I am a huge fan of the prisom pentad books, so i have implemented a gathering phase for casting spells, the problem is i feel that a preserver is getting the short end and could use some suggetions.
Basically here is the system in a nut shell. the obviouse, before casting spell the energy must be gathered to fuel said spell. each terrain type (there are 5) has a DC and an action requirement for gathering, for example infertile terrain has a DC of 20 ( add arcana mod. we are still testing the numbers) if check fails it is a standard action. If check passes it is a free action if check fails its a standard action. Do you think defilers should get a bonus to the check if so what kind? OK ill start off with this and look forwrd to your replies, I ask one thing only a P.E.C.H. of the system.
Now all classes get fairly (or nominally) comparable powers across all classes and power sources. Wizards are no longer lord-god-king of character classes. They're the best controller but not by all that much. Psions are really good controllers too. Psions get an at-will burst one for d6+int mod damage and -2 to all attacks.
This system would give all arcane power users a serious disadvantage compared to classes using other power sources in 4e.
Forcing a delay onto arcane classes would be devestating to them. Especially melee ones.
If you must do this you must also offset the disadvantage.
For a start I'd give the player the option of fueling the spell from their own hit points if the check fails. Perhaps 1 hp per spell level for an encounter and 2hp per spell level for a daily. Is that too high? Perhaps 1 or 2 hp per tier.
I would not apply it to at-will spells. Perhaps the option of reverting to an at-will instead of encounter or daily if the check fails?
To off-set this you could perhaps give +1 to hit if the check passes.
I may not apply it to utilities either.
What about immediate spells? There are a lot of reactions and interrupts out there.
Perhaps make the power use automatic, but force them to pay the penalty if it fails.
It would still put me off playing an arcane character. Even if you balance it, it's an unwieldy complication to doing something other classes get to do anyway. I'd just play a Psion instead of a Wizard. A Warlord instead of a Bard. A Ranger or Rogue instead of a Warlock. A Warden instead of a Swordmage.
Arcane characters (other than Templars) already need to disguise their power usage in Dark Sun. That's already a role-playing challenge for which the DM can require bluff checks. Adding a mechanic like this would be too much.
However, if you are looking to flavor the time that it takes to gather the spell energy you could work with it using their initiative, which would not affect the overall balance. I still like the idea of a DC based on the terrain and the arcane modifier accordingly.
So using that system if they beat the DC they gain a bonus to their initiative and the spell is able to go off prior to their base initiative and if they miss their DC they have a penalty to their base initiative for that round. As for the defiler you could still use the same system, but maybe they would not have the penalty for missing the terrain DC.
The bonus to their initiative would be based on how much they beat or miss the terrain DC.
This would have to be done at the beginning of every round and they would start from the base initiative every round.
maybe this could be used for the defiler ?
great idea. ok just want to let you know that yes i use the 4th edition rules but i do not alow alot of the player races and all those crazy classes i might use the new rules but sticking again to the prisim pentad, well maybe some of the "new races" from the pristine tower still chewing that over. could you maybe explain your last line about the base initiative. please keep the suggestions coming . lol wait to the next post and we go over defiling which iam sorry is just to lame and the players no there is no way we are using that rule. i also would like your feed back on how to handel gathering in the same area1. increase the DC
2. Change the terrain type to the next worse one ?
keep the ideas coming we play about once aweek. Thanks again
So the defiler character get a 10 for his initiative (this is the base initiative).
Round 1:
Since he plans to cast a spell he rolls a terrain DC and beats it by 3, so for that round his initiative is now 13. (Base Initiative 10 + 3 from beating the terrain DC)
Round 2:
Again he plans to cast a spell and rolls a terrain DC, but misses by 5, so for that round his initiative is now 5. (Base Initiative 10 - 5 from missing the terrain DC)
Rounds 3+:
so on and so forth....
Hopefully this helps...or is it as clear as mud?
hmm do you think set numbers for the base would be a better way or go with your roll?
by the way i am going to impliment your system into mine
In regards to him just moving over a square to get out of the defiled area, I would not have any hard rule, but would rather ad-lib this idea. So having the defiler move from one side of the room to the other would probably work fine for small spells, but eventually that will catch up to him and he will not have anywhere to run without taking himself out of the combat area...
hmm do you think set numbers for the base would be a better way or go with your roll?
Not quite sure what you are asking here...
An important consideration is how this will play game after game, round after round. At some point the players will likely say "I get it... I'm drawing plant energy... must I roll a skill check every time I want to cast something?" Additionally, the mechanics of a d20 are such that a bad roll will usually not accurately represent the capabilities of the caster. What, they forgot how to draw power this round? When a player rolls a 1 it feels like bad luck, not some thematic moment about the plant life being challenging.
My suggestion would be to make this an optional rule with a benefit and to make the benefit larger for defiling. Normal arcane casting works, drains power slowly, etc. But if you want to heighten your spell then you must draw more carefully, requiring some skill. While an arcana check is an obvious way to do that, my recommendation would be something like this: Minor action to draw energy and roll a d6 or d8, with a bonus for every 10 points of passive arcana skill. The d6 or 8 is against a table of things that happen when drawing energy, where higher rolls are better (bonus to damage, choose one target and push them, etc.) and very low rolls are bad (magical feedback damage, defile by mistake, etc.). For ideas consider the Wand of Wonder and Wild Magic in AD&D. The results should be commensurate with a minor action and might even require a feat.
What is nice about this system is that it represents chosen risk and luck is an accepted part with high arcana reducing the chance of a drastic failure. A high level arcanist just doesn't defile by mistake, etc. You can also have the table of stuff that happens change by terrain. The PC might not even know what it is... it could be hidden. Bad terrain with low plants could perhaps impose a penalty or just have more or worse negative results. This lets you change the rules easily as you go, choosing results that make sense for the tier of the PCs, the terrain, etc. And, you could have NPCs or even monsters use it.
You could even make it like a power, usable x times per day or encounter to further keep it from making combats run too long. To be honest, once an encounter is flavor enough for most tables with such an optional rule. At 1/encounter and a minor action cost it could be something all arcanists get for free. With a high arcana it could be a bonus in most cases, but by being unpredictable it stays interesting and can't be optimized very easily.
1. where it stands i have it so when they gather the terrain type is always one better
2. i refuse to use the new reroll over they have as it stands the bonus has to involve damage, area of effect and now that spells work like melee a bonus to hit. i could def use suggetions on this
3. I know the new rule says something about it being used on either a at-will or something. could not understand why and yes i saw the feats they could use it for other spells supposedly for game balance. well thats not happening. Yes i like the 4th edition rules yes i use them but like any good DM you make inprovements were you see work for your style of game play. back to the subject at hand, i have seen the wand of wonder and wild magic i have been DMing since the first hard cover book ,lol and like i stated earlyier i have always based my game mechanics on the troy denning descriptions. OK i am rabeling now. so any suggestion would be much appreciated
4. there are class feats for both the defiler and preserver yes they are seperate classes( just so you all know i do not alow alot of the other spellcasters in the game period) for example the preserver can carry over what he has gathered so terrain is not a factor to cast their next spell. still working out the kinks on this. like how long ? any suggetions
5. The defiler so far i think the gathering in terrain type one better is solid enough but if anyones havea suggestion by all means throw them out there
just want to say thanks for all the input i have kept an eye on this forum on and off for some time and it just dwindeled i knew if i got a thread started for those of us that love sadira we could put our heads together and help work out some of the mechanics.
last question my next issue is the cleric should we start a new post , this should be fun.
as far as the cleric is concerned i reserve the primal power source for druids. i would like to see what the new book has on heroes of the elemental chaos ( i think thats what they are calling it) i guess we finaly get the elemental power souce. the problem is we need a priest will be heading to the obsidan plain/ deadlands. should i use the priest they have laid out in essentials or phb how do i explain the healing powers turn undead with no gods. i would like to stick to the cleric be abel to choose only one element base ( just what iam used to and it just fits well in dark sun)
if someone could help me with a sun cleric i would so appreciate it my players have also read the prisim pentat books and he wants a sun crleic . thanks everyone for the postive feedback. I have been dming since the origanl game and look forward to everyones imput. I was not looking for coments that this doesnt work the rules sya this or that its what i have been using along time so thanks .
thanks again i am so glad we have a great dark sun community and it goes with out saying that to every one that took the time to post .
If you really want to emulate the story from the prism pentad, the best system for that would be going back to the Defilers & Preservers mechanic from 2nd Edition Spells and Magic. if your PCs are just going to be preservers, leave the system as-is and every couple games your player(s) will be tempted to defile and you jack up the power of NPC defilers. That's a lot simpler than having to roll before every power and track multiple terrain types constantly.