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New Nobles

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
RalofTyr
Jun 23, 2010 18:03:30 Given the backstabbing and scheming on Athas, Noble houses are bound to fall. In the 2eR Monster Compendium, it says new Nobles are rarely created. If that's really the case, then eventually, there will be only one noble-house per city-state as over the thousands of years, one would have emerged to take all the land in the Verdant Belt not owned by the SK.

Now, new Noble houses have to be formed to replace the ones lost. One noble house can't exist; there's no one of birth-rank to marry.

#2
xlorep_darkhelm
Jun 23, 2010 18:24:01 I'd imagine that over thousands of years, the SK's have ensured that this scenario wouldn't happen. Intermarrying from noble houses in other city-states, as well as other houses within any given city-state would ensure the gene pool is random enough, and even if a noble house does eventually fall, there are some that end up splitting over time to take up the slack (all you need is 2 ambitious and moderately popular heirs for a single house, and you'd most likely end up with a split between the house and two new ones in its place).

Even so, there are other options. Maybe a merchant house ends up buying a place as nobility in a city-state. Maybe the SK really likes a particular person and elevates that person's family to become nobility. Maybe a templar's family gains enough prestige to weasel its way into the nobility. Sure, it isn't common, but neither is the loss of an entire noble family.
#3
turlough
Jun 24, 2010 9:35:01 Maybe the "new" noble house has to take the name of the "old" one such that the noble house names are static.

After all, no one would run from the dread noble Wesley.

turlough
#4
Tectuktitlay
Jun 24, 2010 14:09:40 Some of the cities DID have means of new nobles coming in to the house. In fact, if I remember correctly, all three with actual City-State of ____ books (Tyr, Nibenay and Gulg; the latter two were in the Ivory Triangle boxed set) had descriptions of how citizens are elevated to nobility. Gulg, for example, has a Red Moon Hunt periodically, and any hunter with a good enough showing during the hunt became a noble.

Thus, I'd imagine that every city-state had some sort of tradition that allowed freemen, usually citizens, to enter the ranks of the nobility.
#5
RalofTyr
Jun 24, 2010 16:42:05 I think I'm going to chalk it up to different styles of writting; the Revised authors had different opinions than the original 2e authors.
#6
Tectuktitlay
Jun 24, 2010 16:52:55 Neither the City-State of Tyr, nor the Ivory Triagle boxed set were from the Dark Sun Revised setting. They were both from the original setting.

City-State of Tyr was from August of 1993, and was written by Walter Baas, who also just so happened to have written...the first 2E monstrous compendium (Terrors of the Desert), where you read the very blurb about nobles (that being said, now that I think about it, I don't think that supplement says much of anything about the nobility, or how social status works at all; This makes sense, as Tyr is a city-state undergoing tremendous change at the time). Ivory Triangle was from June of 1993, a mere two months earlier. The Revised setting came out two years later, in October of 1995. Just an FYI. ;)

Incidentally, "rarely created" is entirely relative. Take the Red Moon Hunt, for example. It is approximately an annual hunt, if I remember correctly, and there are years when no one is elevated to the nobility, and years when multiple people are. In a world where sizable chunks of the populace of every city-state are born and brutally die every year, that does indeed make such a status elevation a rare event.
#7
Pennarin
Jun 24, 2010 18:29:07 Each time someone does a great service to the city, a sorcerer-king may ask "Tell me what is to be your recompense, and you shall have it", and a bold man may answer "For a noble house to rise up upon my name". Some sorcerer-kings, I believe, would acquiesce such a bold claim, ennobling his name while giving him land and a stipend. With that going for him, and the temporary favor of the king preventing foul play from rival nobles, any smart man will make a fortune in renewed opportunities and newly opened doors and secure his family's future for generations to come.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RalofTyr Jun 23, 2010 18:03:30	Given the backstabbing and scheming on Athas, Noble houses are bound to fall. In the 2eR Monster Compendium, it says new Nobles are rarely created. If that's really the case, then eventually, there will be only one noble-house per city-state as over the thousands of years, one would have emerged to take all the land in the Verdant Belt not owned by the SK. Now, new Noble houses have to be formed to replace the ones lost. One noble house can't exist; there's no one of birth-rank to marry.
#2 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 23, 2010 18:24:01	I'd imagine that over thousands of years, the SK's have ensured that this scenario wouldn't happen. Intermarrying from noble houses in other city-states, as well as other houses within any given city-state would ensure the gene pool is random enough, and even if a noble house does eventually fall, there are some that end up splitting over time to take up the slack (all you need is 2 ambitious and moderately popular heirs for a single house, and you'd most likely end up with a split between the house and two new ones in its place). Even so, there are other options. Maybe a merchant house ends up buying a place as nobility in a city-state. Maybe the SK really likes a particular person and elevates that person's family to become nobility. Maybe a templar's family gains enough prestige to weasel its way into the nobility. Sure, it isn't common, but neither is the loss of an entire noble family.
#3 turlough Jun 24, 2010 9:35:01	Maybe the "new" noble house has to take the name of the "old" one such that the noble house names are static. After all, no one would run from the dread noble Wesley. turlough
#4 Tectuktitlay Jun 24, 2010 14:09:40	Some of the cities DID have means of new nobles coming in to the house. In fact, if I remember correctly, all three with actual City-State of ____ books (Tyr, Nibenay and Gulg; the latter two were in the Ivory Triangle boxed set) had descriptions of how citizens are elevated to nobility. Gulg, for example, has a Red Moon Hunt periodically, and any hunter with a good enough showing during the hunt became a noble. Thus, I'd imagine that every city-state had some sort of tradition that allowed freemen, usually citizens, to enter the ranks of the nobility.
#5 RalofTyr Jun 24, 2010 16:42:05	I think I'm going to chalk it up to different styles of writting; the Revised authors had different opinions than the original 2e authors.
#6 Tectuktitlay Jun 24, 2010 16:52:55	Neither the City-State of Tyr, nor the Ivory Triagle boxed set were from the Dark Sun Revised setting. They were both from the original setting. City-State of Tyr was from August of 1993, and was written by Walter Baas, who also just so happened to have written...the first 2E monstrous compendium (Terrors of the Desert), where you read the very blurb about nobles (that being said, now that I think about it, I don't think that supplement says much of anything about the nobility, or how social status works at all; This makes sense, as Tyr is a city-state undergoing tremendous change at the time). Ivory Triangle was from June of 1993, a mere two months earlier. The Revised setting came out two years later, in October of 1995. Just an FYI. ;) Incidentally, "rarely created" is entirely relative. Take the Red Moon Hunt, for example. It is approximately an annual hunt, if I remember correctly, and there are years when no one is elevated to the nobility, and years when multiple people are. In a world where sizable chunks of the populace of every city-state are born and brutally die every year, that does indeed make such a status elevation a rare event.
#7 Pennarin Jun 24, 2010 18:29:07	Each time someone does a great service to the city, a sorcerer-king may ask "Tell me what is to be your recompense, and you shall have it", and a bold man may answer "For a noble house to rise up upon my name". Some sorcerer-kings, I believe, would acquiesce such a bold claim, ennobling his name while giving him land and a stipend. With that going for him, and the temporary favor of the king preventing foul play from rival nobles, any smart man will make a fortune in renewed opportunities and newly opened doors and secure his family's future for generations to come.