Can no longer... resist. Can't wait until 2010. M-must run Dark Sun...sooner! To that end, I am forced by an irresistable love of Athas to design my own version of 4th Edition Dark Sun! No other way! When the time is right, when the Campaign Guide to Dark Sun is released, I will blend the elements in it with those in my own setting, as the consequence of a cataclysmic upheaval the players will take part in. Whatever works will be merged into my own Athas. There are several issues to resolve, and since I can't wait for the developers to create official answers, I must seek answers myself.
Question #1: What to do with the Feywild?
4th Edition D&D Worlds all have a prime material, and two parallel planes. It's easy to imagine a Shadowfell, something more desolate and dark, but what about a Feywild? The Feywild is supposed to be verdant and rich with life and fertility, as well as danger. But for Athas, if there was any way to get to a verdant parallel world, then every villager, warlord, defiler, and sorceror king would go to any lengths and sacrifice whatever they had to to possess the water and richness of a fertile feywild. After scratching out a meager existence in a blasted, spell-tangled, monster-haunted wasteland, no risk would be too great to secure rich territory in the Feywild. Yes, yes, the Feywild has dangerous fey, but people on Athas are used to Gaj's, Dune Reapers, ruthless bandits, cannibal halflings and other monstrosities. It would be well worth the risk.
If there was any reliable means to reach a verdant, parallel world, the ruthless survivors of Athas would either rule it, or die trying.
What sort of homeland for Eladrin should there be that would not start a war just by it's very nature? Could it be abundant, but not universally appealing? My gaming group is eager for ideas along this thread.
I actually made a post on the EnWorld forums on the Athasian Feywild that got a few compliments, so I'll share it with you here.
The Feywild should be extinct. Not non-existant, extinct. Athas once had one, but Defiling magic drained the Feywild first. The Feywild is not only "nature" turned up to 11, but also magic. Arcane engery suffuses the Feywild. If Defiling magic drains energy, then it might be the case that the original users of Defiler magic didn't even necessarily know they were defiling. They just tapped into this apparently limitless source of energy. Little did they know that they were destroying an entire plane of existance. And once the Feywild was siphoned off completely, with not even a dry husk to leave behind (because even a husk has inherent fey energy in the Feywild), the defilers were addicted to the practice and began using the only other source of energy available: Athas.
This way you don't have to modify any fey origin creatures (their species is native to a plane that no longer exists) without having to compromise Athas's harshness.
Oohhh.... that might work... the Feywild is already ruined, drained eons ago in the Green Age by Defiler magic. That would sort of put the boot on the other foot - sounds like the Fey would have to invade Athas to survive! And they would bear a grudge. Some fey, like Eladrins could still slip back to the Feywild for an instant to Teleport, but their only hope for survival is on Athas. Ohhh.... that could be spicy... Maybe there are still fabulous treasures left behind in the abandoned cities, defended by magical traps and guardians - but perhaps what land remains is barren and poisonous!
No offence to the other settings in this part of the boards, but is it not time after the announcement that the Dark sun sub forum was given equal footing to the FR and Eberron sub forums?
Whether the Feywild still exists or not (or ever did), the eladrin could have been "wiped out" by the Cleansing Wars. They could still exist however, if treated like the barghest. Eladrin are "throwbacks" born to elves. They could be either treasured as a good omen or discarded as a curse. Eladrin could be found mainly in city-states or slave villages due to the fact that they couldn't keep up with their longer-legged kin.
Yes... I think I've got it mainly figured out. The ideas on this forum have been very helpful. The Defilers found that the overwhelming life-force of the Feywild was virtually limitless, so it seemed. But as more and more power was drawn to fight the Cleansing Wars, the Feywild was rapidly consumed. Great Eladrin Arch-fey devised a desperate solution: An artifact was found from the Blue-Age, a powerful LifeShaper Eldritch Machine, and a great Tower was built to magnify and distribute its power. (analogous to the Pristine Tower) But just as the Rhulisti miscalculated their effort to double the output of the oceans, the Archfey also erred.
They sought to replenish their drained world from all that Defiler Magic had taken, and sure enough - new growth returned to the bleached, barren parallel plane. All the new life is of course, utterly toxic. Natural plants cannot grow in the soil, the new, stunted, black plants are bitter and poisonous to anything not created as part of the magic that spawned them. There are more oases here than on Athas, but anyone who drinks these gray waters will suffer nausea, delirium, and likely death.
Many powerful fey and Eladrin escaped to Athas to survive, where the Eladrin where subject to the genocidal purges of the Cleansing Wars. While it seemed that they and the mightiest Fey were annihilated, as long as the Elves survive, the Eladrin can return. For some elves still hold in themselves the ancient bloodlines of their forebears, and one in twenty elven births is in truth an Eladrin. While not as fleet and swift as their racial cousins, their teleportation ability can be invaluable for stealth purposes.
But there were many other varieties of Fey that could not leave their home. Some Fey are tied inextricably to a certain piece of land. Some Fey have a soul that is embedded in a tree. These can never leave, but found that they could no longer survive the poisonous, dark ecology that has arisen. Unable to feed or draw life from the land - some found a hard, harsh solution: Surviving Fey have found that they can drain the life from natural born creatures from Athas - if only they can be lured to cross-over. That rich oasis before you - where no Oasis has ever been reported, that glittering, golden palace rising out of the sands - those who stumble towards it to quench their thirst will find themselves attacked, subdued and imprisoned. The Fey will not slay you outright, merely drain your blood and water as long as possible, then use magic to slow your body's decay, that they may continue to drain the last bit of nourishment from your flesh as long as possible - for it is the only way they have found to survive.
That pot of gold shimmering hazily in the sun, that ravishing maiden with ivory-white hair rising from a crystalline pool of water, all are traps to delight and lure the unwary that your life and blood may sustain the desparate, depraved Fey.
No offence to the other settings in this part of the boards, but is it not time after the announcement that the Dark sun sub forum was given equal footing to the FR and Eberron sub forums?
I believe this has been suggested somewhere in the Community Business forum.
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A possibility I've broached is that the Athas Feywild is still lush and verdant- but just as the Core Feywild is "more intense" then the Core World, so too is the Feywild of Athas; it's lusher and wetter here, but also hotter and more dangerous. Survival in a desert environment does not equate to survival in an equal hot jungle- the temperature and, perhaps more importantly, the stiffling winds and humidity means an unwary traveller can literally boil to death here, and there's nowhere on Athas that you can learn how to survive in this kind of environment. Beyond that, there's the danger of the life here- Athas is deadly, but in a natural way; it won't hesitate to kill you if you're too weak or too stupid, but it isn't actively trying to hurt you. Feythas, on the other hand, is not so gentle- Feythas hates you, hates all mortal life, and wants to kill you. The plants, the animals, the insects, the very earth underfoot, all of it is actively trying to kill you from the moment you enter their home.
Also, I may be wrong, but don't Defilers only drain the life from the land around them when they're actually casting? Meaning they can't go somewhere lush, suck it dry, then go into the wastes and unleash a suped-up spell? If this is wrong, then where's the big problem with Feywild Athas still having plenty of life, particularly if it's as hostile and dangerous (if not more so) then the deserts and badlands of the Materium Athas? Yes, Defilers are much stronger if they can get there, but they'll only be that strong if they reach there, and there's the fact they'll be a hatori out of sand, and in an environment actually trying to kill them.
Yes, a poisonous feywild with life-sucking Fey driven to madness by hunger would accomplish much the same purporse.
While I dunno whether or not I will actually use any manner of Feywild in my Dark Sun one idea I had was:
First off, this is sort of dependent on my own personal taste for the setting. In which a plenty of the environmental problems with Athas while certainly helped along by the workings of intelligent forces is also thanks to the sun just going through some random change in its workings. So it is dark because of sunspots, and there is solar flares, it is hotter, etc, etc. which is toasting Athas.
For the Feywild, it is actually the normal Athas but in different time, with a different sun blazing over head. While I am not sure exactly what form it would take I have figured out what the Shadowfell would be like. The Shadowfell is Athas of the future, the sun has finally burnt Athas to a cinder, leaving a chard black rock of a planet behind, only the hardiest of mutated animals remain along beside the spirits of the now deceased. In the sky above a dimly glowing white-dwarf star circles.
While I dunno whether or not I will actually use any manner of Feywild in my Dark Sun one idea I had was:
For the Feywild, it is actually the normal Athas but in different time, with a different sun blazing over head. While I am not sure exactly what form it would take I have figured out what the Shadowfell would be like.
I thought about something very similar once, an earlier, greener Athas but again - with a Feywild, there are numerous connections between the planes that allow people to cross over. If they could do so, the Feywild would face endless waves of settlers. The Fey probably aren't any worse than the horrific psychic monstrosities people face on a daily basis. Bandits, rebel slaves, and Sorceror Kings would make a mad dash for this Verdant land - and they would either claim it - or die trying. It would be well worth the risk compared to living on wretched Athas. And then, the game wouldn't be set on Athas - the game would take place in the corner of the Feywild where everyone was warring with the Fey over settlement rights - it wouldn't be roleplaying in a desert planet. That logical conclusion is the whole reason for this thread - to still have roleplaying in a desert world.
If they Feywild was more verdant, but poisonous, that would allow both worlds to retain what makes them unique and valid.
Well the Feywild can still be a desert environment, the Feywild need not be lush, it is simply the more extreme version of nature in the natural world. So for Athas that would mean even more harsh desert, more vicious psionic animals and plants and so forth. I can imagine the Fey being harsh controllers of the landscape, watching over what few resources there are, hunting people for the water within their bodies, forcing people to pay exotic and bizarre prices for water and so forth.
To go with my time-period idea, I would have it earlier but not one where it is green and lush. Rather right when everything goes to hell, the current Athas is actually less harsh then that time-period. I can see the sun being some massive red-giant, solar flares scorching the planet occasionally (perhaps sending waves of energy to cause the beginning of the psionic changes). Being earlier on there could be more metal, large cities and so forth, and so these are fought over as the world goes to hell.
The Fey could also be replaced by something else to of similar style, that already exists in Dark Sun.
Same here. I've been looking forward to 4th Ed for a long time now. I see they changed the Forums yet again? Jeez make up your mind Wizards.
While I dunno whether or not I will actually use any manner of Feywild in my Dark Sun one idea I had was:
First off, this is sort of dependent on my own personal taste for the setting. In which a plenty of the environmental problems with Athas while certainly helped along by the workings of intelligent forces is also thanks to the sun just going through some random change in its workings. So it is dark because of sunspots, and there is solar flares, it is hotter, etc, etc. which is toasting Athas.
Maybe it's not the sun.
Since there was a major defiling of the planet (or a big part) why not the ozone in the atmosphere was drained? Now been less thick, the color of the sky changed and such.
No, they've made it clear that Defiling kills plants and ruins soil, and Darksun timelines blames the changes in the Sun from the magic of the pristine tower.
Theres somthing were forgeting here just becouse the other realms have a faywild does not mean darksun needs one. Players in darksun would not ask where it went or if it ever was becouse they don't even know the other realms have one thats out of charicter knowledge.
True. But I bet that most of the common people of the core world don't realize the Feywild exists either. The heroes probably don't unless they interact with it or are Eladrin themselves.
Not saying that Athas HAS to have a Feywild equivalent, but it COULD.
Athas will need a Feywild because all of the 4e settings have analogs to the new Core cosmology. The developers have long complained that the 2nd edition strategy of multiple worlds fragmented the fan base; so it's clear that their new plan is to adapt every 4E world with the standard cosmology, allowing new releases of races, powers, and classes to be useful to all fans in any setting.
Wonder where Dragonborn will fit in? Perhaps spawned from a Dragon/God/Sorceror man as magical "food"?
If you're keen enough you can play now.
Its a little early to play yet, most of the darksun specific stuff hasnt been statted. Would be hard to make up that much temp data.
I'm playing 4th ed Dark Sun now 
it's pretty easy.
a) as I've said before, take Athas as the world of mutation, your character may look Human, but have the stats of a goliath, or tiefling etc.
Tieflings are, oh, just another odd race from the desert or mutations...folk in Athas don't really care what you are, except if you are attacking them.
b) stating combats in 4th ed is EASY, do folk know this?
So, you have a fight with some tembos, all you need do is decide their level, role then give them whatever powers you want based on their lore! you just make it up people, it's easy
If an encounter is against say, some baazrags, you can just take stats for perhaps, orcs, or hobgoblins, maybe add a new power like oh "basic attack on being reduced to 0 hp" to show their ferocity. DMG has tables for damage for ALL creatures , you just skin them to fit and add whatever powers seem suitable with damage, AC and defences as per the DMG
The Monster Builder with DDI is awesome for that
I cannot wait until Dark Sun comes out. I am such a huge fan. I miss playing a Gladiator and I can't wait to play a thri-kreen or a Half-Giant again.
1UP for WOTC for bringing back Psionics. I still have teh 2nd Edition Psionics and my head gets dizzy at looking at all the calculations and tracking I had to do. I was extremely dissapointed with 3rd edition 
Anyone have any info on what the stats for dragons are gonna be?
Athasian dragons shouldn't HAVE stats, period!
You meet the Dragon of Tyr on a bad day or are impolite, you die, that is all. ;)
Athasian dragons shouldn't HAVE stats, period!
You meet the Dragon of Tyr on a bad day or are impolite, you die, that is all. ;)
If you are on epic level, he should give you a bad day. But it should be possible to come out alive (or even unlive 
)
If I were to do the sorcerer kings, they would be on par with Orcus and Demogorgon. This is an Androponis I threw together using the Monster Builder. It is just an example I created and not meant to be truly representative. I took elements of the brown dragon and threw in a couple of additional arcane and psychic powers for flavour. The dragon kings should be intimidating opponents, but like Orcus and Demogorgon they could be interesting endgame opponents.
Demon Lords and Archdevils are between level 28 Solo and 34 Solo.
Godhood: Vecna is 35 Solo and Bahamut is 36.
A simple rule is, add 4 level to their 2E level so The Dragon will be just under the Gods in power.
So a 2nd Edition 21st level Sorcerer-King will start at 25th (a powerful challenge for 21st-level epic characters) in 4E and the Dragon will reach 34th level (a powerful challenge for ending epic characters).
Original Box Timeline Level (based on Veiled Alliance and Revised for ''New'' Sorcerer-King):
- 21 (now 25): Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy (Revised box: survive so 23/now 27), Andropinis, Hamanu (Revised box: survive so 23/now 27)
- 22 (now 26): Tectuktitlay, Daskinor
- 23 (now 27): Nibenay (In Revised Box 24 and rising, now 28)
- 24 (now 28): Oronis
- 29 (now 33): Dregoth
- 30 (now 34): The Dragon
A simple rule is, add 4 level to their 2E level so The Dragon will be just under the Gods in power.
Where is this simple rule from as I have never heard of it.
So a 2nd Edition 21st level Sorcerer-King will start at 25th (a powerful challenge for 21st-level epic characters) in 4E and the Dragon will reach 34th level (a powerful challenge for ending epic characters).
Technically, in order to be a Dragon King you must have progressed to 20th level in both the wizard class and the psionicist class. This would make them more a 40+ level creature. Only half-elves could multi-class their way to Dragon King status and all the Kings were previously human (I think).
Using this formula would make them either too weak (using your stats) or, possibly, way too strong(if we go with 40th level). I like the idea of comparing them to creatures like Orcus or Demogorgan.
With the simple rule of thumb, Orcus will be equal in power with Dregoth (a 29th level Dragon) and Demogorgon will be equal with The Dragon.
Baphomet, Dispater, Yeenoghu are level 28 Solo, range of Nibenay and Oronis.
Other Sorcerer-King are less powerful, that's why they are between level 25 and 27 Solo.
We cannot directly compare 2E mechanic and 4E mechanic, but with this rule of thumb, every Sorcerer-King are in the same range of Demon Lords & Archdevils.
I'm seeing the Sorcerer kings ranging from 18th-28th level with Borys topping in at about 32-34.
18? More a level for a powerful Trade Lord but Sorcerer-King must be at least of the Epic tier since they are immortal, wielding powerful defiling and psionic magic, making epic psionic enchantment, transforming into dragons and granting spells to templar.
25 is a good start as even the lowest Sorcerer-King will be a tough battle for starting epic tier adventurers.
If you are of the paragon tier, you need some athasian artefacts like the Sword that ''killed The Dragon'' or the Spear to kill Kalak (or some others).
I'm picture a wider gap between some of the Kings, I really don't see Kalak any higher than 22. I admit I haven't cracked open the box and books for a while though.
In 2E, Kalak died as a level 25 Defiler/Psionicist (City-State of Tyr book p.71-72). So in mid-dragonhood.
Just don't picture the party facing him as upper paragon.
However I bow to superior knowledge on the setting.
In 2E, Kalak died as a level 25 Defiler/Psionicist (City-State of Tyr book p.71-72). So in mid-dragonhood.
This just points to one of the many discrepencies of the Dark Sun Mythos. Kalak has been described as 21st level dragon (in Dragon Kings) to 25th level (in City-State of Tyr).
I have to say that if the books comes out with statted Dragon Kings I can only hope that they will be in the 30s for level, otherwise I would be extremely disappointed and will have to adjust them. Not that that should be a problem with the Monster Builder.
Yup Kalak was a 21st-level dragon, so killable by a 17th-level paragon pc group.
They just said that in Freedom, after receive the spear in the chest, he retreat to begin a complete transformation to full dragonhood.
He simply died/was stop at level 25th of a full-dragon metamorphosis.
I don't think Kalak would have succeed anyway, as Kalid-Ma tried it before and lost his mind (see the entry of Kalid-Ma Orbs Artefacts in Artefact of Athas). But Dregoth tried it also and nearly complete it.
But PC CAN and MUST disrupt his full-metamorphosis spell and stop a terrible slaughter of near all of Tyr citizens life-force leach in the process. That's a quest for mid-Paragon level range as Kalak is distracted with the casting of the spell and not at his most powerful.
Mouthymerc: not all of them will be 30+ as actually many Demon Lords & Archdevils are ''only'' 28 level+, so i think we will see them in the same range. Not Gods but not far.
The Dragon could eat the Tarrasque for breakfast, you kno, folks!
AD&D went from lvl 1 to 20, 4th goes from 1 to 30, so add 1/3rd to EVERYTHING'S level...
I dont think The Dragon will equal any God (so probably level 34) except maybe Vecna (level 35). So yeah, he will eat the Tarrasque (30th level).
Mouthymerc: not all of them will be 30+ as actually many Demon Lords & Archdevils are ''only'' 28 level+, so i think we will see them in the same range. Not Gods but not far.
I'm putting the Dragon Kings on the order of Orcus and Demogorgan with Dregoth and the Dragon himself more like Vecna and Tiamat. These are, for all intents and purposes, the "gods" of Athas and, I feel, should be treated as such.
You cannot squeeze seven Sorcerer-Kings (9 with Oronis and Daskinor) on only the level 33 and 34. No they will probably have a range of at least 5 level between them. So starting around 28 at least, But Sorcerer-Kings in Dark Sun are killable so they will start at 25. Dregoth will be around 32-33 and The Dragon between 34-36.
The Sorceror Kings are only killable, if they DM wants them to be killable. Sometime,s it's actually good if there are creatures the PCs simply cannot kill, and isntead, have to outsmart...or simply avoid.
Depends on what the individual campaign is like though
I quite liek the idea f the Sorceror Kings like the dread beings of Clark Ashton Smith, they're just so enormously removed from the norm, that killing them maybe impossible. or, killing them maybe WORSE than having them alive!
What foul things does their presence block from re-entering the world, or what horrid poison will seep from their fallen caracass...
Also remember they do NOT have to be the "Champions of Rajaat" in fact I strongly adivse folk NOT to go with the old "offical" history, but make up their own ideas for what exaclty the Sorceror Kings are. This keeps things a lot scarier and more fun, IMHO, for the players ;)
Hm, the Sorceror Kings as a group of mind flayers who got cut off and left on Athas, as there's no astral travel, and so, they became the sorceror kings....muhaha!!