in Dark Sun because all anyone ever cared about was pure survival. I hope they don't change the setting in order to incorporate that. Also I really hope they leave out the Dragonborn and the Tieflings, they do not belong in this setting at all.
Dark Sun always worked on two levels. One was the sand and blood, starving, thirsty, killing for access to shade level. The other was the epic, Sorceror-King slaying, defiler-fighting, world-saving level.
I would guess both would be represented in the new version as well, though 4E naturally slants toward the latter, so the former will hopefully get more attention to even it out.
Dragonborn, Eladrin and Tieflings could be unique mutants in Dark Sun just like the Genasi in Eberron are the results of certain magic circumstances.
As for the classes I think that the Divine classes draw their power through their worship of the Sorcerer-kings and Templar is an umbrella title for them.
Either the Dark Sun Player's Guide or the Player's Handbook 3 will have an Elementalist class under the Primal Source.
Paragon Paths that should be included: 4 Elemental, High Templar, Arena Champion/Gladiator, Guardian of the Land, Wizard of the Veiled Alliance, Dune Trader, a poison using entertainer, a couple Psionic, a racial for each race.
Epic Destinies should include: Avangion, Dragon, Elemental Being, Spirit of the Land, Master of the Order, Kingslayer.
Rituals: Create Tree of Life must be included. Maybe a few Epic-tier rituals based on the 10th level spells from Dragon Kings.
I hope the Dark Sun Campaign Guide has a 5-10 page section on each of the city-states of the Tablelands as well as a nice 20-30 page monster section and NPC stat blocks for each Sorcererking and The Dragon.
... Also I really hope they leave out the Dragonborn and the Tieflings, they do not belong in this setting at all.
I agree about Tiefs. But the Reptile-like Dragonborn seem to fit just fine.
You don't suppose that the 4ED Dark Sun campaign will be set on a distent part of Athus for the original, do ya?
Another thing about Athus was that TSR kept it in its own box. Officially heroes couldn't travel though dimensions to get there and no SpellJamming either. It was quite isolated. Will that continue do you think?
You don't suppose that the 4ED Dark Sun campaign will be set on a distent part of Athus for the original, do ya?
I hope not. The Tyr region is pretty much perfect for adventuring in, and most of the rest of the world was supposedly obliterated or simply ceased to exist during the last Age shift.
As far as new races, I'm fine with their inclusion if they make sense. Things like Gnomes that were historically hunted to extinction would be very hard to implement, but I suppose they could make minor changes to the setting's backstory that would make them possible. Too much of that sort of thing runs the risk of diluting the awesome, though.
The idea of tieflings in Dark Sun doesn't bother me at all. But the second I heard shifters in Dark Sun, I shuddered. Something about lycanthropes and Dark Sun just doesn't seem to fit together. :P
Ah well. I'm not passing judgement one way or another until next year. And, considering who is on their design team, I expect to be very pleased. I have faith in their ability to tie things in together well.
Huh. I'm such a hypocrite. :P
The idea of tieflings in Dark Sun doesn't bother me at all. But the second I heard shifters in Dark Sun, I shuddered. Something about lycanthropes and Dark Sun just doesn't seem to fit together. :P
Ah well. I'm not passing judgement one way or another until next year. And, considering who is on their design team, I expect to be very pleased. I have faith in their ability to tie things in together well.
They could pass off as mutants of some sort also. Most of the races can be retconned in as mutants if all else fails
Most...They could pass off as mutants of some sort also. Most of the races can be retconned in as mutants if all else fails
It would be a little silly if they add in a whole lot of mutants. Though, if they don't give them a major role in the setting, and just release a sidebar that says, "The following races can be included as the result of mutation, either by the hands of the sorcerer kings, or the prism tower," without including any NPCs of those races, then it really won't be that big of a deal. Each group can individually decide what they are ok with, and what really turns them off.
...except if they can prove they have a time machine and have already seen the finished product.
I have a time machine.
But it only travels into the future.
I liked the ideas about chitin, bone, or obsidian warforged. Also the idea of being on the run because you are made of metal on a metal starved world is awesome.
Regardless of whether you feel they belong or not, how could they fit in some of the PH races?
Eladrin are basically elves who never left the Feywild. In a world with no (possibly) Feywild where would they be? Mountain or desert hermits? Could they be sequestered in thinly veiled pockets of Athas and rarely leave? Elven nomads could be those that have left and been slowly altered by Athas. They could bring resources back to the Eladrin strongholds. Resources that are desperately needed because these pockets are just as devestated as the landscape surrounding them.
Tieflings, dragonborn, shifters, etc. could always be a "new" race for a PC if they are not indigenous to Athas.
Will 4e DS grant PCs a higher bonus to abilities upon character creation like the 2e version? Will there be a Wild Talent feat that every character gains upon creation? What is in store for us? I can't wait to see!
I liked the ideas about chitin, bone, or obsidian warforged. Also the idea of being on the run because you are made of metal on a metal starved world is awesome.
*shudders* Oh god I hope they leave out warforged in Dark Sun.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek
what if they rewrite dark sun for 4e, and take some (Not all) new things and add it in...would you atleast give it a chance? Sometimes you make things better whent they change...
Heck I herd they said Genasi would play a role in 4e DS...they were not in the 2e one, but I can see them fitting well...I also think tribes of goleiths fit just fine as well. Shifters with a major rewfluff maybe...
but heck until we see how they are doing it how do we know if it is better or worse....
or to put it another way. I am itialian (Ok 1/2) and my grandmother tought me to make sause. I spent about a year doing it her way, then one day I saw a show about it and saw some new ideas... The first time I tried my hybrid recipte she flipped...how dare I change the family recipte...
now adays most of my family thinks I make the best sauce int eh family (Grama included)... it took some expermants, some work...but I inproved on hers...
As long as they don't try and make it so obvious like they did with Forgotten Realms with regards to cramming everything in and rewriting the whole world in order to fit in a few races then it may not be so bad. I don't see why they can't write it with a few specific races that are campaign raw and make all the others that don't fit optional. I thought the whole deal about 4th edition was less book fluff and more DM intervention with regards to the world.
As long as they don't try and make it so obvious like they did with Forgotten Realms with regards to cramming everything in and rewriting the whole world in order to fit in a few races then it may not be so bad.
The changes to FR were not to fit in new races. They were to get the setting to one that meats their goals for making the PC relevant at every level, and to have a diverse world as opposed to 20 different kinds of Human cultures. I forget the link but I remember seeing an article describing how they feel a world should be set up around the time FRCG/FRPG came out. The Realms was to over developed, and needed the reset button.
Dark Sun fits their desire for a world fine, so no major re-writes necessary.
Shifters are one of the easier races to add because their feral and beastial. Hinterlands and the jagged cliffs region.
Yeah, shifters, goliaths and wilden seem pretty easy to write in. Just push them into the ringing mountains and you're good.
Shifters are one of the easier races to add because their feral and beastial. Hinterlands and the jagged cliffs region.
Except, shifters are supposed to be from lycantrhopic bloodlines, and like the gnomes the setting explicitly states that lycanthrops were hunted to extinction in Athas's past. That's why the idea of shifters in Dark Sun really turns me off. Its directly antithetical to old fluff. I'm totally ok with new additions. I'm not the biggest fan of stuff that directly contradicts the past fluff, thought.
But, *shrug.* They will do what they will do, and I'll be happy one way or another. Its easier to houserule one race out of the game (worst case scenario) than it is to write 4e Dark Sun from scratch. And, who knows, I might like what they come up with, even in regards to the inclusion of something like a shifter!
I agree (with Batshido) though. Wilden fit in REALLY well.
(seriously though) there could be survivors. I mean the Lizardmen managed to survive even though they were marked for death.
Except, shifters are supposed to be from lycantrhopic bloodlines, and like the gnomes the setting explicitly states that lycanthrops were hunted to extinction in Athas's past. That's why the idea of shifters in Dark Sun really turns me off. Its directly antithetical to old fluff. I'm totally ok with new additions. I'm not the biggest fan of stuff that directly contradicts the past fluff, thought.
Well, hopefuly, they won't write in the shifters (though perhaps the history), and leave the PC option as more of a "sole survivor"
i'm pretty sure they'll re-skin the furries into mutants or something else instead if they want to fit them into Athas.
Except, shifters are supposed to be from lycantrhopic bloodlines, and like the gnomes the setting explicitly states that lycanthrops were hunted to extinction in Athas's past.
the irony in this is that ebberon (Where shifters started) has simalar fluff...
the lycanthrops were hunted to all but extinction, these few bloodlines of humans are all that is left...there are no werewolves in Ebberon...
the irony in this is that ebberon (Where shifters started) has simalar fluff...
the lycanthrops were hunted to all but extinction, these few bloodlines of humans are all that is left...there are no werewolves in Ebberon...
well, that's only because no one expected the Silver Inquisition. ;)
Well, hopefuly, they won't write in the shifters (though perhaps the history), and leave the PC option as more of a "sole survivor"
To be honest, I don't like "sole survivor" cases. They don't work well with the Dark Sun setting's lethality.
remember that in darksun dwarves are beardless with klingon foreheads. darksun takes your classics and throws out the old fluff and laughs as it falls in the mud, then runs it over with a truck. for kicks and more giggles.
i'm pretty sure they'll re-skin the furries into mutants or something else instead if they want to fit them into Athas.
If we're going to start reskinning things;
Dragonborn are Dray
Half Orcs are Muls
Goliaths are Half Giants
Githyanki/Githzerai are Gith
Shifters could come from indigenous tribes that all have the same Animal Affinity style psychic talent.
Deva could be the Preserver apotheosis beings of the veiled alliance.
Gnomes could be advanced, non-feral halflings.
There are a lot of things that can be tweaked a little to fit these things in if they're wanted.
well, that's only because no one expected the Silver Inquisition. ;)
Good sir, Could we dare hope to see an elfling?
No, Interesting trilogy, but considering what that Halfling tribe did when they found out their chiefs son had knocked up an elf chick.....
the irony in this is that ebberon (Where shifters started) has simalar fluff...
the lycanthrops were hunted to all but extinction, these few bloodlines of humans are all that is left...there are no werewolves in Ebberon...
That's not true. I mean, its true that there was a lycanthroping purge. Its true that many were killed. Its true that many others had to escape to a different plane to survive. But its not true that none exist on Eberron anymore. The purge was unsuccessful. According to the fluff, were-creatures are still around, albeit in greatly reduced numbers.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
He did mention that there was a large discussion about Goliaths and Half-Giants and what should be done about that. Having both in Dark Sun is redundant because, as he described them, they are the same thing practically. However, he would not tell me what was decided by the discussion but that he was happy with the solution.
More races to come in the DSPG. Not a surprise but good to hear.
I asked about the mechanics to handle the effects of magic on the world and how it would effect the current lists of powers we have. He said they have a good mechanic for it, he likes it and it will definitely affect the powers we have now but once again politely declined to tell me more.
That's all he told me.
DRAGONBORN ARE ALREADY IN DARK SUN. THEY HAVE BEEN SINCE 1994. BEFORE EVEN THE REVISED EDITION.
Seriously people. Quit whining about stuff that was already part of Dark Sun.
*shudders* Oh god I hope they leave out warforged in Dark Sun.
Warforged will be put in, because alongside Genasi they are one of the new races that make the most sense for existing in Dark Sun.
Could we dare hope to see an elfling?
Only if they're schizophrenic.
Except, shifters are supposed to be from lycantrhopic bloodlines, and like the gnomes the setting explicitly states that lycanthrops were hunted to extinction in Athas's past. That's why the idea of shifters in Dark Sun really turns me off. Its directly antithetical to old fluff. I'm totally ok with new additions. I'm not the biggest fan of stuff that directly contradicts the past fluff, thought.
Then the Shifter fluff will be changed. You know, like cannibal halflings and nomadic elves and hairless dwarves. :P
If we're going to start reskinning things;
Dragonborn are Dray
Half Orcs are Muls
Goliaths are Half Giants
Githyanki/Githzerai are Gith
Shifters could come from indigenous tribes that all have the same Animal Affinity style psychic talent.
Deva could be the Preserver apotheosis beings of the veiled alliance.
Gnomes could be advanced, non-feral halflings.
There are a lot of things that can be tweaked a little to fit these things in if they're wanted.
Mechanically, i find that warforged make the best muls. Take out the living construct bit, of course.
Warforged will be put in, because alongside Genasi they are one of the new races that make the most sense for existing in Dark Sun.
I seriously doubt this will happen.
Mechanically, i find that warforged make the best muls. Take out the living construct bit, of course.
Uhhhhhhhhh????????............ Good luck with that.
I seriously doubt this will happen.
Be prepared to be disappointed then. Genasi have already been mentioned as a shoe-in from my understanding.
Be prepared to be disappointed then. Genasi have already been mentioned as a shoe-in from my understanding.
It's an elemental rich world so Genasi would fit, but I'm sorry warforged do not fit in Dark Sun.
It's an elemental rich world so Genasi would fit, but I'm sorry warforged do not fit in Dark Sun.
Yes, they do. Blue/Green Age relics. They fit perfectly. Hell, they fit better than elves and dwarves.
Yes, they do. Blue/Green Age relics. They fit perfectly. Hell, they fit better than elves and dwarves.
If that's what you think.
At least he thinks.
At least he thinks.
Poor attempt at an insult if that's what that was.
Warforged don't realy fit in. Athas never really had even Golems for example and constructs in general don't really fit the world that well, let alone sentient ones. Constructs do exist of coursem but they're kinda rare. You could make them fit of course but they don't really belong. Darksun Druids would probably find them very unnatural. It would be basically shoe horning them in.
I don't know if the fluff has been changed much but Golems used to be powered by trapped elemental forces in 2nd ed. In Dark Sun the idea of using elementals for this purposes would be very sacriligeious, even for most evil people. Alot of the damage done to Athas is tied into the way the world relates to the elemental planes. Basically it would be like defiling the planet. Or a cut on a more standard world siphoning power off al of the gods, something that even evil clerics of evil gods would be against.
I could see Changelings/Doppelgangers, though. Blame it on some mad halflings from way back when. Ones who didn't trust Rajaat and created them as a boogeyman since that's what they always worked best as in 1e and 2e. Course that's probably not what they like to think of themselves now, but who ever asks the boogeyman about itself?
warforged aren't canon either, but they could easily be fit in without much fuss or muss (on the creative side at least).
shifters wouldn't be too hard either. drop the lycanthropy angle (i.e. cannibal halflings and hairless dwarves) and their feralness is a great fit.
i've heard goliaths may be substituted for half-giants. i think goliaths would fit really well, but i would really like to see half-giants make it back. their flavor was great. changing alignment daily according to their companions was fun. plus their backstory fits well. goliaths would fit on Athas, but i hope it's not at the half-giant's expense.
dopplegangers/changelings would be great as servant/spies created by sorceror kings.
shadar-kai could be the servants of the shadow giants.
i've heard goliaths may be substituted for half-giants. i think goliaths would fit really well, but i would really like to see half-giants make it back. their flavor was great. changing alignment daily according to their companions was fun. plus their backstory fits well
A) You can't have both, because they're exactly the same. Since we already have the Goliath, that's the one they'll use.
B) There's no such thing as Alignment in 4e, so this whole "changing alignment every 15 seconds" thing is not coming back.
I don't expect there to be large populations of Genasi, Warforged, or Shifters. Nor do I expect that all PHB1 races will be commonplace. But I do expect there to be a sidebar detailing where they fit in if you and the DM agree to fit one into your campaign.
[INDENT]
Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.
[/INDENT]
I think it's safe to say that they may very well make Athas dramatically different from the other presented settings. We may see a setting far removed from the core cosmology, which shares parts of it, but perhaps not all of it (or even most of it). We may see races that are treated vastly different from the way they are treated in other worlds.
For instance:
- I think the Shadowfell will replace the Black. I do not expect to see the Feywild, and if we do, it will not be the nature-laden plane that it is in other settings. It will represent nature as it is on Athas... wild, dangerous and barren.
- I think the Astral Sea will replace the Gray. There will likely not be domains in there. Just like the Gray, it will be the final destination for souls, where they are gradually consumed by the universe itself.
- I expect the gods to not exist. Domains will remain, but things will work vastly different. Clerics will either be tied to the elementals (where they will receive elemental domain abilities), Sorcerer Kings (where they will receive domains such as Justice, and will go by the term "templar") or other similarly grand beings of Athas, the closest thing to gods that the people could hope for.
- I think preserver and defiler magic will be a universal modification to all arcane classes. They will work similar to how they might in other worlds, but with the added idea that their power is borrowed or torn from the world around them.
- I expect a LOT of races to change their fluff dramatically. No, warforged are not going to be common constructs made of iron, wood and stone. No, deva probably aren't going to be a race of divine beings. Half-orcs may not even actually be related to orcs (they were wiped out). Instead, we will probably see many races undergo a change so dramatic, that they will share mechanical and physiological similarities to the same species from another world, but everything else will be vastly different.
There is room for just about everything from 4th Edition in Dark Sun, but how they handle inserting it is going to be key. Things won't be placed in like they are in other settings, and the interview pretty much indicates that the development crew knows this. We just have to wait and see what they actually plan to do.
This could be the worst thing that ever happened to Athas... or it can be the best thing that ever happened to Athas. We'll have to wait and see.
It would be a little silly if they add in a whole lot of mutants. Though, if they don't give them a major role in the setting, and just release a sidebar that says, "The following races can be included as the result of mutation, either by the hands of the sorcerer kings, or the prism tower," without including any NPCs of those races, then it really won't be that big of a deal. Each group can individually decide what they are ok with, and what really turns them off.
Not really, when you read the original boxed set. In that text, remember, even "normal" humans could have quite a bit of unusual variety. Blue skin, random scales, hair in odd places, weird spots or stripes or similar colorations, bizarre eyes, and more, were the kind of things mentioned as being fairly commonplace on the most common race, humans (and likewise occurred on other races). That was before the Pristine Tower was mentioned, and its implications known. I can easily see shifters as being akin to that.
I can also easily see shifters as folks who happen to have a certain wild talent, ala the Animal Affinity power. Consider them to simply be humans, elves, whatever, with that sort of potent wild talent fundamentally changing and defining who they are.
I can't imagine they'd turn the entire Divine Power source into the Elemental power source in one fell swoop.
It wouldn't be that hard, at least not the way the setting did it originally. A few elemental Channel Divinity feats and Elemental Domain feats that add elemental damages to radiant damage powers and you'd be set.
It wouldn't be that hard, at least not the way the setting did it originally. A few elemental Channel Divinity feats and Elemental Domain feats that add elemental damages to radiant damage powers and you'd be set.
That is exactly how i handled it in my converted Dark Sun campaign.
But I think warforged could be changed to fit. The main bulk of the warforged body is root-like organic material grown in vats. It you replace the composite plate with something else, like maybe leather, then you could have servants that you can grow. They could even be left "naked" so to speak.
As for tieflings, they where made by a curse. Are there any cursed peoples in Dark Sun? Could a defiler occasionally produce an offspring that is marked by their parents blighting of the land? If either of these is yes they could fit.
Could we dare hope to see an elfling?
“ When single shines the triple sun,
What was sundered and undone
Shall be whole, the two made one,
By
My knowledge of Dark Sun is rather limted...
But I think warforged could be changed to fit. The main bulk of the warforged body is root-like organic material grown in vats. It you replace the composite plate with something else, like maybe leather, then you could have servants that you can grow. They could even be left "naked" so to speak.
Um, yea... growing things on Athas, its a bit of a problem. :P
The best thing they can do is leave Warforged out of Dark Sun. The point is they do not fit the setting. Stop trying to add races into a setting just for the sake of adding them. The only way they would fit is if the thing were gated in from another plane of existence.
Yes, Xul. We heard you the first time.
The best thing they can do is leave Warforged out of Dark Sun. The point is they do not fit the setting. Stop trying to add races into a setting just for the sake of adding them. The only way they would fit is if the thing were gated in from another plane of existence.
Except of course that they do fit. No matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise, magically created servants used by the supreme defiler on the planet as shock troops in the genocidal wars to wipe out non-humans is 100% in keeping with Dark Sun.
But you go ahead and keep telling yourself otherwise. It doesn't really matter.
The best thing they can do is leave Warforged out of Dark Sun. The point is they do not fit the setting. Stop trying to add races into a setting just for the sake of adding them. The only way they would fit is if the thing were gated in from another plane of existence.
Why is it always the people who know the least about Dark Sun the ones who come out with this rubbish? Constructs not unlike Warforged already exist and were used extensively in Dark Suns canon. Same with things like Dragonborn.
To be honest, I don't like "sole survivor" cases. They don't work well with the Dark Sun setting's lethality.
If Dark Sun is such a lethal setting then I would imagine there would be lots of "sole survivors".
If Dark Sun is such a lethal setting then I would imagine there would be lots of "sole survivors".
A REAL SETTING WOULD FINISH THE JOB!
(:P)
Why is it always the people who know the least about Dark Sun the ones who come out with this rubbish? Constructs not unlike Warforged already exist and were used extensively in Dark Suns canon. Same with things like Dragonborn.
Absolutely.. i can see warforged fitting in perfectly, change their skin to be Chitin or Obsidian and you have a dark sun flavoured warforged. I a lan where you can play giant bugs, i don't see why the warforged would be such a big problem.
Changlelings I see as either a race that has hidden in with humans, living in the city states, right under the nose of the templars and sorcerer kings and not being noticed.. they could be pristine tower mutants, that makes sense to me as well.
Shifters, could be like changelings, but they have existed in the tribes of the desert. Savage human tribes that have become animalistic. That would work awesome in my opinion if you reflavoured them to be related to the more savage of elf tribes as well!.. or once again, the could easily be mutants form the pristine tower, that is by no mean a stretch either.. tribesman who set up their territory too close to the tower, and now they aren't quite human anymore, i am sure i remember reading about a tribe of elves that happened to.
There are not many races that can't be explained in some fashion in Dark Sun, especially if you are willing to accept they are extremely rare, perhaps only one s,all tribe exists, or they are single mutated humanoids form the tower, or the result of magical experimentation of a sorcerer king or defiler who has escaped.
There are not many races that can't be explained in some fashion in Dark Sun, especially if you are willing to accept they are extremely rare, perhaps only one s,all tribe exists, or they are single mutated humanoids form the tower, or the result of magical experimentation of a sorcerer king or defiler who has escaped.
But why do it. Why even play Dark Sun if your just going to put everything from every where else in it. Sure you can fit the Smurfs in but you shouldn't.
But why do it. Why even play Dark Sun if your just going to put everything from every where else in it. Sure you can fit the Smurfs in but you shouldn't.
No one is saying you have to play everything in the book, but the option should be there is somebody wants to.. i think playing a warforged character in dark sun would be kinda fun, i mean the he would be able to sidestep alot of the survival aspect of the game.. but so do the thri-kreen.
I just think, if a plausible explaination can be made, there is no reason yet to include it, especially if people want to do it. And like i said, if your DMing and you want to keep it more purest DS, just rule them out of the game.
A psionic based intelligent construct made as a servitor race from the Green Age I could buy, as they have already done a similar idea with inanimate orbs. In 3.5 I made a living construct race so the Mindlords of the Last see could transfer their essences from the orbs into a mobile living shell.
And I'm still overjoyed that the next setting is Dark Sun, because what I want from campaign settings is unique ideas and rules to pillage for my homebrew world, and Dark Sun has got to have loads more fresh material than any of the other possibilities that were talked about.
But why do it. Why even play Dark Sun if your just going to put everything from every where else in it. Sure you can fit the Smurfs in but you shouldn't.
Because races aren't the only thing that makes Dark Sun, Dark Sun?
One big change I would do to Warforged would be make them psionic constructs instead of magical ones. They could be left overs from a previous war, a new soldier race for a Sorcerer King or a creation forge gets reactivated from the Green Age. Dark Sun already has sentient guardian orbs, Warforged could have a simialr backstory as well.
A psionic based intelligent construct made as a servitor race from the Green Age I could buy, as they have already done a similar idea with inanimate orbs. In 3.5 I made a living construct race so the Mindlords of the Last see could transfer their essences from the orbs into a mobile living shell.
One of the later 3.5 Eberron books actually had a Warforged variant called the Psiforged. At least I think I remember that. I could be remembering a fever dream ...
I've never played in a Dark Sun campaign. It doesn't sound like the sort of setting my group would enjoy. Just the wrong sort of premise.
And I'm still overjoyed that the next setting is Dark Sun, because what I want from campaign settings is unique ideas and rules to pillage for my homebrew world, and Dark Sun has got to have loads more fresh material than any of the other possibilities that were talked about.
I am most excited because I love Dark Sun (Check my sig.. i have done around 200 pages of conversion for the setting..) But i am also very exicted about system i can drop into other games as well.. i love gritty RPGs and i ma looking forward to seeing how WOTC handle that in 4th ed, I am also very much looking forward to the boons system to replace the reliance on Magical Items for balance.. i have never really been a huge fan of magical items, and if i can run a low magic game in 4th ed, that would be awesome.
No one is saying you have to play everything in the book, but the option should be there is somebody wants to.. i think playing a warforged character in dark sun would be kinda fun, i mean the he would be able to sidestep alot of the survival aspect of the game.. but so do the thri-kreen.
I just think, if a plausible explaination can be made, there is no reason yet to include it, especially if people want to do it. And like i said, if your DMing and you want to keep it more purest DS, just rule them out of the game.
If you put it in the books then it is part of Dark Sun. Like I said before I don't care if 4e Dark Sun is different than 2e Dark Sun but I hope they don't just fit all the present races and classes into it. They can add races and classes that were not in 2e but make them new races and classes. Please don't soil Dark Sun with stuff to make it just like any other Eb or FR or DL game.
If you put it in the books then it is part of Dark Sun. Like I said before I don't care if 4e Dark Sun is different than 2e Dark Sun but I hope they don't just fit all the present races and classes into it. They can add races and classes that were not in 2e but make them new races and classes. Please don't soil Dark Sun with stuff to make it just like any other Eb or FR or DL game.
Relax. A lot of it will be in the form of a sidebar saying, "Want to play X? Talk with your DM, and here are some ideas on how to work it in..."
And hey, maybe they'll do something cool that you didn't expect. Or maybe it'll suck and you'll have lots to houserule. Either option is fun in its own way.
Because races aren't the only thing that makes Dark Sun, Dark Sun?
One of the later 3.5 Eberron books actually had a Warforged variant called the Psiforged. At least I think I remember that. I could be remembering a fever dream ...
Magic of Eberron IIRC had the Psiforged in it. Not that any race added to DS will likely get a rather severe cultural make over even if mechanically identical. Wouldn't be to surprised to see optional racial powers to replace the ones in the PHB.
What a shame Dark Sun has to be dragged into 4E. Already 4E is going to have a PHB 3 and I hear a DMG 3- what a short time. The polished piece of dung that is 4E will now tarnish a good system. My comments will probably be taken off for what they call Trolling, but to me there is no such thing- it's only people that are unhappy with a current situation and everyone should have their say. Those people are customers, or at least were, and if a customer is not happy in the way WotC finds they should be then their comment is stricken from the record. Next the polished dung will destroy Ravenloft, Planescape or Greyhawk. I won't spend a single cent on 4E crap, but if I have to I will download Dark Sun material to stay up on the stories.
Would you like some Preperation H for your colossal butthurt?
The best thing they can do is leave Warforged out of Dark Sun. The point is they do not fit the setting. Stop trying to add races into a setting just for the sake of adding them. The only way they would fit is if the thing were gated in from another plane of existence.
Please. About half of the playable races could easily fit in as the end-result of one of the many twisted experiments of the sorcerer kings. It's how half-giants were made, so why couldn't they just as easily make freakish horned people and constructs?
Why is it always the people who know the least about Dark Sun the ones who come out with this rubbish? Constructs not unlike Warforged already exist and were used extensively in Dark Suns canon. Same with things like Dragonborn.
LOL!! That's hilarious. Some how you know all about how much knowledge of Dark Sun I have. I can promise you I know more about Dark Sun than you think.
LOL!! That's hilarious. Some how you know all about how much knowledge of Dark Sun I have. I can promise you I know more about Dark Sun than you think.
And yet you didn't seem to acknowledge the existence of psionic constructs... a place where the warforged would fit right in.
And yet you didn't seem to acknowledge the existence of psionic constructs... a place where the warforged would fit right in.
Do you honestly not know anything about Dark Sun? There were constructs but nothing like warforged.
So here's one thing that popped into my head if WotC drops races into Dark Sun that we don't like? Just use DM fiat to remove them from your continuity. Its not like we're playing in some kind of global LARP campaign where continuity must be maintained except where players have changed it.
The thing is if they drop in all these races then they are going to have to rewrite the history, therefore they will be taking up a lot of room in the book that can be used for other things. Why should I have to buy a product that I have to rewrite?
Do you honestly not know anything about Dark Sun? There were constructs but nothing like warforged.
Yeah. There wasn't anything on Eberron like the warforged either... BEFORE THEY BUILT THE WARFORGED!!!
Do you honestly not know anything about Dark Sun? There were constructs but nothing like warforged.
Not like Warforged word-for-word as described previously, but if you do some superficial tweaking of the Warforged idea, then I'm sure the result can be fit into the setting easily and painlessly.
The thing is if they drop in all these races then they are going to have to rewrite the history, therefore they will be taking up a lot of room in the book that can be used for other things. Why should I have to buy a product that I have to rewrite?
They're going to use half a page, maybe a page on fitting in each new race, at the very outside. However will you live?
LOL!! That's hilarious. Some how you know all about how much knowledge of Dark Sun I have. I can promise you I know more about Dark Sun than you think.
Obviously not as much as you think you do.
The thing is if they drop in all these races then they are going to have to rewrite the history, therefore they will be taking up a lot of room in the book that can be used for other things. Why should I have to buy a product that I have to rewrite?
.... What????
How does that make any logical sense at all? For one thing, whether or not any history is added, the amount written will be the exact same. A single paragraph, hell a single sentence in most cases, is all that's needed.
And why should you buy a product you have to rewrite? Well, gee, I dunno, how did you deal with FR or Eberron?
It's not all about you. It's about what's best for the setting. And if WotC thinks adding these races is what's best, that's what's going to happen. And they're right to do so.Yeah. There wasn't anything on Eberron like the warforged either... BEFORE THEY BUILT THE WARFORGED!!!
Ummmm there was no Eberron in the past. Eberron has always had Warforged.
Obviously not as much as you think you do.
.... What????
How does that make any logical sense at all? For one thing, whether or not any history is added, the amount written will be the exact same. A single paragraph, hell a single sentence in most cases, is all that's needed.
And why should you buy a product you have to rewrite? Well, gee, I dunno, how did you deal with FR or Eberron?
Campaign settings are not generic settings. Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun are specific settings with a specific history and background. They have their own history that the DM is supposed to get inspiration from and come up with adventures and stories that fit. If you have to go in and change everything then why not just sell campaign maps instead with no fluff so the DM has free reign to add anything he or she wants?
I actually do know more about Dark Sun than you think.
Campaign settings are not generic settings. Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun are specific settings with a specific history and background. They have their own history that the DM is supposed to get inspiration from and come up with adventures and stories that fit. If you have to go in and change everything then why not just sell campaign maps instead with no fluff so the DM has free reign to add anything he or she wants?
I question if you understand the point of settings at all. At any rate, changing a single paragraph blurb is not changing everything.
I actually do know more about Dark Sun than you think.
Maybe you do. But you still demonstrably know less than you think you do.
I question if you understand the point of settings at all. At any rate, changing a single paragraph blurb is not changing everything.
Maybe you do. But you still demonstrably know less than you think you do.
If thats what you think.
No, it's what I know, after watching you repeatedly demonstrate it.
But yeah, keep on arguing yourself into a argumentational grave, it's fun to see. Actually better than TV right now. But then again, TV is crap.
House Hunters rocks!
:P
Without knowing much about Dark Sun really, after listening to some discussions, it seems you don't need to do anything except to state "these already existing constructs use warforged stats, here, you might play them now"
Even I get that, ffs.
Also just to clarify, as you seem un-enlightened on the matter: Warforged did not exist since the beginning of times in Eberron, they were created first by the giants as a weapon against the quori. Later house cannith found some of them and began producing their own for the Last War, after which the creation forged for the warforged were mostly shut down.
Besides the usual variants of stone, wood and metal, there also existed a very specific sub-race so to speak, the Psiforged, which were strong psionical warforged of mostly unknown origin.
But yeah, keep on arguing yourself into a argumentational grave, it's fun to see. Actually better than TV right now. But then again, TV is crap.
I know they were not in the beginning of Eberron's history "in game". I am talking about out of game people. When the campaign setting of Eberron first came out is when the Warforged were introduced. They were not in any other setting before hand. Please take the time to read before you post.
They would also be made of wood and obsidian, with no metal parts, of course.
I know they were not in the beginning of Eberron's history "in game". I am talking about out of game people. When the campaign setting of Eberron first came out is when the Warforged were introduced. They were not in any other setting before hand. Please take the time to read before you post.
You're still missing the point. There were no constructs on Athas like the Warforged because the Warforged hadn't been created. Now that they have been created, there can be Warforged on Athas.
You could do some pretty interesting stuff with warforged in Dark Sun. In a society built upon the backs of slaves, the most obvious concept would be to have them as artificially created slave labor. Why feed a mul or half-giant when you can buy a tireless laborer? Sure they cost 10 times the amount of a flesh and blood slave, but imagine the money youll save on precious water and food. You could also do plots revolving abolitionists who may or may not consider warforged as living creatures, worthy of liberation like the other slaves.
They would also be made of wood and obsidian, with no metal parts, of course.
Isn't that what they pretty much did in Eberron except they were used for war?
So you didn't address my real point because of... what exactly?
There seem to be constructs in Dark Sun, created by the Sorcerer Kings or something else. They are psionic. There is a case of psionic warforged as proven above (I can cite page numbers from Magic of Eberron if you absolutely need it) and as was said the Dark Sun constructs seem to be of psionic nature.
Thus "Use warforged for Dark Sun constructs, guys. Enjoy playing." changes close to zilch of the setting, as it seems. If this is not the case, explain to me why you absolutely couldn't play one of the constructs, please.
What are you talking about? I don't care about Eberron, Eberron didn't exist when Dark Sun was around. When talking about Dark Sun Eberron has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. The constructs from Dark Sun were non sentient golems that were created with Psionics rather than magic. You can site anything you want from any Eberron book but it has nothing to with the argument at hand.
I live in germany, so I don't know what House Hunter is. We get american series somewhere between 1 and 10 years later than they come out. And the good shows are either cancelled in america right away ("Daybreak" I'm looking at you) or get cancelled in germany after a few episodes (they never showed the last few episodes of Eli Stone and cancelled the show Las Veagas after a very short run).
So yeah, the only good stuff over here are some documentaries and the occasional movie or good series that does make it through (over here crime series are quite big: Criminal Intent, CSI, Special Victims Unit, Law&Order, NCIS and such)
House Hunter is pretty much what it sounds like - just watching some person or couple being shown 3 different house (or condos or villas or whatever) within their budget range, and then they decide which to buy. It's better than it sounds, because of the variety of locations and styles you get to see. There's even an international version, showing people house hunting in various countries.
...... Well, I enjoy it. :P
You're still missing the point. There were no constructs on Athas like the Warforged because the Warforged hadn't been created. Now that they have been created, there can be Warforged on Athas.
No no no......*shakes head* Just drop it, you still don't get and I am not wasting any more time trying to explain to you.
What are you talking about? I don't care about Eberron, Eberron didn't exist when Dark Sun was around. When talking about Dark Sun Eberron has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. The constructs from Dark Sun were non sentient golems that were created with Psionics rather than magic. You can site anything you want from any Eberron book but it has nothing to with the argument at hand.
That was then. This is now. Now is not going to be 100% like then.
Ummmm there was no Eberron in the past. Eberron has always had Warforged.
No, they didn't. Prior to the Last War, there were no warforged. They were a product of that battle. It may have been an aspect of the setting since release, but settings change... especially Dark Sun.
Hell, a city was liberated within a very short time after release, not to mention that a sorcerer king was slain and the dragon was lain out. New species of kreen have been discovered, a race once thought extinct found to be hidden, and Rajaat himself found to still be alive. Are you honestly telling me that Dark Sun, one of the most dynamic settings of all time, cannot have warforged because that would "be a change"?
No no no......*shakes head* Just drop it, you still don't get and I am not wasting any more time trying to explain to you.
No, I get it perfectly. You don't like the idea of Warforged in DS, because you don't think they fit. However, it's extremely easy to make them fit without changing or damaging anything, and that's what will happen.
Maybe you should read my posts more carefully as you lectured me before. I was talking about Eberron mostly to state that warforged can be of psionic 'heritage'. That's why I was talking about Magic of Eberron.
So with a world chock full of mutants, crazy magic and messed up stuff, how do you argue it could never ever waaagh NEVOOOOOOORRZZZ! be possible for such a psionic construct to gain sentience?
Isn't that a straight-out perfect fit for Dark Sun?
Waaagh? I didn't know Xun was an Ork!
Hoooold!
There were. Many. Xen'Drik at the time of War, when the Giants fought the Quori - that's were warforged were first created, where their history really began.
Arguable. Those creatures were definitely what the warforged are based on, but they were a vastly more advanced type of construct and far different from the warforged of today. It's like looking at the first cars ever invented and a Ferrari and claiming "eh, it's the same thing".
No, they didn't. Prior to the Last War, there were no warforged. They were a product of that battle. It may have been an aspect of the setting since release, but settings change... especially Dark Sun.
Hell, a city was liberated within a very short time after release, not to mention that a sorcerer king was slain and the dragon was lain out. New species of kreen have been discovered, a race once thought extinct found to be hidden, and Rajaat himself found to still be alive. Are you honestly telling me that Dark Sun, one of the most dynamic settings of all time, cannot have warforged because that would "be a change"?
I am talking about the campaign setting itself as a product. You don't by chance walk around thinking that you are in a fantasy world in real life do you?
Hoooold!
There were. Many. Xen'Drik at the time of War, when the Giants fought the Quori - that's were warforged were first created, where their history really began.
It is rumored by some the early warforged were created not as instruments of war, but as bodies to house the Quori trying to escape- the same Quori that later became Kalashtar.
IIRC.
The first time around, I intentionally avoided Dark Sun for two reasons. 1, it had psionics, and at the time I didn't like psionics. (2nd edition no less. 1st edition ruined it for me.) Now I'm starting to get over that. And 2, Planescape was my world of choice at the time. The budget wouldn't allow picking up EVERY world.
I look forward to giving it a go this time around. Even better, since I have only a little knowledge, it won't bother me if any changes are made.
(Hope they keep the halflings, though. That idea was used in many other campaigns of mine...)Isn't that what they pretty much did in Eberron except they were used for war?
Which is why they would be so easy to fit into DS. Slaves cost money to maintain and the economy is based on slaves. It only makes sense that someone is going to try and build some cheap labor that doesn't require resources to maintain.
I just got another idea: what if DS warforged have obsidian orbs for brains/hearts that require a psionic consciousness to create? At first people would be happy to see tireless workers take the stress off of the population of living slaves, but the dark secret is that each construct created requires the sacrifice of a sentient humanoid to create. There could be some parallels with the revenant here as warforged would retain some of their memories of their past life.
The first time around, I intentionally avoided Dark Sun for two reasons. 1, it had psionics, and at the time I didn't like psionics. (2nd edition no less. 1st edition ruined it for me.) Now I'm starting to get over that. And 2, Planescape was my world of choice at the time. The budget wouldn't allow picking up EVERY world.
I gotta agree that 1e psionics were horrible. Just outright horrible. 2e psionics were fun, if you could get over the memory of 1e psionics being so horribly bad.
They also took up an inordinate chunk of the 1e DMG, as I remember.
Would you mind addressing this point Xun? ^_^
I have already addressed the point. There are just some worlds that some races just do not belong in. Are you going to tell me next that Warforged belong in Dragonlance?
Okay I'll take it slow for you.
In Dark Sun there are constructs of psionic heritage.
Warforged can have a psionic heritage as shown in Magic of Eberron.
Slightly reflavored Warforged can be used to emulate the Dark Sun constructs.
In Dark Sun, a world in which many many things changed, seemingly new stuff happens and sorcerer kings exist, there might be an incident in which one of the Psionic Constructs comes to sentience.
In this case you can use Warforged stats to play said sentient consutrct.
Et Voila, superb fit for Dark Sun. No jarring shoehorning and no totally ridiculous stuff happening to implement them. Just "business as usual in Athas".
You don't have to take anything slow. Your argument is irrelevant.
I have already addressed the point. There are just some worlds that some races just do not belong in.
And Athas is not one of those worlds.
It is a world with a history of living constructs created by the rhulisti (halfling) lifeshapers of the Blue Age. In that age, you have plants, animals, and more, being grown into buildings, weapons, armor, living construct guardians, pets, tools, and much, much more. Are you saying it is unlikely that the lifeshapers would have had the idea to make humanoid constructs, perhaps larger and physically stronger than themselves? Moreover, are you saying these living constructs wouldn't survive to the current era, even though countless life-shaped items do just that?
It is a world of psionic constructs, including psionic sentience, created by the powerful psionic masters of the Green Age. This was an era of psionic elevators, and subways, and mass communication, and guardians capable of performing near-endless tasks, of consciousness transference, or consciousness creation, or telekinetic feats of wonder, and much, much more. Are you saying the inhabitants of that era, capable of psionic feats at least on par with the pervasiveness of magic in Eberron, wouldn't think to make humanoid constructs to perform labor and similar tasks requiring no sleep and heavy endurance? Moreover, are you saying that those psionic constructs wouldn't last to the current era, even though countless such items do precisely that, including an entire isolated city on the Last Sea?
It is a world with magics powerful enough to all-but destroy the world in a cataclysmic world war. Are you saying the still-living champions of that era of war, some of whom have a specific history of creating magical constructs in the shape of humanoids (albeit obsidian colossi in that case), wouldn't have attempted to create magical constructs to fight for them in their genocidal war efforts? Moreover, are you saying that those magical constructs wouldn't last to the current era, even though many such items do precisely that, including actual humanoid magical constructs who appear to exhibit some sort of intelligence?
Yes, warforged, and constructs that function precisely like them, aren't suitable for every world. That much is true. Athas, however? The world of the dark sun ain't one of 'em.
And Athas is not one of those worlds.
It is a world with a history of living constructs created by the rhulisti (halfling) lifeshapers of the Blue Age. In that age, you have plants, animals, and more, being grown into buildings, weapons, armor, living construct guardians, pets, tools, and much, much more. Are you saying it is unlikely that the lifeshapers would have had the idea to make humanoid constructs, perhaps larger and physically stronger than themselves? Moreover, are you saying these living constructs wouldn't survive to the current era, even though countless life-shaped items do just that?
It is a world of psionic constructs, including psionic sentience, created by the powerful psionic masters of the Green Age. This was an era of psionic elevators, and subways, and mass communication, and guardians capable of performing near-endless tasks, of consciousness transference, or consciousness creation, or telekinetic feats of wonder, and much, much more. Are you saying the inhabitants of that era, capable of psionic feats at least on par with the pervasiveness of magic in Eberron, wouldn't think to make humanoid constructs to perform labor and similar tasks requiring no sleep and heavy endurance? Moreover, are you saying that those psionic constructs wouldn't last to the current era, even though countless such items do precisely that, including an entire isolated city on the Last Sea?
It is a world with magics powerful enough to all-but destroy the world in a cataclysmic world war. Are you saying the still-living champions of that era of war, some of whom have a specific history of creating magical constructs in the shape of humanoids (albeit obsidian colossi in that case), wouldn't have attempted to create magical constructs to fight for them in their genocidal war efforts? Moreover, are you saying that those magical constructs wouldn't last to the current era, even though many such items do precisely that, including actual humanoid magical constructs who appear to exhibit some sort of intelligence?
Yes, warforged, and constructs that function precisely like them, aren't suitable for every world. That much is true. Athas, however? The world of the dark sun ain't one of 'em.
Thats exactly what I am saying. You didn't have to go to the trouble of posting all that. It's irrelevant. But hey if thats what you want in your homebrew then knock yourself out.
Wow, even better. Warforged are as good a fit to Athas as they are a fit to Eberron evidently. Nice job, mate, nice job.
Thats exactly what I am saying. You didn't have to go to the trouble of posting all that. It's irrelevant.
Ahahahahahahaha. That's rich, man. A world with actual sentient constructs from two major eras, and the "tech" to do more in one other era, isn't a perfect fit for...sentient constructs.
LOL
You are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Ahahahahahahaha. That's rich, man. A world with actual sentient constructs from two major eras, and the "tech" to do more in one other era, isn't a perfect fit for...sentient constructs.
LOL
You are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Tell you what. Give me the page numbers and books that you get your information from.
Wow, Xul, you are slowly but surely mutating into the old Rant_Casey with his REALITY DEFYING POWERS!
The guy above just said that living constructs already existed in Athas, in the past of what is now Dark Sun. If that isn't a 100% fit, what is?
Aren't Warforged living constructs? Isn't that by the latter what tha above poster named already having existed?
I think you should try to expand upon your logic, because... it's non-euclidean logic... o_0
A soon as he gives me the sources we will see.
Actually this doesn't sound that bad. It would be one of the shows I might watch. But then again, I like watching snooker tournaments and documentaties most of the time.
God, I would kill for a Go-Channel :D
"Wait, he has just placed another stone! Is that what I--It is! He's done it! He's done it! Victory! Victory!"
;)
The only thing im hoping is they dont screw the setting core. I want to see dragon-kings in it. I want to see wastelands and people fighting for water and metal. Im really anxious to see how they adapt the different races: dark sun elves, muls, semi-giants... and how many new classes are we going to get: templars, gladiators, defilers, etc. Rules for low quality weapons and armor (bone, wood, obsidian)...
If they go and do like they did with Forgotten Realms.... x years ahead into the future! metal is everywhere! water is everywhere! dragon-kings? uh, woots that?.. i swear im done with wotc.
Please, please! I want the old flavor!
Cheers
A soon as he gives me the sources we will see.
The old Mind Lords of the Last Sea has sentient psionic based orbs and tech left over from the Green Age. City by the Sea of Silt hints at ancient Athas and has psionic based devices left over. Wind Rifers of the Jagged Cliffs has life shaped object in it, once again similar to Warforged in a way. Various DS adventures had guardian orbs in them or hinted at things like Psionic subways, cars, and even in current Athas you have psionic based silt skimmers.
Mindlords of the Last Sea would be the main one. Warforged can easily fit in Athas although I doubt they would be comon and the fluff might be different. Sentient psionic constructs already exist and you have things like the Obsidian Man of Urik. IIRC they are going to shoe horn the PHB1 races into the setting but they may not even bother with Warforged.
One reason that Warforged probably shouldn't exist as a PC race however is that they to easily get around the survival aspect nature of Darksun. Either way I wouldn't get to upset over it and see if they actually make it into the final product.
I am talking about the campaign setting itself as a product. You don't by chance walk around thinking that you are in a fantasy world in real life do you?
Irrelevant statement. Settings change over time, especially Dark Sun.
Well, the comparison is a little off, I'd argue. If you're a warforged and want pr0n equipment you go to Xen'Drik and look for docents, armaments and other stuff that fits you 100% and works at times better than you might think.
In essence this is like taking the engine from the first car, putting it into a ferrari and driving 200 mph over it, with the engine working fine, if not re-filling it's oil itself :P
For reference I suggest the novel series from Keith Baker. Spoiler below in block.SPOILER OF THE KEITH BAKER EBERRON BOOKS
In the book the warforged of the adventurer group finds a very powerful docent in the ruins somewhere, which is litterally ten-thousands of years old.
A soon as he gives me the sources we will see.
Do your own homework, Xul. You're the one who knows everything about Dark Sun.
Wow! My whole gaming group is going wild now. We really loved this setting back in 2nd Ed. The only bad thing is we have to wait so long to get our hands in this book....
The only thing im hoping is they dont screw the setting core. I want to see dragon-kings in it. I want to see wastelands and people fighting for water and metal. Im really anxious to see how they adapt the different races: dark sun elves, muls, semi-giants... and how many new classes are we going to get: templars, gladiators, defilers, etc. Rules for low quality weapons and armor (bone, wood, obsidian)...
If they go and do like they did with Forgotten Realms.... x years ahead into the future! metal is everywhere! water is everywhere! dragon-kings? uh, woots that?.. i swear im done with wotc.
Please, please! I want the old flavor!
Cheers
Based on the we must fit everything chanters here, you can forget the old flavor.
THE BLUE AGE
Show
Lost in the dim recesses of time, the first age of Athas was marked by an almost endless sea of blue. An azure flame burned deep within the sun’s heart. The few land masses that existed were marshes, swamps, or the peaks of mountains that jutted up from the sparkling waves, their tips covered with forests and that oddity known as snow.
In this age, a great halfling civilization flourished beneath the azure sun. Yes, you read rightly, friend. Moreover, the halflings were the only intelligent beings on Athas at the time (though there were apparently small numbers of primitive thri-kreen, whom the halflings looked upon as beasts). These halflings had neither magic nor psionics to call upon, but they had created a society more sophisticated and advanced than anything that presently exists on Athas. Their cities dotted the endless sea, spreading their influence far and wide and making them the undisputed masters of the world.
Perhaps the greatest halfling city was Tyr’agi, located in the hollow that would someday become the Tyr Valley. The vale was filled with a vast swamp of vine-draped trees and floating islands of moss. At the edge of the valley, a strange, beautiful city of graceful sweeps and brilliant colors rose from the marsh. The buildings were not so much constructed as they were grown, marked by an architecture of gentle curves and elegant spires, with no straight edges, sharp points, or abrupt corners. Everything was made from a uniformly porous stone that radiated any number of wonderful hues—blazing crimson, emerald green, royal blue, deep purple, and others.
There were no streets in Tyr’agi, but wide canals filled with long, slender boats crisscrossed the halfling city. The boats were not built of wood and hides, but were as alive in their own way as the child-sized halflings who guided them. I know what you must be thinking: How could the feral halflings create living structures, they who seem to hold life so cheaply? But I tell you these were not the feral halflings of today’s Athas. These halflings were not cannibals: they had short-cropped hair, elegant tabards, and wore “living creatures” on their bodies that served functions of which I have little understanding.
The halflings were the masters of the world, growing homes, tools, and other items from a rocklike plant that lived beneath the waves. They harvested the sea for everything they needed to maintain their vast, splendiferous society. They could create anything they needed by manipulating the principles of nature itself. They had no wizardly magic, no psionics, and only a small understanding of elemental priestly magic, but they were nature-masters and life-shapers, and that was more than enough.
The Blue Age lasted for untold generations, and with each passing century the halflings learned more and more about nature and the ways to manipulate it. They grew living transports, living armor, living weapons, and living tools. The world of the Blue Age was wondrous and alive, and it bowed to the commands of the halflings who inhabited it.
While most of the halfiing nature-masters worked in concert with the environment, a few rebels kept trying to push the boundaries, to make nature bend in ways it was never meant. Wars were fought against some of these nature-benders. . . . Sadly, a few of their living weapons have survived even to the current age. But it wasn’t a war, or an evil nature-bender, or a corrupt elemental priest who caused the Blue Age to come to an end. It was an accident, and nothing more.
While the knowledge the halflings possessed was vast, it was far from complete. The halflings of Tyr’agi tried to increase the sea’s capacity to sustain life so that the number of creatures and plants it produced could be doubled. The experiment went awry, however, and instead the sea began to die. A fetid brown tide spread across the waves, killing everything it touched. Many of the halflings panicked and looked for ways to protect themselves. Some built great subterranean strongholds. Others fled to the mountain forests. A few, however, remained in Tyr’agi, struggling to find a way to cure the dying sea.
Eventually reality sank in. There was no way to save the Blue Age. If life on Athas was to have any chance at all, the halflings had to stand aside and let another age begin.
In this age, a great halfling civilization flourished beneath the azure sun. Yes, you read rightly, friend. Moreover, the halflings were the only intelligent beings on Athas at the time (though there were apparently small numbers of primitive thri-kreen, whom the halflings looked upon as beasts). These halflings had neither magic nor psionics to call upon, but they had created a society more sophisticated and advanced than anything that presently exists on Athas. Their cities dotted the endless sea, spreading their influence far and wide and making them the undisputed masters of the world.
Perhaps the greatest halfling city was Tyr’agi, located in the hollow that would someday become the Tyr Valley. The vale was filled with a vast swamp of vine-draped trees and floating islands of moss. At the edge of the valley, a strange, beautiful city of graceful sweeps and brilliant colors rose from the marsh. The buildings were not so much constructed as they were grown, marked by an architecture of gentle curves and elegant spires, with no straight edges, sharp points, or abrupt corners. Everything was made from a uniformly porous stone that radiated any number of wonderful hues—blazing crimson, emerald green, royal blue, deep purple, and others.
There were no streets in Tyr’agi, but wide canals filled with long, slender boats crisscrossed the halfling city. The boats were not built of wood and hides, but were as alive in their own way as the child-sized halflings who guided them. I know what you must be thinking: How could the feral halflings create living structures, they who seem to hold life so cheaply? But I tell you these were not the feral halflings of today’s Athas. These halflings were not cannibals: they had short-cropped hair, elegant tabards, and wore “living creatures” on their bodies that served functions of which I have little understanding.
The halflings were the masters of the world, growing homes, tools, and other items from a rocklike plant that lived beneath the waves. They harvested the sea for everything they needed to maintain their vast, splendiferous society. They could create anything they needed by manipulating the principles of nature itself. They had no wizardly magic, no psionics, and only a small understanding of elemental priestly magic, but they were nature-masters and life-shapers, and that was more than enough.
The Blue Age lasted for untold generations, and with each passing century the halflings learned more and more about nature and the ways to manipulate it. They grew living transports, living armor, living weapons, and living tools. The world of the Blue Age was wondrous and alive, and it bowed to the commands of the halflings who inhabited it.
While most of the halfiing nature-masters worked in concert with the environment, a few rebels kept trying to push the boundaries, to make nature bend in ways it was never meant. Wars were fought against some of these nature-benders. . . . Sadly, a few of their living weapons have survived even to the current age. But it wasn’t a war, or an evil nature-bender, or a corrupt elemental priest who caused the Blue Age to come to an end. It was an accident, and nothing more.
While the knowledge the halflings possessed was vast, it was far from complete. The halflings of Tyr’agi tried to increase the sea’s capacity to sustain life so that the number of creatures and plants it produced could be doubled. The experiment went awry, however, and instead the sea began to die. A fetid brown tide spread across the waves, killing everything it touched. Many of the halflings panicked and looked for ways to protect themselves. Some built great subterranean strongholds. Others fled to the mountain forests. A few, however, remained in Tyr’agi, struggling to find a way to cure the dying sea.
Eventually reality sank in. There was no way to save the Blue Age. If life on Athas was to have any chance at all, the halflings had to stand aside and let another age begin.
A soon as he gives me the sources we will see.
I'm getting flashbacks to the Drider argument here ....
One of my Dragon back issues lists a dozen or so of them, and it was from the late 90s, although I can't find it right now.
Personaly though I dont see them putting Warforged into the setting except maybe by popular demand. Which it looks like we are starting to get here.
To me its about looking forward and not always looking back. Keeping the old timeline, old flavor and old concepts and molding it to create something that feels like Dark Sun yet feels new and interesting in my oppinion is the way to go. I cant speak for everyone else but I like a little change.
The Psion preview mentioned that the Githzerai preview would be the next month. The Githzerai preview did not mention what the next preview would be. One of the staff commented on the DDi boards that the Sept. preview would be a pleasant surprise no one would be expecting (or something to that effect).
My prediction is that rather than the Gnoll, which had been my guess, the 4th and final PHB3 race will be a Dark Sun race, possibly the Thri-kreen, and that is what will be getting previewed in Sept. They didn't list it in the Gith preview because it would spoil the CS announcement.
That's my guess, and I might be sticking to it!
My prediction is that rather than the Gnoll, which had been my guess,...
They would only need to preview Gnolls if it is heavily changed from the Dragon Version they released last year, and I doubt it will be since that would make 2 different official versions of the race with one being available for free, and one in a book.
the "gith" of Athas are NOT githyanki Or githzerai...
although the "Black Spine " adventure says they are related to githyanki, they are degenerate relatives with very little in common, at best
and many folk do not take Black SPine as cannon anyway as it messes things up too much!
So you cannot run gith as githyanki, because gith are very primitive, almost bestial. Very very different indeed
No no no......*shakes head* Just drop it, you still don't get and I am not wasting any more time trying to explain to you.
You've got to remember that this is the person that completely misunderstands Drow in FR.
They would only need to preview Gnolls if it is heavily changed from the Dragon Version they released last year, and I doubt it will be since that would make 2 different official versions of the race with one being available for free, and one in a book.
What I meant was that I had been thinking the Gnoll was going to be the 4th race, not the preview for next month.
Tell you what. Give me the page numbers and books that you get your information from.
First of all, we have golems, of all ilk, which are above animal intelligence, and therefore borderline sentient.
Without even counting that (golems, and other less intelligent constructs, but with an intelligence nonetheless), we have psyches trapped within orbs, capable of telekinetic feats. The Mind Lords of the Last Sea themselves are psionic constructs, long past being remotely biological, mortal creatures. Just look at that entire book, to see a small portion of Green Age psi-tech. Subways, psyches stored in orbs that are essentially immortal performing complex tasks for thousands of years on end, from simple heating of water into steam, to keeping the city in repair, to protecting the borders, violently if necessary. Is it remotely outside of the bounds of the limited knowledge we've been given of that era that an obsidian orb with a psyche bound to it could use the telekinesis it possesses to animate a specially constructed body given to it?
Look at pg 41 of Veiled Alliance, at the Black Guards, who are huge constructs, capable of guarding the entirety of the lower level of his palace without orders. You'll have to forgive me if I don't feel like poring through literally every book line by line, but there was also mention of these or another obsidian construct occasionally coming and going of their own volition, with strong hints that said construct had an agenda of its own.
Look at pg 80 of the Psionic Artifacts of Athas. The Green Rhul. It is an actual sentient, living construct. It is generally more intelligent (18 Int) than anyone who chooses to get inside of it, and is 100% free-willed and sentient. This is but a lone example of countless creations made via countless experiements many, many thousands of years ago.
Note that in the Wind-riders of the Jagged Cliffs, there are other life-shaped items capable of mimicking tendons, and similar locomotive bodily functions. Is it remotely outside the boundaries of even the limited scope of that Age's knowledge we've been given, that a small handful of these items would have been combined by someone, and a full-blown living construct is "born"? Truly? Make a less powerful life-shaped construct similar to the Green Rhul with life-shaped symbiotes that allows it to move without a rhulisti inside of it, and you've got a warforged-like being.
Do you understand the difference between fluff and crunch? That something can be 100% mechanically identical to something else, yet story-wise, it differs? Do you think that for warforged to exist in any world, they absolutely must follow the FLUFF of the Eberron warforged? That they MUST be made of metal, bred for war, look like Eberron warforged look, created in forges, etc? That is woefully incorrect.
I'll give Dark Sun its do, and check out the general specs through DDI, but again it did nothing for me last go around I cant imagine it will now.
I never found anything enjoyable about the setting personally. The idea of showing 4e's ability to stray into less "rigidly defined" fantasy settings stinks of the very issues 4e was ( in my mind ) designed to correct/avoid.
This is the thing I have been waiting for. I love the 4e rule-set but god damn I want it to deviate into more variety. I want to see all manner of fantasy showcased in 4e, from Horror, Post-Apocalypse, New Weird, Steampunk, Science-Fantasy, etc.
Who thinks WotC will plop in 4e PHB1 races into a 4e Dark Sun without twisting them.
The 4e DS elves will NOT be like 4e PHB1 elves.
The 4e DS halflings will NOT be like 4e PHB1 halflings.
The 4e DS dwarves will NOT be like 4e PHB1 dwarves.
So what's with getting all knotted up over the idea that 4e PHB1 tieflings WON'T get the same 4e Dark Sun twist? OR that warforged, if they make it in, won't get the same 4e Dark Sun twist?
The Pristine Tower is enough of a justification for some races, for example Changlings or Shifters . . . Dark Sun already a canon assumption for new unheard of mutants, they are called the New Races.
All that said, Dark Sun was also a break with the kitchen sink fantasy. The central historical event to modern Athas is the genocidal Cleansing Wars. In AD&D, gnomes were in the PHB, yet were specifically exterminated and excluded from the setting. As were kobolds, pixies (and similar fey), orcs, and goblins. There is precedent for not letting every dang thing have a place at the Dark Sun table.
Moral of the story, if it shows up in 4e Dark Sun, it will have been twisted like everything else and may in fact be unrecognizable from how it is used in other settings. I mean, heck, who could have imagined that halflings' famous appetites in traditional fantasy settings could get pushed that far!
Any Genasi can be explained as a descendant of a resident Elemental. Aasimar are just as likely to spring up as Tieflings, due to Dregoth's abduction habit. Gnomes are out, unless a whole village was abducted by Dregoth and set loose in Kragmorta. Even then, they wouldn't be real Athasian gnomes. The same goes for Orcs and Half-Orcs.
Basically, any race not originally found on Athas can be explained by the established facts of Dregoth's extra-planar abduction and experimentation scheme, and his habit of forgetting about his victims once he leaves them in Kragmorta, and the fact that he has been doing this for millennia.
Every race, except humans, that existed in 2e Dark Sun was a twisted version. Every dang one.
I agree with you 100%.. except, Humans where twisted in 2nd ed Dark Sun, check page 13 of the Original Box Sets Rules Book. It states that abusive magic has twisted human beings as much as any race.
"On Athas, centuries of abusive magic have not only scarred the landscape-they''ve twisted the essence of human appearance, as well. Many humans
in Dark Sun look normal, and could pass unnoticed among humans of the FORGOTTEN REALMS® o r G R E Y H A W K ® campaign settings. Others, however, have marked alterations to their appearance. Their facial features might be slightly bizarre; a large chin or nose, pointed ears, no facial hair, etc. Their coloration might be subtly different, such as coppery, golden brown, hueds of grey, or patchy. The differences may be more physical, such as webbed toes or fingers, longer or shorter limbs, etc. A player with a human character should be given broad latitude in making up these alterations to his form, if he so
wishes. Ultimately, none of them will give him any benefit nor any hindrance to game play-his appearance is strictly a roleplaying asset."
Most extraplanar races would have no problem going unnoticed on Athas. Magnus the Windsinger looked like a blue Slaad, minus the webbed hands. And nobody accused him of being from anywhere other than Athas. The Pristine Tower accounts for any type of appearance. Any race can be introduced into Dark Sun, and even given a long history there, without interfering with established facts and events of the setting.
They really need to get Brom to do most of the art. No, slight meant to the wonderful artists that currently do the art, but Brom pretty much set the mood of DS.
I'm going to have break out my old DOS Dark Sun games. I'm sure that they aren't as good as I remember them being.
And I never realized it before now, but Brom and Tim Truman design a lot of their characters similarly.
Show
I believe this is a halfing, but it's been a while:
I believe this is a halfing, but it's been a while:
Those of you that aren't, get to give the description.
I did like the Tribe of One series, can't remember who wrote them...
Simon Hawke is the name on the books.
Simon Hawke is the name on the books.
Thanks, I've always admired his work. Read the Time Wars series also. I will have to read Tribe of One again.
You do [ sblock] in front and [ /sblock] after, only without the spaces. Thanks.
To open, I like pretty much every idea I've read so far about how to creatively include races and classes in the new setting. If you've kept up with the setting through 3rd and 3.5, you've likely read alot of posts that offered truly AMAZINGLY INGENIOUS ideas for including everything from drow to goblins. This can be done with any setting obviously but since Dark Sun was so drastically different, it happened alot there.
That being said... when Dark Sun launched originally, it DID exclude CORE races and classes from 2E. But it also replaced them with verrry cool stuff. Maybe you won't get to play a tiefling. (I love tieflings) Maybe, it'll be a hyper intelligent Gith! *cringe* But I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if there are exclusions of core classes and races, it's not a horrible thing because there will likely be replacements. Secret replacements we don't even know about! *pant, pant*
And from the perspective of a gamer that's loved the setting since it came out, even with the exclusions in the original boxed set... look how many of us fell in love with it; still clinging to it even after over a decade has passed since the last hard copy hit the shelves. The exclusions didn't ruin anything, it made it different. And obvioulsy everyone ran rework it to counter the original "feel" of the setting.
Again, I'm impressed by the creativity expressed over including non-setting material. Some awesome ideas... but I fell in love with the original setting and if I get to run Dark Sun 4E, I'll run it as close to that as I can.
Peace.
oh can't wait to se what they do with belgoi in 4th ed, they are aweosme SOBs ;)
. . . cannibal halflings.
I've wondered if it was worth the effort to crusade over this error. But it seems I'd be having to chime in constantly in thread after thread.
Athasian halflings are not cannibals. Cannibals, by definition, eat the flesh of its own species. Athasian halflings do not eat other halflings. They just consider everyone else food; humans, elves, giants, etc.
Dark Sun as I remember it was very different from other game worlds. Equipment did not matter nearly as much as it did in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, or Eberron, etc. I will be very interested to see if the new Dark Sun keeps that low fantasy gritty feel wherein players gradually do more and more heinous things just to get enough drinking water, exult over gaining a normal steel blade, and pray to sorceror-kings because there are no gods to listen.
It's going to be a long year's wait.
that it is
There are no dragonborn on Athus.
I would be surprised if they do not add at least a few into athus.
I would not be a hard fit to say add them as pristine tower mutants or maybe gaurdians / worshipers of boris etc
If I were to work the Devas into the game, I would work them in as nature spirits as opposed to immortals. Basically they are innately tied to nature, and nature keeps them alive and effectively immortal. When they die, their bodies immediately decompose and return to the world, and nature itself rebuilds them anew elsewhere.
I kinda don't want them to keep the Deva tied to gods. Part of the fun with Dark Sun is the idea that the gods are gone/dead/never existed and the mortal races have to sort things out for themselves.
what if you make them the undying souls of the slaughtered races?
kind of like the last troll spirit that the sorc king from rise and fall of a sorcerer king carried.
just say that some of them being unable to reach there divine reward are stuck living life after life
Another possibility would be to have them be what they are in the core world. However, their old masters are now gone or dead. Devas could be slightly insane. What a curse it would be to be constantly reincarnated into a world that represents one of your greatest nightmares. If rakshashas didn't make the cut, what would the antithesis of devas be? Any ideas?
Devas could also be the reincarnations of failed avagnions. No avagnions existed as yet in the original box set, but surely there were many prior attempts. Devas could retain their innate goodness and be dogged by a sense of failure and despair.
I would be surprised if they do not add at least a few into athus.
I would not be a hard fit to say add them as pristine tower mutants or maybe gaurdians / worshipers of boris etc
Pterrans?
I would be surprised if they do not add at least a few into athus.
I would not be a hard fit to say add them as pristine tower mutants or maybe gaurdians / worshipers of boris etc
I see Dragonborn and Dray as being very close in theme etc, maybe give them an alternate racial power to Dragon breath though.
IIR theres been a grand total of 3 Avangions in Athas history. I'm thinking of making Devas an evil fey race with Nazi tendencies.
I'd be happy if avangions don't survive into 4e Dark Sun.
Dark Sun doesn't need angels around.
Avangions look like big, semitransparent wispy bugs that glow. More like a bug with its legs pulled off than anything. Never understood why just because their magic is regenerative and they are luminous qualifies them as an angel. Angels are bird-winged bipedal humanoids, at least they were when the Avangion was designed.
Avangions are just a force of regeneration and knowledge, the polar opposite of the Athasian Dragon and a necessary component of the balance between good and evil. I know that if someone told me that the only AB on Athas are Dragons, and that one must be a defiler to undergothe Metamorphosis, I wouldn't give Preserving a second thought. the Avangion transformation is the carrot on a stick for the Preserver/Psion with big plans. A chance to directly oppose the Dragon and restore the world.
Many people hate on Avangions because of the regenerative, hopeful angle. They say it ruins the flavor of Dark Sun, and violates the intent of the setting, blah blah.....But Dragon Kings was a VERY early and integral part of the setting (the 7th of about 32 products released), and the Avangion has been part of DS since 20% into the original 2E run. It's a foundation of the setting. Not only that, but for those who like to refer to the 'original concept' of the setting, you'd be playing in the Blue Age. DS was developed from the Blue Age forward.The original concept wasn't even a desert apocalyptic landscape. And every novel released for the setting has been about hope for a better world and fighting to make it hat way. Somehow, somewhere, somebody got it in their head that the only thing a DS campaign is good for is to make PCs miserable and show how horrid and unchangeable the world is. Sure, there's obstacles and setbacks, but else there'd be no story. But in the end, the theme of all the books and novels always had a very clear message - 'The bad guys wrecked the world. Save yourself, then kill them and try to fix the world". And you can't fix the world without an Avangion to directly reverse the damage defiling has done to the planet. And for those truly long and epic campaigns involving at least a few characters who aren't just interested in the limited gaming that saving one's own skin provides, fixing the world and AB transformations always come into the picture. Especially in 3.5E, with all the mega-powerful effects an AB can manifest. Any campaign involving characters of the appropriate strength and mix of levels will end up touching on AB transformations, eventually. Espcially the Avangion. Who wants to adventure alongside a proto-dragon, whose spells will suck out your life just as sureas that of your enemies?
An avangion is not an angel, . . .
They are angelic, with a DS twisted appearance like everything else. I think you are being too literal with regards to appearances being the definition.
Many people hate on Avangions because of the regenerative, hopeful angle. They say it ruins the flavor of Dark Sun, and violates the intent of the setting, blah blah...
Troy Denning is one of those who think it ruins the flavor. At least he was when I interviewed him years ago. He may have changed his opinion since then, I haven't spoken with him since then.
Yes, I know, Tim Brown wrote Dragon Kings. There were many things about the setting there were disagreements on, such as whether there really were ever deities.
IMO, the advent of avangions was a tragic case of compulsive symmetry that was unnecessary to the setting. IMO, preservers don't need a carrot equivalent to The Dragon achieve in order to want to fight The Dragon. The ever present threat of the Sorcerer Kings and The Dragon is enough to want to fight them. Arcane casters are hated, defilers are hunted even more than preservers were by everyone. The avangion barely a carrot at all compared to the kill-on-sight treatment defilers get from 99% of the populace everywhere.;)
IMO, the advent of avangions was a tragic case of compulsive symmetry that was unnecessary to the setting. IMO, preservers don't need a carrot equivalent to The Dragon achieve in order to want to fight The Dragon. The ever present threat of the Sorcerer Kings and The Dragon is enough to want to fight them. Arcane casters are hated, defilers are hunted even more than preservers were by everyone. The avangion barely a carrot at all compared to the kill-on-sight treatment defilers get from 99% of the populace everywhere.;)
I liked the fact that good duys had something to shoot for...I hated when there was one though...I think in the current (Ie 4e) we should have no living avangions, but an ed for PC to become one...
I think a PC trying to un eartht he secret of 'good' dragon kings is a great idea...I think having one is a bad idea...
I apologize for being late(2 weeks) as i'm new and what not. But i'm completely happy about Dark Sun getting to come back and shine it's dread and oppressive heat over this mortal world once again.
I'll continue the revived Dark Sun appreciation into the new forums.
So, new Dark Sun PC games as well? 
I am completely disapointed with the selection of Darksun as the next campaign settings. It's like the team is saying well we finally built the most comprehensive, balanced, well thought out RPG rules set, lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up.
Honestly, I think this world represents the worst kind of munchkin, hack and slash, ruleslawyery, broken game design ever published. This setting is about non-roleplay and just hacking at the next monster that comes along. Please, someone, anyone at wotc wake up and pull the brakes on this quick!
You sir are the yin to my yang (or is that the other way round). I agree hack'n'slash does happen ALOT on athas but that is what makes it so brutally beautiful.I must agree to disagree.
I am completely disapointed with the selection of Darksun as the next campaign settings. It's like the team is saying well we finally built the most comprehensive, balanced, well thought out RPG rules set, lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up
well hun, I have to disagree, Infact I had some bad 4e games, and was back in 3.5 when one of my friends told me this news that has me ready to try again...
I haven't played 4e as of yet but when Dark Sun comes out i'm definitely playing a half giant, thri-kreen,or defiler if that is allowed.
i have hope for thri-kreen and a defiling mechanic (feats or multi-class). I'm not so sure about half-giant but maybe they can have a mechanic different from goliath.
D-Mar,
um, no. Dark Sun wasn't munchkin unless the DM let it be munchkin!
I can't wait to buy the 4e DS Campaign Setting book, then harvest it for any useful fluff and plot elements, for my ongoing Pathfinder DS campaign.
Honestly, I think this world represents the worst kind of munchkin, hack and slash, ruleslawyery, broken game design ever published. This setting is about non-roleplay and just hacking at the next monster that comes along. Please, someone, anyone at wotc wake up and pull the brakes on this quick!
Wait...this is a joke, right?
I am completely disapointed with the selection of Darksun as the next campaign settings. It's like the team is saying well we finally built the most comprehensive, balanced, well thought out RPG rules set, lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up.
Honestly, I think this world represents the worst kind of munchkin, hack and slash, ruleslawyery, broken game design ever published. This setting is about non-roleplay and just hacking at the next monster that comes along. Please, someone, anyone at wotc wake up and pull the brakes on this quick!
Bologna. Dark Sun had some of the best RP potential of any world.
Anyway, i'm sure Dark Sun 4E will be balanced with the system. No more powerful stats or anything in the ''munchkin'' area.
lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up.
We already have half-giants. They're called Goliaths.
I am completely disapointed with the selection of Darksun as the next campaign settings. It's like the team is saying well we finally built the most comprehensive, balanced, well thought out RPG rules set, lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up.
Honestly, I think this world represents the worst kind of munchkin, hack and slash, ruleslawyery, broken game design ever published. This setting is about non-roleplay and just hacking at the next monster that comes along. Please, someone, anyone at wotc wake up and pull the brakes on this quick!
Wow, you so played in the wrong DS campaigns, then. Either that, or you never played DS, and decided without ever actually playing it, that it was "munchkin"
DS was anti-munchkin. Everything was far more dangerous, magic items were far more rare, even finding a regular metal weapon of any sort was a major accomplishment. Using arcane magic was dangerous to the caster, as the citizens would literally stone you to death for it. Elemental magics were dangerous, including druidic magics, because they could either be mistaken for arcane magics, or they'd draw attention from beings you REALLY don't want such attention from.
Roleplaying was an absolute must. If you couldn't successfully roleplay, you were very much doomed. Good luck surviving in a resource poor world if all you want to do is run around killing everything in sight.
Good luck surviving in cities at ALL if all you want to do is fight your way through encounters. Do you know that each city is led by one of the most powerful beings on the planet? And that they...kinda take it personally when you go around disrupting and destroying that which they've taken thousands of years to build up? Or when you kill their loyal templars? Or, really, threaten their power in any way, shape or form in a public manner? Or give their citizens hope of overthrowing their power?
Seriously, your post shows a profound ignorance of the Athasian setting. Most people, in my experience, who state what you've stated, never played in the setting, and base their opinion almost exlusively on the fact that characters started at 3rd level, and the races had more widely skewed stats than on other worlds. That starting point, that design behind 2E DS, has nothing to do with munchkinism. They were necessary for the setting to function as the game existed then.
The 3rd level starting point gave all characters sufficient hit points, etc, so that they could reasonably survive more than 10 minutes in-game (not required now, thanks to the front-heavy hit points design of 4E).
The more widely skewed stats were part and parcel of those older editions in general, and were nothing more than an extension of that design paradigm. All races recieved more bonuses AND more penalties, to show how Athas is a world of extremes. On top of that, the two races with the most impressive overall bonuses of stats and abiliies, half-giants and thri-kreen, BY FAR suffered from the worst...wait for it...wait for it...ROLEPLAYING penalties. Half-giants and thri-kreen were socially hamstrung in a great many ways, pretty much across the known world. If you never enforced the (oft-listed, rather sizable) roleplaying penalties each race suffered from, yeah, they might have seemed mildly overpowered when compared to the other races.
If you did play Dark Sun, I have no idea how you reached the above conclusions.
*shrug*
I am completely disapointed with the selection of Darksun as the next campaign settings. It's like the team is saying well we finally built the most comprehensive, balanced, well thought out RPG rules set, lets release the half giants and thrikreen to screw it all up.
Honestly, I think this world represents the worst kind of munchkin, hack and slash, ruleslawyery, broken game design ever published. This setting is about non-roleplay and just hacking at the next monster that comes along. Please, someone, anyone at wotc wake up and pull the brakes on this quick!
Wow, you so played in the wrong DS campaigns, then. Either that, or you never played DS, and decided without ever actually playing it, that it was "munchkin"
DS was anti-munchkin. Everything was far more dangerous, magic items were far more rare, even finding a regular metal weapon of any sort was a major accomplishment. Using arcane magic was dangerous to the caster, as the citizens would literally stone you to death for it. Elemental magics were dangerous, including druidic magics, because they could either be mistaken for arcane magics, or they'd draw attention from beings you REALLY don't want such attention from.
Roleplaying was an absolute must. If you couldn't successfully roleplay, you were very much doomed. Good luck surviving in a resource poor world if all you want to do is run around killing everything in sight.
Good luck surviving in cities at ALL if all you want to do is fight your way through encounters. Do you know that each city is led by one of the most powerful beings on the planet? And that they...kinda take it personally when you go around disrupting and destroying that which they've taken thousands of years to build up? Or when you kill their loyal templars? Or, really, threaten their power in any way, shape or form in a public manner? Or give their citizens hope of overthrowing their power?
Seriously, your post shows a profound ignorance of the Athasian setting. Most people, in my experience, who state what you've stated, never played in the setting, and base their opinion almost exlusively on the fact that characters started at 3rd level, and the races had more widely skewed stats than on other worlds. That starting point, that design behind 2E DS, has nothing to do with munchkinism. They were necessary for the setting to function as the game existed then.
The 3rd level starting point gave all characters sufficient hit points, etc, so that they could reasonably survive more than 10 minutes in-game (not required now, thanks to the front-heavy hit points design of 4E).
The more widely skewed stats were part and parcel of those older editions in general, and were nothing more than an extension of that design paradigm. All races recieved more bonuses AND more penalties, to show how Athas is a world of extremes. On top of that, the two races with the most impressive overall bonuses of stats and abiliies, half-giants and thri-kreen, BY FAR suffered from the worst...wait for it...wait for it...ROLEPLAYING penalties. Half-giants and thri-kreen were socially hamstrung in a great many ways, pretty much across the known world. If you never enforced the (oft-listed, rather sizable) roleplaying penalties each race suffered from, yeah, they might have seemed mildly overpowered when compared to the other races.
If you did play Dark Sun, I have no idea how you reached the above conclusions.
*shrug*
Ah the I can't possibly be wrong defense I see. Good choice, but slightly overused.
I played in a Darksun campaign. Back in college in '95 I think. As you can tell I didn't care for it. You might argue that the wrong DM was running it, but I also played in that DMs homebrew setting for years and I really liked that one. I know many many gamers do agree with my opinions of Darksun.
Actually, I think the fact that the world is resource poor adds to the overall oppressive feel of the world. The whole "o, what a dark and horrible world we live in" type stuff did not make the setting fun for me. For me it just begged the question why am I role playing in this miserable world when I could be role-playing in a world that my character enjoys? Also I think having an NPC demigod babysitter in each minor settlement of the world is a poor choice for two reasons. Firstly this is a resource poor world ... except for them, right cause obviously somehow they found the impossible path to success that my character can‘t cause… it says so in the campaign setting? Secondly, I think somehow it shows that the authors knew they were writing kids stuff and that the DM would need the baby sitters there to keep the players from destroying his game.
Now you admit that the races were over powered if you play them in different world. My main concern is that Darksun races and classes don‘t work in other settings. In every fourth edition book that is world specific it is decried that you can use anything in these books in any campaign setting and up till know I didn't have any problem with that. If anyone wanted to take something from the FR book and use it in my Eberron campaign it clicked right in.
Why are they writing a book now where I must one again start policing my players to make sure no game breaking races or classes make their way in to my campaign?
Twoard your other point, Half giants and Thrikreen had roleplaying penalties. Big deal, those players wouldn't roleplay anyway. Stuck with a challenging role play situation the Thrikreen would just eat the opposing NPC while the half giant would step on them. Then the demigod babysitter appears and smack the PCs around a little. Giving brick characters further roleplaying follies is not a problem for players that want to play muchkin races and classes anyway. They would probably just go get the mountain dew and Cheetos while the rest of the group did the role-playing.
I know I am probably coming off very confrontational here, in the end everyone has their own preferences at to what type of game they like. My only concern is that WOTC is going to loose sight of the interchangability in the 4e books and the excellent balance that has so far been so well established.
D-Mar: IMHO, i dont think Wizards will lose the compatibility mindset they have, maybe we wont see any Dark Sun PG and only one big Campaign Setting book if the rules arent so compatible.
D-Mar: OMHO, i dont think Wizards will lose the compatibility mindset they have, maybe we wont see any Dark Sun PG and only one big Campaign Setting book if the rules arent so compatible.
Here's hoping! We will see as they say. Perhaps we can get a boxed set out of them. I used to love those.
I think the old 2e character bump for Dark Sun has been addressed for all player characters acrosss the board in all settings for 4e. Dark Sun characters now have the hit points to survive their initial encounters and have bonuses to abilities with no accompanying penalties. There is no need to buff DS characters any further. However, there is also no reason that DS characters HAVE to appear in any other setting either. Artificers are cool in Eberron, but may not fit in with someones homebrew game. Spellscarred players are cool in FR, but may not fit in someone elses campaign. Same with DS. Mechanically a character might work, but thematically it might not fit. For those that want it, it's there. For those that don't, no problem, don't use it.
I think somebody just hates Dark Sun, period :p
Halfgiants have low Wisdow and Intelligent, this means they suck at psionics, at best, so they are very easily stunned or charmed or feared...plus they can't go into many small areas, consume a lot of water and their gear is very expensive.
Thri-Kreen can't wear armour or use some tiems, so undead used ot quickly level drain them etc.
And yes, roleplaying is crucial to Dark Sun! The Sorceror Kings mostly don't mind if you are Jack the Ripper, as long as you don't do it publicly. As I've frequently explained before, in one of my games, 2 PCs, preserver/weater cleric and a gladiator. The gladiator's player decided that since he just wanted to play a psychotic "munchkin-ish" killer, and he couldn't find a target for an assassination, he'd kill EVERYONE in the inn to make sure! So he poisoned their beer/water, set fire to the place and hacked them up as they escaped...
Not surprisngly, King Kalak had them hunted off Athas...and the gladiator's player? he got his wish..his character became the avatar of an evil god of slaughter, a supreme killer! And thus he lost his character who was now an NPC! Muhaha!
Oh and the pair got huntedout of Sigil as well, 'cause the spellcaster threw Fireballs into some fog clouds whenthey got ambushed by mindflayers and their henchmen...Fireballs fried dozens of innocent passersby which not surprsingly had the Lady of Pain piqued...
lol interesting campaign , very over the top and lots of lessons learned by players in ways far better than the DM just being a "stuffed shirt" ;)
I played in a Darksun campaign. Back in college in '95 I think. As you can tell I didn't care for it. You might argue that the wrong DM was running it, but I also played in that DMs homebrew setting for years and I really liked that one. I know many many gamers do agree with my opinions of Darksun.
Some DMs simply aren't good for some campaigns, while excellent at others. I've played with DMs who are horrible at high fantasy, yet you stick them into a superhero game, and voila, a really fun campaign. So yes, it's certainly possible.
I don't know if "many, many" gamer agree with you. That seems rather hyperbolic. Considering the overall positive response seen here, and on the other major RPG boards, I'd say, anecdotally, the opposite seems to be true. Of course, that is merely anecdotal evidence, so it only goes so far.
Actually, I think the fact that the world is resource poor adds to the overall oppressive feel of the world. The whole "o, what a dark and horrible world we live in" type stuff did not make the setting fun for me. For me it just begged the question why am I role playing in this miserable world when I could be role-playing in a world that my character enjoys? Also I think having an NPC demigod babysitter in each minor settlement of the world is a poor choice for two reasons. Firstly this is a resource poor world ... except for them, right cause obviously somehow they found the impossible path to success that my character can‘t cause… it says so in the campaign setting? Secondly, I think somehow it shows that the authors knew they were writing kids stuff and that the DM would need the baby sitters there to keep the players from destroying his game.
Why does anyone play in ANY post-apocalyptic setting, or any non-modern setting at all, for that matter? Because it differs from one's norm.
Yes, it is oppressive. That is quite the point. Some of us enjoy playing in a world that much more removed from reality. Where the PCs are often the rare point of hope in otherwise dystopian environs.
The sorcerer-monarchs are no better or worse NPCs than those of other worlds. The monarchs of ANY setting are supremely more powerful, overall, than a PC can generally hope to be. The archmages, ala Elminster, the Circle of Eight, the Simbul, et al, are generally much more powerful, behind the scene forces directing the world in ways the PCs can never hope to. That Athas' such NPCs happen to be the monarchs of city-states is simply a different means to the same general end as all such NPCs.
The sorcerer-monarchs hardly babysit anyone. On the contrary, they are generally far too busy for such nonsense. That is why they have large bureaucracies, full of characters of various levels of power and speciality.
Now you admit that the races were over powered if you play them in different world. My main concern is that Darksun races and classes don‘t work in other settings. In every fourth edition book that is world specific it is decried that you can use anything in these books in any campaign setting and up till know I didn't have any problem with that. If anyone wanted to take something from the FR book and use it in my Eberron campaign it clicked right in.
Did I say the races were overpowered if you played them in a different world? No, I most assuredly did not. Sorry. Nice try, putting words in my mouth. I said that the races were laid out in a more extreme version of the existing mechanisms. In other words, both a higher top end, and a lower bottom, in terms of raw stats. Yes, half-giants were stronger than races from other worlds. They were also much, much more mentally...challenged.
Sounds to me like you've played in too many games where raw combat ability is the end-all, be all of a character. If so, then yes, of course such races would be overpowered. Duh. That's why they have the aforementioned penalties. If you're playing in a game where those penalties are a non-factor, that's what you'll get. This can be applied to any given overall mechanism. If diplomatic, research, and other intellectual or social skills are much more important in a given campaign than combat skills, for example, races that specialize in such skills will seem overpowered when compared to the combat-oriented races, as they dramatically outshine said races.
Why are they writing a book now where I must one again start policing my players to make sure no game breaking races or classes make their way in to my campaign?
Who said there will be game breaking races or classes? First of all, the "starting at 3rd level" conundrum has been completely eliminated in 4E already, thanks to the front-loaded hit points design of the new system in general. Second, there are NO more racial penalties, at all, at least not as far as stats are concerned. So, the extremes possible in such a system aren't possible anymore. The top end and the bottom are both much more equalized. Even a simple +2 to one stat, -2 to another, led to a much more severe discrepancy in power. And that was for your average 2E/3E race. Since all races are now build using the same power curve, and racial penalties are nonexistant, all the Athasian races will fall within the same power curve as every other PC race.
Twoard your other point, Half giants and Thrikreen had roleplaying penalties. Big deal, those players wouldn't roleplay anyway. Stuck with a challenging role play situation the Thrikreen would just eat the opposing NPC while the half giant would step on them. Then the demigod babysitter appears and smack the PCs around a little. Giving brick characters further roleplaying follies is not a problem for players that want to play muchkin races and classes anyway. They would probably just go get the mountain dew and Cheetos while the rest of the group did the role-playing.
It is if your DM is remotely capable of making those penalties relevant. Demigod babysitter? Who needs a sorcerer-king or queen to show up, when a normal contigent of city-guard can take such a character down, hard. And on Athas, such a foolish PC is meat. No prison to escape from. No trial. You are killed. Period. Buh-bye. You kill the NPC in a world full of psionic characters, in a city where anyone would sell you out for some water, and you are in for a very short life indeed.
I know I am probably coming off very confrontational here, in the end everyone has their own preferences at to what type of game they like. My only concern is that WOTC is going to loose sight of the interchangability in the 4e books and the excellent balance that has so far been so well established.
Mechanics and fluff are now seperate entities in 4E. The crunch will mesh with the crunch for other worlds. The math won't change. It will be playtested, and likely already has been playtested, with the existing crunch, and won't deviate from said crunch.
The fluff, on the other hand, is where the differences will appear. Survivial-based mechanics will be more prevalent on Athas. Resources will be scarcer. Water will have a higher value, as it would in a desert environment within another campaign setting.
Moreover, the crunch that is more PREVALENT on Athas, and thus explored in more detail, for example, will now be laid out as a more thoroughly explored option for other campaigns. Sure, Faerun isn't an entire world full of deserts, and thus the environmental survival rules won't be as harsh as they are on Athas. But those rules, as they are likely to be presented in the Dark Sun books, can be utilized for an adventure taking place in Calimshan, for example.
Obviously, post-apocalyptic settings in general aren't your forte. C'est la vie. For many (not myself), a pulp setting wasn't to their liking. Thus, Eberron held no appeal. For others (again, not me), traditional high fantasy is dull, boring, and not worth the time. For others still (still not me), high seas adventures hold nothing, and such a campaign setting will have little to no value to such a player. Variety, however, is the spice of life. And WotC is far better off continuing to explore dramatically new design and world space with each campaign setting. Producing high fantasy setting after high fantasy setting simply doesn't do the 4E system justice. Each new campaign should bring with it as many unique, fresh options as is possible, in terms of both player-based mechanics, and DM-based mechanics.
Guys let it go; Dark Sun is not a religion that needs converts - if D-Mar is upset about Wizard's choice he can speak through his wallet rather than dragging people into debates about his dislike of the setting.
Dark Sun is a setting not to everyone's liking, simple as that.
Wow, you guys have no idea how awesome this news is to me. As not such an avid fan of 3.x D&D, and having recently tried 4e and enjoyed it at a con, I am really excited to hear about this. Currently I'm running a 2nd edition Dark Sun game that's been going since June, and my players really enjoy the setting. I actually got some of the 4e books hoping that at least a fan setting would come out, and jumped out of my chair when I saw there was going to be an official one!
I can't wait to see the previews of this, it's going to rule.
I never played the orig. DS but from what ive read online it sounds friggin awesome!
Apocalyptic landscape, morally ambiguous PCs, cannabil halflings
SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I think the fact that the world is resource poor adds to the overall oppressive feel of the world. The whole "o, what a dark and horrible world we live in" type stuff did not make the setting fun for me. For me it just begged the question why am I role playing in this miserable world when I could be role-playing in a world that my character enjoys?
For me, a pink world with magical items that grow in tree isnt a fun world. I do not have pleasure in having laxing DM that gives too much stuff. I have a real pleasure when I gain (as player) or when I give (as DM) a simple metallic weapon because it's hardness is greater than in wood, bones or rock. RP is all that matter, not something that look like Diablo or WoW.
I sincerly hope that this is not done. Dragonborn simply would not fit in the setting, the only beings that are draconic in nature are epic level defiler's. Deva's would also not fit in the setting because they are divine beings and an implement of their god. This does not work on Athus, because there are no gods. Rajaat is the closest thing to a god, and he's not exactly spawning any devas. Teiflings would not work in Dark Sun, either. There are no devil-ish entities to make pacts with. Goliaths would be ok, even if they weren't reflavored as Half-Giants, who knows what the wild wastes have spawned. Why is that every race must fit on every world, anyway?
What if Devas were insane?
I left this forum with the forum reorganization (I think it was in 2007) where all old setting were put together (it was horrible). I thought: Oh my God, they are going to abandon DS completely. Seems like I was wrong, and therefore here I am again.
Wizards I thank you!!!
Definetly on my wishlist in 2010. Already the cover is looking very promising, (does Brom know this?).
What makes DND worlds different is that they are indeed different from each other. That means races and classes present in one world might not be found in another. I really doubt we will see Paladins in this world, as there are no real lawful good guys. Most people are tied up into survival to worry about following that alignment thing. Dragonborn and gnomes have no place, they are replaced by half giants and thrikreen. Sometimes things dont happen the way you want them too. As a veteran DM I would not allow non-DS races at all as PCs, just like in my normal world games, certain races cannot be certain classes(Ie. dwarven wizards do not exist).
Allowing them would dilute the alien feel of the world and make it like any other world in the DND realm.
I seem to recall the mention of a dragonborn like race in this thread that exists in Dark Sun.
Also paladins are not required to be of any alignment in 4E so it isn't an issue.
Except there are no divine gods to give them power. You already have clerics harnessing the elements and the elements are not lawful by any means, thus no pally. Every campaign setting cannot have everything, thats frikkin stupid.
Regardless of what was mentioned, there are no dragonborn because there are no dragons. THE Dragon is more of a diety type creature, I seem to remember reading 20 odd years ago that the Dragon wasnt even a dragon in the normal sense.
The classes they should get rid of: Paladins, warlocks, monks(I dont remember if they added them in 4th or not, I never allowed them in my games anyway).
Classes to be drastically changed: Wizards(change to Preserver and defiler), clerics(elemental changes), bards and any other arcane spell using class(remove spells and replace with non-magic abilities)
Classes to be added: Gladiator, templar
Standard races that should be in: Thri-kreen, Half-giants, those Pterosaur flying guys, Muls
Races to remove since they are absolutely not there at all: Gnomes, eldaren(sp?), dragonborn, any of the planar races, any of the elf subraces, half -orcs.
Change the Encounter Power of Dragonborn and they can easily fit in Pterran and Dray place. Pterrax wasn't a PC race but Aarakocra was but i dont see them return.
Athasian Elf will need to have a bonus in Intelligence instead of Wisdom a kind of mix between the Eladrin and the elf.
No Shifter, Half-Orc, Minotaur, Gnoll, Gnome, for sure. But other can be twist to feel Darksunish.
If they refocus Deva as Pyreen that will be great.
Avenger (Water, Air), Paladin (Fire, Earth) and Invoker (especially Fire) can fit as good as Cleric (Any) with an Element to worship. STOP putting Lawful or Good with Paladin, now they can be of ANY alignment, they are bodyguards and crusaders with a cause.
I want for Dark Sun 4E to not be a complete Copy-Paste of 2nd Edition original box. I want some new stuff and some cool stuff that was create for 4E in it.
I want for Dark Sun 4E to not be a complete Copy-Paste of 2nd Edition original box. I want some new stuff and some cool stuff that was create for 4E in it.
This is truth, right here. Creativity is good. Change can be good, and is necessary. 4E has cool stuff, let's use it in Dark Sun.
While people seem to want to ban all these races, I sit here thinking of how to fit them into a Dark Sun campaign and have them cool and appropriate, instead of just denying. I assume people who just say, "No, not appropriate" are somehow having fun in their games, but I prefer to exercise a little more creativity to let people play the character they want to play AND fit it into the setting.
But maybe that's just me.
No that's not you, it's the Mindset for 4E.
Setting: Setting are sandbox now. No metaplot, no novels advance the timeline. So even Forgotten Realms can be change/destroy in part and no one will care except the DM's gaming group. That give complete power to the DM creativity since no supplement will cause trouble. Dark Sun will be the same with the original timeline setting. Fan who like the old Revised box, will now be able to advance it as they like with the changes they like.
Races/Classes: Dark Sun will propose what's fit and what's rare, uncommon or common for races and classes. Even Eberron have stuff that are much unique to pc like Genasi. Since the keep the Dark Sun feeling, i'm sure we will see lot of text-in-box for ''PC with Dm approval only'' stuff. But i expect 4E Psionic Monk to fit in Dark Sun. And maybe EVEN a box with Defiling Swordmage (since they are ''elemental'').
I knew they had taken away the good only part of pallies, but they also took away the class defining discipline of having to be lawful too? WTF? What the hell is the difference bewtween them and a fighter now. I hate 4th.
Hoping they dont mess up DS, because if they do it right it has the potential to make me like the edition, if they dumb it down to kindergarden WOW like the rest of 4th, I'll just play 3.5 with everyone else.
And when i say everyone else, I mean its hard to find a 4th group, everyone still plays 3.5 for the most part.
I was never a fan of alignment so i'm ok with the simple Lawful Good - Good - Unaligned - Evil - Chaotic Evil axis.
Lawful and Chaotic are now only the end of the spectrum, so you can't have a class who need to be Chaotic or Lawful.
I am a fan of alignment and sitll keep Lawful Evil etc, for lots of reasons, but I agree paladins should neve rhave bene "lawful Good" only. it's about a belief and devotion to an ethos, not being "mr Goody Two Shoes" ;)
Paldins make perfectly good sense as devoted champions of the Sorceror Kings, elements, OR those opposed to the Sorceror Kings.
Remember, a lot of folk will actually think the sorceror kings are gods, or mythical beings, because they've got damn good reaosn to believe such, hehe! :D
it's easy to forget how fanatical real life folk can be...now imagine when they have REAL proof of a being's supernatural might...
Paladins and clerics aren't the same. Paladin's are 1st and foremost "kick ass and take names!" by raw force of arms, fortified by a ferocious will. Clerics are abut deep devotion granting supernatural power.
I knew they had taken away the good only part of pallies, but they also took away the class defining discipline of having to be lawful too? WTF? What the hell is the difference bewtween them and a fighter now. I hate 4th.
Hoping they dont mess up DS, because if they do it right it has the potential to make me like the edition, if they dumb it down to kindergarden WOW like the rest of 4th, I'll just play 3.5 with everyone else.
And when i say everyone else, I mean its hard to find a 4th group, everyone still plays 3.5 for the most part.
Then you're going to be disappointed. Stick with 3.5, as it makes you happy.
I mean, I play 4E and love it, but clearly you don't. So play what you like to play, and be assured that given your attitude towards 4E as it stands now, you will be disappointed with Dark Sun.
Part of what makes Dark Sun so great IS that it won't be what everyone wants. The point is, in part, to be different. No deities, crazy transmuted races, new takes on magic, slave-no-metal-no-typical-monsters setting... this isn't meant to be for everyone.
When I first read the box set back then I was appalled. It sounded like munchkin city and nothing like what I wanted to DM. So, my players bought the set for me. Thus began the road to loving this setting more than any, even my beloved Greyhawk.
I'm pretty excited to have some rules for 4E. The previous official rules were lacking. The net stuff was great, but hard to really use for a campaign with players. This will give a lot of players the ability to try something out. I am glad they are re-casting the history so that players get to experience the sweet spot, before the novels. And, I hope the designers will limit what can be brought into the setting (please, no gods, no warforged, etc.) and, to at least some extent, limit what can be exported into LFR and any other living campaigns. The crystal sphere was closed then, and I hope it can stay closed again!
Teos