"Death is but a doorway....to a GOD!"
"And after strange aeons, even death may die!"
And yes, it has....
Raise hands and show support for the mighty Kalak, whom death has not claimed, but merely revealed those unworthy of his shadow!
let not Kalak, Tyrant of Tyr, fall like some leaf from a withered tree, but support his oncoming storm of VENEGANCE!!
DEATH TO THE USURPERS!
DEATH TO THE TEMPLARS WHO BETRAYED THEIR LORD!
DEATH TO THE SLAVE SCUM WHO THINK THEMSELVES FREE!
MUHAHA!!!
Ahem, *leaves maniacal Templar character mode*
in other words....who says Kalak really IS dead, in your campaign? ;)
The old setting's mention that Kalak's body went missing after his death, eck, mention of anything at all related to Kalak's body, was a bad move disguised as a fun tidbit: Kalak died, instead of perhaps disappearing in a poof of red smoke as the revolutionaries were upon him, or whatever scenario one could imagine.
AFAIK the new setting will only mention he's dead at the hands of slaves, which leaves doors wide open for his later reappearance in some creative fashion.
Hurray for Kalak!
While Kalak isn't yet dead in my game, I just have to know what people have against him and contingency spells?
The dead of a SK is a fundamental event to set the DS mood for me; it empowers the players with the perspective of having a chance to fight back in case it's needed, and it brings an element of uncertainity and chaos to a setting was only flaw is (potentially) predictability.
A setting where evil won and evil rules and evil is invincibile is... safe. There can't be war. There can't be conflict. A theme of DS is surviving, but in a world where SKs can't die, there's ONLY surviving.
So Kalak is dead for me, because his death brings thrills to the setting, and makes it a much more dangerous place.
But, I like idea that Kalak has somehow survived his assassination. I imagine him beaten, stabbed, hovering at death's door. He would be severely injured, perhaps lost most of his power during failed transformation, but still evil and mad with rage. Hmmm, inspiring.
But one day, he will rise again!!!
I can see if Kalak became undead and had a small, underground following of Templars how gain power as Kalak as found a use for his vortex to grant them spells.
The BBEG could walk, talk and act like kalak, using magic and psionics, but only be heroic or early paragon. So the players could get the feeling of fighting a sorcerer king at a very low level and then find out that, "it was the one armed changeling with the lifegraft."
Or, kalak could be a revenant.
"Dregoth will never become a god - at least not on Athas. Athas has never had any gods, and it never will. Why this is may never be completely understood, but the fact is that the conduits that allow gods (or powers, as they're called elsewhere) to draw strength from their worshipers simply don't exist on Athas. Nomatter what Dregoth does, he won't be able to change that fact. Without these spiritiual conduits, divine power can't be attained." - City by the Silt Sea, Campaign Book Pg. 90
If Dregoth can't do it, then certainly Kalak can't either. Dregoth even traveled to other realms using his planar gate to study those "Gods." Nobody can be a god on Athas. They'll have to go to another realm to make that happen. However if you want Kalak to survive, that's entirely upon you and your campaign.
However, in 4e, this,
6. The Gods Are Silent
Long ago, when the planet was green, the brutal might of the primordials overcame the gods. Today, Athas is a world without deities. There are no clerics, no paladins, and no prophets or religious orders. Old shrines and crumbling temples lie amid the ancient ruins, testimony to a time when the gods spoke to the people of Athas. Nothing is heard now but the sighing of the desert wind.
In the absence of divine influence, other powers have come to prominence in the world. Psionic power is well known and widely practiced on Athas; even unintelligent desert monsters can have deadly psionic abilities. Shamans and druids call upon the primal powers of the world, which are often sculpted by the influence of elemental power.
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
So, there were Gods in 4e, but the "Primordials" over came them...if Gods existed in the past, then surely they can exist again.
PS: I'm very anti-cannon; I believe every DS game should be whatever the DM and the players agree to. I like to leave room for imagination and not strict cannon that must be followed.
Now that I've said that...let's see if someone can include dead gods in the Green Age.
So, there were Gods in 4e, but the "Primordials" over came them...if Gods existed in the past, then surely they can exist again.
Is the primordials versus gods a cannon of 4th edition cosmology? Similar back story is provided with Forgotten realms setting, but in Faerun it's the gods, who achieved victory. How it is in Eberron?
That said, in general, Gods vs. Primordials is something of a standard for 4e; it's the default assumption for Points of Light, it's a retcon for Faerun, and Athas is going to be retconned into a world where the Primordials won the Dawn War.
I'm excluding the dawn war/PoL lore in my darksun. This is one setting I won't run watered down.
I'm excluding the dawn war/PoL lore in my darksun. This is one setting I won't run watered down.
What are you using for the "genesis" of Athas?
I guess for those who don't want to PoL-lute their DS, the field will be divided among those who will go for the classic explanation that Athas is disconnected from the cosmology and fundamentally is "just a planet" with some quite alien fauna, and those who will find ways to eradicate the existing pantheon of divinities from the setting.
In a way I like the integration of the Dawn War in Athas because it's thematically proper; Athas is a planet where it all went wrong from the start, and then it got worse. It fits, even if I'm also very fond of the 2nd edition theme of having Athas being a post apocalyptic world set on a planet that used to be a paradise.
Actually, is the implication of the Primordials winning the Dawn War even compatible with the Rajaat storyline? If Primordials won and Athas has always been one hell of a planet (literally), how can that be compatible with the Blue/Green Age lore?
Every piece of info hinted by WotC seem to point at the fact that we WON'T hear anything of Rajaat in the campaign setting.
Athas can just "be", no one knows how or why, maybe the SKs, it doesn't really matter a damn, because most oflk will never know or be affected by the past ;)
As I've said before I see Athas as very "Clark Ashton Smith", influenced by Barsoom, the early "Gor" stories, Conan etc
it is an ancient, weird, mysterious. My probable history was heavily influenced by the mind flayers attempt to darken the Sun
or, maybe that is all wrong. who knows? Anything is possible...
Say Dregoth found an artifact that let him get close to God-hood; that is for every follower that has faith in him, he gains powers and can in turn, grant his followers powers.
Or perhaps, he founds one of the "Forgotten" Gods and realizes they are only immortal beings like himself.
Dregoth's quest reminds me of the Epic of Gilgamesh; he's searching for something he may never have like Gilgamesh and immortality. Dregoth is looking for true immortality. The Dragon-Kings aren't immortal; they're just powerful beings.
Abstract thoughts, such as if there are Gods, shouldn't be a part of Athasian thinking; you're too busy trying to survive!!!
??? Such philosophical thoughts are entirely natural, even if complete fantasy. Look at when the notion of "gods" arose in our own, real primate mankind: In prehistory, with people attributing anthropomorphic qualities to natural phenomena. During times when survival against the elements, against other tribes, against wild animals quite capable of killing humans with ease, before we had advanced too far, technologically or socially. Early shamanism and animism certainly qualify, and are along the same philosophical lines of inquiry, leading to codification of names and personalities behind each natural concept. Thus are polytheistic structures created.
Gods can and should be a part of Athasian thinking. As far as we can tell, humans (and by extension, beings that think like humans do) anthropomorphize animals, object, weather patterns, environments, celestial bodies, et al. It is a way to put something alien into a perspective one is more comfortable with.
The difference on Athas, however, compared to other D&D worlds? Gods aren't actually there, and do not answer the thoughts and dreams of their followers, respond in any way, etc. There are no real gods, there are only gods in the same sense the gods of our own Earth exist: They are purely within the mind, and spread via the biases inherent to certain cultures, regions, races or specific locales. One ingrained in the minds of populations after a handful of generations, the weight of such cultural bias is extraordinarily difficult to overcome. Even with ample evidence contradicting such a world view.
Struggling to survive is hardly a deterrent. Look, again, to the real world. Extreme hardship will often, albiet not always, strengthen such theist-centric views, as opposed to cause them to waver. Confirmation bias is a very powerful psychological phenomenon. This is how ultra-religious people who see evidence utterly undermining their position instead see that evidence as proving their position as valid. They conform the evidence available to their own biased perception of reality in their own head, rather than rationally conform their view of reality to the evidence available. Telling someone who utterly believes their world view to be correct that they are wrong, or, worse, providing actual evidence, only increases the faith, quite often.
Thus, I see absolutely nothing to disuade Athasians from worshiping various gods or godlike concept (elements, the Sorcerer-Monarchs, etc). Nothing whatsoever. The only thing I would say is that, due to the spread-out nature of Athasian life, Athasian religions would be much more like ancient Earth religions. Each and every city-state, village, and overarching region would have its own sets of gods or variations on gods. Regions close to one another will be similar, but the details will differ the further you travel from whatever spot you currently occupy.
Survival is as much a deterrent to superstitious and supernatural pontifications as it is to observing the stars and moons, the seasons, to engaging in artistic pursuits, to playing games, etc. These are all quite ingrained in minds that function on a level of self-awareness human minds do.
However, there's two differences; one is higher intelligence stats and pscionics. Higher intelligence means instead of spending their time praying to Aqua, the God of Water, they search for signs of water like a dry creek bed or a fault zone. All being psychic, may effect how they perceive the supernatural.
Elemential magic can easily be seen as from a God; what if a fire elemential cleric insisted his powers came from Vulcan, the God of Fire?
What if you had a small village that had a Druid that worshipped a Spirit of the Land that sacrificed a Defiler to the SotL for it to use some of it's powers to help the village.
Even though I'm a Christian, I actually don't have any problem with Tectuktitlay's post. I agree with it.
Let's look at where some of the more influential religions and worldviews often considered religions come from:
Judaism, Christianity, Islam - Palestine and Arabia, just missing the Fertile Crescent.
Zoroastrianism - Afghanistan.
Hinduism - If you asked Max Muller, the first translator of many Hindu texts into English, what the Rig Veda was about, he'd sum it up as a bunch of poems asking various parts of the weather not to completely blast the crops because (Mel Gibson) you, I'm Indra, that's why.
Buddhism - Gautama had it very good, and really only started looking for answers to the big questions when survival was thrown in his face.
Confucianism, Taoism, traditional Chinese religion - Up until fairly recently in their history, China's view of itself was very much Points (er, Point) of Light, China was a reflection of Heaven on Earth, everywhere else was a complete stink hole. And the Emperor was who you had to thank for that (depending on who you asked, the emperor received his authority from God being happy with the point of light being maintained, being adopted as God's son, or because his will is part of the universal Tao). Neighboring areas (the Khmer empire, Japan), went with "our emperor is descended from the gods."
Except for east Asia, these religions developed because the world was not a nice place. And in the case of east Asia, religion still developed to thank the emperor for their point of light.
Look at the wealthier parts of the world, the US, Europe, and Japan - traditional religious values are being ignored, usually not in the name of science (otherwise, Teilhard de Chardin, Ray Kurzweil, Nikolai Fyodorovich Fyodorov, and P.K. Dick would be our era's Augustine, Maimonides, Luther, and Lewis). Instead, it is ignored in favor of reality TV, consumerism (be it a "health food" store or Walmart), and ignorant political fury. When religion is being focused on, it's often in the guise of consumerism (be it some flakey hippie selling energy crystals or some televangelist fleecing the flock out of their social security checks as effectively as any antichrist), or ignorant political fury.
In short, religiousity and the drive for survival actually appear to be related. Likely because the parts of our mind that let us come up with advanced hunting tactics, agriculture, or civilization, are probably the same things that make us ask what exactly makes our meat machines work, if there's something better and smarter than us, etc (if you're gonna believe there's a God, you're gonna believe there's a saber tooth tiger around the corner; if you're gonna believe there's an afterlife, you're gonna believe that saber tooth tiger can send you there). Regardless of the effects of worship (or lack of effects), it would actually be less plausible for there not to be some citizens of Tyr that would believe Kalak ascended to Godhood, or had been resurrected but was waiting for an appropriate time to strike or to spread his teachings.
EDIT:
Regarding not praying to a god of water and going to look for water instead because of higher intelligence: it wouldn't necessarily mean that superstitions would be less common, just that the less effective superstitions would be weeded out sooner. Athasians tend to have higher Int scores, but are still less educated, so while their methods of finding water bear more resemblance to geological surveying than dowsing, people would understand them as "omens that water is this way." Knowledge of how to find water would be powerful, and not given out freely, so individuals that know these little signs would be seen as having a magic sight. Same thing happened a long time ago in our world, astronomers were better able to keep track of what time of the year it was than the common person, so they had a better idea of when to plant, and people assumed that the randomly arranged stars just told them.
Regarding elemental magic being seen as coming from a god: the fire priest theology from Earth, Air, Fire, and Water is pretty much taken from Heraclitus, with a dash of Zoroastrianism.
I don't worry about what the player characters may never know. The pastcivilizations and ancient history is a complete mystery to athasians, and with the way life is in the tablelands, people won't often be capable of learning about things like the elemental chaos, astal sea or the creation of existence. That's all motivation, flavor and color for the DM. None of it is required and mostly wasted effort when it comes to the player characters. I'll decide what I'd like to use from the 4e book coming out, but I'm sticking pretty close to the 2e lore, for now.
As for the whole blue/green age. The BSA doesn't say anything about the blue age, only the green age. So I assume any impact the primordials have in official 4e DS will be after the blue age. Although, if you follow the core PoL, halflings are probably not the first race. Which I doubt wotc changed. I think they probably changed the PoL lore to fit athas and give it a unique spin, as darksun does with everything.
For now, I'm rejecting the new lore but taking a "wait and see" stance. Maybe I'll like the new story enough as-is, maybe I'll like bits and pieces or maybe I'll consider it official homebrew and ban it from my games. I'll know next month! (WOOHOO DS!)
look back to World War2. Hittler was evil, but his cult and his mesmeric speeches literally had folk worshipping him, they died for him...
In occupied areas, many happily became traitors. Not coerced, but happily embraced Nazism.
Now, consider why, and dont' be childish and simple about it. Much as I loathe those SOBs, to many folk, they offered real power, safety, national pride, way to attack "enemies", a literal living god for some, etc tec.
now, in Athas, with very little in the way of morality beyond the basic "don't get yer neighbour mad at you", no Chrtisianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrinism, no hindsight of the Holocaust, no understanding of what monsters the SKs are...DAMN RIGHT folk would worship them and/or suck up tot hem
in terms of betrayal etc.
the SKs are capable of slaughtering vast numbers of people by their own hand, would you, in RL take someone lightly who could throw freakin mortar shells and lasers at whim from his own hands, or even mini-nukes? hell NO!
but, the SKs do also provide a "safe" lawful environment ot thrive and survive..for some.
in my DS, cults actively worship or viciously support the SKs. And in return they often get get favours, better treatment etc
Templars have plenty of spies and thugs if they need 'em!
then you have the "Gestapo" effect.
it's all very well acting brave and smug in countries that never had those, or the NKVD, Inquisition, or whatever, to think YOU wouldn't kow-tow, you would be in the resistance.
HA, lot of folk were terrified. No bloody wonder! very horrible what went on.
Imagine the GEstapo with psionics and rituals...urf!!
fortunately, Athas lacks the technology, the mechanized, scientific integration and common use of logic, or the Veilied alliance wouldn't stand a tinkers cuss.
logic is a difficult thing to grasp for those not brought up with it or having a logical mindset, or for those with it to udnerstand those without it.
Even now, many folk in so-called "modern nations" in general, can't actually think logically, you'd be suprised at the gross stupidity that goes,sigh.
It's not an insult, just way it is, and dictators make damn sure they are indoctrinated and made to think in illogical ways.
This is why the SKs make writing illegal: ignorant folk are easy to control! politicla tool Stalin, Mao and many others, including the West, used very well.
somethings ot think on, and why Dark SUn would be really vicious.
I don't worry about what the player characters may never know. The pastcivilizations and ancient history is a complete mystery to athasians, and with the way life is in the tablelands, people won't often be capable of learning about things like the elemental chaos, astal sea or the creation of existence. That's all motivation, flavor and color for the DM. None of it is required and mostly wasted effort when it comes to the player characters. I'll decide what I'd like to use from the 4e book coming out, but I'm sticking pretty close to the 2e lore, for now.
As for the whole blue/green age. The BSA doesn't say anything about the blue age, only the green age. So I assume any impact the primordials have in official 4e DS will be after the blue age. Although, if you follow the core PoL, halflings are probably not the first race. Which I doubt wotc changed. I think they probably changed the PoL lore to fit athas and give it a unique spin, as darksun does with everything.
For now, I'm rejecting the new lore but taking a "wait and see" stance. Maybe I'll like the new story enough as-is, maybe I'll like bits and pieces or maybe I'll consider it official homebrew and ban it from my games. I'll know next month! (WOOHOO DS!)
I think people needs to take a reality check and realize this is 4TH EDITION Dark Sun.
4TH EDITION.
The edition were Tiamat is statted and badass but still plenty killable by a prepared party. Where Tarrasques are entry level epic content. Where Lolth is killable. Were Cyric would probably be an appropriate challenge for a lvl 25 party.
Athas will be no different. The heroic tier will be all about surviving. Once you're on paragon, the desert is a piece of cake. You're traveling without much hazard (certainly with more hazard than other gaming worlds, but still traveling stops being an issue, the destination is, like in every other setting).
Yes, the average Athasian will never know history; but the players aren't average Athasians. Unless you plan to kill your games around lvl 12 and start over again every time, eventually your players will become more powerful than Sorcerer Kings. We can already predict we will have SKs being statted as Elite monsters of level 21 or higher; I don't expect many to be in the upper echelon of the epic tier. Most SKs will be killable in late paragon. If your game gets to epic, your characters will have a shot at killing the Dragon, and probably you (or WotC) will need to provide harder content for your players to explore. I'm expecting Borys (if he's called Borys) to be statted as a powerful solo, but I don't expect him to be anywhere near Tiamat or Bahamut in terms of sheer challenge, and both those gods are quite killable.
Sure, you can decide as a DM that in your game, SKs are "too smart" or whatever fictional device you want to invent to prevent your players from doing what would be natural (killing a fairly unchallenging enemy); as I said, you can kill your games before it becomes an issue. But not only that would ironically lead to a DS were PCs are less powerful than in other worlds (the opposite of the theme of the setting), but also WotC will need to provide a setting that still works at epic level. And if all SKs look like Nibenay, there will need to be an large number of much, much more powerful things on Athas, and possibly ancient things and things that know stuff.
The biggest issue I experienced with DS in 2nd edition was games breaking up after a certain level; once the world stopped to be the biggest enemy and DMs needed to provide more, the game became complex to handle. Very few DMs agreed with seeing players challenge their "pet" SKs, or even worse the Dragon, so at some point the game had to be resetted because it became impossible to progress since players wanted to keep growing and DMs didn't know where to send them.
This cannot be the case with 4th edition: the setting is blatantly built on the idea that everything is killable (gods are statted), and from what we saw of SKs, they will be killable fairly soon in the Epic curve. There must be more to Athas, in 4th edition, and I'm actually curious about what it will be.
pardon my laughter, but they were all statable and killable in PREVIOUS editions AS WELL! lol ;)
the Dragon is stated in the first boxed set iirc.
Lolth was in the original Deities & Demigods en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolth
etc so you are *WRONG*
so, this is no new 4th ed thing, please don't go down that road blaming the edition.
Nibenay is a lvl 29 elite controller, fyi
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
"unhallenging" haha yeah, riiiight
SK + his guards etc = very VERY hard.
the wastelands of Athas will alway sbe dangerous, given there are drakes etc wandering out there.
and ye sthe point is the adventure at the end of many games, so you don't want the party killed before then, lol, but hey never let stupidity go unpunished ;)
ie if the party is determined ot be dumb, let Darwinism deal with em, lol. most players aren't that silly thankfully.
VisanidethDM
pardon my laughter, but they were all statable and killable in PREVIOUS editions AS WELL! lol ;)
the Dragon is stated in the first boxed set iirc.
Lolth was in the original Deities & Demigods en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolth
etc so you are *WRONG*
so, this is no new 4th ed thing, please don't go down that road blaming the edition.
I'm not "blaming" the edition - personally I love the 4th approach to deities and powers and find it superior to all past ones.
However, looking back at the previous editions:
1st/2nd edition: deities and powers were more often than not statted; as far as being killable, that was another topic entirely. The way past editions worked made character progression nonlinear - past level 10 you wouldn't really become "stronger" in any appreciable way aside from gaining magical potency, both innate and in equipment. As such, it all depended on how generous your DM was, and so, in most games deities were unkillable unless the DM wanted so.
3rd edition: deities and powers were statted but unkillable. Deities in 3rd edition were overloaded with redundant or completely preposterous abilities that led to them being unable to be surprised, all of them being melee monsters with the HP of 5 ancient red dragons, more immunities that you could shake a stick at and a series of "when I die I won't die but you will" rules long like my arm.
3rd edition deity stats were a colossal waste of space, as in the end all deities were identical for 90% of the statblocks and 90% of that 90% was about making it impossible to actually fight the deity.
4th edition: here deities are killable by non-optimized parties. Bad parties will die, undergeared parties will die, but a group of players playing legitimate, rp-first optimization-later characters WILL manage to kill deities if they play right. The difference with the past is colossal. Most deities are actually fairly easy for a char-op build party.
Nibenay is a lvl 29 elite controller, fyi
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
"unhallenging" haha yeah, riiiight
I know Nibenay's stats. A single character from the char-op board can drop him in a turn, more or less.
Will he be challenging for a non-optimized lvl 24-25 group with rolled/DM-assigned magic items? For sure, but even then, compared to an ancient dragon or a tarrasque, he's a piece of cake.
A group of optimized characters? They'll eat him for breakfast. Heck, they will probably barely notice he's there at all.
SK + his guards etc = very VERY hard.
It depends. For the average party? Probably yes. For a group prepared enough to have a shot at Lolth or Tiamat? He's warmup.
And notice how Nibenay is the most powerful non-Dragon SK. The others will be even easier than him, and since depending on how good your builds and gear is monsters become doable more or less 5 levels before you match theirs, I wouldn't be surprised if prepared parties could start taking SKs in late Paragon.
the wastelands of Athas will alway sbe dangerous, given there are drakes etc wandering out there.
and ye sthe point is the adventure at the end of many games, so you don't want the party killed before then, lol, but hey never let stupidity go unpunished ;)
I said in the other thread, here we will be able to play tricks and kill the suspension of disbelief.
However, it's illogical that a world were hundreds of thousands of level 1 characters manage to survive is still as dangerous for a lvl 20 party. Yes, you can always have random encounters appropriate for the levels (under the assumption mobs are selective and focus on parties that have a fair chance, ie lvl 20 mobs only pick on high level people) but eventually the game will break.
Athas is always deadly. At heroic tier, it is because the desert is full of monsters and water is scarce and food fights back. At level 20, it is because you're digging ancient ruins and fighting liches in underground zigguraths and squaring it off with the Dragon. And the new setting book will have to manage to escalate the hazards of Athas through the various gaming tiers in a logical and workable way.
The heroic tier will be all about surviving. Once you're on paragon, the desert is a piece of cake. You're traveling without much hazard (certainly with more hazard than other gaming worlds, but still traveling stops being an issue, the destination is, like in every other setting).
I disagree. Paragon characters are anything but all powerful. I'v played in paragon plenty of times and Paragon characters face basically the same things heroic tier characters do, except higher level. Traps and hazards can still be lethal. The desert can still kill if you don't have food and water. Paragon = kings and champions, but kings andchampions die just like anyone else.
Yes, the average Athasian will never know history; but the players aren't average Athasians. Unless you plan to kill your games around lvl 12 and start over again every time, eventually your players will become more powerful than Sorcerer Kings.
I agree, the players aren't average, they're exceptional, but exceptional doesn't require knowledge or discovery of every mystery and secret in the game. As for becoming more powerful than the SKs, that's late epic and by then I'll have what I need ready. They still won't know all the mysteries, but they will learn things appropriate for athas. I'm not sure how the planes work yet, so I'm not even going to think about it til I see it. But epic probably isn't going to be like it plays in other settings. At least in my darksun, there are no gods beyond the typical athasian baddies. (sks, dragon, elemental entities and so on)
We can already predict we will have SKs being statted as Elite monsters of level 21 or higher; I don't expect many to be in the upper echelon of the epic tier. Most SKs will be killable in late paragon. If your game gets to epic, your characters will have a shot at killing the Dragon, and probably you (or WotC) will need to provide harder content for your players to explore. I'm expecting Borys (if he's called Borys) to be statted as a powerful solo, but I don't expect him to be anywhere near Tiamat or Bahamut in terms of sheer challenge, and both those gods are quite killable.
My sks and the dragon will have clones, contingency spells that remove them at bloodied to a safe sanctuary and so many other ways to keep themselves alive that killing a SK will either be the objective of a campaign or not possible. This way I can throw the players up against the cool bad guys without changing athas. Also, I'll be rewriting the sks and the dragon, depending on how they look. The dragon will be my lv35 godlike solo, on par with bahamut and the others.
Sure, you can decide as a DM that in your game, SKs are "too smart" or whatever fictional device you want to invent to prevent your players from doing what would be natural (killing a fairly unchallenging enemy); as I said, you can kill your games before it becomes an issue. But not only that would ironically lead to a DS were PCs are less powerful than in other worlds (the opposite of the theme of the setting), but also WotC will need to provide a setting that still works at epic level. And if all SKs look like Nibenay, there will need to be an large number of much, much more powerful things on Athas, and possibly ancient things and things that know stuff.
Athas has plenty for epic characters to fight, and players don't need to "kill" the sorcerer kings or the dragon during their first time through epic in darksun. That would leave the setting empty if you don't reset it every time. You can fight tons of things in standard 4e beyond gods, devils and so on. You can also design your own monsters, which is something some of us DMs do. My players will have no shortage of stuff to fight, that's for sure.
The biggest issue I experienced with DS in 2ndedition was games breaking up after a certain level;
once the world stopped to be the biggest enemy and DMs needed to provide more, the game became complex to handle.
I can understand, but can't relate. I'v never experienced that problem.
Very few DMsagreed with seeing players challenge their "pet" SKs, or even worse the Dragon, so at some point the game had to be resetted because it became impossible to progress since players wanted to keep growing and DMsdidn't know where to send them.
Yup, that was a problem for those DMs.
This cannot be the case with 4th edition: the setting is blatantly built on the idea that everything is killable (gods are statted), and from what we saw of SKs, they will be killable fairly soon in the Epic curve. There must be more to Athas, in 4th edition, and I'm actually curious about what it will be.
Not all of us agree that gods should be killable. But I agree that players need to feel like they can defeat undefeatable enemies. As for 4e, it's just a rules system to help tell a story. I see no problems at all. I'v even failed to see where our reality check comes into play. Wotc doesn't get to dictate how our games are run and we can't judge our games based on what other DMs have done. Because we do things differently.
This is sort of like the whole "playing evil" issue a lot of people have. I simply can't relate. I'v never had those problems as common as other players. People assume their experience is fact and not just an experience. If that were true, I'd of never played in successful evil aligned games, nor played the same darksun character for as long as I did. Myself and my groups will enjoy darksun as we always have, only using a new rules system.
I agree, the players aren't average, they're exceptional, but exceptional doesn't require knowledge or discovery of every mystery and secret in the game. As for becoming more powerful than the SKs, that's late epic and by then I'll have what I need ready.
I'd hardly say late epic; if Nibenay is the strongest and he's a 29 level elite (with those fairly mediocre stats and abilities), he will prolly be doable by a prepared party around lvl 25. If the rest of the SKs aren't a mere 1-2 levels behind, they'll be doable in late paragon probably.
Now, as you said, what is or isn't doable in the end is up to the DM; but here I'm focusing on WotC's approach.
You're free to make a lvl 24 elite unkillable with clones or guards or rituals; but the setting will need to be built around the idea that a lvl 24 elite is a lvl 20ish encounter and there's a full tier to fill past that. In short, Athas needs new, bigger fishes in the sand to keep the epic tier playable.
Also, there's plenty of MM creatures more powerful than Nibenay; it's clear that WotC will need to devote some words to the ecology of a world that (rightfully) can be deadly also for the mighty SKs.
Not all of us agree that gods should be killable. But I agree that players need to feel like they can defeat undefeatable enemies. As for 4e, it's just a rules system to help tell a story. I see no problems at all. I'v even failed to see where our reality check comes into play. Wotc doesn't get to dictate how our games are run and we can't judge our games based on what other DMs have done. Because we do things differently.
This is sort of like the whole "playing evil" issue a lot of people have. I simply can't relate. I'v never had those problems as common as other players. People assume their experience is fact and not just an experience. If that were true, I'd of never played in successful evil aligned games, nor played the same darksun character for as long as I did. Myself and my groups will enjoy darksun as we always have, only using a new rules system.
And those who disagree just alter the game in the way they feel it's better for their games, as you do. I did the same in 3rd edition to actually make the gods killable, for example.
My point was that while in 2nd edition those (few) statted "DS BBEGs" were absolute fiends of monsters, in 4ed they're relatively unthreatening from what we saw so far - which leads me to think we will see much more.
I don't. A fraction (low or high is irrelevant) of the players do it. The other fractions will find Nibenay a challenge still.
That Nibenay is, in your opinion, so easy to kill, that this 'fact' seems to imply even greater challenges should be devised, which is rubbing you in a way you may not necessarily like, all of this is through the optic of you. WotC's approach is fine for the other fractions that do not optimize.
@VisanidethDM: You keep throwing statements out there to the effect that Nibenay's stats are mediocre, that he's easy to kill. Thankfully, earlier you said this was true for gaming groups that optimize their characters. Yet in all subsequent conversations you drop this mention and write every comment of this nature in the optic that we - Penn, Duke, the rest of this community - optimize our characters, even take it as a given to do so.
I don't. A fraction (low or high is irrelevant) of the players do it. The other fractions will find Nibenay a challenge still.
That Nibenay is, in your opinion, so easy to kill, that this 'fact' seems to imply even greater challenges should be devised, which is rubbing you in a way you may not necessarily like, all of this is through the optic of you. WotC's approach is fine for the other fractions that do not optimize.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm excited that there may be content more powerful than Nibenay. I'm really curious about seeing it.
I was also an optimizer in 3rd edition. I'm not in 4th. It's completely unnecessary. Bottom line is, Nibenay is fairly "mediocre" even when compared with some "nameless" MM monsters of similar level. He's not more dangerous than a similar level lich or beholder and he's dramatically weaker than dragons his level - even if he's boosted by not being a solo and being an elite.
But trust me on this: no optimization will be needed for Nibenay, and while he does have a few tricks up his sleeve, he's a fairly brutish, straightforward foe that most parties of appropriate level will down with relative ease.
I'd hardly say late epic; if Nibenay is the strongest and he's a 29 level elite (with those fairly mediocre stats and abilities), he will prollybe doable by a prepared party around lvl 25. If the rest of the SKsaren't a mere 1-2 levels behind, they'll be doable in late paragon probably.
I doubt any SK will be under level 24, then again, Wotc does plenty of things I wouldn't do. So we'll see what happens. As for nibenay, he's got more power than you're giving him credit for. 6d10 +restrained (save ends) as an at-will isn't something to take lightly. His ego whip is brutal and he can use it twice everytime he attacks. That's a brutal 8d12+22 + dazed (save ends) against a single target. That's nothing to laugh at and will kill plenty of PCs. His defiling power isn't very merciful either. And he's just an elite, which means anyone in his group will make it even more difficult. He could also have two more sorcerer kings in his party if you have six pcs. That's a serious fight.
You're also assuming everything will be in the players favor. The DM won't play the SKs smart, the dice will always roll good for the pcs and bad for the SKs and so on. Plenty of pc groups have failed simply because the DM was smart about the monster and the dice hated the players.
(homebrew)
I view SKs as the replacement to gods, so when they hit bloodied or 0hp, they discorporate back to their sanctuaries. This means IMG that killing an SK is the climax of a specific adventure and not a side effect of an encounter. So even if an SK looks to be a bit on the easy side, it doesn't mean much as SKs could be/probably will be, reoccurring villains.
Now, as you said, what is or isn't doable in the end is up to the DM; but here I'm focusing on WotC's approach.
I'v no idea what wotc's thinking. I'v no idea what they will do. I alwaysview official material as a foundation to be built upon. But I don't know how wotc will handle high level epic in darksun. I would have made Nibenay lvl 32 or 33. We just have to wait and see what surprised they have for us.
You're free to make a lvl 24 elite unkillablewith clones or guards or rituals; but the setting will need to be built around the idea that a lvl 24 elite is a lvl 20ish encounter and there's a full tier to fill past that. In short, Athasneeds new, bigger fishes in the sand to keep the epic tier playable.
I agree that athas needs bigger fish. But I don't view the SKs as simple xp fodder. Just like the gods. Killing a god (depending on the DM) isn't as simple as reducing it's hp to 0. Killing a god/SK should (IMO) have meaning and be part of a larger story. The aftereffects of killing something so important are huge. Killing an SK would have an effect on all of the tablelands. So, to me at least, making SKs of any level, harder to kill is a good idea and adds flavor. When you finally do kill an sk, it's not like killing an ancient dragon in another setting. It's an epic event and something the players should remember as special, through the hundreds upon hundreds of successful encounters they play out in that character's career. Hence the whole sanctuary/clone/contingency option.
My point was that while in 2nd edition those (few) statted "DS BBEGs" were absolute fiends of monsters, in 4ed they're relatively unthreatening from what we saw so far - which leads me to think we will see much more.
I can't agree with you on nibenay looking nonthreatening. He can do 8d12+daze and teleport. Then his allies come into play. For an elite, he's perfectly dangerous. As for seeing more, I'm actually worried that the biggest fish in 4e DS will be primordials. Which I will remove from my game. I'm not running a PoL desert setting, I'm running darksun.
I doubt any SK will be under level 24, then again, Wotc does plenty of things I wouldn't do. So we'll see what happens. As for nibenay, he's got more power than you're giving him credit for. 6d10 +restrained (save ends) as an at-will isn't something to take lightly. His ego whip is brutal and he can use it twice everytime he attacks. That's a brutal 8d12+22 + dazed (save ends) against a single target. That's nothing to laugh at and will kill plenty of PCs. His defiling power isn't very merciful either. And he's just an elite, which means anyone in his group will make it even more difficult. He could also have two more sorcerer kings in his party if you have six pcs. That's a serious fight.
As serious as he is, he's not something you need preparation for; I'd argue almost all of the Open Grave liches would be far more threatening when advanced to lvl 29, for example.
But now WotC released Lalali-Puy and she's seriously on a completely different level. Yes, she's one level below but her abilities are so much more powerful than his. She can literally kill him by focusing on taking down his allies and letting him hit on her.
I wasn't expecting to see THIS much difference in power between SKs. In a direct confrontation, Nibenay will struggle to even bring her to bloodied state.
(homebrew)
I view SKs as the replacement to gods, so when they hit bloodied or 0hp, they discorporate back to their sanctuaries. This means IMG that killing an SK is the climax of a specific adventure and not a side effect of an encounter. So even if an SK looks to be a bit on the easy side, it doesn't mean much as SKs could be/probably will be, reoccurring villains.
I agree with all the above; my problem is mostly that at level 29, bringing Nibenay to bloodied is probably a matter of two players using a daily in the same turn. If he loses initiative he may never get to act, and that's a bit too much for a SK, in my opinion. I'd rather have all SKs as solos on Lalali-Puy's level or something similar (ideally a range of solos starting around 25 and ending with Borys over 30), which would leave room for bigger entities but would make the SK stand among the top dogs.
I can't agree with you on nibenay looking nonthreatening. He can do 8d12+daze and teleport. Then his allies come into play. For an elite, he's perfectly dangerous. As for seeing more, I'm actually worried that the biggest fish in 4e DS will be primordials. Which I will remove from my game. I'm not running a PoL desert setting, I'm running darksun.
I think primordials work exceedingly well in DS; let's not forget that 4e basically expands the game by a tier (2nd edition, you fundamentally ended at 20 and barely anyone got there - here you're supposed to get to 30). The cosmology needs to adapt somehow.