Locks, Hinges, and the like... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Locks, Hinges, and the like...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
garwjenk
Dec 04, 2011 17:42:11 Hey guys, I am sure this has been addressed, but I am trying to figure out how to lock cell doors and for that matter how doors work with hinges and the like. What with there being very little metal...

Is it all made of bone?
#2
waxwingslain
Dec 04, 2011 19:08:50 I've turned this question over a lot myself recently. I do wonder if it has been addressed before. Check this thread for some discussion about metal scarcity:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28694717/Dark_Sun_4e_-_Metal_Scarcity_Help!!!

I posted this:

I think that Athasians would also have gotten to the point where they use metal when it's really, really necessary and make the other parts out of things like mekillot bone. For example, I ruled that crossbows do exist, but need some small metal parts in the mechanisms. I think that metal would be well worth using in things like the wheel assembly of an argosy, the pivot point of a heavy catapult, and the lock on an immobile vault of treasure. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense NOT to use, but it has to be economically realistic to use it.

I don't think you can realistically say "okay it's all the same but it's all made of bone" even though mekillot bone is very strong. I mean, you can for ease of use, but it drains a little Athasian flavor from the campaign if there are no consequences for having stuff be made of different materials.

Hinges aren't a problem, because most doors can have loops of tough hide or even giant-hair for the heaviest ones. If you're worried about your players cutting the hinges, just rule that the door swings inward and the hinges are behind the jamb, so they'd have to bust down the wall/door just to get to them. It's also not unrealistic to have a stone, bone, or wooden shield on the hinges from either side so the players essentially have to pry, hack, and chop at the door to get through it--not much different from smashing/chopping through a door you can't get through in standard D&D.

Heavy stone doors probably need more than hide loops, but they can have simple stone pins carved into the door that "drop in" to stone loops as hinges, or even stone loops on the door that have drop-in stone pins to attach them to loops carved in the jamb or wall.

Locks are a bigger problem. I think I am going to allow the simplest sort of locks to be made of bone, wood, and horn, but it's not realistic that "locks" as we think of them, with multiple small parts that need to be precision-crafted and super-thin yet able to hold up under stress, be made of anything other than metal. HOWEVER, two points:

1) Critical parts of the lock can be made of metal, but the large lock casing/plate could perhaps be carved or fused bone or chitin or agafari wood or something. It will up the cost of the lock a bit, but...

2) Locks protecting important stuff should be made of metal; metal is scarce but not completely absent from Athas, and it would be used frequently in the things that need it the most. Yes, it does mean that a good lock might be worth 500gp or 1000gp, but that's a worthwhile investment to protect something of value (think of how much security systems cost nowadays). And if the players start chopping locks out of doors to take with them sometimes, that's not actually a problem unless you as the DM puts a dozen metal locks in your poor peasant's home, which is unrealistic. So they get an extra 500gp worth of treasure after spending a lot of time and noise hacking and chopping. It happens (see all the people who steal copper wire from houses nowadays)

#3
DontEatRawHagis
Dec 04, 2011 22:55:46
Hey guys, I am sure this has been addressed, but I am trying to figure out how to lock cell doors and for that matter how doors work with hinges and the like. What with there being very little metal...

Is it all made of bone?

Wood works in some cases. Sometimes I use psionic power as a replacement. I agree for the most part with wax wing.

Most of the doors in my game though use wood and stone parts. Most locks are locked from one side while the other has no way of opening. As far as Vaults go, if they don't require psionics or magic, I make it so that they are wooden based. I tell the players who do successful theivery or perception checks that it is designed so that if the inner workings are set a blaze that the lock will stay in the lock will not open.
#4
Gallard
Dec 04, 2011 23:53:48 remember agafari wood is harder/stronger than stone. and giant hair is almost impervious. also, some critters have talons/teeth/bony-ridges that can cut steel.

some ceramics and glass-types can also have high strength.
#5
mouthymerc
Dec 05, 2011 17:03:16 And there's always the Ironwood ritual.
#6
waxwingslain
Dec 05, 2011 20:26:40 Yeah, I mean, the bottom line is that as a DM you can handle it a few ways. It's pretty easy to just say that between agafari wood and giant hair and other metal-analogues, you can have locks and hinges and disarmable traps just like you can in any other world, even though it doesn't make much sense if you think about it too hard. (Hell, neither do obsidian blades longer than a dagger without wooden support--like macuahuitls--but I am willing to bet that most Dark Sun campaigns have heroes running around with obsidian swords).

I like to get a little more complicated and follow the line of reasoning I detailed in my previous post, because if you get too free with "oh they just used agafari to make that lock plate, it's impenetrable just like metal" then it comes to the point of why metal is even a valuable material at all if it can so easily be replaced. Screw Tyr's crappy iron mines; I would send MY rezhatta-backed army to the Crescent Forest and strip it bare of agafari.
#7
pelagorn
Dec 06, 2011 21:13:27 The players and I had a discussion about this when my campaign first started, as most never actually played Dark Sun. But bottom line is that we don't think too hard about it.

But we did talk about some benchmarks. The armor conversion table is helpful to get a sense of what animal hides are the strongest (and can be used to generalize strong materials). And certain items (like a lock) may not be "metal equivalent" (akin to a +2 magical item) but relatively sturdy by Dark Sun standards.

Also, I can imagine, in a fantastical world like Dark Sun, that there are materials - like animal parts or plant components - that are pretty strong. Or that artisans or artificers (under the control of SKs) have perfected closely-guarded ceramic techniques that can be used to make lock or cage components.  Or there simply are new Athasian elements, with no real world equivalent, that can be forged into items made of metal in our world.

However, I do find these threads helpful - especially to get more into the sights, sounds and smells of the Dark Sun setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 garwjenk Dec 04, 2011 17:42:11	Hey guys, I am sure this has been addressed, but I am trying to figure out how to lock cell doors and for that matter how doors work with hinges and the like. What with there being very little metal... Is it all made of bone?
#2 waxwingslain Dec 04, 2011 19:08:50	I've turned this question over a lot myself recently. I do wonder if it has been addressed before. Check this thread for some discussion about metal scarcity: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28694717/Dark_Sun_4e_-_Metal_Scarcity_Help!!! I posted this: I think that Athasians would also have gotten to the point where they use metal when it's really, really necessary and make the other parts out of things like mekillot bone. For example, I ruled that crossbows do exist, but need some small metal parts in the mechanisms. I think that metal would be well worth using in things like the wheel assembly of an argosy, the pivot point of a heavy catapult, and the lock on an immobile vault of treasure. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense NOT to use, but it has to be economically realistic to use it. I don't think you can realistically say "okay it's all the same but it's all made of bone" even though mekillot bone is very strong. I mean, you can for ease of use, but it drains a little Athasian flavor from the campaign if there are no consequences for having stuff be made of different materials. Hinges aren't a problem, because most doors can have loops of tough hide or even giant-hair for the heaviest ones. If you're worried about your players cutting the hinges, just rule that the door swings inward and the hinges are behind the jamb, so they'd have to bust down the wall/door just to get to them. It's also not unrealistic to have a stone, bone, or wooden shield on the hinges from either side so the players essentially have to pry, hack, and chop at the door to get through it--not much different from smashing/chopping through a door you can't get through in standard D&D. Heavy stone doors probably need more than hide loops, but they can have simple stone pins carved into the door that "drop in" to stone loops as hinges, or even stone loops on the door that have drop-in stone pins to attach them to loops carved in the jamb or wall. Locks are a bigger problem. I think I am going to allow the simplest sort of locks to be made of bone, wood, and horn, but it's not realistic that "locks" as we think of them, with multiple small parts that need to be precision-crafted and super-thin yet able to hold up under stress, be made of anything other than metal. HOWEVER, two points: 1) Critical parts of the lock can be made of metal, but the large lock casing/plate could perhaps be carved or fused bone or chitin or agafari wood or something. It will up the cost of the lock a bit, but... 2) Locks protecting important stuff should be made of metal; metal is scarce but not completely absent from Athas, and it would be used frequently in the things that need it the most. Yes, it does mean that a good lock might be worth 500gp or 1000gp, but that's a worthwhile investment to protect something of value (think of how much security systems cost nowadays). And if the players start chopping locks out of doors to take with them sometimes, that's not actually a problem unless you as the DM puts a dozen metal locks in your poor peasant's home, which is unrealistic. So they get an extra 500gp worth of treasure after spending a lot of time and noise hacking and chopping. It happens (see all the people who steal copper wire from houses nowadays)
#3 DontEatRawHagis Dec 04, 2011 22:55:46	Hey guys, I am sure this has been addressed, but I am trying to figure out how to lock cell doors and for that matter how doors work with hinges and the like. What with there being very little metal... Is it all made of bone? Wood works in some cases. Sometimes I use psionic power as a replacement. I agree for the most part with wax wing. Most of the doors in my game though use wood and stone parts. Most locks are locked from one side while the other has no way of opening. As far as Vaults go, if they don't require psionics or magic, I make it so that they are wooden based. I tell the players who do successful theivery or perception checks that it is designed so that if the inner workings are set a blaze that the lock will stay in the lock will not open.
#4 Gallard Dec 04, 2011 23:53:48	remember agafari wood is harder/stronger than stone. and giant hair is almost impervious. also, some critters have talons/teeth/bony-ridges that can cut steel. some ceramics and glass-types can also have high strength.
#5 mouthymerc Dec 05, 2011 17:03:16	And there's always the Ironwood ritual.
#6 waxwingslain Dec 05, 2011 20:26:40	Yeah, I mean, the bottom line is that as a DM you can handle it a few ways. It's pretty easy to just say that between agafari wood and giant hair and other metal-analogues, you can have locks and hinges and disarmable traps just like you can in any other world, even though it doesn't make much sense if you think about it too hard. (Hell, neither do obsidian blades longer than a dagger without wooden support--like macuahuitls--but I am willing to bet that most Dark Sun campaigns have heroes running around with obsidian swords). I like to get a little more complicated and follow the line of reasoning I detailed in my previous post, because if you get too free with "oh they just used agafari to make that lock plate, it's impenetrable just like metal" then it comes to the point of why metal is even a valuable material at all if it can so easily be replaced. Screw Tyr's crappy iron mines; I would send MY rezhatta-backed army to the Crescent Forest and strip it bare of agafari.
#7 pelagorn Dec 06, 2011 21:13:27	The players and I had a discussion about this when my campaign first started, as most never actually played Dark Sun. But bottom line is that we don't think too hard about it. But we did talk about some benchmarks. The armor conversion table is helpful to get a sense of what animal hides are the strongest (and can be used to generalize strong materials). And certain items (like a lock) may not be "metal equivalent" (akin to a +2 magical item) but relatively sturdy by Dark Sun standards. Also, I can imagine, in a fantastical world like Dark Sun, that there are materials - like animal parts or plant components - that are pretty strong. Or that artisans or artificers (under the control of SKs) have perfected closely-guarded ceramic techniques that can be used to make lock or cage components. Or there simply are new Athasian elements, with no real world equivalent, that can be forged into items made of metal in our world. However, I do find these threads helpful - especially to get more into the sights, sounds and smells of the Dark Sun setting.