Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lizardmage Aug 15, 2010 8:25:31	Ok, I don't recall seeing a thread like this (though the primer is very useful) so I figure I'd start one.  If there is such a thread then sorry for the repeat.  Anyway I am about to start a writing up a campaign for Dark Sun and had some questions as a DS newb and figure there are others with various questions so why not help each other out.  I'll lead with this question.  1)  How do you balance an adventure if you have a member of the Templar and a member of the Veiled Alliance in the party?  2)  Are more concrete goals better for Dark Sun PC's as opposed to the more abstract.  Say "Getting from Nibenay to Tyr" rather than "Liberate all the City States from the SKs."
#2 Sarlax Aug 15, 2010 10:54:34	On Templars with the Veiled Alliance, I think the best way to manage the conflict is to understand the PCs' motives for joining either group. The Veiled Alliance is usually joined by preservers who have noble intentions, which are the elimination of defiling and overthrow of the sorcerer-kings. It's not perfect, but I think a good analogy is the Rebel Alliance of Star Wars, which is a political effort to remove the Emporer but has leaders who also have a spiritual mission to restore the Jedi. So, the simple narrative is that the VA constitutes good guys. However, you can tell a more complex story in which individuals in the group have more selfish goals - perhaps they think that preservers should rule rather than defilers, and only in the interest of managing precious resources. Another member might join to bring about the downfall of a particular sorcerer-king, who, years before, sacrificed his family members in magical experiments. It's also likely that some members are, at any given time, actually spies for the templars and SKs. Heck, a very canny SK might secretly protect the Veiled Alliance because it acts an institution of magical research; by permitting it to exist and leaving spies within it, the SK has access to new rituals and magical powers that might not be as easily understood through the lens of defiling. The Veiled Alliance has room for motives beyond "save what's left of the planet," but still, most preservers are good guys in one way or another. The Templars, I believe, certainly have a more diverse range of motives for joining. Each SK has her own system for selecting templars. In Balic, templars are elected (in carefully managed contests). In Urik, the templars are very much a meritocracy. In Raam, they are selected via divination by Abalach-Re, and their own desires are irrelevant. Truly, templars can come from any background and may have any number of reasons for joining the bureaucracy of a sorcerer king. In most cities, I suspect most do it for power or because it's a good "career move." Drawn largely from successful free citizens and nobles, these people see who's really in charge in town and want a slice of the pie. Most probably tell themselves they aren't doing anything wrong, since the system is already in place and is too big to change, and end up gradually corrupting themselves. Others might be doing it for business reasons. A merchant house might pressure their younger child to become a templar so that they can earn favors in the city government. Others might be free educated people for whom the life of the templar is the only way to use their skills. Some may be drawn for religious reasons - certainly in Draj or Gulg. Gulgan templars are perhaps most likely to have a sincere religious belief in the divinity and goodness of Lalali-Puy; she has protected her people from the harshness of the dead desert, after all. A templar Urik might have sought his position because of a firm belief in the danger of arcane magic. Recognizing that there's no hope to remove Hamanu himself, this templar seeks instead to prevent the spread of arcanists, and does not distinguish between preservation and defiling. Having a member of the Veiled Alliance and templar in the same party is, I think, a great opportunity to explore such important aspects of the world of Athas. It need not result in inter-party battle, but expect some tense conversations and good role-playing. I would be inclined to arrange adventures in which these two characters are exposed to things they didn't expect from the other side. I think the VA in particular stands to learn a lot - to them, the templars are agents of the sorcerer-kings' evil, but a particular templar could have any reason to be what she is. Have an adventure in which the party must assist local templars to stop a series of brutal murders, or have templars hire them to capture a deadly beast from the desert, whose blood is a necessary component for a ritual to protect the city. For templars trained to hunt all unauthorized magic-users, give them the chance to see preservers helping their city, even at risk to themselves.
#3 ian.thomson Aug 15, 2010 11:48:14	If the templar is a templar of Kalak, then there doesn't absolutely need to be a conflict, there are undoubtedly templars that are happy to see Kalak gone.  If the templar is not of Kalak, but the templar and the VA member are from two different cities, "bigger fish to fry" works, because the VA operates as independant cells in each city.  A VA member from Urik would be more concerned with overthrowing Hamanu than Nibenay, and so a Nibenese templar in Urik would be relatively safe from the VA (which, actually, isn't all that safe, the dedicated members of VA would carry out car bombings if cars were introduced to Athas).  And (as Sarlax points ou) if the Nibenese templar and the Urikite VA member happen to come across some random defiler in the desert, they can develop a sense of comradery taking turns cussing and shanking the guy. Also, there are certainly folks that join the local VA or templarate because they're not bad at the job and they get dental, but otherwise aren't all that concerned with the bigger picture. As for goals, I'd consider that to be a matter of tier, and characters in the party.  If the characters are all heroic tier templars from Draj, then goals are probably going to pretty definate ("Make sure the Prince doesn't leave this room until I come and get 'im." "Not to leave the room even if you come and get him.")  If everyone's a VA member, elemental priest, primal guardian, etc, at epic tier, with an avangion in tow, then the party is probably going to be focused on overthrowing the SKs.
#4 raistlinofsolace Aug 15, 2010 11:50:10	If Athas is filled with countless savage predators, what are they eating? For that matter, where are the plants? I open my DSCS and it's telling me all about these barren, incredibly inhospitable places where at best you'd have a cactus or two, and then I open my Creature Catalog, and it's telling me about the dozen varieties of terrors that inhabit these lands. Where are the herbivores, and what are they eating?
#5 ian.thomson Aug 15, 2010 12:02:17	If Athas is filled with countless savage predators, what are they eating? For that matter, where are the plants? I open my DSCS and it's telling me all about these barren, incredibly inhospitable places where at best you'd have a cactus or two, and then I open my Creature Catalog, and it's telling me about the dozen varieties of terrors that inhabit these lands. Where are the herbivores, and what are they eating? The older books did cover that better, there are shrubs that grow in places, most herd animals are capable of eating every part of the plant (give them a tree from our world, they'll eat the leaves, the roots, the bark, and gnaw at the wood some), but most Athasian herd animals are actually omnivores, some capable of living off of excrement from other species.  Also, the city states are irrigated, and there are some oases.  You may want to look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara#Flora_and_f... (blighted, blasted, desolate desert doesn't mean no plants at all). Some critters from the 2e books (haven't been able to get the 4e books yet...): Aprig - Small, piglike critters with hard shells.  Can be milked for really bad milk.  Shells can be used for bowls. Baazrag - Spiked armadillo like critter, may be used as a team animal.  Contains about 25 pounds of meat, and 1d4 pints of tainted water.  Occasionally, a single large baazrag will be born instead of a litter, this will grow into a boneclaw, an 8 foot tall critter that only looks to eat and kill.  Boneclaws have 125 pounds of stringy, gamey, meat. Carru - Cattle like critters, with fluid storage sacs behind their heads.  Heads set on the forward part of their heads.  Adult males provide 250 pounds of meat, females provide three gallons of milk a day and 200 pounds of meat.  The milk keeps for a few days.  The fluid sac contains 3 to 9 pints of water, and can be kept as a waterskin. Erdlu - Super ostriches, about 200 pounds and 7 feet tall.  Eggs may be eaten raw, each egg substituting for a gallon of water for up to a week, and containing all the nutrients needed for a month (that is, a person may eat just the eggs as regular meals for those times before needing to supplement it with meat and/or vegetables). Erdland - Larger cousin of the Erdlu, used as a mounts or team animals.  Scaly hide can be used to make hide, provide about 700 pounds of meat. Hurrum - Beetles with a pleasant hum and decorative shells.  Kept by some better merchant houses.  Placing one on one's skin creates a gentle, pleasing vibration and slight breeze.  Halflings in particular find them pleasing, and if hungry, delicious. Jankx - Like ground hogs, but vicious and poisonous.  Golden pelts are highly prized.  Meat is like puffer fish, a potentially poisonous delicacy.  One Jankx is recommended for elves and humans.  When cooking a Jankx, it unleashes an odor that royally ticks off all other jankx in range. Kank - Large, ant or beetle like insects used as mounts.  About 4 feet tall, 8 feet long, 400 pounds.  Produce melon-sized globules of green honey which can be eaten for up to three weeks before needing to supplement it with meat and/or vegetables. Kip - Scared, leathery-armored critters with six short legs, a snout, and small, beady, glass-covered eyes.  Diggers that eat roots.  Communicate with low grunts, which kip herders learn to mimic.  One roasted kip can feed 2 very hungry dwarves, one stewed kip can easily feed six.  Kept mostly by dwarves.  When scared, they may release a pheremone cloud that makes people apathetic.  These pheremones can be milked. Rasclinn - Vegetarian dogs that have a metallic coat from trace metals in their diet.  Their hides may be made into armor (count as chain), or smelted for iron (as much as the cost for chain). Renk - Slugs about the size of leechs which drink sweat for nourishment, and purify it.  Renks are eaten raw and provide a 1/2 cup of water when eaten.  Occasionally, merchants may sell a leech or two with renks.  Breed in stagnant water and rotten grain. Sygra - Cloven-hooved quadrupeds with short, hairy coats and sensitive noses.  Resemble a horse with horns.  Can be milked and eaten for meat. Z'tal - Small, upright lizards that panic easily and naturally herd.  If a bunch of them scream at once, everyone within earshot may suffer vertigo.  May be eaten.  The two drumsticks and the tail may feed six adults or one half-giant when roasted.  A stewed Z'tal feeds a dozen people easily.  The sharp feather-scales may be used as small knives or razors for about a week.
#6 mouthymerc Aug 15, 2010 12:12:28	For that matter, where are the plants? Many plants have been adapted into either terrain or hazards.  I'm sure we will see more as articles in Dungeon. Where are the herbivores, and what are they eating? There are few herbivores.  Many herd animals are omnivores by necessity.  The reason most have not been statted, in all likelihood, is that they tend to not be threatening.  Again, this is probably something that can be fullfilled by an article.
#7 Pennarin Aug 15, 2010 12:14:42	Whenever the DSCG mentions there's something else than barren wastes or sand dunes, there's vegetation of some kind - usually too tough to be eaten by humans -  foraged by herds of kanks, crodlu, and inixes, which creatures kill for meat and Tyr region inhabitants use for food, mounts, and beasts of burden. So there is vegetation, just nothing a human can chop down and eat, or settle down and farm. But animals are fine with it, having adapted like many real-world animals did in arid regions; strong, multiple stomachs, good masticating teeth, excellent water extraction and retention.
#8 raistlinofsolace Aug 15, 2010 13:01:24	This is great information. Thank you so much, folks!
#9 lizardmage Aug 15, 2010 13:22:43	@ Sarlax and Ian.thomson (and anyone interested in answering) Do you think given Andropinis' views on "perserving" the land that a Balic Templar would be more willing to work with a VA memeber, or both at least seeing eye to eye enough that the VA does not need to hide his abilities around the Templar?  Thanks for your responses on that one though, definitly has helped me think of ways to work with that situation if it comes up.
#10 mouthymerc Aug 15, 2010 13:31:41	Do you think given Andropinis' views on "perserving" the land that a Balic Templar would be more willing to work with a VA memeber, or both at least seeing eye to eye enough that the VA does not need to hide his abilities around the Templar?  Is it more important for the templar to get his job done or to turn in a arcane-user?  I'm assuming that if he has left the city he has some other purpose other than hunting arcane-users.  Not to mention that unless the arcane-user goes out of his way to show his magic skills or defiles (VA though so that shouldn't be an issue), it shouldn't be that much of an issue.  The templar can just turn a blind eye in the pursuit of whatever mission that is the focus.
#11 ian.thomson Aug 15, 2010 15:38:38	Do you think given Andropinis' views on "perserving" the land that a Balic Templar would be more willing to work with a VA memeber, or both at least seeing eye to eye enough that the VA does not need to hide his abilities around the Templar?  Is it more important for the templar to get his job done or to turn in a arcane-user?  I'm assuming that if he has left the city he has some other purpose other than hunting arcane-users.  Not to mention that unless the arcane-user goes out of his way to show his magic skills or defiles (VA though so that shouldn't be an issue), it shouldn't be that much of an issue.  The templar can just turn a blind eye in the pursuit of whatever mission that is the focus. I'd say it works the other way around as well.  If the VA member is from another city, he's probably going to be focused on overthrowing that city's SK more than he would Andropinis. However, the entire reason the VA entered Balic was only because it was sorta difficult to acquire spell components, so a Balikite templar would probably ignore a preserver's magic if it advanced his own goals.