| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1ultimate_capJul 06, 2011 21:42:18 | Is anyone using a seperate skill to represent psionic knowledge? There is Arcane and Divine, but (as far as I know) no "psionic" knowledge skill. Are there rules for this in PHB3? Anyone doing this (making it a new/seperate skill)?? |
| #2MalakLightfootJul 06, 2011 23:29:41 | Is anyone using a seperate skill to represent psionic knowledge? There is Arcane and Divine, but (as far as I know) no "psionic" knowledge skill. Are there rules for this in PHB3? Anyone doing this (making it a new/seperate skill)?? Far Realm knowledge is Dungeoneering, used to identify creatures with the Aberrant trait. Otherwise, use Arcana. Only consider adding new Skills to your game if you think it will measurably improve your game. If the only things "Psicraft" will be used for are the same things Arcana would be used for, there is no reason to introduce a "Psicraft" Skill. |
| #3ultimate_capJul 07, 2011 10:32:23 | Is anyone using a seperate skill to represent psionic knowledge? There is Arcane and Divine, but (as far as I know) no "psionic" knowledge skill. Are there rules for this in PHB3? Anyone doing this (making it a new/seperate skill)?? Well, I think gotta disagree with that. I mean, I agree with you in general, but in regards to "psicraft" (as you put it, which I like, ;) ) in the world of Dark Sun, psionic power is another "craft" all on it's own. You gotta remember, when 4e came out, there was no psionic power source (like arcane and divine). And there was no Dark Sun. Both of those things have changed. Again, in principle, I agree with you, but I think this might be one of those exceptions to the rule. At least in Dark Sun, but perhaps in any setting. If there are arcane schools and divine schools (at least in other settings) I think a very strong case can be make for psionic schools and skills. Yes, you'd use the skill for all the same things you would arcane, but having all the arcane knowledge in the world should not help you to identify a psionic source or comprehend texts explaining complex psionic theory. Nor should psicraft allow a practitioner of "the way" to understand arcane knowledge or read arcane text, or recognize what spell is being cast, etc. I dunno, I can be conviced to go either way, but would really like some more input on the matter. Anyone? |
| #4MalakLightfootJul 07, 2011 10:46:30 |
Psionics was a planned power source from the beginning. The designers made a conscious choice not to include a Psionics skill in the PHB, and made the choice to not do so again with the release of the PHB3. The rules as designed see no difference in the results, regardless of source. A magic item enchanted by a Divine character is no different from one enchanted by an Arcane character. The source of power may be different, but the actual effect on the game world is not. If you want to create a difference in the way Arcana is used between Psionic and Arcane characters, add 5 to the DC when each is attempting to understand the other group's stuff (this effectively negates Skill Training) unless the character has taken Skill Focus - Arcana or multiclassed into a Psionic or Arcane class (as applicable). This will be a houserule, so be sure your players know about it before they sit down to create characters. |
| #5HarbringerOfNokJul 07, 2011 11:10:14 | I would have to agree that the setting of Dark Sun differs from that of other realms enough to warrant a change such as this. Religion - Divine, Arcana - magic, Psicraft - psionics. With schools, orders and whole communities based around psionics, I don't think this would be a stretch to place within any homebrew campaign. |
| #6MalakLightfootJul 07, 2011 11:41:59 |
Religion and Arcana do not serve the same function relative to their power sources. Arcana is the study of how magic (all magic, including Divine) interacts with the world. Religion is the study of the gods and the Astral Sea. With schools, orders and whole communities based around psionics, I don't think this would be a stretch to place within any homebrew campaign. Absolutely, and the Dark Sun world has these Psionic Orders and communities. Feel free to expand them and create new ones. The presence or non-presence of a Psicraft skill has zero effect on the viability of those story elements. Personally, I think it is a needed change. 4e made psionics (mind magic) blend way too much with other magic sources, which just doesnt fit in DS. If the only thing Psicraft is good for is to be "Arcana for Psionics," then it is completely superfluous. Once you understand that the Arcana skill deals with all magic, and not just Arcane magic, the "need" for Psicraft falls away. If you really feel the need to create a separation between magic of differing sources, a circumstance penalty is a far more elegant solution that does not require the creation of entirely new game elements. |
| #7ian.thomsonJul 08, 2011 6:46:18 | Adding new skills is generally a bad idea because 4e doesn't use skill points. Psionic and arcane magic meshing together IS very much Athasian, the only way to really excel in one was to study the other in the original setting. I'd say that 4e DS really dropped that since you don't have to study psionics to become a Dragon or Avangion anymore. Arcana is a bit poorly named, since it is just an all purpose magic skill. Religion is NOT the divine magic skill, religion covers knowledge but not practice. Knowing a religion and practising it are two different things: I've better studied some religions more than their average followers, but I don't practise all (or even most) of them. But, since Religion is only being used for ID'ing undead and immortals (RAW*), perhaps move that function over to arcana, and then replace religion with psionics/psicraft. It would allow for detect psionics while arcana's detect magic could only detect non-psionic magic; and you could incorporate some 2e stuff like Silt Skifs (or whatever it was), making the player make a rather difficult "swim" check using psionics to keep the thing afloat. *When I ran a DS game, I actually used Religion to identify and understand templar and elemental priestly rites, paraphenalia, and jargon. Not all real religions have gods, and someone's god(s) might not exist. This could also be used to bring in psychic duels: A character could spend a standard action to initiate a duel with someone within sight, and then on the challenged character's turn he spends a standard action to accept it or a move action shrugging off the duel. If he refuses, nothing happens. If he accepts, they make opposed psionics checks. If neither gets five points higher than the other, nothing happens. If one gets five points higher, the loser is stunned their next turn. If one gets over ten points higher, the loser is stunned until the end of the winner's next turn. The different wild talents could also be paired up with different skills that a character could substitute for psionics; like a character with body equilibrium could substitute psionics for acrobatics checks. However, beyond that, psychic duels, detecting and identifying psionic phenomena, I don't think that a new psionic skill should have too many uses. Still, a psionics skill is unnecessary. I like MalakLightfoot's suggestion of giving a penalty when ID'ing sources of magic besides one's own, though I think I would perhaps allow it as an option to get a bonus to ID'ing one's own source of magic, and allow players to choose which source of magic they're better at ID'ing. It could be entirely possible for a fey pact warlock to be more familiar with primal magic than most arcane magic, and it'd also be out of the question for a would-be avangion to be more familiar with common psionics than arcane magic. |
| #8ultimate_capJul 08, 2011 10:34:05 | Thanks for the reply Ian. Appreciate all the input. I'm thinking I'm leaning toward not adding it, just because the system works fine "as is". If I do decide to add it, I'll definately make it "work it" functionality wise, but maye just wrapping it ino Arcane works just as well. I do like your ideas though Ian, good creative stuff. |
| #9awaken_D_M_golemJul 22, 2011 14:38:33 | R.A.W. = no , but you already know that. A legit justification for doing this, could be since there isn't supposed to be Divine anything, you could make Divine writ large in Psionics. There is no divine. Instead, there is psionics. So use the exact same mechanics. There is no Know Divine skill; instead it's Know Psi. 3.e introduced psi/magic "non" transparency. Specifically Detect Magic did not detect Psionics. And vice versa. Making a Detect Psionics check that works only with Psi, as a direct port from the detect magic part of Arcana, and Arcana's doesn't work with Psi, seems OK to me. Of course this isn't finished, or all that clear, but could be useable. Conversions that are totally kosher, aren't my specialty; so I'll pass. ?? |
| #10awaken_D_M_golemJul 22, 2011 14:45:46 |
Magic Items are boringly the same as Psi items. Sigh. Boons -- otoh -- can be very different. DMG2 has specific divine boons. The basic structure of boons can include: A) ... a totally separate group of "psionic" boons (the psi part just being fluff really, but not duplicatable by other boons) B) ... boons applied to items. The underlying item can be Psi specific. Technically the boon doesn't have to be. C) ... Dark Sun's version of this can go further afield, but the text is not all that specific. So ... a Psi Boon, or a Boon on a Psi Item, or some more wiggle room from Dark Sun. |
| #11TectuktitlayJul 22, 2011 15:46:56 | All I've done is replace Religion with Psicraft. For monster knowledge checks, Abberrants are moved from Dungeoneering to Psicraft, Undead are moved from Religion to Dungeoneering, and Immortals are moved from Religion to Arcana. Religion no longer exists as a skill. |
| #12ludwig5Jul 22, 2011 18:43:43 | I use insight ,even for rituals in place of arcana (psionic character only) |
| #13ultimate_capJul 23, 2011 20:52:28 | All I've done is replace Religion with Psicraft. I like this in general, but the one big problem I have with this is that there is still religion. The templars and the thier dogma are all religious practices, even if it's not a "real diety". |
| #14TectuktitlayJul 24, 2011 11:52:46 | All I've done is replace Religion with Psicraft. I actually consider knowledge of the templars of the city-states to be more a combination of local History and Streetwise checks, with more of the former than the latter. While it may be interpreted as a dogmatic religion, certainly, and is even intended as such in some city-states, I see the templarate as less a religious organization and more a complicated, ancient, well-established heirarchical governmental beauracracy. So, while there are similarities, this is the thing of History, not religion. Especially in light of the fact that a huge portion of the day-to-day lives of most people revolves around functioning within a city-state and its beauracracy, and that actual historical knowledge is so esoteric, so unknown to the overwhelming majority of people, and often flat-out illegal to know. |
| #15DontEatRawHagisJul 26, 2011 9:11:07 |
Its not a real religion however, its more like a group of magic users. No templar uses divine magic, all of it is Arcana. While there are still themes carried over from real religions there is no reason why you can't roll knowledge Streetwise, history or Arcana to gain knowledge. If I want to know who the chief templar of Kalak is, I would most-likely roll Streetwise, because the Chief Templar seems to be more of political position. This might not be true for your campaign. I've seen this topic come up a few times since 4e Dark Sun was released. As far as Psionic/Psycraft as a class skill Ardents and Battleminds should have the option to choose Psionic as a character class. Psion should be required to have Psionic/Psycraft as a skill.
As far as re-flavoring Magic items as Psionic. I made it so that Psionic items are attached to the user more than other items. For example, the rogue in my campaign had throwing knives that would return to him (similar to thor's hammer). Note: I think we need a re-flavor Psionic weapons thread. |