I was planning on creating a list, but I thought I would ask in case someone has a list.
If you want to be somewhat realistic, after about 8-10 generations (200 years for humans) noticable dialect differences emerge from a homogenous population which is geographically seperated (we're seeing this in the US now), after about 24-30 generations (600 years for humans) the dialects become so divergant as to be mutually unintelligible, constituting distinct but related languages. Assuming the SKs have been in power for at least 1000 years and a homogenous population in the city-states when they took over, its pretty reasonable that each city-state would have its own language too. Writing, trade, and academic/magic discourse may be done in high common (think Latin in the middle ages) rather than the vernacular of each city-state. Of course, given that, each of the racial languages ought to work the same, keeping racial lifespans in mind. Thus, elves are likely to have distinct elven dialects, but they might not impede comprehesion. This also assumes there's no magical basis for language, which isn't a standard D&D assumption these days (cf. Supernal). Thri-kreen racial memory, for example, could be invoked to stabilize or at least homogenize their language.
Either eay, messing with the language system is really only useful if you want languages to do something in your game. They're generally just a source of community history or a barrier to communication though in most games. You'd also probably want to go back to giving characters more languages known somehow, either making an intelligence modifier worth something or giving free languages based on backgrounds.
Here is a possible list:
Show
Athasian Languages
Trade and writing:
The common tongue (literacy is only found in the nobility, not usually spoken by thri-kreen or halflings)
High Common (usually spoken by templars and scholars and used for formal writing)
City-States:
Balic (Balikite)
Draj (Draji)
Gulg
Nibenay (Nibenese)
Raam (Raamish)
Tyr (Tyrian)
Urik (Urikian)
Merchant Houses:
Each merchant house has a language and a written code.
PC Races:
Dray (Ancient Giustenal)
Dwarven
Elven
Halfling (sounds like hoots, whistles, shrieks, and howls)
Thri-Kreen (sounds like clicks and whines)
Common Monsters:
Aarakocra
Anakore
Belgoi
Braxat
Giant
Gith
Hej-Kin
Primordial (used by some elementals)
Silt Runner
SSuran (sounds like grunts, growls, and hissing)
Shadow (language spoken by some undead and summoned creatures)*
Tarek
This would represent how their cultures had grown apart, and how there were many unique idioms and terms that cropped up over the centuries.
It would be possible to communicate with people from other city states, but if you didn't know the dialect, you would be at some small penalty to Skill Challenges when trying to interact with them.
I'd also give out one free language pick to each PC, so they could pick the dialect of their own city-state or what have you.
One thing I was thinking about was to have the each city state have its own "Dialect" of Common.
This would represent how their cultures had grown apart, and how there were many unique idioms and terms that cropped up over the centuries.
It would be possible to communicate with people from other city states, but if you didn't know the dialect, you would be at some small penalty to Skill Challenges when trying to interact with them.
I'd also give out one free language pick to each PC, so they could pick the dialect of their own city-state or what have you.
The way I was looking at it, there is a general common/trade tongue. However, when you start speaking that to someone in a different city-state than your own (instead of speaking the city state's language), then you have barriers. That could be an RP effect, it could land the PCs in trouble, or it could be skill modifiers. For example, speaking the trade tongue with a Urikite accent in newly freed Tyr could be bad. Speaking common in Nibenay might arouse suspicions that you are from Gulg. Etc.
I like the one poster's idea of just giving a penalty to skill checks to represent different accents, dialects, nuances, and cultural phrases...something like a -2 to Diplomacy and Insight; not Intimidate because someone scary enough barking in some heathen language might indeed scare the **** out of you
I like to think of each language as really a "language family", and I'd like to have degrees of fluency/literacy added as an aspect in my campaign. 1 is basic conversation, 2 is fluency, 3 is literacy, 4 is high education. Ranks will apply modifiers to a check depending on the situation.
I like the idea of "common" being a trade language like latin that everyone knows some words from, but for my campaign I'd like to get away from a generic language that everyone speaks fluently. The ranks of fluency help that -- I'll allow any character who grew up in a City-State or location dealing with trade of some kind to take "Common 1", but anything higher than that probably relates to being a trade house member or some kind of higher education -- so, high common in my game would just be related to having Common 3 or higher.
I think it makes sense that each city-state would have their own language family, that's a good place to start. Within the Tyr region, most villages or tribes would probably speak a dialect related to whichever City-State they dealt with the most.
Elven I see as having no central source and being related to the dialect of a specific elf tribe, but all related. Dwarven is perhaps more of a rare language, spoken only in heavily dwarven communities or on ceremonial occasions. In any case, I'll probably award Racial languages based more on background than race. An elf growing up in Nibenay but dealing occasionally with traders from elf tribes may for example have Nibenese 2, but only Elven 1. Thri-Kreen and Halfling are probably tribe-based like Elven.
As far as trade houses, the spoken language in the house would probably be based on the city state they are headquartered in. So House Shom would speak common (or "tradespeak") with heavy Nibenese colloquialisms thrown in. Or speak Nibenese with lots of tradespeak jargon. Elf tribe traders would speak Elven/Common hybrid, respectively.
I'll probably handle starting languages by whatever makes sense for the character's background and which theme they choose. Templars and Noble adepts probably have higher ranks in their specific languages. Dune Traders probably have multiple languages. Wasteland Nomads may have less languages, or may need a special rule for being a speaker of a remote dialect.
Getting into dialects will probably be handled situationally with higher DCs on checks depending on how remote or obscure the dialect is. So for example someone with Nibenese 1 will have -2 to chat with someone in a remote village that speaks a strange dialect of Nibenay, whereas someone with Nibenese 4 would have a +8. Someone without Nibenese would be limited to hand signals at a -8 modifier. The DC would be the same (related to obscurity of dialect.)
Sorry for the ramble, just trying to think this out.
Naxel, I see those languages as being pidgin languages that are created out of necessity, combined with their own secret code and words acquired from exposure to others. Over time, with so many different ports, you end up with your own blend and it would be useful to have it to keep secrets, discuss negotiations privately, etc.. It probably is limited in some cases and much more about trade and such issues than other topics. But, in my game I see it as greater than a short code. It is a limited language.
I think there's a fair difference between a secret code that some merchant houses or Veiled Alliance cells use. I don't think they'd be full-blown out and out languages. People don't speak WWII military radio codes conversationally, if you know how I mean
Except Navajo.
I tend to use "Urikite" to describe things from Urik.
I struggled with this one. The Veiled Alliance supplement is one of the best resources for describing the city states.
It says:
Natives called "Urikites" or the slightly derogatory "Uri."
Urikite sounds ok for a person or thing from there but it just sounds weird to me for a language. My knowledge of this is low, but is ite really appropriate for a language? Uri would work well, except for the derogatory nature. That leaves Urikian, Uriki...
Urikese sounds appropriate for the language and adjectives, Urikite for the noun.
Dwarven, for instance, should probably not exist. Dwarves don't have their own cities where their language could thrive and evolve, nor do they occupy a privileged class (like nobles) that has both the money and the responsibilities to justify knowing a second language. Rather than learning two completely different systems of communication, it makes more sense for dwarves to learn only one language. Modern languages are probably influenced by dwarven - maybe engineering and architecture borrow a lot from the old languages, just as modern law uses Latin - but it's not likely that Dwarven would be living, spoken language.
Elves and halflings have no reason for having unique shared racial languages. Halflings largely occupy an ancient forest. It may not look big, but you don't need a ton of space for lots of languages (New Guinea has at least 1,000 languages). With no tradition of writing and widely varying tribal practices, there's almost no force that could actually keep halflings united in a common language. After centuries of isolation, there should be at least dozens of languages.
Elves are similar. Although their mobility might allow for greater intra-racial communication, they also roam a larger territory, allowing for greater drift. They're also more likely to be exposed to other languages which affect their own. If you split a tribe of elves, for instance, and sent half to live around Tyr and the other to live near Balic, fast forward 2000 years and you have some huge differences in speech.
Without assuming magical intervention, I don't think there's much of a reason for specific racial languages in most cases.
I would disagree here. Though there's no research I'm aware of between rates of language change (notoriously difficult to measure) and lifespan or birthrate, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the Elven language changes at a glacial pace compared to human due to lengthier lifespans, longer gestation time, etc. All of this is downplayed in 4e. Two thousand years to the elven language might well be like two centuries for human languages. Though, according to the lifespan stats from the 90s, Dwarves are the most long-lived of the Athasian races. At any rate, different rates of change could make different racial dialects mutually intelligible (at least for game-terms), so Urikite Dwarven and Raamish Dwarven could be dialects but not distinct languages. Whether or not you want to deal with multiple racial languages is up to you. Its quite reasonable that Forrest Ridge and Jagged Cliffs halfling might be distinct languages, just as each Elven tribe would have its own language plus a standard dialect of Elven that's shared among tribes and used in poetry and ceremonial situations. Note that the categorization of things into dialects and languages is murky in the real world. Everyone speaks some dialect, which may or may not be compatible with the established standard dialect of the language.
Furthermore, given the lack of interbreeding between races, its not unreasonable that, for the past 2000 years, dwarves and elves have maintained distinct communities despite their mingling with humans. One could easily imagine a Dwarven ghetto in each city-state, where the dwarves speak mostly dwarven among themselves but know the trade tongue and/or the local language as well. Half-Elves and Muls are often outcasts or otherwise removed from their cultural heritage, so many of them would speak the local language and be proficient in the trade tongue. Imagine, if you will, Jewish communities in this world who spoke their own languages (Yiddish, Ladino, etc.) while maintaining knowledge of their ancestral/liturgical languages (Hebrew and Aramaic) while living among speakers of other languages.
The original DS boxed set suggests a list of languages which includes: Aarakocra, Anakore, Belgoi, Braxat, Dwarf, Elf, Ettercap, Genie, Giant, Gith, Goblin Spider, Halfling, Jozhal, Kenku, Meazel, Thri-Kreen, Trade, and Yuan-ti in its list of possible languages for the DM to consider/modify (pages 4 & 5 of the rules book). Languages present a real barrier in DS and the old rules expect PCs to rely heavily on magic and psionics for communication, particularly when traveling. The revised boxed set also suggests each location has its own language "Saragarn [from the last sea region], Raamin, Imperial Kreen, etc." (Heroes of Athas page 8). So I'd put down at least seven city states at the very least, plus Eldaarich if you want that lost city state around. Long-standing and unaffiliated villiages and town would either have a dialect of their parent-state or their own (Balican in Altaruk, Kalidnese in Celic, etc. or their own language depending on how you want it to go). There would be remnants of the languages of the ruined cities (Yaramuke, Guistinal for the Dray, Kalidnay, etc.), which might be spoken by small groups still or just around as dead languages.
There are a couple rules issues with increasing the languages of the setting like this. Easy thing to do is adopt the third edition way of giving bonus languages based on one's intelligence bonus. Everyone would start with two languages: a racial or local language, and the trade tongue. Halflings and Thri-Kreen didn't get trade for free in the 90s, FYI. It might be interesting to associate a bonus language with the themes, giving most of them trade (except wasteland nomad or any primal theme?), and giving Dune Trader, Noble Adept, or Templar an extra language. You might consider giving some paragon paths or epic destinites a bonus language as well. Finally, since the current incarnation of psionics is actually quite limited in terms of telepathy, I'd augment the basic set of feats with one that grants short-range telepathy (maybe limited to 3 squares or melee touch to keep Kalashtar's racial trait unique, or limit it to a certain type of creatures reptile, insect, etc.). It'll do more or less what the linguist feat does now. You may or may not want to limit it to say, psions, wilders, and noble depts or any psionic class or theme. Alternately, you could let characters with a psionic class or theme have their choice of a wild talent so telepathy could be chosen more readily.
As for how to handle languages, we again think on very similar paths. Here is my house rule section on languages:
Languages
Distances, danger, and the rule of the sorcerer-kings combine to make Athas a place of many languages.
The following rules are used for languages:
- PCs may select from a list of common Languages. Additional languages may be learned with in-character justification.
- Each PC speaks common. Halflings and Thri-kreen may decide to start speaking a different language other than common, as is often the case for members of these races.
- Each PC may select additional languages equal to one plus their Intelligence bonus (6 provides 4 additional languages). Languages usually reflect your background, such as time spent by you or your parents among certain races or city-states.
- Instead of picking a language, you may spend an extra "slot" on a language and learn to write the language. Most Athasians are illiterate.
- PCs with the Dune Trader theme can speak the language of one merchant house
- PCs with the Elemental Priest theme can speak Primordial
- PCs with the Noble Adept theme can read and write common
- PCs with the Templar theme may spend a single slot to read and write High Common
This is a work in progress and for my home campaign only. It certainly isn't for everyone - the simplicity of 4E makes sense within the spirit of the 4E rules set. You can see my house rules here as part of my Epic Words site.
I do really like the discussion. I know very little about how languages actually work and I dig hearing from people (regardless of whether we agree). A fantasy world gives us room to work with or without the logic of our world, which I always like.
If you can't communicate, how do you "Social"-ize ??
This means the party Fails more social skill challenges than usual.
So they fight more. Sounds like Dark Sun to me (evil grin).
Diluting the possible languages some, lessens the impact of the above.
Diluting the possible languages more, brings the above scenario into play.
That said, the History of Dark Sun, is fair game in any home game.
And why not?
Rules again ... hey look - Telepathy - solves most problems, creates others.
Kill the Mind Readers !!
1. All PCs can communicate fully with one another. Even if they don't speak the same languages, I find it rather cumbersome when player A speaks only halfling or player B only speaks Elven. You don't game with people that don't speak your language, your PCs don't adventure with somebody that doesn't communicate with you.
2. When you encounter a "social" skill challenge, one of the defining features is level of understanding. Playing a bunch of Noble-born adventurers would have trouble understanding the dialects of the fishermen, farmers and slave classes - even from neighbouring cities. Bartering with a Gith tribe that speak the trade tongue is still difficult. Parleying with a Thri-Kreen hunting party will require somebody to know the etiquette and traditions of the Thri-Kreen... language would actually a secondary requirement to that challenge (first impressions and body language is more important).
... and then, like the DM Golem said: there's always Mind Readers, and which party doesn't have a Psion or Ardent or Shardmind these days...
are supposed to have the same numbers targets
regardless of whether the Language situation works or not.
Easiest rules solution, is to increase the difficulty rating by 1.
Ettin says: "Me no unnerstand. Me Too no unnerstand."
DM says: that counts as a success
PCs say: What ?!