Kreen and Half-Giants: Losing the four arms and Large size - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Kreen and Half-Giants: Losing the four arms and Large size

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Pennarin
Feb 09, 2009 13:14:43 I was pretty vocal in never wanting a 4e HG to be smaller than Large, but this may end up a banned feature by WotC in all of its PC races based on monsters that normally are of Large size. The minotaur is already statted that way. There may be others, I do not follow the scene closely.

Also, another landmark of DS was four-armed kreens, which had more attacks. This is probably a big no-no in 4e now, although we may never see an example supporting my suspicion (what other four-armed creatures are there?). Already there's a homebrew kreen PC race out there for which the designer realized four-armed was not a possibility. His kreen still has four arms, but no longer gains additional attacks from them.

Please discuss these two points, and only those, in this thread. Provide any link or quotes or analysis you can find on the subject matter.

And be civil! :D
#2
Cyber-Dave
Feb 09, 2009 13:21:27 The kreen problem actually isn't one. No monster or PC race gains a number of attacks equal to their number of arms anymore. Players with two arms that wield two weapons don't get to make two attacks. The only benefit of four arms would be that you can hold four weapons, and choose which weapon you want to attack with each round. This is a far less overpowering bonus feature than being able to make four attacks per round. It should work out just fine. And to top that off, the race can get some sort of nifty racial class feature where they get to use a per encounter power to make a basic attack with each of their four arms or something like that. Racial feats for the class seem sort of obvious as well. Multiweapon Fighting, which grants a +1 to damage per off-hand weapon held. Multiweapon defense, which does the same (maybe)? I think working the kreen in 4e should be easy as pie.

As for the half-giant, I am honestly hoping that the Goliath is similar enough that half-giants in 4e can just be re-flavored Goliaths. Again, I am not too worried about them being made "medium" size. If you look at pictures of minotaurs or warforged, they still look massive compared to other medium sized creatures. The important thing will be that the half-giant gain racial abilities that make them "feel massive."
#3
Pennarin
Feb 09, 2009 13:29:22 Very concise, thanks Cyber-Dave! And indeed you are right in that you no longer gain multiple attacks if you wield more than one weapon, even with feats. This can be found in the Ranger, and many of the MM monsters.
#4
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 09, 2009 14:05:25 I doubt that the Goliath will be replacing the Half-Giant, because both Goliath and Half-Giant were introduced in 3e/3.5 als seperate PC races. Eladrin and Deva were 'monsters' in 3e/3.5 and had no extra entries for PCs.
#5
AvonRekaes
Feb 09, 2009 14:16:33 I can see Thri-Kreen as having a Racial Encounter power where they can make up to 3 extra basic attacks as a minor action. Wouldn't be that much better/worse than the Dragonbreath Dragonborn racial.
#6
Cyber-Dave
Feb 09, 2009 14:41:54
I doubt that the Goliath will be replacing the Half-Giant, because both Goliath and Half-Giant were introduced in 3e/3.5 als seperate PC races. Eladrin and Deva were 'monsters' in 3e/3.5 and had no extra entries for PCs.

And I fail to see why any of this indicates that the Goliath will not replace the Half-Giant...

If I was a WotC developer, and I wanted the Goliath to be a race present in any many settings as possible, and I wanted to release a Dark Sun 4e, and I knew that the standard Goliath would not fit in Dark Sun, the best way to incorporate the Goliath into Dark Sun would be to make it the Dark Sun half-giant. This would also free me to write more of the other "Dark Sun races" into the Dark Sun Players Guide, leaving the "half-giant" entry to a fluff entry only (since the mechanical capabilities can be found int he Players Handbook 2). I'm really not sure how anything done in 3e counteracts this logic, or how the Eladrin/Deva comment is pertinent... espetially since the 4e Eladrin is more like the 3e high elf/eladrin rolled into one race, and the Deva is likely to be more like an aasimar then anything else (including a 3e deva, if there was one)... that or it will be like the eladrin, in the sense that it will be a mix of the PC assimar and the deva monster fluff (if there was such) rolled into one.
#7
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 09, 2009 16:17:23 I can only agree if they do an Eladrin and rename the Half-Giant as Goliath, but the other way around would be the wrong way because the Goliath is a much more obscure race than the Half-Giant.
#8
Cyber-Dave
Feb 09, 2009 16:46:31
I can only agree if they do an Eladrin and rename the Half-Giant as Goliath, but the other way around would be the wrong way because the Goliath is a much more obscure race than the Half-Giant.

I am not sure what you mean by "if they do an Eladrin." Again, I am not sure how Eladrin are pertinent to how they do a half-giant one way or another, except perhaps as an example of how 4e has mixed certain earlier races into a single race, and thus how a Goliath=half-giant 4e half-giant makes sense.

I also don't see how it matters either way, whether the Goliath is named a half-giant, or the half-giant is named Goliath. To be honest, if it was me, I would write the 4e Dark Sun fluff in a manner that made the two names interchangeable. Depending on who is doing the naming, the race is called by two different names.
#9
aini
Feb 09, 2009 21:49:07
I was pretty vocal in never wanting a 4e HG to be smaller than Large, but this may end up a banned feature by WotC in all of its PC races based on monsters that normally are of Large size. The minotaur is already statted that way. There may be others, I do not follow the scene closely.

The Ogre in 4E Monsters Manual is statted as a Large creature. While no actual height/weight is given on it nor any real description, If we assume that they are the same creature from 2nd and 3rd then it would be around 9-10ft tall and 600-650 lbs.
This is infact SMALLER than the Half-Giant which according to the same edition(s) lore is a 11ft tall wall of muscle weighing 1600 lbs or so.

Unless they are planning to make a Half-Giant smaller in 4E(Quarter-Giant?) i cant see how they can escape it being a Large size creature

As to Thri Kreen, While it seems odd to not have as many attacks as the creature itself 'does' have, the attacks and such can still be roleplayed when you describe attacks and such i would imagine, even if your not 'rolling' that many dice for it
#10
Barbarossa_Rotbart
Feb 10, 2009 10:30:50
I am not sure what you mean by "if they do an Eladrin." Again, I am not sure how Eladrin are pertinent to how they do a half-giant one way or another, except perhaps as an example of how 4e has mixed certain earlier races into a single race, and thus how a Goliath=half-giant 4e half-giant makes sense.

Doing an Eladrin: giving a race the name and some features of another race which has been removed from the game. That happened to the High Elves, which were renamed to Eladrin, and to the Aasimar which were renamed Deva..
And I think that tge same will happen to the half-giants.
I also don't see how it matters either way, whether the Goliath is named a half-giant, or the half-giant is named Goliath. To be honest, if it was me, I would write the 4e Dark Sun fluff in a manner that made the two names interchangeable. Depending on who is doing the naming, the race is called by two different names.

It is a difference. In one case we have a race of large humanoid with a stone colored skins to whose features and background som of the half-giant are added. In the other case we have a cross-breed between humans and giants to whose features and background some the goliath are added.
#11
Pennarin
Feb 10, 2009 12:07:30
It is a difference. In one case we have a race of large humanoid with a stone colored skins to whose features and background som of the half-giant are added. In the other case we have a cross-breed between humans and giants to whose features and background some the goliath are added.

Aroo? Unless goliaths have stone-theme powers...then their fluff description can easily be redone to match Athasian standards. That's what a small conversion paragraph included in the Dark Sun Palyer's Guide would cover.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Pennarin Feb 09, 2009 13:14:43	I was pretty vocal in never wanting a 4e HG to be smaller than Large, but this may end up a banned feature by WotC in all of its PC races based on monsters that normally are of Large size. The minotaur is already statted that way. There may be others, I do not follow the scene closely. Also, another landmark of DS was four-armed kreens, which had more attacks. This is probably a big no-no in 4e now, although we may never see an example supporting my suspicion (what other four-armed creatures are there?). Already there's a homebrew kreen PC race out there for which the designer realized four-armed was not a possibility. His kreen still has four arms, but no longer gains additional attacks from them. Please discuss these two points, and only those, in this thread. Provide any link or quotes or analysis you can find on the subject matter. And be civil! :D
#2 Cyber-Dave Feb 09, 2009 13:21:27	The kreen problem actually isn't one. No monster or PC race gains a number of attacks equal to their number of arms anymore. Players with two arms that wield two weapons don't get to make two attacks. The only benefit of four arms would be that you can hold four weapons, and choose which weapon you want to attack with each round. This is a far less overpowering bonus feature than being able to make four attacks per round. It should work out just fine. And to top that off, the race can get some sort of nifty racial class feature where they get to use a per encounter power to make a basic attack with each of their four arms or something like that. Racial feats for the class seem sort of obvious as well. Multiweapon Fighting, which grants a +1 to damage per off-hand weapon held. Multiweapon defense, which does the same (maybe)? I think working the kreen in 4e should be easy as pie. As for the half-giant, I am honestly hoping that the Goliath is similar enough that half-giants in 4e can just be re-flavored Goliaths. Again, I am not too worried about them being made "medium" size. If you look at pictures of minotaurs or warforged, they still look massive compared to other medium sized creatures. The important thing will be that the half-giant gain racial abilities that make them "feel massive."
#3 Pennarin Feb 09, 2009 13:29:22	Very concise, thanks Cyber-Dave! And indeed you are right in that you no longer gain multiple attacks if you wield more than one weapon, even with feats. This can be found in the Ranger, and many of the MM monsters.
#4 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 09, 2009 14:05:25	I doubt that the Goliath will be replacing the Half-Giant, because both Goliath and Half-Giant were introduced in 3e/3.5 als seperate PC races. Eladrin and Deva were 'monsters' in 3e/3.5 and had no extra entries for PCs.
#5 AvonRekaes Feb 09, 2009 14:16:33	I can see Thri-Kreen as having a Racial Encounter power where they can make up to 3 extra basic attacks as a minor action. Wouldn't be that much better/worse than the Dragonbreath Dragonborn racial.
#6 Cyber-Dave Feb 09, 2009 14:41:54	I doubt that the Goliath will be replacing the Half-Giant, because both Goliath and Half-Giant were introduced in 3e/3.5 als seperate PC races. Eladrin and Deva were 'monsters' in 3e/3.5 and had no extra entries for PCs. And I fail to see why any of this indicates that the Goliath will not replace the Half-Giant... If I was a WotC developer, and I wanted the Goliath to be a race present in any many settings as possible, and I wanted to release a Dark Sun 4e, and I knew that the standard Goliath would not fit in Dark Sun, the best way to incorporate the Goliath into Dark Sun would be to make it the Dark Sun half-giant. This would also free me to write more of the other "Dark Sun races" into the Dark Sun Players Guide, leaving the "half-giant" entry to a fluff entry only (since the mechanical capabilities can be found int he Players Handbook 2). I'm really not sure how anything done in 3e counteracts this logic, or how the Eladrin/Deva comment is pertinent... espetially since the 4e Eladrin is more like the 3e high elf/eladrin rolled into one race, and the Deva is likely to be more like an aasimar then anything else (including a 3e deva, if there was one)... that or it will be like the eladrin, in the sense that it will be a mix of the PC assimar and the deva monster fluff (if there was such) rolled into one.
#7 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 09, 2009 16:17:23	I can only agree if they do an Eladrin and rename the Half-Giant as Goliath, but the other way around would be the wrong way because the Goliath is a much more obscure race than the Half-Giant.
#8 Cyber-Dave Feb 09, 2009 16:46:31	I can only agree if they do an Eladrin and rename the Half-Giant as Goliath, but the other way around would be the wrong way because the Goliath is a much more obscure race than the Half-Giant. I am not sure what you mean by "if they do an Eladrin." Again, I am not sure how Eladrin are pertinent to how they do a half-giant one way or another, except perhaps as an example of how 4e has mixed certain earlier races into a single race, and thus how a Goliath=half-giant 4e half-giant makes sense. I also don't see how it matters either way, whether the Goliath is named a half-giant, or the half-giant is named Goliath. To be honest, if it was me, I would write the 4e Dark Sun fluff in a manner that made the two names interchangeable. Depending on who is doing the naming, the race is called by two different names.
#9 aini Feb 09, 2009 21:49:07	I was pretty vocal in never wanting a 4e HG to be smaller than Large, but this may end up a banned feature by WotC in all of its PC races based on monsters that normally are of Large size. The minotaur is already statted that way. There may be others, I do not follow the scene closely. The Ogre in 4E Monsters Manual is statted as a Large creature. While no actual height/weight is given on it nor any real description, If we assume that they are the same creature from 2nd and 3rd then it would be around 9-10ft tall and 600-650 lbs. This is infact SMALLER than the Half-Giant which according to the same edition(s) lore is a 11ft tall wall of muscle weighing 1600 lbs or so. Unless they are planning to make a Half-Giant smaller in 4E(Quarter-Giant?) i cant see how they can escape it being a Large size creature As to Thri Kreen, While it seems odd to not have as many attacks as the creature itself 'does' have, the attacks and such can still be roleplayed when you describe attacks and such i would imagine, even if your not 'rolling' that many dice for it
#10 Barbarossa_Rotbart Feb 10, 2009 10:30:50	I am not sure what you mean by "if they do an Eladrin." Again, I am not sure how Eladrin are pertinent to how they do a half-giant one way or another, except perhaps as an example of how 4e has mixed certain earlier races into a single race, and thus how a Goliath=half-giant 4e half-giant makes sense. Doing an Eladrin: giving a race the name and some features of another race which has been removed from the game. That happened to the High Elves, which were renamed to Eladrin, and to the Aasimar which were renamed Deva.. And I think that tge same will happen to the half-giants. I also don't see how it matters either way, whether the Goliath is named a half-giant, or the half-giant is named Goliath. To be honest, if it was me, I would write the 4e Dark Sun fluff in a manner that made the two names interchangeable. Depending on who is doing the naming, the race is called by two different names. It is a difference. In one case we have a race of large humanoid with a stone colored skins to whose features and background som of the half-giant are added. In the other case we have a cross-breed between humans and giants to whose features and background some the goliath are added.
#11 Pennarin Feb 10, 2009 12:07:30	It is a difference. In one case we have a race of large humanoid with a stone colored skins to whose features and background som of the half-giant are added. In the other case we have a cross-breed between humans and giants to whose features and background some the goliath are added. Aroo? Unless goliaths have stone-theme powers...then their fluff description can easily be redone to match Athasian standards. That's what a small conversion paragraph included in the Dark Sun Palyer's Guide would cover.