Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap May 26, 2011 20:07:26	In another thread, about house rules and such, Guysery2k posted... Halflings lose the "Bold" racial feature, and gain the Goliath racial feature "Powerful Athlete". They lose the +2 to Thievery, and gain +2 to Nature; Goliaths lose the "Powerful Athlete" racial feature, and gain the BugBear racial feature "Oversized". They lose the +2 to Nature, and gain +2 to Endurance; I think these are both AWSOME adjustments for these races in the Dark Sun setting.  However, in the main topic forum, some of the feedback I was getting was in regards to Oversized being "overpowered"/too tough, etc. My questions: 1. Is Oversized to tough for a player character race (goliath in this case) 2. If it is too tough, what is a good and balanaced workaround?  I really do like the ideas posted above, but not sure I want to risk overpowering the goliath with Oversized.  I thought instead, that I would find a different feature to replace it with or work something like, like this: Half Giants Crush (or Crushing Blow) You swing your weapon with all your might trading some accuracy for a crushing strike (Heavily tweaked minotaurs Goring Charge) Attack: STR vs AC Hit: 1 [W]+ Str damage +2 and knock the target prone. Level 11 +4 damage Level 21 +6 damage This power is not as "accurate" in that there is no bonus to hit (I could even put it at a penalty, like str -1 or 2).  It's vs AC (which tends to be higher then NADS) and is not a guarantee (like the half-orcs Furious Strike), so it hopefully comes out somewhat unique.  Does the damage seem right?  Should be more like +4, +6, +8? What do you all think about that?  Thoughts on Oversized?  Thanks!
#2 ultimate_cap May 27, 2011 13:38:40	OK, I'll reply to my own thread, and if anyone wants to join in, great...if not, I'll let if fall off the page. (really surprised there has been no reponse to this topic actually). A I am want to do, after a little further review, I re-worked my own half-giant racial feature.  This is based of a blending of a couple of barbarian powers (Devenstating Strike and Avalanche Strike).  Hopefully, it comes out being a little original and helps to capture the "power" of the half-giant. Half Giants Wrath - Half-Giant Feature You swing your weapon with all your might in a bone crushing smash Encounter Attack: STR vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + 1d10 + Strength modifier and knock the target prone. Level 11: 1[W] + 2d10 + Strength modifier and knock the target prone Level 21: 2 [W] + 3d10 + Strength modifier and knock the target prone Note: This replaces the Goliath feature Powerful Athlete Now, my original concept was that this was a "haymaker" style attack, trading accuracy for damage.  Is there any precedent in the 4e rules for a penalty to an attack?  If so, would it be warranted and would a -1 or a -2 to the attack be acceptable.  Is a penalty even warrented, or is the fact that it's an encounter (with no guarantee to hit) enough?
#3 obryn May 27, 2011 14:29:33	As for myself, I was initially okay with the Goliaths = Half-Giants equivalency, but I later came to change my mind.  I miss the 12' tall, obese, dim-witted thugs of the 1e setting.  So, in my own game... Goliaths are Goliaths.  They're a mountain-dwelling people, related to Giants, and still available as a PC race. Half-Giants are all changed to Large size, aren't available as a PC race, and basically are treated like every other monster. -=-=-=- In response to your ideas...  I think the Encounter power is a little too strong, when compared to other burly races.  (Compare to Half-Orcs, especially.)  It also requires Strength, which is probably okay, but also kind of limits the classes a goliath might pursue.  Then again, it IS a standard action, so it's tough to balance. I think you could pretty easily adapt the "swift kick" idea from their monster stat blocks.  Make it a Minor action, Str or Con + 3/6/9 vs AC, push 1 and 1d6+mod damage.  Add an optional feat which knocks prone after the push.  Done!  It would give them a feeling of great size and mass, being able to knock enemies away from them easily. -O
#4 ultimate_cap May 28, 2011 0:37:05	As for myself, I was initially okay with the Goliaths = Half-Giants equivalency, but I later came to change my mind.  I miss the 12' tall, obese, dim-witted thugs of the 1e setting.  So, in my own game... Goliaths are Goliaths.  They're a mountain-dwelling people, related to Giants, and still available as a PC race. Half-Giants are all changed to Large size, aren't available as a PC race, and basically are treated like every other monster. -=-=-=- In response to your ideas...  I think the Encounter power is a little too strong, when compared to other burly races.  (Compare to Half-Orcs, especially.)  It also requires Strength, which is probably okay, but also kind of limits the classes a goliath might pursue.  Then again, it IS a standard action, so it's tough to balance. I think you could pretty easily adapt the "swift kick" idea from their monster stat blocks.  Make it a Minor action, Str or Con + 3/6/9 vs AC, push 1 and 1d6+mod damage.  Add an optional feat which knocks prone after the push.  Done!  It would give them a feeling of great size and mass, being able to knock enemies away from them easily. -O Thanks for the reply and comments.  In response the first item, I'm not too concerned about it being "too tough".  The half-orcs ablity, for example, is a guarentee (you use it on any successful hit...no chance for it to miss).  Also, compare it to the barbarians Devistating Strike.  Same damage format, but Devistating Strike is an at-will.  Half Giants Wrath is an Encounter that can miss (no guarantee).  One more to compare...the barbarians Avalanche Strike (a 1st level encounter that is 3 Weapon + Str Mod).  It's pretty much in line with that.  Avalanche Strike has a bit more damage potential, Half Giants Wrath has a prone effect. Now, for your second comment...ok, not sure why I didn't think of that before.  Hmmm...You know, I like that!  I can base the stats off an re-skinned ogre.  I can even use my power (Half Giants Wrath) as an encounter for the monster....hmmm....I'm starting to think I like that idea a lot more.  Guess I never thought of it cuz half-giants were a playable race back in 2nd ed.  Thanks again for the comments...I really am thinking I may go that "monster" route for them and just make the goliaths available as is.  Dangit, now you've given me something to think about!
#5 Ozmodious May 28, 2011 10:26:54	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love.
#6 Alex_ May 28, 2011 12:02:18	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love.   I'm pretty sure Goliaths have a feat or sometin that lets them smack people around..   And core Elves are already pretty darn nimble.  They have the highest base speed, get a bonus to overland travel, and can shift squares where others can't.  There's little need to change their stats to make them fit with the "swift of foot" Athasian Elf because they already fit it so well.
#7 ultimate_cap May 28, 2011 12:11:57	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love. Thankd for the reply my friend.  You know, I agree 100% with what you are saying.  I love 4e, but sometimes the whole balance thing drives me nuts.  Balance is great, I understand that, it makes it more fun for everyone, but sometimes it loses something in the translation. To me, those things you mention (in regards to the half-giant and the elf) just smacks of laziness on the part of the design team.  Is it really that hard to do something to bring those races that "different" feel mechanicallly???  Really?  Just perusing these forums I come accross a plethora of awsome ideas that were really easy to come up with. I'm slowing going through the races to get a "different' mechanical feel, where I can.  Halfings in my work, for example, will trade the +2 thievery for +2 nature (halflings are different in this game).  At least I'll make it an option. I think I am going with the idea though, of making the Half-Giant a monster.  I can retain that large size then, keep the flavor, and still have goliaths as an option for players.  Just looked at the ogre brute in the MV, and it is awsome to use as a half giant.  A little re-flavoring and he'll be good to go.  Maybe kick the intelligece up just a tad (to around 7 or so).  And that's it. Next up for me...elves!  We are going to see what we can do about that speed thing!
#8 ultimate_cap May 28, 2011 12:16:07	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love. Thankd for the reply my friend.  You know, I agree 100% with what you are saying.  I love 4e, but sometimes the whole balance thing drives me nuts.  Balance is great, I understand that, it makes it more fun for everyone, but sometimes it loses something in the translation. To me, those things you mention (in regards to the half-giant and the elf) just smacks of laziness on the part of the design team.  Is it really that hard to do something to bring those races that "different" feel mechanicallly???  Really?  Just perusing these forums I come accross a plethora of awsome ideas that were really easy to come up with. I'm slowing going through the races to get a "different' mechanical feel, where I can.  Halfings in my work, for example, will trade the +2 thievery for +2 nature (halflings are different in this game).  At least I'll make it an option. I think I am going with the idea though, of making the Half-Giant a monster.  I can retain that large size then, keep the flavor, and still have goliaths as an option for players.  Just looked at the ogre brute in the MV, and it is awsome to use as a half giant.  A little re-flavoring and he'll be good to go.  Maybe kick the intelligece up just a tad (to around 7 or so).  And that's it. Next up for me...elves!  We are going to see what we can do about that speed thing! Well, second item first...on the elvesI'll go with that.  Actually, it does already fit really well.  Great point. first point second...I'll have to disagree.  It still is just a goliath re-flavored.  It's not a half-giant.  Even the roll twice for athletics doesn't fit the half-giant.  Nor does the +2 to nature.  There's nothing wrong with Goliaths in Dark Sun, but they are not half-giants (not like the old days anyway).  I think keeps goliaths "golaiths" and making half-giants a monster actually works really well.
#9 Alphastream May 28, 2011 16:19:12	I really like the half-gaint variant that Cyber-Dave posted. Follow the leader captures the mercurial personality in a solid way that is conducive to RP. Giant's Stature conveys the idea of size without falling prey to common problems. Large size is a tremendous problem for PCs in 4E. It may not be critical for an individual player if the player is not heavy on optimization, but the effects of large size on bursts, on OAs, and similar all mean the heavy optimizer can break or hurt the game. Oversized is a bit too strong as well. Again, ok for a few players here and there but bad as a broad policy.
#10 Alex_ May 28, 2011 19:29:54	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love. Thankd for the reply my friend.  You know, I agree 100% with what you are saying.  I love 4e, but sometimes the whole balance thing drives me nuts.  Balance is great, I understand that, it makes it more fun for everyone, but sometimes it loses something in the translation. To me, those things you mention (in regards to the half-giant and the elf) just smacks of laziness on the part of the design team.  Is it really that hard to do something to bring those races that "different" feel mechanicallly???  Really?  Just perusing these forums I come accross a plethora of awsome ideas that were really easy to come up with. I'm slowing going through the races to get a "different' mechanical feel, where I can.  Halfings in my work, for example, will trade the +2 thievery for +2 nature (halflings are different in this game).  At least I'll make it an option. I think I am going with the idea though, of making the Half-Giant a monster.  I can retain that large size then, keep the flavor, and still have goliaths as an option for players.  Just looked at the ogre brute in the MV, and it is awsome to use as a half giant.  A little re-flavoring and he'll be good to go.  Maybe kick the intelligece up just a tad (to around 7 or so).  And that's it. Next up for me...elves!  We are going to see what we can do about that speed thing! Well, second item first...on the elvesI'll go with that.  Actually, it does already fit really well.  Great point. first point second...I'll have to disagree.  It still is just a goliath re-flavored.  It's not a half-giant.  Even the roll twice for athletics doesn't fit the half-giant.  Nor does the +2 to nature.  There's nothing wrong with Goliaths in Dark Sun, but they are not half-giants (not like the old days anyway).  I think keeps goliaths "golaiths" and making half-giants a monster actually works really well.   The Powerful Athelete (reroll any athletics check) actually helps make them more like a Hlaf-Giant in function.   They are twice as likely to succeed on any given Athletics check, which includes things like lifting heavy objects, jumping over ravines, chucking rocks, holding onto to objects, and doing anything that involves raw muscle power.   But no, they're still not just like the old Half-Giants.
#11 ultimate_cap May 29, 2011 0:16:05	I loved the old 1/2 giants but understand why they did what they did for 4th ed. There is no paying double for giant sized equipment, floating alignment, and no fear of not being able to "fit" in a dungeon. The Goliaths are great for the role but I can understand why you wish to add something more to them. I feel that just changing the name of the Goliath to Half Giant was not enough. The one thing about the old DarkSun was that it felt different than the other worlds that were out there so just adding a little flavor without a little change is all in the perception and nothing mechanical. The Goliath should have had some knockdown effect like you have suggested or the like to represent their great strength instead of falling back on the Goliath races stone skin. One simple change and it would have made the game better imho. Of course like the elf nit getting a ever running ability or another square or two of movement for being an Athasian Elf falls under the same thing. All in all I live with it and don't homebrew anything to "fix" the little things, cause for me, it just leads to my players complaining about all the old rules compared to the new rules. The things that just name changing the Goliaths did and didn't fix were understandable and acceptable to me and my group. I liked the power that caused knockdown and don't see anything wrong with incorporating it into your game to show how the 1/2 giants are so strong, they deserve a little love. Thankd for the reply my friend.  You know, I agree 100% with what you are saying.  I love 4e, but sometimes the whole balance thing drives me nuts.  Balance is great, I understand that, it makes it more fun for everyone, but sometimes it loses something in the translation. To me, those things you mention (in regards to the half-giant and the elf) just smacks of laziness on the part of the design team.  Is it really that hard to do something to bring those races that "different" feel mechanicallly???  Really?  Just perusing these forums I come accross a plethora of awsome ideas that were really easy to come up with. I'm slowing going through the races to get a "different' mechanical feel, where I can.  Halfings in my work, for example, will trade the +2 thievery for +2 nature (halflings are different in this game).  At least I'll make it an option. I think I am going with the idea though, of making the Half-Giant a monster.  I can retain that large size then, keep the flavor, and still have goliaths as an option for players.  Just looked at the ogre brute in the MV, and it is awsome to use as a half giant.  A little re-flavoring and he'll be good to go.  Maybe kick the intelligece up just a tad (to around 7 or so).  And that's it. Next up for me...elves!  We are going to see what we can do about that speed thing! Well, second item first...on the elvesI'll go with that.  Actually, it does already fit really well.  Great point. first point second...I'll have to disagree.  It still is just a goliath re-flavored.  It's not a half-giant.  Even the roll twice for athletics doesn't fit the half-giant.  Nor does the +2 to nature.  There's nothing wrong with Goliaths in Dark Sun, but they are not half-giants (not like the old days anyway).  I think keeps goliaths "golaiths" and making half-giants a monster actually works really well.   The Powerful Athelete (reroll any athletics check) actually helps make them more like a Hlaf-Giant in function.   They are twice as likely to succeed on any given Athletics check, which includes things like lifting heavy objects, jumping over ravines, chucking rocks, holding onto to objects, and doing anything that involves raw muscle power.   But no, they're still not just like the old Half-Giants.  No, they're not, however, I do like your points on Athletics.  It's Atheltics, not acrobatics, so excellent point there.  That's why I post these discussions.  Love the input and viewpoints and often get some insite I have not considered (but considering how many ballys I am jugging try to setup the game world, as well as real like, its I wonder i dont forget more stuff, lol). In the end, I believe I'm still just going to make them a monster.  I really like that suggestion.  Keeps the old school feel of the half giant, as well as keep goliaths as a viable racial option.