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Mixing up Travel

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Bly2729
Nov 13, 2010 7:35:11 As the title might suggest, I worry about PCs getting bored with travel. It might be "real" to go through the same struggle/skill challenge every time you go down the street to the chemist but doesn't that get dull? I guess I've always had a rough relationship with Travel Skill Challenges because I see failure as 1) Irrelevant since it rarely changes the destination of the adventure you've painstakingly written and 2) Boring since its an invitation to an extended rest if the penalty is healing surges. Maybe one time you have to negotiate your passage aboard an argosy or work as a deckhand on a silt skimmer. Okay that's 2 new ideas, both skill challenges. What else do people do to mark the brutality of travel in Athas without resorting to the ole' "Endurance, Perception, Nature, and Stealth."

(The Rest is something of a rant so ignore if you're only here for the first question.)
And what do you do if your PCs show up with crappy un-Athasized skills? Beat them into the ground? I know, standard EL for Dark Sun games is "Hard" but I have to sell them on the campaign setting before I crush them. Give them savage beauty before its just savage. Do I rename the campaign setting "Hope Someone Has Endurance?" Endurance has always been the bastard stepchild of 4E skills, it gets broken out only during Travel and Disease, and if no one has it, are you really going to slap them around with that many diseases? How many times do you ever really use disease rules? If someone gets a disease, the party just waits until they're cured or dead before doing anything strenuous.

A friend sent me Dungeon 181 so I could run Vault of Darom Madar for our group. Haven't we advanced beyond the point of having a skill challenge with 2 relevant skills in 4th Edition? Thievery is probably the rarest skill in 4E, and its Athas so arcanists are also rare. This isn't essentials, there's no guarantee you have a Rogue and a Wizard to open the vault door. You've got your Arcana/Thievery door unlocking, Endurance and Athletics travel, Charisma and History negotiations. What's the most innovative skill challenge you've ever encountered?
#2
tentagil
Nov 13, 2010 13:20:06 A DM I game with, and who I'm stealing ideas from, runs skill challenges by giving a basic idea of the situation and then, going clockwise around the tabel, has each player pick a skill and RP what they are going to do. Literally any skill can be used, and he gives bonuses for a well roleplayed choice. We keep going around, sometimes getting bonuses from other players actions, until we either succeed or fail. And of course failure always pushes the plot forward jsut as much, jsut not as nice for us.

We did one where the party was essentially trapped in an inn full of other adventureres. The city guard were camped outside waiting to arrest us, and several groups of villians were hidden around the area waiting to ambush and kill us. We ended up sending a few other adventures out as a distraction, talked the guard into actually protecting us for a while, and even knocked out a few of the villians all through RP and dice rolls before we even got into any encounters.

I think people get to hung up on the mechanics sometimes. I personally ignore the recommend skill list for skill challenges and jsut see what my players come up with. Makes it more dynamic and interesting I think. More creativity, and if you don't have a classically balanced party it still allows the party to keep moving.
#3
Bera
Nov 13, 2010 16:13:10 Its also up to the DM to define "failure" in a way that interacts with the plot of the game. I mean, you could slap a healing surge or survival day penalty on the PCs, though its not the most imaginative. Making the next encounter difficult or giving story consequences for failing the check (the enemy is prepared for your arrival, you didn't arrive in time to stop the enemy from destroying the town, etc.) might be better. It could affect the PCs' rewards (Not enough time left to get that grandmaster training or impress the council). Depending on the destination, you could run the adventure you designed for them with a twist, such as they're not actually fighting the right defiler or have plundered the wrong tomb.

Depending on whether or not PCs are traveling on their own or with a caravan, a variety of skills could be useful. History (or Arcana?) to recognize landmarks, Dungeoneering to suss out the ancient bridge, Insight to bypass the Gith tribe in the area... Travel checks might not always be about survival, and the consequences of failure need not be getting lost.
#4
DontEatRawHagis
Nov 13, 2010 19:03:45 Not sure if these are in the DS:CS but when I did the WasteWalker they had setbacks(with DC checks) like extreme heat Endurance (Healing Surge loss), Mirages Perception ( Penalty to defenses), Silt Storm Endurance (enemies have concealment), and Treacherous Terrain Acrobatics (minus to speed).

I agree with losing Survival Days for getting lost, its can basically be just walking in circles. Maybe also add in some obstacles that they might have avoided if they didn't get lost, such as a large patch chokedust. They can either take the long way around, losing survival days or take a chance of going through the terrain. Mirages could be used to pull players off the path and into an ambush, instead of losing days they gain a chance to fight. Or maybe a templar group is patroling the road and are charging travelers coin for "Protection".

As far as skill challenges go I got really good runs with people using diplomacy with NPCs. They would say what they want to do, such as yell at the person and I would ask them to roll the necessary skill. Convert it to travel, "I want to look for animal tracks that might help us get through the mountain terrain" I'd say "roll a nature check'. I want to try and divine the position we need to head okay roll arcane. So on and so forth. They come up with an idea and you find the right skill to use.
#5
lord_rock
Nov 13, 2010 20:32:31 Sky is the limit. Failed skills challenge = loss of surges, survival days, tough encounters down a lot of surges, and threats of sun sickness, adventures with time lines are in trouble, extra encounters, extra threats like sand/silt storms or encounters with beasts obviously above thier level (and a skills challenge to get out of it).

I too do the round table style skills challenges... let your players do all the hard work and say "ok" a lot and let them fail. Failure doesn't always mean death but the threat of death in darksun should be present. "dying" in darksun only to find the party captured and enslaved by a gith or elf tribe gives the "dead" feel and allows your players to "play out of it".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Bly2729 Nov 13, 2010 7:35:11	As the title might suggest, I worry about PCs getting bored with travel. It might be "real" to go through the same struggle/skill challenge every time you go down the street to the chemist but doesn't that get dull? I guess I've always had a rough relationship with Travel Skill Challenges because I see failure as 1) Irrelevant since it rarely changes the destination of the adventure you've painstakingly written and 2) Boring since its an invitation to an extended rest if the penalty is healing surges. Maybe one time you have to negotiate your passage aboard an argosy or work as a deckhand on a silt skimmer. Okay that's 2 new ideas, both skill challenges. What else do people do to mark the brutality of travel in Athas without resorting to the ole' "Endurance, Perception, Nature, and Stealth." (The Rest is something of a rant so ignore if you're only here for the first question.) And what do you do if your PCs show up with crappy un-Athasized skills? Beat them into the ground? I know, standard EL for Dark Sun games is "Hard" but I have to sell them on the campaign setting before I crush them. Give them savage beauty before its just savage. Do I rename the campaign setting "Hope Someone Has Endurance?" Endurance has always been the bastard stepchild of 4E skills, it gets broken out only during Travel and Disease, and if no one has it, are you really going to slap them around with that many diseases? How many times do you ever really use disease rules? If someone gets a disease, the party just waits until they're cured or dead before doing anything strenuous. A friend sent me Dungeon 181 so I could run Vault of Darom Madar for our group. Haven't we advanced beyond the point of having a skill challenge with 2 relevant skills in 4th Edition? Thievery is probably the rarest skill in 4E, and its Athas so arcanists are also rare. This isn't essentials, there's no guarantee you have a Rogue and a Wizard to open the vault door. You've got your Arcana/Thievery door unlocking, Endurance and Athletics travel, Charisma and History negotiations. What's the most innovative skill challenge you've ever encountered?
#2 tentagil Nov 13, 2010 13:20:06	A DM I game with, and who I'm stealing ideas from, runs skill challenges by giving a basic idea of the situation and then, going clockwise around the tabel, has each player pick a skill and RP what they are going to do. Literally any skill can be used, and he gives bonuses for a well roleplayed choice. We keep going around, sometimes getting bonuses from other players actions, until we either succeed or fail. And of course failure always pushes the plot forward jsut as much, jsut not as nice for us. We did one where the party was essentially trapped in an inn full of other adventureres. The city guard were camped outside waiting to arrest us, and several groups of villians were hidden around the area waiting to ambush and kill us. We ended up sending a few other adventures out as a distraction, talked the guard into actually protecting us for a while, and even knocked out a few of the villians all through RP and dice rolls before we even got into any encounters. I think people get to hung up on the mechanics sometimes. I personally ignore the recommend skill list for skill challenges and jsut see what my players come up with. Makes it more dynamic and interesting I think. More creativity, and if you don't have a classically balanced party it still allows the party to keep moving.
#3 Bera Nov 13, 2010 16:13:10	Its also up to the DM to define "failure" in a way that interacts with the plot of the game. I mean, you could slap a healing surge or survival day penalty on the PCs, though its not the most imaginative. Making the next encounter difficult or giving story consequences for failing the check (the enemy is prepared for your arrival, you didn't arrive in time to stop the enemy from destroying the town, etc.) might be better. It could affect the PCs' rewards (Not enough time left to get that grandmaster training or impress the council). Depending on the destination, you could run the adventure you designed for them with a twist, such as they're not actually fighting the right defiler or have plundered the wrong tomb. Depending on whether or not PCs are traveling on their own or with a caravan, a variety of skills could be useful. History (or Arcana?) to recognize landmarks, Dungeoneering to suss out the ancient bridge, Insight to bypass the Gith tribe in the area... Travel checks might not always be about survival, and the consequences of failure need not be getting lost.
#4 DontEatRawHagis Nov 13, 2010 19:03:45	Not sure if these are in the DS:CS but when I did the WasteWalker they had setbacks(with DC checks) like extreme heat Endurance (Healing Surge loss), Mirages Perception ( Penalty to defenses), Silt Storm Endurance (enemies have concealment), and Treacherous Terrain Acrobatics (minus to speed). I agree with losing Survival Days for getting lost, its can basically be just walking in circles. Maybe also add in some obstacles that they might have avoided if they didn't get lost, such as a large patch chokedust. They can either take the long way around, losing survival days or take a chance of going through the terrain. Mirages could be used to pull players off the path and into an ambush, instead of losing days they gain a chance to fight. Or maybe a templar group is patroling the road and are charging travelers coin for "Protection". As far as skill challenges go I got really good runs with people using diplomacy with NPCs. They would say what they want to do, such as yell at the person and I would ask them to roll the necessary skill. Convert it to travel, "I want to look for animal tracks that might help us get through the mountain terrain" I'd say "roll a nature check'. I want to try and divine the position we need to head okay roll arcane. So on and so forth. They come up with an idea and you find the right skill to use.
#5 lord_rock Nov 13, 2010 20:32:31	Sky is the limit. Failed skills challenge = loss of surges, survival days, tough encounters down a lot of surges, and threats of sun sickness, adventures with time lines are in trouble, extra encounters, extra threats like sand/silt storms or encounters with beasts obviously above thier level (and a skills challenge to get out of it). I too do the round table style skills challenges... let your players do all the hard work and say "ok" a lot and let them fail. Failure doesn't always mean death but the threat of death in darksun should be present. "dying" in darksun only to find the party captured and enslaved by a gith or elf tribe gives the "dead" feel and allows your players to "play out of it".