Marauders - is it as bad as I've heard? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Marauders - is it as bad as I've heard?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
billman
Sep 17, 2010 8:38:48 The reviews I've read about the Marauders module are almost universally horrible: dumb adventure hooks (requiring the PCs to be literate, which is highly unlikely on Athas), stupid plot development (thri kreen allying with elves, who are actually their food), depictions of cattle and oxen on the map (creatures that don't exist on Athas), etc.

Is it really this pathetic?
#2
Nyarlathotep
Sep 17, 2010 8:57:50 Yes, but not for the reasons you describe. The stupid plot hook isn't the only plot hook presented and the deviations from old canon are not unforgivable sins in my eyes, as I think of this verion of DS as a 'franchise reboot' more than a continuation of the old setting, and that always allows for changes. Even the oxen on the map thing is as easily handwaved by me in the same way as when I put out a group of orc minis as foes and explain to the group that they're not really orcs, they're [something I don't have a suitable mini for].

No, the pathetic part of the adventure, IMO, is that it is a completely generic dungeon crawl that, except for a bit of window dressing here and there, doesn't well reflect the setting at all. THAT is where they really fell down with it. Plus its not even that good as a dungeon crawl. It's just a disjointed set of encounters with little more than a hallway and a paper thin plot linking them. Even if they had put this adventure out as a 'regular' Non-DS adventure, it would have been 'meh' at best.
#3
FlashbackJon
Sep 17, 2010 9:44:55 Two good threads that fell off the first page:
Marauders - Disappointing?
Fixing Marauders
#4
baronspam
Sep 18, 2010 12:26:33 I read through it recently. Its 4/10 at best.

Yes, one of the possible plot hooks is that the PCs get a letter offering them a job. I think too much has been made of this. The DSCG goes on about how many people in Athas can not read, but then for no clear reason states that all pcs are assumed to be literate, even if they are a thi-kreen raised in a brick bunker in the middle of deep ass nowhere. The whole literacy things doesn't really make sense. In a pre-modern societies it is not uncommon for only specialists who needed literacy skills for their work to be literate. So I don't see why the DSCG goes on at such lenghts about the SKs surpressing literacy. I never really picked that up in the DS fiction. Then it says that all the pcs can read, even when their background says that they really should not be able to. I digress. The point being, one could easily change the letter thing to a messenger, and its not big deal.

The whole problem with marauders is that it is bland. It is some random wilderness encounters, followed by a dungeon, followed by a skill challenge, all to get a somewhat uninteresting magical McGuffin. It really feels like it is just going through the motions. Not much story, not much cool. You could likely recycle the encounters for other purposes, but on the whole its forgetable. Not bad just not memorable, nor does it really do what it could with the setting. My advice would be to take the encounters, since they have nicely statted them out for you using DS flavored monsters, and write a better plot and surrouding material.

Edit: One thing that many people got hysterical about was that fact that there is a small stream in one of the dungeon caves. Athas is a desert, but not water free. Unless a location is filled entirely with undead, elementals, and mechanical traps, there has to be water for there to be life. There were some kind of humanoid baddies (forget the exact name) who had their lair there. If there was no water, it would just be a room with some very dry skeletons in it. Just a pet peeve. Venting over.
#5
Alphastream
Sep 19, 2010 0:32:12 I just don't understand, try as I might, how really smart people at WotC put out lame generic adventures. The adventures WotC puts out should be just mind-blowingly awesome lessons in encounter design, story and setting, plot development, role-playing hooks, cool NPCs and locations, awesome skill challenges...

Their 4E track record is brutal. It is as if inside WotC they have not advanced from AD&D days (if not actually stepped back) while the rest of the world has moved a few light years ahead. I just can't comprehend.

However, when I look at a lot of the gameday type stuff, it is surprisingly good. Chris Tulach's D&DXP adventure was really a very fine setting-rich and fun adventure at the time of Kalak's death. Bloodsand Arena is also a solid adventure. The Arena events at Gen Con and PAX are awesome recreations/interpretations of the material in the Gladiator's Handbook and have some really brilliantly wicked challenges and are excellent for gladiatorial combat. The often maligned D&D Encounters program, while having some issues, does explore the setting well with many iconic aspects - and it is a tremendously excellent framework upon which to add much more and make it a truly memorable adventure.

I really think WotC (who I respect and admire on many fronts) repeatedly misses opportunities on their product adventures (with a few exceptions, such as Tomb of Horrors).
#6
dreamernaut
Sep 19, 2010 2:49:21
I read through it recently. Its 4/10 at best.

Yes, one of the possible plot hooks is that the PCs get a letter offering them a job. I think too much has been made of this. The DSCG goes on about how many people in Athas can not read, but then for no clear reason states that all pcs are assumed to be literate, even if they are a thi-kreen raised in a brick bunker in the middle of deep ass nowhere. The whole literacy things doesn't really make sense. In a pre-modern societies it is not uncommon for only specialists who needed literacy skills for their work to be literate. So I don't see why the DSCG goes on at such lenghts about the SKs surpressing literacy. I never really picked that up in the DS fiction. Then it says that all the pcs can read, even when their background says that they really should not be able to. I digress. The point being, one could easily change the letter thing to a messenger, and its not big deal.

For me I see the PC's being literate by default is just a conceit by the developers to the fact that any kind of mechanic that would provide literacy to the PCs would be beyond the scope of the 4th ed rules set. Personally I would want the players to come up with something that would explain their PC's literacy in it's background or be considered illiterate, but at the same time it's just a few lines of fluff that has no real bearing on the quality of game play.

The whole problem with marauders is that it is bland. It is some random wilderness encounters, followed by a dungeon, followed by a skill challenge, all to get a somewhat uninteresting magical McGuffin. It really feels like it is just going through the motions. Not much story, not much cool. You could likely recycle the encounters for other purposes, but on the whole its forgetable. Not bad just not memorable, nor does it really do what it could with the setting. My advice would be to take the encounters, since they have nicely statted them out for you using DS flavored monsters, and write a better plot and surrouding material.

Another issue that's been tossed around quite a bit is the amount of gold and treasure to be found is out of place for the setting. There's a lot of treasure in Marauders that just seems innapropriate for a low magic setting with a harsh survival theme.

Edit: One thing that many people got hysterical about was that fact that there is a small stream in one of the dungeon caves. Athas is a desert, but not water free. Unless a location is filled entirely with undead, elementals, and mechanical traps, there has to be water for there to be life. There were some kind of humanoid baddies (forget the exact name) who had their lair there. If there was no water, it would just be a room with some very dry skeletons in it. Just a pet peeve. Venting over.

I understand and agree with your reasoning that it's only reasonable to have a source of water, but I think that many see this as loot that just adds to the liberal amount of booty provided in the adventure. Realistically I think there's very little room for a party to take to much advantage of an underground stream so it's likely not that big of issue outside of the potential for the party derailing a campaign in favor of becoming water merchants.

#7
eric_anondson
Sep 19, 2010 15:09:20
Their 4E track record is brutal. It is as if inside WotC they have not advanced from AD&D days (if not actually stepped back) while the rest of the world has moved a few light years ahead. I just can't comprehend.

I've come to the same conclusion. My (maybe irrational) quick take is to look at the name of the author, if I've recognized them from the AD&D years or early 3.x years then I have little faith the adventure will be of high quality. The newer the name, the greater faith I have it will work out well.

Bruce's AD&D adventures are top shelf, but this . . . reputation scarring.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 billman Sep 17, 2010 8:38:48	The reviews I've read about the Marauders module are almost universally horrible: dumb adventure hooks (requiring the PCs to be literate, which is highly unlikely on Athas), stupid plot development (thri kreen allying with elves, who are actually their food), depictions of cattle and oxen on the map (creatures that don't exist on Athas), etc. Is it really this pathetic?
#2 Nyarlathotep Sep 17, 2010 8:57:50	Yes, but not for the reasons you describe. The stupid plot hook isn't the only plot hook presented and the deviations from old canon are not unforgivable sins in my eyes, as I think of this verion of DS as a 'franchise reboot' more than a continuation of the old setting, and that always allows for changes. Even the oxen on the map thing is as easily handwaved by me in the same way as when I put out a group of orc minis as foes and explain to the group that they're not really orcs, they're [something I don't have a suitable mini for]. No, the pathetic part of the adventure, IMO, is that it is a completely generic dungeon crawl that, except for a bit of window dressing here and there, doesn't well reflect the setting at all. THAT is where they really fell down with it. Plus its not even that good as a dungeon crawl. It's just a disjointed set of encounters with little more than a hallway and a paper thin plot linking them. Even if they had put this adventure out as a 'regular' Non-DS adventure, it would have been 'meh' at best.
#3 FlashbackJon Sep 17, 2010 9:44:55	Two good threads that fell off the first page: Marauders - Disappointing? Fixing Marauders
#4 baronspam Sep 18, 2010 12:26:33	I read through it recently. Its 4/10 at best. Yes, one of the possible plot hooks is that the PCs get a letter offering them a job. I think too much has been made of this. The DSCG goes on about how many people in Athas can not read, but then for no clear reason states that all pcs are assumed to be literate, even if they are a thi-kreen raised in a brick bunker in the middle of deep ass nowhere. The whole literacy things doesn't really make sense. In a pre-modern societies it is not uncommon for only specialists who needed literacy skills for their work to be literate. So I don't see why the DSCG goes on at such lenghts about the SKs surpressing literacy. I never really picked that up in the DS fiction. Then it says that all the pcs can read, even when their background says that they really should not be able to. I digress. The point being, one could easily change the letter thing to a messenger, and its not big deal. The whole problem with marauders is that it is bland. It is some random wilderness encounters, followed by a dungeon, followed by a skill challenge, all to get a somewhat uninteresting magical McGuffin. It really feels like it is just going through the motions. Not much story, not much cool. You could likely recycle the encounters for other purposes, but on the whole its forgetable. Not bad just not memorable, nor does it really do what it could with the setting. My advice would be to take the encounters, since they have nicely statted them out for you using DS flavored monsters, and write a better plot and surrouding material. Edit: One thing that many people got hysterical about was that fact that there is a small stream in one of the dungeon caves. Athas is a desert, but not water free. Unless a location is filled entirely with undead, elementals, and mechanical traps, there has to be water for there to be life. There were some kind of humanoid baddies (forget the exact name) who had their lair there. If there was no water, it would just be a room with some very dry skeletons in it. Just a pet peeve. Venting over.
#5 Alphastream Sep 19, 2010 0:32:12	I just don't understand, try as I might, how really smart people at WotC put out lame generic adventures. The adventures WotC puts out should be just mind-blowingly awesome lessons in encounter design, story and setting, plot development, role-playing hooks, cool NPCs and locations, awesome skill challenges... Their 4E track record is brutal. It is as if inside WotC they have not advanced from AD&D days (if not actually stepped back) while the rest of the world has moved a few light years ahead. I just can't comprehend. However, when I look at a lot of the gameday type stuff, it is surprisingly good. Chris Tulach's D&DXP adventure was really a very fine setting-rich and fun adventure at the time of Kalak's death. Bloodsand Arena is also a solid adventure. The Arena events at Gen Con and PAX are awesome recreations/interpretations of the material in the Gladiator's Handbook and have some really brilliantly wicked challenges and are excellent for gladiatorial combat. The often maligned D&D Encounters program, while having some issues, does explore the setting well with many iconic aspects - and it is a tremendously excellent framework upon which to add much more and make it a truly memorable adventure. I really think WotC (who I respect and admire on many fronts) repeatedly misses opportunities on their product adventures (with a few exceptions, such as Tomb of Horrors).
#6 dreamernaut Sep 19, 2010 2:49:21	I read through it recently. Its 4/10 at best. Yes, one of the possible plot hooks is that the PCs get a letter offering them a job. I think too much has been made of this. The DSCG goes on about how many people in Athas can not read, but then for no clear reason states that all pcs are assumed to be literate, even if they are a thi-kreen raised in a brick bunker in the middle of deep ass nowhere. The whole literacy things doesn't really make sense. In a pre-modern societies it is not uncommon for only specialists who needed literacy skills for their work to be literate. So I don't see why the DSCG goes on at such lenghts about the SKs surpressing literacy. I never really picked that up in the DS fiction. Then it says that all the pcs can read, even when their background says that they really should not be able to. I digress. The point being, one could easily change the letter thing to a messenger, and its not big deal. For me I see the PC's being literate by default is just a conceit by the developers to the fact that any kind of mechanic that would provide literacy to the PCs would be beyond the scope of the 4th ed rules set. Personally I would want the players to come up with something that would explain their PC's literacy in it's background or be considered illiterate, but at the same time it's just a few lines of fluff that has no real bearing on the quality of game play. The whole problem with marauders is that it is bland. It is some random wilderness encounters, followed by a dungeon, followed by a skill challenge, all to get a somewhat uninteresting magical McGuffin. It really feels like it is just going through the motions. Not much story, not much cool. You could likely recycle the encounters for other purposes, but on the whole its forgetable. Not bad just not memorable, nor does it really do what it could with the setting. My advice would be to take the encounters, since they have nicely statted them out for you using DS flavored monsters, and write a better plot and surrouding material. Another issue that's been tossed around quite a bit is the amount of gold and treasure to be found is out of place for the setting. There's a lot of treasure in Marauders that just seems innapropriate for a low magic setting with a harsh survival theme. Edit: One thing that many people got hysterical about was that fact that there is a small stream in one of the dungeon caves. Athas is a desert, but not water free. Unless a location is filled entirely with undead, elementals, and mechanical traps, there has to be water for there to be life. There were some kind of humanoid baddies (forget the exact name) who had their lair there. If there was no water, it would just be a room with some very dry skeletons in it. Just a pet peeve. Venting over. I understand and agree with your reasoning that it's only reasonable to have a source of water, but I think that many see this as loot that just adds to the liberal amount of booty provided in the adventure. Realistically I think there's very little room for a party to take to much advantage of an underground stream so it's likely not that big of issue outside of the potential for the party derailing a campaign in favor of becoming water merchants.
#7 eric_anondson Sep 19, 2010 15:09:20	Their 4E track record is brutal. It is as if inside WotC they have not advanced from AD&D days (if not actually stepped back) while the rest of the world has moved a few light years ahead. I just can't comprehend. I've come to the same conclusion. My (maybe irrational) quick take is to look at the name of the author, if I've recognized them from the AD&D years or early 3.x years then I have little faith the adventure will be of high quality. The newer the name, the greater faith I have it will work out well. Bruce's AD&D adventures are top shelf, but this . . . reputation scarring.