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| #1sekerAug 20, 2010 7:07:37 | After seeing all the discussions on here and looking over the various rules from the book, I thought I would list the house rules I am planning to use and see what people think. 1. Arcane powers from the Templar theme cannot be used to defile. (The power is granted directly from the SK, as per the previous fluff. This also means that upon the death of a SK the arcane powers from this theme no longer work until the character links to another SK.) 2. Any other arcane power can defile at the choice of the character. At-will, utility, and encounter powers defile an area of close 1. Daily powers defile an area of close 1/2 level of power. (Minimum 1.) 3. Any character with an arcane daily power gains the Arcane Defiling feature. Arcane Defiling: Arcane Feature At-Will * Arcane, Necrotic Free Action Personal Trigger: You make an attack roll or a damage roll as part of an arcane daily attack power. Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll but must use the second result. The spell defiles an area of close (level of the triggering power). In addition, each living creature (ally or enemy) within the area being defiled takes necrotic damage equal half his or her healing surge value. This damage ignores immunities and cannot be reduced in any way. Special: You can use this effect once for any arcane daily attack power you use, affecting any single attack roll or the damage roll for that power. Note, as minions have a healing surge value of 0, they take no damage from this effect. 4. Use of the Arcane Defiling feature can cause Defiling Addiction. Defiling Addiction Attack: level of spell vs. Will (Occurs when a character uses Arcane Defiling feature) |
| #2DMapleAug 20, 2010 7:37:44 | After seeing all the discussions on here and looking over the various rules from the book, I thought I would list the house rules I am planning to use and see what people think. Don't like this one, after all aren't the SK's all defilers? This tying the power directly to them makes them effectively gods. If anything I would require it to defile. Under the Warlock Sorcerer-King Pact (page 94) it says "the sorcerer king has no special ability to observe you or to strip you of your power" so once the King has given some of his power out, he can't go taking it back. Hence they are kind of particular to who they give it to. While they teach you how to do it, I can't see these selfish creatures given more of their own personal power every time you use an ability when they can just as easily have it draw power from the land. 2. Any other arcane power can defile at the choice of the character. At-will, utility, and encounter powers defile an area of close 1. Daily powers defile an area of close 1/2 level of power. (Minimum 1.) These don't seem to be house rules aren't these just like the book? In addition, each living creature (ally or enemy) within the area being defiled takes necrotic damage equal half his or her healing surge value. Free additional offensive capability with no attack roll need, no save, no resistances seems a little strong even if it is minor damage. I wonder how that will effect the balance of encounters? Note, as minions have a healing surge value of 0, they take no damage from this effect. I like this little reminder. 4. Use of the Arcane Defiling feature can cause Defiling Addiction. I'll have to get back to you on Defiling Addiction not had a chance to look at it, but I think allowing Defiling to be offensive for free is addicting enough. |
| #3visanidethdmAug 20, 2010 8:09:41 | Honestly, this solution combines the worst of 2 worlds. On one hand, you exasperate the issue of making the arcane power source better than it should be at no personal cost. There's no possible logical reason for having a power source be better than the others; prehistorical lore justifications that weren't this powerful in a far less balanced system don't justify the change. Defiling should be a matter of roleplay and little else. Arcane magic isn't more powerful on Darksun; the core difference is in its effect on the world and on the price you pay to use it. Having arcane characters being more powerful on Athas than they are on Faerun is counter intuitive. Second, the idea of allowing SKs to remove the arcane caster powers is in direct contradiction with everything in 4e. Not even gods can strip their clerics of their powers; once again, I can't fathom why SKs should. It's too much power in the hands of the DM, and a serious limit to roleplaying options, and personally I can't even see the benefits. In short what you're proposing is to make the game worse in order to better follow the lore. If it works for you and your players, just go for it, but generally speaking, any lore element that makes the game worse is simply put a bad lore elements. |
| #4sekerAug 20, 2010 14:03:29 | After seeing all the discussions on here and looking over the various rules from the book, I thought I would list the house rules I am planning to use and see what people think. This was only referring to the powers from the Templar theme not to the Warlock pact which specifically stated you could not be stripped. (The SK pact actually is more like the trained defilers that served the SK's in the original version... cannot remember their name off hand though, started with an A and was a kit in 2 ed.) And nothing in the theme states they cannot be stripped of the powers. Almost all of the Templar theme powers are based on commanding others and a sense of civic power almost. (Another reason I was looking at them not being able to defile with them.) Add to this they were always described as channeling the power to the templars prior. This is why I was looking at having them lose them on the death of the SK. As to why they would grant this power vs. teaching it... first fewer competition for resources, second gives them a hold/control over their templars... you fail you lose the ability you rely on. Btw out of curiousity, how do you handle a warlock (from normal 4 ed.)that breaks with his pact, do you have it that they still have all their powers?... or does breaking the pact break the powers source? 2. Any other arcane power can defile at the choice of the character. At-will, utility, and encounter powers defile an area of close 1. Daily powers defile an area of close 1/2 level of power. (Minimum 1.) On number 2. I was specifying the standard, which is as per the normal rules. Number 3 hower included my revised version of the feature not just that sentence. In addition, each living creature (ally or enemy) within the area being defiled takes necrotic damage equal half his or her healing surge value. Free additional offensive capability with no attack roll need, no save, no resistances seems a little strong even if it is minor damage. I wonder how that will effect the balance of encounters? Well first off it hurts the caster as well as any allies in range, has no effect on minions, and given that enemies normally have more HP that players actually puts the party at a disadvantage with this ability. Also has a much lower range on low level spells which means it will be effecting mainly the party, but when you get into the high levels it will hit your allies no matter where they are. (especially given that most arcane casters stay more at range, save swordmages.) And again follows on with the fluff of characters in the books/fluff/previous versions modules like the SK's, Nok, and other arcane casters effecting everyone around them... friend and foe alike. Note, as minions have a healing surge value of 0, they take no damage from this effect. Well it is an important note to make sure that people do not try and abuse it to get rid of alot of minions just by casting one defiling spell. Let's look at an example of a level 1 encounter using Kruthik's... level 1 encounter would be 1 adult (level 4 brute, HP 67), 2 young (level 2 brute, HP 43), and 3 hatchlings (level 2 minions) Vs. standard 4 man level 1 group with the arcane caster being a warlock. We will be nice and average the HP of the group is 30 per. Casting a 1st level daily spell would only effect creatures within 1 square of the caster for the defiling. Max damage to enemies (if all 3 brutes are surrounding him, in which case he is dead next round anyway) is 8 to the level 4, and 5 each to the level 2's, but at the cost of 3 damage to yourself... but again you are surrounded by 3 NPC that are all at least double your level. (and they can do either 13 or 10 damage per round each) However on the other hand if you only have party members around you, (which is far more likely) or their minions you can do up to 12 damage total to the party while doing no damage to the enemies. (That cannot be resisted.) So while it is possible to do more damage to the enemies in an encounter with this, it is more likely to damage your party even worse. (as it is the same percentage damage on average, but players have less health overall.) As if it is a war of attrition, the party is going to lose out. 4. Use of the Arcane Defiling feature can cause Defiling Addiction. The addiction is to act as an offset. The more you use the arcane feature, the more likely you are to be unable to use any arcane power without defiling. (Note this does not give you the damge to people or reroll, this is just regular defiling that just kills plants.) Which means you have no way to hide what you are doing. (Not to mention the public reactions to this.) Honestly, this solution combines the worst of 2 worlds. I disagree with your assesment. It is not more powerful, as I demonstrated above, you are more likely to damage party members and other allies than the enemies on all arcane casters save swordmages and some bards. (As most arcane casters are designed around range.) And you Always damage yourself if you use the feature. And even when you are able to damage the enemies with it at higher level, you will also virtually always be hurting your part by the same percentage... the downside is the party has lower overall health than the enemies so in a game of attrition the PCs are on the losing side. Considering no matter what the caster takes damage, even if no one else is in range means they do have a quite dangerous personal cost. Having it only drain from the party only is illogical by the concept of how magic works in darksun. So if there is an effect within the range it has to effect all. However having a static range of 20 does not match up with the concept of draining more power for more powerful spells. (Why would a first level character be able to drain from just as far as a level 30) Personally I prefer the older method of anyone in the defiler radius getting a penalty on all actions vs. actual damage. But as 4 ed. is going more towards damage, and the healing system is more general (as in anyone can heal instead of just divine characters.) damage is not as serious in some ways in 4 ed. (you have more HP, and you can heal yourself in the middle of combat in most cases.) Second, the idea of allowing SKs to remove the arcane caster powers is in direct contradiction with everything in 4e. Not even gods can strip their clerics of their powers; once again, I can't fathom why SKs should. It's too much power in the hands of the DM, and a serious limit to roleplaying options, and personally I can't even see the benefits. You are saying it is in direct contradiction, how? First off this is not divine power, it is more of a pact to grant power by its description. (Note not quite like a warlocks pact, but it specifically states they are "bestowed with the ability to call upon their sorcerer-king's magical might through lengthy pacts.") I explained more about the themes powers above and how they differ, and again how would you handle a normal warlock that violated the basis/wording of their pact itself. Would you have them keep the powers? In short what you're proposing is to make the game worse in order to better follow the lore. If it works for you and your players, just go for it, but generally speaking, any lore element that makes the game worse is simply put a bad lore elements. I disagree with your assesment on it making the game worse. But I would love to continue discussing though, I enjoy debating different views on systems. |
| #5celticmuttAug 20, 2010 19:04:03 |
No one can be stripped of powers from any source in 4e. The only exception is retraining, and you can rtetrain yourself from one theme to another. Otherwise, your theme powers cannot be stripped from you. |
| #6sekerAug 20, 2010 20:20:14 |
I am sorry I mispoke in that response, in my original post I said nothing of them being stripped of the powers, just that they did not work if the SK died... And I had not gone into details on how. There are several presidences for this in powers actually, the best example would be the Beast Keyword in ranger powers. (In which the power itself is useless under certain conditions.) Example of the new Templar Keyword: (Based the keyword's first half from the Beast keyword actually.) Templar A power that has this keyword can be used only while you are linked to an alive or otherwise active Sorcerer-King. As the arcane powers are channelled through this link, no power with this keyword may use the Arcane Defiling arcane feature. All that would be done is this keyword would be added to the powers of the Templar theme. |
| #7PennarinAug 21, 2010 1:22:44 | The addiction mechanic and its end result are nice. Can it be tied to the ashen somehow? |
| #8sekerAug 21, 2010 1:31:32 | Easily. On the ashen I would do something like the following though. Any defiler (specifically has completed the addiction disease and cannot cast as a preserver anymore) that dies either while in the act of defiling or within a area of defiled land risks turning into an ashen. Makes a save, if fails raises the next turn as an ashen. Ashen: (undead type) HP = to healing surge value Casts at will arcane powers at closest living creature untill it dies again. Or something like that, all that has to be added is on the description of ashen, have it say they generate from a defiler that dies either in the act of casting a defiler spell, or within a section of defiled land. BTW hi there Penn, been a while. |
| #9PennarinAug 21, 2010 1:52:15 | Right back at ya, seker. I think Big_Goon on another thread, plus you, have pointed me in the right direction for creating a mechanic that allows a player, as opposed to a monster, to turn into an ashen: just make it become an ashen the round after reaching 0 hit points (a few modifications here and there, nothing drastic), then make it shoot at closest creatures (usually other players) until the player dies (I don't recall the rules on that, will need to check). So that's a few rounds of free shooting, with defiling on all such powers, and perhaps creation of defiled terrain each time. Monsters, though, would turn into another monster upon death, that last one being a MM-style entry called Ashen, three entries in fact, one for heroic, paragon, and epic tier. |