From your post in other thread, no worries mate;)
My concern though is:
a) Most of the folk I play with HATE the way DS went: screwed up to fit an "Officially imposed history that was damned silly in their eyes".
Worse it killed off half the damned SKs, and ruined the entire feeling of the setting, which is not something that can be forgiven by rabid geeks on forums lke myself :D
b) Some of those involved with the DS novels/TSR at the time, iirc, admitted to it being a bad thing to do, they screwed up and acknowledge it. So why continue the wreckage? Amputate the dead wood! :P
c) When DS is reborn for 4th ed, I will be furious if it's messed up like the 4th ed Realms was, and sticks to the ridiculous metaplot DS was wrecked by.
ie, what "geeks" like us do on boards may affect how DS is seen by WOTC, and how it will be brought back...
Now, seriously all, wouldn't you rather have it back to the 1st boxed set, with some good bits like "Dune Trader" etc, kept, but, that's *it*?
All SK's alive, no knowledge of Athas' history and so on, hm?
That's what I loved, not what DS became, hence I stick to the 1st boxed set, and some bits, rest be damned!
Because the point of a new release of DS, is not just for you and I, it's for new players!
Don't you want them to have the raw, mysterious harsheness of the original, or make them suffer oh wows, democracy!! and most of the SKs are dead and well bit tame isn't it?(jeesh!) etc?
In general, retconning games, TV series, novels etc buggers 'em up, and wrecked them. This is well known. If something works, don't mess with it!
Mystery is awesome for a gamesmaster in any system. What the players don't know, you can make up, or change, and what does't have stats SCARES players, muhaha!
IIRC, in one of my games years ago, one PC got uppity and started slagging off Kalak in public...he died in a spectcular fashion on the spot. That wasn't bad, that didn't require "oh noes the stats on page 125 don't say he cna do that!"
No, the players got the message: SKs are scaaaaaaaaaaaary.
That's absolutley wonderful for a game, knowing there's things that can squash the PCs like a gnat, means they know limits and fears. It's not bad, it gives tension and wonder.
Normally the SK's should never get involved with the players, they aren't "PC busters", just the great forces that help shape the setting.
The PCs can thwart the SKs or help the people, but not by just ganking the SKs as if they were "xp and lewt!" like they are in some games, hehe.
Athas is about survival, moral victories are often as simple as deciding not to be sadistic or greedy and thus missing out on things that would give you an advantage.
For example, finding an exhasuted mul gladiator in the wastes, in many settings it would be de rigeur to save him, and help him for nothing.
In DS games, hey, he's worth 50 gold pieces, FREE SLAVE MEAT, woot! lol.
If you chose not ot enslave him on the spot, that is a great moral act.
See what I mean? that is a great hting about Athasian games. You have to do more, to be a "good guy", and survival is the prime goal of the game much of the time.
Removing slavery and the nasty brutality from Athas, to make it "Politically correct, mindmush Athas for the 21st century" would be a horrible loss, ugh.
The other thread is of course valid to those who love the official DS timeline.
But you can see, it has so many damned holes in it, caused so many problems...and to many folks like myself, was so damned dumb/broken it wrecked a truly awesome gamesetting.
I don't want to see the opportunity of 4th ed DS wasted.
i second your notions.
1st box was excellent. and you're right, what was so key, and makes the 1st box stuff so awesome, was the mystery. when i play, it's almost always before Kalak's assassination.
denning certainly killed everyone off in the world too quickly. jumped the gun sorta... even if it was a cool jump to read about, although perhaps not to play in. after all, what would we do without kalak?
ha.
good thread.
Just to be clear, I agree (more or less) completely with what Silverblade says about the setting, its timeline and its subsequent mismanagement. OK, I have zero interest in 4e and couldn't care less what WotC do with the setting. But generally speaking, I feel the same way. I don't use the standard backstory or timeline in my own DS games at all.
That said, my points in the other thread are based on what is factually there, not on what I would like to be factually there. When it comes to my own games, canon is shredded with gleeful abandon. When it comes to discussing what the books actually say, though? That's serious business ;)...
ah, in my games, Kalak is never gonna be assassinated! well, not unless the player characters do it one day ;)
Another thing I liked about the Dark Sun, Spelljammer stuff, and the VERY first Forgotten Realms boxed set, was the artwork and layout, they all helped evoke the settings well, IMHO
Terminus,
sigh, and why do all that at all to DS?
Sure, places change, but ramming massive changes down folk's throats, when they have their own well established campaigns, and this offical change gets piled on 'em...that sucks.
It's like kicking sand on kids.
No, a good game creator adds ot a setting, in ways players can use or adapt as they chose, without having things wrecked and changed drastically. That takes a lot more skill than just pile driving through the setting! :/
Dune Trader, Elves of Athas, that's great to add, adding in details on interesting stuff that hopefully won't mess with campaigns, new optional classes, new races etc etc. Good crunch, and fluff that doesn't break the setting is graavy.
You don't need ot add in whacking great changes, jeesh.
Instead, add in adventures which MAY change things, but the outcome is not cannon in offical works.
For example: kreen invasion, sure, that's cool, but the end should not be set rigid in stone, but left up to the DM, with info on how ot play out possible ends and consequences.
D&D is a three-way play. WOTC/TSR help set the stage, the DM writes the play and directs the NPCs, the players act it out and ad lib. WOTC/TSR shouldn't mess with the writer/director! ;)
Kamelion,
yeah started this thread so not to mess with other one more ;)
But you can see the number of inconsistancies and problems in the official stuff, ick.
Kamelion,
yeah started this thread so not to mess with other one more ;)
But you can see the number of inconsistancies and problems in the official stuff, ick.
Like you say, no worries
.And speaking of inconsistencies, have you seen these threads?
(Plus a number of similar contradiction threads linked to in the bottom section of this post?)
DS madness, I tell you!
;)
For the 'Wingless Borys' hypothesis, I'd like to put forth that the other Sks could have banded together and destroyed his wings during his rage, explaining why it was contained by boundaries any dragon with wings could fly over, but any creature would have huge difficulties transversing on foot. Since he was in a rage, he probably wouldn't remember them clipping his wings, and I doubt any one of them would ever be stupid enough to tell him about it.They collectively could have killed him, no doubt, but he was needed to maintain Rajaat's prison. So they did the only thing they could to keep him from killing the whole planet. This would also explain why he had malformations consistent with sustaining grevious damage and healing slowly and imperfectly from it. He was hunched over, described in some texts as requiring two canes to walk with. Gnarled up and twisted. Nothing like the majestic creature on the cover of VoDaF. That could have been a picture of Borys before he got hobbled for the good of the world.
Good theory Term. Well thought out. <>
There's another possibility, though I kind of like this one less than the other - Perhaps he ran into something even more powerful than himself just at the border of his rampage, and it happens to be whatever ripped off his wings and mangled him. I can envision the Kreen banding together, using jalath'gak flying mounts and other living combatants, and doing serious damage to the Dragon, but being totally unable to kill him. Heck, it'd be a great alternate origin for my Kreen dragon - maybe created specifically to combat Borys and drive him off, or else created after the fact in case he came back. Borys' attack could have been what made some of the slave Kreen aware of the Tablelands, and provided them with the opportunity to follow Borys back, to the relative safety of the Tablelands.
Independent of that, his rages could be what has prevented outside nations from discovering and exploring the tablelands. They could remember the dragon, remember crippling him,destroying his wings,and beating him back at great cost in resources and lives, and then see what the outskirts of his domain look like, and consider it a lost cause to even explore, lest he remember them and return seeking vengeance. They would not know that he wouldn't remember a thing about what happened during his rages. His lack of wings prevented him from personally exploring further out, and so he could have forbidden the SKs from exploring or traveling beyond the regions where he could personally keep an eye on them and easily collect the levy.
Since one would assume that the Dragon could have used psionics or magic to fly or cross great barriers if he so chose, I also put forth the idea that someone, perhaps but not necessarily the one or ones who took his wings, could have psionically program him to be subconsciously adverse to casting spells or using psionics to overcome his disfigurements and crippledness. it would explain why he healed slowly and imperfectly, and never regenerated his wings. Collectively, the SKs could do this. Perhaps the first thing they did when he started going violently insane was cripple him, pluck his wings, and mindscrew him. It would explain why they managed to individually stand against him and prevent the destruction of their cities.
The answer could be a combination of all these factors. Different people and nations could have done damage to him in different ways, the net result being the gnarled Borys we know. Maybe it was after he defiled the land that the SKs beat him down and prevented him from healing by psionically programming him not to. He flees to the jagged Cliffs to lick his wounds, and exhasted, falls off into the swamp Rajaat created in his experiments. This could be what prevented him from healing, if nothing else. Then he runs smack into the Kreen who pluck his wings in an all-out assault to save their lands. He flees instinctively back to the tablelands,barely makes it.Exhausted and beaten, and files to isolated Ur-Draxa, little more than an uninhabited island in a sea of magma at that time, deadly to any but him. where he slowly recovers, but never completely. he doesn't remember anything concrete about what happened during his rage, and thinks his form is the result of his mutation, not a multi-national ass-whooping.He has a subconscious feeling that Ur-Draxa is to be his sanctuary, where none may trespass or do him harm. he doesn't have any idea who could harm him, but is paranoid due to subconscious memories of the events that transpired.So the Kreen send spies (the Tohr-Kreen) to see where this monster came from. They find out he's crippled and mangled, but still powerful, and the tablelands are ripe for kreen invasion if he ever dies, along with enough of his SK minions. They patiently wait the millenia, then suddenly, after he dies, the Jagged Cliffs are ripped in half, like something out of a prophecy. The Ancient Menace is dead, his lands unguarded, and the Kreen are ready to conquer!
The Champions subdue Rajaat, and try to force Rajaat to make Borys into the Dragon in order to imprison Rajaat. He goes along, and right at the end, plays his gamble - twists Borys' bones, does away with his wings, and drives him insane. The SKs immediately 'kill' Rajaat, and Borys goes on his rampage. Rajaat plotted for 3 contingencies when he warped Borys - Either Borys would immediately slay the Champions, and Rajaat could kill him easily in his weakened state right after the battle, or Borys would go nuts, destroy the bulk of everything the Champions were supposed to, and cause countless suffering and death for generations, keeping the population low while Rajaat grew in power and plotted his revenge, or else possibly Borys would be so crippled by the warping that he would be unable to maintain Rajaat's prison.hell, that could be why the prison was imperfectly formed, and why a levy was required to maintain it. Plan B seems to be the way things unfolded. Either way, rajaat could well be bth responsible for the Dragons rampage, and for the limit of its scope, relative to the size of the planet.And to cover up some loose ends, perhaps the additional deleterious mutation and insanity was a reaction delayed just long enough for him to successfully create Rajaat's prison. maybe Rajaat had the corruption delayed on purpose, hoping to catch the Champions unaware and prevent them from imprisoning him, but his calculation for the delay was off. So he sat there calmly, waiting for borys to go nuts and destroy his rebellious minions, and was utterly shocked to find himself in the Hollow, unable to escape. And that's why he's EXTRA bitter about the whole mess, because a small miscalculation cost him so very much.This would explain how the Champions overcame him in the first place - he never actually offered any real resistance, expecting Borys to flip out and kill them all , while he sat back, gloated, had a good laugh, and thought smugly to himself about how crafty he was and what wonderful foresight he was gifted with. But he miscalculated how long it would take for Borys and the Champions to create his prison, and was caught off guard when the last syllable of the incantation was uttered, he was reduced to a skeleton, sucked out of his body and trapped in the Hollow.Ten Borys degenerated mentally and physically right before the stunned eyes of the SKs. Or perhaps Rajaat just mind-screwed him into the rage, and didn't screw up his transformation, hoping that the perfect Dragon would then kill everyone and everything, finishing the Cleansing Wars.Then the Champions did the physical damage, as their only logical course of action at the spur of the moment, to keep the frenzied Borys from destroying the whole world. So the remaining Champions took a VERY cautious course in their advancement, thinking the insanity and mutation were part of the spells, not caused by a crafty Rajaat in a desperate move, not knowing(at least in the scope of this idea) that the metamorphosis didn't actually cause those symptoms. Dregoth alone figured this out, explaining why he advanced so quickly, without going through a rage. Nibenay obviously doesn't know, and we'll never know if Tek did. Kalak apparently didn't care about the rage.
On a related note, Dragon could have been that powerful metamorphosis that Rajaat discovered but decided wasn't powerful enough for him. This would explain why the Champions knew about it, and were able to force him to carry it out them, and then they repeated it on Borys. Heck, that way, they would have been distracted enough for Rajaat to screw up Borys' mind without them noticing.....
Any of these explanations could answer a multitude of questions about the nature of Borys.
Also, I think it's a little strange that the metamorphosis is supposed to be divided into ten steps, with specific results, yet nobody has ever gone through all ten, and only Dregoth almost did it. Borys was transformed all at once. Is it possible the ten steps and their rituals are a version of borys' metamorphosis, broken up into ten theoretical steps with life energy substituting for the dark lens? This could mean that the rage is implied by the Champions to be a later-stage inevitabilty, but in light of my theory for an alternate series of events, again explains why Dregoth never went through a rage. If there had been more trust among champions, he could have explained himself. But, barring the Champions discovering Rajaat's little brain screw on Borys, they would not believe him. Perhaps he did try to explain it to them, right before he was going to take the final step, but they collectively decided he was full of crap, and hiding something, so they killed him. Their mutual mistrust of one another saved the rest of Athas from having to deal with at least nine candidates for Dragonhood. perhaps Kalak somehow forced Sacha and Wyan to tell him what Rajaat did to Borys, and that's why he decided to go through with the all-at-once metamorphosis. Not that he cared about destroying his city if he did go through a rage, likely. he most likely cared more about being able to have his mind about him and hold his own once the other SKs found out what he did. Borys more than likely could not make full use of his abilities in his rage, and so got mutilated by whomever. kalak, fully transformed, in full control of his faculties, and filled to bursting with the life energy of all Tyr, would have been unstoppable.
1. Borys was like he was because he did the transformation all at once. Rajaat designed (or discovered) the transformation to have 10 steps, because the time between each step would allow the person transforming adjust to the changes of mind and body. So you want to go slow when transforming. Rajaat would leave this point out of his teachings due to knowing that the most ambitious of his students would try to "cheat" the 10-step proccess and pay the price. Perhaps this would have been Kalak's fate, tricked into it by Wyan and Sacha?
2. The reason why there really were no new Sorcerer-Kings or Dragons is specificly because none of the current Sorcerer-Kings truely trusted each other enough to compare notes and research to get a full idea of what was going on. As someone pointed out in the other thread about Tithian technically being able to assemble the pieces of the secret of becoming a full (Templar spells and all) Sorcerer-King, it would have required him to assemble closely guarded knowledge from a variety of sources, all of which are likely to be at least partially or fully misleading.
'The Dragon had gone insane
shortly after coming in to his power, so there was more to
learn about the process'
Dregoth was already a 9th stage dragon, hadn't gone insane, and knew for certain it happened after the 10th step. His lack of knowledge of what caused the insanity and the sentence and context indicate he had not a clue as to what caused Borys to flip out, and so his rituals wouldn't have been designed to avoid it. He never had some secret way to prevent it. But if my theory is put into play, he wouldn't have gone through a Rage either, because Rajaat made Borys go insane, he just screwed up on the timing and couldn't really take immediate advantage of it. It still paid off later, making the Dragon get his ass kicked by everybody aout of self preservation, so he was weak enough for Rikus to kill(albeit with a blade forged by Rajaat).
The dragon transformation reimagined as the creation of Rajaat, inbuilt into the Champions, with time itself bringing them ever closer to full dragonhood and loss of humanity. An unstopable process.
From this process one of the Champions, or an epic caster who gave his life over to the study of the Champions, developed a multi-tiered (baby steps) process that imitates what Rajaat did, and that anyone can use to transform bit by bit into a dragon.
If Oronis still exists in this 4e reinvention, then he aquired that multi-tiered process and perverted its intend, helping him corrupt Rajaat's unstoppbale work on his own body...harnessing it to turn himself into something less destructive than a dragon. He's still unstoppably changing, just not into what Rajaat intended.
This is losely taken from Rise and Fall, the rest is pure invention.
4th Ed Darksun
World Axis cosmology
Not very nice desert world to live on.
Maybe defiling
The Dragon statted out (maybe).
If it even resembles the 4th ed FR I wouldn't even expect a section of monsters in the DM book for DS. Maybe a few classic athasians critters scattered throughout the book.