Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pawel Jun 22, 2010 16:15:51	What exactly is known about the magical items for players in the DS. Are they used?
#2 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 22, 2010 16:30:35	What exactly is known about the magical items for players in the DS. Are they used? Depends on the DM. I'd personally try to restrict/reduce the usage of magical items, relying more on innate bonuses and such as detailed in DMG2.
#3 Duke5150 Jun 22, 2010 18:45:31	I'm not sure how I will use magic items yet. I'm not going to get rid of them, if anything I'll allow basically anything (with exception) and just remove the enhancement bonus. Then again, I need to re-read the inherent bonus section in the dmg2. Magic items were as common in darksun as other settings(IIRC) but who knows what 4e DS will be like?
#4 Jacek Jun 22, 2010 19:11:14	What exactly is known about the magical items for players in the DS. Are they used? Depends on the DM. I'd personally try to restrict/reduce the usage of magical items, relying more on innate bonuses and such as detailed in DMG2. I agree, Dark Sun was a setting known for its unknown treasure, where even a bronze dagger was something of awe.  The innate bonus section in the DMG2 helps keeping the flavor of the old DS.
#5 punketah Jun 22, 2010 20:32:13	The free rpg day mentions the alternnate magic system of DMG2, however it also includes a magic weapon treasure.
#6 Pennarin Jun 22, 2010 21:20:29	Someone reported magic fruits in either Encounters or Free RPG, can't recall which. In short, yes.
#7 Tectuktitlay Jun 22, 2010 21:31:17	Any magical fruits? Yes.  In the very first encounter of Dark Sun Encounters, you (can) get two Healing Fruits.  There's at least one more encounter with three Healing Fruits as well.  They are mechanically identical to Potions of Healing, except for the name.  Thus, I would imagine that all potions in 4E DS will be referred to as "fruit".  Yay! :D
#8 Tyranthraxus Jun 22, 2010 21:58:49	There were magical fruit in the podcast adventure. 3 of them.
#9 greyorm Jun 22, 2010 21:58:56	I've always been a big proponent of making the "magical" treasure found in normal D&D into "psionic" treasure for Athas. While sometimes you can just get away with saying the items are psionically or elementally imbued. In terms of some items, just saying they are psionically-forged might be  enough, "The edge of this bone sword was psionically hardened and honed  to sharpness by Raam's Masters of the Way. Such quality! So light! Yet  you can cut through stone without worry." and "The psychic vibrations of  this blade are attuned to gather the ambient fires of the air and  release them when it strikes!" (get all New Agey). But this is just a change of origin, and I'd actually prefer more substantial differentiation, so that when you run across an arcane magic item from lost civilizations, it means something (maybe they're more powerful than psionic items, or not limited in some way, or not tied to elemental powers, or who knows). Or just something that mixes it up somewhat. Innate bonuses could certainly play into the psionic angle, with certain weapons psychically "aligning" themselves to their owners (or whatever). I also really like ideas that turn it all on its head, like Dark Sun's potion fruits! Potions aren't made in laboratories, they GROW ON FREAKING TREES. Maybe druids cultivate them. Another idea like this would be spell orbs, or spell beads. Fragile spheres of obsidian or clay that you shatter to release magical effects. Maybe the secret of making these is known, or maybe it was lost long ago and finding caches of them is an event. Or perhas all magic items, being that magic is tied to life force, have to either be alive or be a  part of a living being in order to function. Like armor made of living plants, so a Breastplate of Roses is literally a breastplate made of ever-blooming roses. And a Gem of True Seeing isn't just a gem you  look through, it's a crystal eye you have to replace your own eye with  in order for it to function. Perhaps only psionic items can be made of unliving material, or better: only made of bone, leather or chitin (once-alive things), and crystal, obsidian, or colored glass (psionically attuned materials). And primal spirits might gift their adherents with special weapons imbued with elemental power.
#10 silverbullet5774 Jun 22, 2010 22:19:48	I will be using innate bonuses and boons mostly, with very rare magic items that dont have enhancement bonuses, but instead have special powers relevant to quests and/or that give the players certain extra powers. Also, I like the idea mentioned about healing effects being stored in obsidian or clay beads, that sounds like something I might use along with healing fruits.
#11 Tectuktitlay Jun 22, 2010 22:43:01	I, likewise, prefer to make a campaign my own.  I will be using low levels of arcane magic as well, until the epic tier (at which point PCs will be getting more ancient arcane devices).  Once items and the like start to become truly world altering, they will be arcane in nature. Psionic items, and items with primal elemental spirits and spirits of the land imbuing them with power will be more likely at paragon.   Anything that makes sense in my own version of Athas as a psionic item will be allowed, and will be the most common items in the game.  Does it add to certain skills, enhance senses, allow telepathy or telekinesis, allow rerolls (clairsentience, anyone?), et al, and it will be allowed.  Inherent bonuses are a must.  Any property, any property at all that can make sense as a non-magical device (i.e., vicious weapons, weapons that increase non-typed ongoing damage, and a great many effects that have no obvious magical ability) will be allowed.  Otherwise, it needs to make sense FOR YOUR CHARACTER.  For example, a priest of fire can have a flaming weapon, and it won't even draw that much attention.  But that ability won't work for anyone else unless they, too, are a priest of fire. I will also be including the rhulisti technology.  In my version of Athas, the ancient halflings were 100% non-magical.  They were scientists.  Everything they utilized was completely based in genetic engineering, as well as traditional engineering.  Many items such as tattooes, a specific set of wondrous items, and so on, are actually lifeshaped.  Sure, some people hate that fluff, but I loved it.  It added a sweet, unique twist on Athas.  The world started off as a water world full of an incredible race of biotechnological experts, capable of feats of genetic engineering FAR beyond what we are capable of.  In my Athas, the ancient biocomputers still have information in ancient rhulisti accurately and precisely describing completely accurate science centuries ahead of our own, and a profound understanding of the world, physics, etc, that exceeds our own.  To your average Athasian, or even your genius level, sorcere-monarch or Rajaat-level intellects, this information has so little context that your average ancient rhulisti would have, that it is nearly meaningless.  If someone like Rajaat can find, essentially, a textbook on basic science...bam!!!  Suddenly, it will all slide in to place.  Until then, though... Magical fruits are indeed grown by druids and other primal characters.  They cultivate trees to achieve specific results that appear magical in nature.  However, they are only partially so.  In my Athas, these are remnants of ancient rhulisti technology that primal spirits have basic knowledge of, memories of, etc.  Sure, they don't understand the hard science.  But the know that if they breed plant X and plant Y in specific patterns for Z generations, they get a specific result, or close enough for their purposes.  There is, in fact, little actual magic.  Same goes for trees of life.  Those are just descendants of highly engineered plants, extremely long-lived and able to self-reproduce every so often under specific environmental conditions. Regardless, I am sure I can fit quite a bit of 4E material in, and have it make internal sense within my own vision of Athas. :D
#12 FlashbackJon Jun 23, 2010 11:05:01	I'd personally try to restrict/reduce the usage of magical items, relying more on innate bonuses and such as detailed in DMG2. I've been meaning to ask about this in the DM board, but this is as good as place as any. How do you handle all the non-bonus properties of magic items?  As a player, I typically consider these as central to my character concept as my feat selection.  As a DM, I want to devalue the items themselves (so that, for instance, breaking a weapon for a reroll isn't anathema to a player).   How do you "price" the resulting items?  Do you treat the enchantments as something else?  (For instance, a weapon enchantment is a weapon enchantment for the character, regardless of what he or she wields?)
#13 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 23, 2010 12:40:55	I'd personally try to restrict/reduce the usage of magical items, relying more on innate bonuses and such as detailed in DMG2. I've been meaning to ask about this in the DM board, but this is as good as place as any. How do you handle all the non-bonus properties of magic items?  As a player, I typically consider these as central to my character concept as my feat selection.  As a DM, I want to devalue the items themselves (so that, for instance, breaking a weapon for a reroll isn't anathema to a player).   How do you "price" the resulting items?  Do you treat the enchantments as something else?  (For instance, a weapon enchantment is a weapon enchantment for the character, regardless of what he or she wields?) I just wouldn't necessarily have those kinds of items, if I go the way of removing magic items, or significantly reducing them at the very least.
#14 FlashbackJon Jun 23, 2010 13:30:56	Interesting...  I mean, inherent bonuses only cover about 6(ish) total weapon enhancements that don't have some added functionality.  That's a consider number of items left to just not have. Not suggesting that's bad, just trying to come up with some solution that easily allows for, say, a lightning weapon or a staggering weapon or a vicious weapon without bonuses.
#15 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 23, 2010 13:35:23	Interesting...  I mean, inherent bonuses only cover about 6(ish) total weapon enhancements that don't have some added functionality.  That's a consider number of items left to just not have. Not suggesting that's bad, just trying to come up with some solution that easily allows for, say, a lightning weapon or a staggering weapon or a vicious weapon without bonuses. Well, the other possibility is to do like greyorm had suggested -- rework the items to being psionic in nature, rather than magic. In DS3, I'd have psionic items be prevalent, while magic items were mostly rare (and in most city-states downright illegal to possess). It stems from the idea that psionics are very common, while arcane magic is extremely rare. And in 4E, divine magic is unheard of, while primal magic is present.  So, if an item is psionic or maybe primal, I'd consider it -- swapping out a metal weapon or armor for something more Athasian and so-forth.
#16 merchant_of_shadows Jun 23, 2010 13:53:09	Unless build to exploit a particular item dependant cheese trick - characters are completely viable in with inherent bonuses to attack and defence and no other items whatsoever. Dark Sun is not a setting for characters who are defined by their magic items. This is not Eberron and this are not the forgotten realms. Dark Sun is a setting for characters who are defined by their blood, sweat, caution and cunning. Its a setting where your items get stollen, broken, consicated, eaten or just thrown away when traveling light requires it. It's a setting where you make with whatever you can find. You might do monstrous damage with your executioner's axe, but if when it gets taken away by the slavers who just captured you - you have to be able to put your hands around the neck of some unwary slaver, strangle him until he stops moving, pick his one handed club and fight your way to freedom. That wont happen if all your feats and powers are focused on the a specific weapon with specific enchantment on it and specific set of footgear. While this indeed puts a lot of character builds out of bussiness, it opens the door for many more that would be considered subpar from character optimisation point of view in the other settings. Dark Sun is not a sunny and sandy Sharn for your Lightning Weapon Lyrandar Windrider. I certainly DO HOPE that there isn't some solution that easily allows for lightning weapon. Dark Sun is not supposed to be "comfortable world". The first two things in your item wishlist are supposed to be water and food, not staggering glaive and rushing cleats.
#17 Duke5150 Jun 23, 2010 14:25:38	There is no reason item's can't have effects/powers in darksun and superior weapon feats won't become pointless either. It players are constantly having their items stolen or lost, then that is an issue with the dm and not the setting. It also depends on what kind of adventure the group is playing in. Slavery is fun for awhile, but it gets old and boring and frustrating after a time. Players don't like constant failure and punishment, normally. Some do. Which is why darksun is exactly what the group wants it to be. If that's a setting where magic items don't exist and players usually die before paragon, then that's up to the group. If it's a setting where magic items (general term as psionic items are magic items) exist without enhancement bonuses and players usually survive to achieve their epic destiny, that's up to the group. I'v yet to play in a 4e game where magic items define a character, rather than give players additional options.
#18 FlashbackJon Jun 23, 2010 15:30:09	I'm not overly worried about the concept of "magic items" vs. "psionic items."  I mean, I can simply call them "exceptional items" or "macguffin items" so long as the mechanics match. Unless build to exploit a particular item dependant cheese trick - characters are completely viable in with inherent bonuses to attack and defence and no other items whatsoever. Dark Sun is not a setting for characters who are defined by their magic items. Another interesting point, albeit one apparently colored by unfortunate previous experience.  I consider, as the DMG2 suggests in its inherent bonus block, that item powers/properties are a level of customization that character building cannot achieve by itself.  I enjoy it whether I am building some DPR King or whether I am going pure concept.  My players feel the same way. But as I clarified, I also like all the concepts you describe: gaining and losing equipment, making due with what you have, survival first and foremost. As such, I'm looking for an alternative that matches the system as it was designed -- with a wide selection of varied equipment with impressive, neat, and quirky powers -- without attaching the latter specifically to the former. As an example: what if Lightning Weapon were an enchantment to the character, rather than the weapon?   Level 5, "Cost" 1000GP, Property: add'l critical damage is lightning damage, At-Will and Daily power unchanged.  That works, by itself.  But the level 10 is unchanged except for the bonuses (which inherent bonuses have already handled), so where, if anywhere, does it fit?
#19 big_goon Jun 23, 2010 18:56:41	Dark Sun can be awesome when players are less concerned about collecting weapons, and more concerned about becoming a weapon - self improvement. In 2nd edition, races had high abilities score adjustments, a multitude of powers (both psionic and otherwise), and defeated enemies without the use of "tools". So why not continue that? Kind of like how warforged replace limbs with new items, players can build weapons right into their bodies: tattoos that infer mystical or psionic abilities unto their host; a glass eye that falls into the place of a blinded eye to confer enhanced sight; molten metal claws; a defiler's ritual that produces a magical orb for the day; martial training of ancient warrior caste long forgotten; hands like knives. These are the kinds of weapons that cannot be stolen when a player is enslaved. They cannot break these weapons because of poor materials. They last so long as a player lives. I'd like to see every and all player characters start to look awesome when they level up to paragon and epic tiers. My 2 cents
#20 Raddu76 Jun 25, 2010 10:18:34	As such, I'm looking for an alternative that matches the system as it was designed -- with a wide selection of varied equipment with impressive, neat, and quirky powers -- without attaching the latter specifically to the former. As an example: what if Lightning Weapon were an enchantment to the character, rather than the weapon?   Level 5, "Cost" 1000GP, Property: add'l critical damage is lightning damage, At-Will and Daily power unchanged.  That works, by itself.  But the level 10 is unchanged except for the bonuses (which inherent bonuses have already handled), so where, if anywhere, does it fit? The definitely fits, it's the same concepts as Boons in the DMG2  and with all characters having seemingly supernatural powers regardless of their powersource I think it fits in with the overall 4e gameplay.