Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Acrilos Sep 24, 2010 13:42:00	Muls are really nicely done in Dark Sun 4th edition. I especially like their racial encounter power which proves how they are resilient. I have a question, though, raised during a game session a few days ago. If, for example, a Mul is afflicted by the following condition : taking ongoing 5 poison damage and a getting a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends both). Does removing the ongoing damage with incredible toughness also removes the penalty to attack rolls since the effects are linked or does that leave the Mul with the -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends)?
#2 Duke5150 Sep 24, 2010 14:26:44	Incredible Toughness doesn't "save" against a condition. It ends it. (language difference) The ongoing damage ends but the penalty remains until saved. For example. Target is slowed and blinded (save ends both) Incredible toughness kicks in. The slowed condition ends, the blinded condition continues until saved.
#3 cmdluke Sep 24, 2010 14:31:21	If you are afflicted by 1 effect that caused ongoing damage and a penalty to saves, wouldn't it end both because they are a single condition from a single effect?
#4 Nyarlathotep Sep 24, 2010 14:34:15	If you are afflicted by 1 effect that caused ongoing damage and a penalty to saves, wouldn't it end both because they are a single condition from a single effect? That's how I am interpreting it.  The power says it ends the effect not the condition (IIRC).
#5 tavitin Sep 24, 2010 15:02:33	RAW: Duke is right RAI: Nyarlathotep is right Answer: talk with DM and fellow players to reach a conclusion
#6 Duke5150 Sep 24, 2010 20:46:40	If you are afflicted by 1 effect that caused ongoing damage and a penalty to saves, wouldn't it end both because they are a single condition from a single effect? No, because incredibly toughness only ends ongoing damage or dazed, slowed, stunned or weakened. Also, when something applies more than one affliction (condition/penalty/mark/so on) on a single action, it is still separate afflictions, not a single condition. So dealing ongoing damage and dazed is two conditions, not one. You'd have to pick one. For example. Target is dazed and weakened (save ends both) Incredibly toughness kicks in, the player chooses one condition to end. The chosen condition ends, the other condition remains. A save, ends both effects. Ending one effect doesn't end the other when using incredibly toughness because the condition isn't being saved against. To look at it another way, incredibly toughness cannot end effects not listed in the power. So penalties and conditions not found on the power's effect line cannot end due to this racial power.
#7 Duke5150 Sep 24, 2010 20:49:36	If you are afflicted by 1 effect that caused ongoing damage and a penalty to saves, wouldn't it end both because they are a single condition from a single effect? That's how I am interpreting it.  The power says it ends the effect not the condition (IIRC).  It says condition.
#8 Nyarlathotep Sep 25, 2010 3:08:52	If you are afflicted by 1 effect that caused ongoing damage and a penalty to saves, wouldn't it end both because they are a single condition from a single effect? That's how I am interpreting it.  The power says it ends the effect not the condition (IIRC).  It says condition. Yep.  I had a chance to look at it tonight and you are 100% right.  My bad.
#9 alsoanima Sep 25, 2010 10:15:43	The intent of having (save ends both) is so that variable effects exist in the game that go beyond the standard array, and portray how the power effected the player. Therefore I'm ruling on the side of it ending both effects. By the way, go into Law. There is now such thing as Rules as Written, the english language is simply too flexible for it.
#10 Duke5150 Sep 25, 2010 16:04:33	The intent of having (save ends both) is so that variable effects exist in the game that go beyond the standard array, and portray how the power effected the player. Therefore I'm ruling on the side of it ending both effects. A (save ends both) condition requires a save to end both conditions(the power itself). If you end a condition without a save, you're not saving against the condition, you are ending it. Incredible toughness does not save against the conditions it ends, which is the key. It ends one condition found on the power's effect line. The power doesn't provide a save. Anything that keys off of a save doesn't trigger using incredible toughness. The language is very clear. There is nothing wrong with you ruling that it ends both conditions, although it's a houserule.  There is now such thing as Rules as Written, the english language is simply too flexible for it. This makes no sense. The game does indeed have rules as written which are used to referee the game in a fair and clear way. You can search for loopholes, but that won't matter if the GM knows the rules. Saying there is no such thing as RAW, makes me think you don't know what you're talking about, or wonder if you've ever even played the game. I'd suggest anyone who thinks I'm incorrect in my understanding of this to contact customer support to find out the official ruling. I doubt I'm incorrect, but I'm only human. Although the power's language is very clear, as is ending a condition via a save versus ending a condition without a save. Or you can go over to the Rules Q&A, where many of the experts on 4e mechanics can answer this question.
#11 thrael Sep 25, 2010 18:17:07	I'd suggest anyone who thinks I'm incorrect in my understanding of this to contact customer support to find out the official ruling. I doubt I'm incorrect, but I'm only human. Although the power's language is very clear, as is ending a condition via a save versus ending a condition without a save. I just wanted to point out that the DSCC Mul version of Incredible Toughness is ending one effect that includes the ongoing damage, slowed, stunned, dazed or weakened condition. So it would indeed end effects which combine multiple conditions. Which kind of makes sense because most effects get some flavor text to go along with them and it would often break immersion if only part of it was negated.
#12 chaosfang Sep 25, 2010 18:26:12	EDIT: Nevermind, if it says it ends effects that *include* whatever stuff it can end, then even (save ends both) stuff would have both effects nullified by Incredible Toughness.
#13 Mock Sep 25, 2010 18:43:17	EDIT: Nevermind, if it says it ends effects that *include* whatever stuff it can end, then even (save ends both) stuff would have both effects nullified by Incredible Toughness. It doesn't have the word include in it anywhere - the text just says: You end any ongoing damage or any dazed, slowed, stunned, or weakened condition currently affecting you.
#14 theamnesiac Sep 26, 2010 4:37:03	I'd rule as it getting rid of both, personally. I am of the opinion that X+Y save ends both effects are intended to end together, so getting rid of one gets rid of the other. Directly addressing every possible variation in the description of Incredible Toughness would take too much room.
#15 thrael Sep 26, 2010 5:03:53	It doesn't have the word include in it anywhere In the DSCC (Creature Catalog) it does. We'll see which version will prevail. Both have their merits and repercussions. As by the DSCS (Campaign Setting), you can end the slowed condition resulting from the Animist Shaman's Mountain's Might (making it quite the melee buff), and there are probably other beneficial powers which make you slowed, dazed or even stunned in return. One could also end the slowed condition when lifting or dragging weight... now that's to make the toughness incredible ;) Mul caravans: they need sleep every 3rd day and can drag 1000 lb. (assuming Str 20) at full speed, more than any mount: 4x the carrying capacity of even the mekillot which likely consumes more per day too, being Huge. And they still waste Muls as guards and laborers...
#16 dwaastoo Sep 26, 2010 5:09:07	I think it's simple if you know WHY he takes the -2 on attack roles, are the conditions connected. Is it because off the poison then it ends both. If they are both seperate effects from one source, then it won't end both... I compare it with a car-accident If I am in an accident and I break my arm and leg... fixing my arm won't fix my leg ( two seperate conditions from a single effect?) If I am in a car accident and I break my hip joint and that bleeds a lot then fixing the hip joint will end both the bleeding and the problems with my leg. ( two connected conditions from a single effect?) (English is not my primary language, so I hope I make myself clear)...
#17 Serow_Darkstar Sep 26, 2010 8:41:34	I think it's simple if you know WHY he takes the -2 on attack roles, are the conditions connected. Is it because off the poison then it ends both. If they are both seperate effects from one source, then it won't end both... I compare it with a car-accident If I am in an accident and I break my arm and leg... fixing my arm won't fix my leg ( two seperate conditions from a single effect?) If I am in a car accident and I break my hip joint and that bleeds a lot then fixing the hip joint will end both the bleeding and the problems with my leg. ( two connected conditions from a single effect?) (English is not my primary language, so I hope I make myself clear)...
#18 theplaneswalker Sep 26, 2010 10:59:45	The issue is that its not saying that it ends any condition that a save can end nor does it say that it ends every condition that is listed in the power, so in order for the power to be able to remove both it would need to be worded as such. The character is affected by two conditions that end with one save, if the power allowed to make a save, you would be able to remove them both, but it doesnt, so you can only remove one condition. of course it is always up to the DM to decide, but i believe the power is very clear. =) Edit: And remember that the Muls in the creature catalog are monsters and as such dont need to follow the exact same rules as a player race so until the power gets errata id suggest going by what the DSCS states.
#19 Acrilos Sep 29, 2010 6:15:41	Thank you all for the answers. So only one condition ends even if the Mul is affected by an effect that has two linked conditions (save ends both). This is indeed what the power "says" when we read it. I should not have tried to interpret it differently. Sometimes we complicate things that are quite simple, especially when properly interpreted. Thanks again.
#20 Nyarlathotep Sep 29, 2010 9:10:17	Mul caravans: they need sleep every 3rd day and can drag 1000 lb. (assuming Str 20) at full speed, more than any mount: 4x the carrying capacity of even the mekillot which likely consumes more per day too, being Huge. And they still waste Muls as guards and laborers... With Incredible Toughness being an encounter power and the fact that the slowed condition would return the next round after they shrugged it off if they still were dragging the weight, they could only achieve full speed for about six seconds of every five minutes or so.  I doubt this would make an appreciable difference in speed. Though now that you mention it, if they were in an emergency (like a fire) and needed to drag something heavy (like a large person) a short distance, that short burst of speed could be useful.  Muls would make awesome firefighters.
#21 thrael Sep 29, 2010 14:08:16	With Incredible Toughness being an encounter power and the fact that the slowed condition would return the next round after they shrugged it off... What makes you think that conditions once removed would return? I certainly don't see that, it isn't "ignore the effect of ... until end of next turn/end of the encounter". You are slowed by dragging stuff. You are no longer slowed. You keep dragging stuff. It's no different than removing slowed from the Animist Shaman's Mountain's Might power. You stay not slowed. One can use encounter powers outside of encounters and they are expended until after a short rest. But their result lingers. Do you rollback every long-lasting result of an encounter power? Ask the Bard who used his Diplomacy bonus or anyone with utility powers which target skill checks.
#22 Pennarin Sep 29, 2010 17:06:57	You end any ongoing damage or any dazed, slowed, stunned, or weakened condition currently affecting you. The quote says "or"...thus, either ongoing damage, or dazed, or slowed, or stunned, or weakened. For it to be good English, though, they should have said... You end any ongoing damage or any one dazed, slowed, stunned, or weakened condition currently affecting you. ...or, if the choice is between all ongoing damage and all of the following conditions... You end any ongoing damage or any dazed, slowed, stunned, or weakened conditions currently affecting you. Something like that, anyway.
#23 tavitin Sep 30, 2010 12:12:00	And the RAI versus RAW war struggles on! C'mon guys. Its been more than 3 years of 4e and it seems that people *still* fail in discussions such as these. RAW: it only ends one effect of an ongoing multiple debuffs, because whats linking the debuffs is a save, which the Mul's Racial Encounter doesn't grant. This interpretation doesn't validate logic, intent or reason, only whats WRITTEN. RAI: logically a poison that grants SLOW and ONGOING DMG isn't different poisons mixed, its A poison (a single substance that kills you slowly and hampers your movement), so ending the effect of that substance will surely end the whole damn thing, because you're shrugging it off. This interpretation do validate logic, intent and reason. As much as this use of the racial wasn't the Intent of the designers (we can't be sure what the intent truly was afterall), logic and reason prevail. Both are right answers, choose what makes your gaming group happier.