Simply put: there are no gods, but are there religions?
There aren't D&D gods, but there are figures that are worshipped as gods. Some tribes of creatures in the desert worship stuff that doesn't exist. Many of the Sorcerer-Kings, even most do not proclaim themselves to be gods, are often worshipped. Some elemental priests believe their powers are granted by old gods, and those that don't still fit the bill for animistic religions. There's also some views on psionics that borders on religion.
Animistic elemental cults worshipping the sacred flame, or leaving offerings for the big rock on the edge of the farmlands; followers of different spirits battling for the supremacy of their sect; city projects being upset by civilians complaining the templars are angering a local spirit(s) (ie: "You can't build THERE. Iroh the Iron-one LIVES there!").
Pantheistic druids worshipping the divinity of nature, hunting down wizards or stirring up crowds against the evils of wizards (who, after all, by defiling the land are clearly defiling the sacred and holy divine spirit which will someday abandon the world entirely unless we KILL THEM ALL). Etc. Etc.
They know of the black and the gray, or at least most casters would I would think. That answers questions on the afterlife. It could be this is what motivates some people to live as long as they can because the afterlife IS bleak. Maybe even the bad existence of the undead is better than actually having crossed over to the afterlife in Athas.
In the novels, and maybe the revised boxed set, there are hints that ancient people did worship "gods" but there was nothing there. When these worshippers found power in magic or the elements, the worship of "gods" was abandoned. However, many still had faith in these "gods" and were around as wraiths in a book.
I do like greyorm's ideas because they mirror Exalted to some extent. What if there are spirits (or little gods) that protect an area if they are given offerings? They are tied to the land and when the land was defiled, they lost power and the ability to protect those they tried to protect. Imagine a powerful spirit that was killed abruptly due to the dragon going mad or SKs fighting with defiling magic. Maybe a remnant of it still exists in some form, although it's probably insane, and it tries to come back?
Or a group revives or finds a spirit that is almost gone? They could work to increase its power by helping the land.
What I liked was that Dark Sun was more consistent in NOT having gods. FR, while probably accurate to mythology, ended up with a huge mess of gods, spirits, demi-gods and other things as real world and made up pantheons were included.
turlough
That said, the 2nd Edition campaign guide states in the history that were many religions, but no gods, even during the prosperity of the Green Age.
I completely disagree that the presence of magic or psionics in any way, shape or form will downplay the prevalence of religious thought. On the contrary, with so many forms of supernatural, and more discovered all the time, much of it quite at odds with what we would call physics, or completely natural phenomena, the question of what or who is ultimately behind the workings of the universe will be both more likely to be asked, and less likely to be answerable. Especially to commoners, who will be intensely superstitious about such.
Psionics doesn't answer a darned thing about the presence or absence of deity. It only gives you the workings of the minds of the other beings around you. Ultimately, psionics too opens up more questions. Look at Agis. He has no idea from whence the power for the Way emenates. Only that it works. He is a master of the Way, and he and those he corresponds with have absolutely no idea where that power originates. More questions. Anthropomorphizing those questions leads to theistic thought for a great many people.
No paladin?
No Cleric?
No Avenger?
Since there are NO gods they have NO power.
"Hello i'm a paladin, i shall smite you with my mighty blade, Great Rock on The Mountain, help me in my cause!"
*standard basic attack with slashing weapon, not divine at all*
"Hello i'm a fighter, where's your god now?"
*Daily attack, major-butt-kicking the holy champion of Great Rock on The Mountain*
But how does DIVINE classes work in this?
No paladin?
No Cleric?
No Avenger?
Since there are NO gods they have NO power.
"Hello i'm a paladin, i shall smite you with my mighty blade, Great Rock on The Mountain, help me in my cause!"
*standard basic attack with slashing weapon, not divine at all*
"Hello i'm a fighter, where's your god now?"
*Daily attack, major-butt-kicking the holy champion of Great Rock on The Mountain*
Of course, since there are no gods, there are no divine classes.
The "Holy Champion of the Great Rock on the Mountain", however, doesn't need to have one lick of divine power to be a holy champion. Nary a single bit of manifested divine power.
Look at our world. Are holy templars, priests, fanatical warriors of a given god, etc, in any way channeling divine power? No, they are not (they may say they are, but not once, not a single time, has a single instance of verifiable, repeatable, non-anecdotal manifestation of divine power ever occurred). Yet, they are holy warriors or messengers of one or more gods.
The "Holy Champion of the Great Rock on the Mountain" might very well be a warden or barbarian specializing in earth-based attacks. The might simply be a highly-trained fighter, or ranger, or other purely martial character. They might be a swordmage or warlock or other arcane character. They may simply be a powerful user of the Way. They will return the example fighter above's attacks in kind in whatever way they are able, and be sure in their heart that the Great Rock on the Mountain has been good enough to grant them victory.
It would never even occur to an Athasian, thusly, that they're missing out on anything whatsoever. There are not, there have never been, and it is highly likely there will never be gods that grants its followers divine powers. To an Athasian, the gods have always been silent. It's always been the case that the gods only show themselves through natural occurances and the actions of mortals. Just like in the real world.
Some of the more fanatical will insist, of course, that there are divine powers manifested in mortals and the natural world. They will never able to produce evidence or a single concrete example, of course. Yet, they will fanatically say it is so, and will not budge from their position. Just like in the real world.
Philosophers will pontificate on the meaning of life, reality, and everything else. Ideas and ideologies will come, and they will go. Pantheons of gods, regional gods, local gods, monotheistic gods will conceptually rise, and they will fall. Some will remain as a fringe, others stuck in only history books, and others will vanish forever in the dustbin of time. Just like in the real world.
But how does DIVINE classes work in this?
No paladin?
No Cleric?
No Avenger?
Since there are NO gods they have NO power.
Aside from the absence of the Divine classes in Dark Sun, even in PoL, Divine classes are not dependent on the objects of their worship to harness their powers, as these are manifested from the character's faith and devotion, not necessarily from the entity they revere. This is the same reason Paladins can no longer have their powers taken away for engaging in character development.
I was just asking how those classes might be adapted, or how the DIVINE power source might kick in, in such a world with no gods at all.
I know the holy champion of Big Rock on the Mountain might be a Warden, or a Barbarian, but they don't have the mechanic of a Paladin or an Avenger (my two favorite classes).
But as Flashbackjon has stated, they don't really NEED a god to use they're powers. The Paladins, Avengers, Clerics and so on might be trying the create a god (or ascend a specific individual to holyness) and this union draws raw cosmic power, that is used by this organization in the form of holy this, or holy that.
As well, isn't there a martial power-source? So whatever he believes his powers come from, he still has them, regardless of where they're actually from.
One thing that could be done to make this a little more interesting, a little more opaque for the players (so every character who follows some fake god or worships a spirit isn't a total "yeah, he gets his powers from the rock-spirit *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*" inside joke), is the way 7th Sea handled Faith:
You could take a boon (or whatever they were called) known as Faith, but it didn't describe any benefits or penalties. What it DID (if ANYTHING) was only described in the GM's book, and what that was was never revealed to the players (and -- translated to D&D terms, because I won't tell you what Faith really does in 7th Sea -- would be like "the creature has 10 less hp than listed", "listed DCs are lowered by 2", or "nothing at all" -- all things the players could never see happening).
For faithful characters in Athas, you could do something similar -- even just suggesting faith in whatever provides some benefit (even if it didn't), or that clearly their success or lack thereof was the result of their faith or lack thereof. Yes, the players never know, actually, ever (but that's what faith is built on anyways).
I just think banning completely my favorite power source is not going to happen, not in 4e.
I was just asking how those classes might be adapted, or how the DIVINE power source might kick in, in such a world with no gods at all.
I know the holy champion of Big Rock on the Mountain might be a Warden, or a Barbarian, but they don't have the mechanic of a Paladin or an Avenger (my two favorite classes).
But as Flashbackjon has stated, they don't really NEED a god to use they're powers. The Paladins, Avengers, Clerics and so on might be trying the create a god (or ascend a specific individual to holyness) and this union draws raw cosmic power, that is used by this organization in the form of holy this, or holy that.
It's not so much banned as there is no official support for it in Dark Sun. It's been official news for quite some time. It's quite appropriate, since the "divine" classes in 2e bore very little resemblance to their original classes (clerics were powered by elemental forces, templars by their psionist/wizard sorcerer kings).
IIRC, in PoL, it's the ordination that grants the power, and the gods occasionally ordain folks (and assumably ordained the first divine characters). In 4e Dark Sun. Since the gods did exist at one point, so it would make sense that the divine source was present. If you want to include divine power in your game, there could be a small, hidden tradition of divine characters practicing in secret throughout the ages. Or, something that knew the ordination ritual could have broken through the far realms (a spelljammer crashed and a cleric survived, or Nyarlathotep decided to visit). Maybe a character could have figured out the ordination ceremony on their own (especially appropriate if they're multiclassed or hybrid classed).
However, in standard, official, non-homebrew 4e Dark Sun, the divine power source does not exist. Old news.
I do not know what Wotc was thinking when they made the decision to remove divine power from athas. I do not agree with them in the least, either. I would have simply said, "you will not find official support for the divine power source in our 4th edition darksun products." I would have kept silent on the subject and left it up to the DM.
You don't need a deity sitting on a throne in an astral domain in order to have divine classes in your game. That's my point. While those who run RPGA/Encounters probably won't share my view, in a home game, it doesn't matter what the official word is. It's up to the group.
So, instead of allowing wotc to decide, you decide. Will you ban the divine power source? Will you ban specific classes/feats/powers? Will you only allow divine clerics after you reflavor them? It's up to you. This is exactly like anything else.
Still no Divine Power source though.
Works pretty well for our world.
Followers of "The Spirit Way" could be as diverse as the primal spirits themselves. Nomadic tribes could revere fierce spirits of desert wind, flame and sand storms. Others could revere fierce beast spirits such as the "Spirit of the Red Stone Bazraag". I could see a cult of the "Monster Slayers", revering ancestral heroic spirits. I also envision urban dwellers revering ancestral spirits like "Old Uncle" and "Granny". Such beliefs would be oppressed by sorcerer/ kings who believe they were gods or served gods. But in other city states, if followers of "The Spirit Way " can practice in private with out harassment. Although anyone displaying powerful envoking powers such as a Druid or Shaman can easily find themselves hunted by the local templars
I envision "The Way" being practiced by everyone from crafty nobles, arena pit fighters, competing monasteries and isolated hermits deep in the desert. followers of "The Way" seek enlightenment through inner discipline. "The Way" is more of a philosophy than a religion. Under some sorcerer/ kings the practice of "The Way" is melded into the worship of the sorcerer/ king or the sorcerer/ king's gods. Under some sorcerer/ kings the practice and teaching of "The Way" is private and secretive in noble houses, monastaries and gladitorial schools.
I envision the cult of the sorcerer/ kings to have the most tight grip upon the lives of the inhabitants of the city states of the Tyr region. Whether worshipped as gods, obeyed as the will of the gods or revered as a powerful protectors and providers of the city/ state, the cult of the sorcerer/ king would be ever pervasive.
I also envision demon worshiping mutant nomads, bubbling out of the waste to devestate outlying settlements, merchant caravans and wondering nomadic tribes. These cults could from time to time threaten the very walls of a sorcerer king.
I plan to ban divine classes in my upcoming 4e Dark Sun campaign. But there are other spiritual and religious philosophies Pcs can follow, even the worship of long dead gods that do not answer prayers. It's about the role playing in the end.
Robes, big swords, mean attitude, blind devotion (greed, that is)
the only thing out-of-order is Disrupt Undead IMO
"so here comes the band of the desert falcon, they are REALLY good at destroying undeads, i wonder why"
Is there a chance that they'll change the divine classes in some way that'll suit Athas? Like removing Channel Divinity and adding something like Channel The Way, or Channel Psych Energy, Channel Elements?
That would be cool..
*Tavitin brewing some house rules just in case"
Honestly, the easiest way to incorporate the Divine classes is to replace every instance of the word "Divine" with "Elemental" (I would suggest "Primal" but this prevents the more literally-minded among us from abusing unseen synergies).
You could even have your Divine players choose a type of elemental damage, and replace the Radiant damage with their chosen elemental type (and the Radiant keyword with the appropriate keyword). There's so potential abuse there as well, but a heck of a lot of flavor, if I do say so myself. :D
Divine Power Source takes power from a Divine being. Otherwise, it isn't Divine. In other words, if you want to make a sorcerer-king/primal spirit/elemental being/aspect a 'divine' being - then that's fine, you can use the divine power source.
If you want to homebrew existing divine classes, removing powers, etc so that you can play an Avenger* that takes power from the elemental power source, that's fine... but it isn't divine.
Avengers, on the whole, are actually perfectly a-ok mechanically speaking, again sans the anti-undead powers.
Regardless, nothing whatsoever will have the "divine" keyword. It does not exist. At all. The player must pick a different keyword to replace it, and have the other keywords and damage types likewise changed to reflect it. Arcane, primal, elemental, shadow, psionic, and even martial are all perfectly acceptable. So long as a player is willing to tone down the limitations.
The above example of a nomad warrior replacing an avenger would require the character to pick another power source. If they chose, say, martial, they will have certain limitations. Either no teleportation powers, or all such powers now have the psionic keyword and represent a wild talent. No special damage, only straight weapon damage (which is a benefit and penalty in approximately equal measure; no affecting vulnerable critters more severely, but also not stopped by resistant ones).
Divine Power Source takes power from a Divine being. Otherwise, it isn't Divine.
Were you disagreeing or extrapolating?
Mechnically, power sources are just keywords. I specifically chose potential solutions that were simple to implement, didn't undermine the mechanics or spoil the canon, and maintained the symmetry. I was merely suggesting a means to include the divine that interfered very little with the setting itself for the man who misses his classes.
There! An avenger with all his powers, including teleportation (appearing and disapearring in a mist of sand), the only diference is Abjure Undead, its now Abjure Elemental.
Keywords changed from divine to arcane.
Keywords changed from divine to arcane.
Just a word of warning, if it concerns your DM/players/group: this can potentially open up some dreadful (or awesome?) brokenness. This is explicitly while I avoided translating to Primal. Handle with care.
Keywords changed from divine to arcane.
Just a word of warning, if it concerns your DM/players/group: this can potentially open up some dreadful (or awesome?) brokenness. This is explicitly while I avoided translating to Primal. Handle with care.
better yet, erase the word DIVINE and replace it by POWERED (or some other variant) in every feat/PP/Class/material
Divine Power Source takes power from a Divine being. Otherwise, it isn't Divine. In other words, if you want to make a sorcerer-king/primal spirit/elemental being/aspect a 'divine' being - then that's fine, you can use the divine power source.
Eberron gives us an official view on how the divine power source does not need to be connected to divine beings. Faith, Belief and Philosophy are the driving points to divine power in that setting. No gods required, no astral plane required. As hellcow has said, if you have enough faith in your shoes, you can cast divine spells. (paraphrasing)
Darksun can have divine power without the need of gods. Religions not connected to gods are the path to light (written wrongly as the path of light), the silver flame, the blood of vol, the dragon below, the undying court and the spirits of the past. Some of those examples fit beautifully with darksun. The Dragon Below and the spirits of the past, especially.
Thanks to eberron's alternate take on how you can gain divine power, nothing stops us from having something similar in darksun, except the people playing the game. If you don't want divine power in your darksun, it's fine, but if you do, you can and it would work perfectly. No elemental reflavoring needed for divine classes, although you could have elemental religions with divine spellcasters working along side elemental casters.
I suggest folks read up on the eberron religions and how divine power works in that setting. It might inspire you. The way DP works in the PoL isn't the only way Divine Power works. Personally, I see no problem with including divine power in any way. Religions to Sks, the dragon, elements, mystic sites, unique entities and so on. It opens up a real chance for DMs to be creative. Using 2e's explanation of divine power in athas as a reason to exclude it from the setting in 4e doesn't make much sense to me, especially after playing eberron. My avenger of urik gains his power simply by his unflinching faith in the king of the world.
Imo, wotc blew it with their stance on divine power in darksun, when we have such an interesting alternative to the same old bland PoL take on it. I also think every mystic on krynn is either laughing or crying right now.
Divine Power Source takes power from a Divine being. Otherwise, it isn't Divine.
Were you disagreeing or extrapolating?
Mechnically, power sources are just keywords. I specifically chose potential solutions that were simple to implement, didn't undermine the mechanics or spoil the canon, and maintained the symmetry. I was merely suggesting a means to include the divine that interfered very little with the setting itself for the man who misses his classes.
Mostly, a clarification.
Divine power source classes were designed and built around the war between the Gods and the Primordials/Demons/Devils. This is represented, not only in their powers and the keywords they use, but in their class abilities (like Channel Divinity), their primary attributes (majority are wisdom, demonstrating their knowledge of high powers), their powers, their feats and their equipment.
Replacing keywords is a hack. It works, sort of. But you need to go further and make up a lot more, to really play the class - not just balance. This is especially true for the fluff: a lot of the powers, class abilities, etc are defined and work around the concept of working for a Diety.
It's like putting a hat on a dog and calling it a gentleman. If it looks, smells and barks like a dog, it'll never be able to serve tea.
On the side: I have a high level idea of how Eberron works, but I'll read up on it if I get an opportunity. I have a feeling that Dieties in Eberron are still Dieties, even if players don't interact with them (which is kind of the point).
He wants to include a class he loves without butchering it. The powers and features aren't so much defined by working for a deity, so much as they are working for an entity. The divine power source is mostly unique in this fashion, in that it allows players to represent for any of a wild and capricious assortment of self-indulgent miscreants (as more fantasy gods are). As if the entire power source were allowed to select a Warlock pact.
I still think you're getting caught up in semantics, putting too much weight on the connotation of the word "divine." I understand why, but I think we can move beyond the box and still stay true to the design. Aside from alignment differences (which have no inherent value anyhow), how is an Invoker of Kord fundamentally different than an Invoker of Grajjik, the Desert Wind? How much does a Cleric of Moradin really differ from a Cleric of Rotundus, the Resolute Mountain? Is it sufficient to change the basics of the class?
I guess my fundamental question is: how does a divine god differ from any other patron?
I have a feeling that Dieties in Eberron are still Dieties, even if players don't interact with them (which is kind of the point).
Good luck, the best you will find are agents who claim to serve gods. But you'll never read about the actual gods interacting with anyone. Even then, they do not grant divine power, it's faith in your beliefs that do. Hence why religions with no god at all have divine clerics.
You will find tiamat in eberron, but it is stated that she is not a god, but a godlike overlord. Eberron does not have PoL type gods. They have distant gods that may or may not exist. But it is entirely left up to the DM on whether the Fury is an actual god, a concept or a being claiming to be a god.
While I agree with what you're saying, he's trying to fill a different hole than you are.
No hole to fill in my opinion. Divine spellcasters have been a part of the game since its release, back when it was hard for them to fit it into the setting. In 3e, we got the mystic from dragonlance that drew upon it's own internal divine spark, requiring no god to cast divine spells. Then we got eberron which removed the need for a god completely. Divine power comes from faith.
With the alternative, divine power works on athas just fine. If people want to say, Divine power requires a god, then that's entirely their opinion. But it's not the only way divine spellcasters gain their power. Just read up on path to light, the silver flame, the blood of vol, the dragon below, the undying court and the spirits of the past. Those are great examples on how you can include divine spellcasters in darksun without the whole PoL requirements.
It's exactly what I plan to do, as it allows my players to play divine characters.
Good luck, the best you will find are agents who claim to serve gods. But you'll never read about the actual gods interacting with anyone. Even then, they do not grant divine power, it's faith in your beliefs that do. Hence why religions with no god at all have divine clerics.
What is the point of this faith? How does it fuel powers, like those described by Divine classes? Is it the faith of the followers that fuel the power behind the divine classes? Are these powers not personified, so that the believer 'thinks' there is a power beyond, like 'the Dragon below', or a path to harmony and peace through the 'path to light'?
How would the average population of Athas respond to such a faith? Would the average population, hopeless and desperate to survive, not flock to a power that says "there is hope", "there is peace", "there is power". How would the SKs respond to this? Would they not feel completely threatened?
What is the point of this faith?
Could be a number of things. Power, control, hope are just a few of the many reasons.
How does it fuel powers, like those described by Divine classes?
In game terms, simply by faith and the strength of your belief. In mechanical terms, the same way powers function now, only with the individual as the source and not some super powerful cosmic being.
Is it the faith of the followers that fuel the power behind the divine classes?
Yes, it is your personal belief. No need for a collective religion at all.
Are these powers not personified, so that the believer 'thinks' there is a power beyond, like 'the Dragon below', or a path to harmony and peace through the 'path to light'?
Completely possible. The Oba's followers probably believe she is the power behind their spellcasting abilities, or miracles. When it's actually them. Although, whether they ever learn that is up to the DM.
How would the average population of Athas respond to such a faith?
In a variety of ways. If you insert it as something new, then it will be encountered as such. If you include it as something that's always been, then it will be considered a normal part of daily life. How does the average population of Gulg view the religion of the Oba? How does someone from Tyr view the religion in gulg?
Would the average population, hopeless and desperate to survive, not flock to a power that says "there is hope", "there is peace", "there is power".
Is every religion fit for everyone? Does everyone accept every religion? Why do people not practice every religion? Why do people choose the religion they believe in? These are questions without clear answers. In game terms, there would be many reasons why someone wouldn't want to join a religion. From upbringing to social reasons to simply not accepting what they don't know.
How would the SKs respond to this? Would they not feel completely threatened?
Exactly how they handle it now. What does nibenay do about the religion in gulg? What did Kalak do about the religion in urik? How do they view the elemental cults or the veneration of guardian spirits, primal spirits, nature or other groups that share a common belief and have paranormal powers? Does nibenay feel threatened by elemental cults (which are religions using the definition of the english word), how about the worship of another SK? Maybe they see them as the weak grasping for some comfort. Maybe they actively hunt religious members. Maybe it's just part of athas and beneath their concern.
Ultimately, it's up to the DM. What works best for the individual. I'm just saying that divine power has a way to be included in the setting that has nothing to do with the PoL method and it doesn't matter how divine magic worked in older editions since this isn't those editions. People should consider all the options before deciding not to include something. If for no other reason, than to not rob their players and themselves of very cool opportunities. Plus, you get to have templars with divine magic.
This seems like the best place to ask my question so I don't need to create a new thread. Was it ever published what Deity Abalach-Re claimed to serve? If so, what was it called? If not, was there ever any info on it at all? I'm aware that it was a lie, but I'm still in need of an answer. Thanks!
Yup. In the Veiled Alliance sourcebook, they gave some details about the deity Abalach-Re claimed to serve.
His name is Badna, a four-armed man in a long loincloth. There are countless small shrines, called "upubadna" all over the city. Each shrine has a stone sun with a grin upon it, on a wood pot with a prayer wheel. Those worshipping at the shrine spin the wheel, which has symbols all around it's edge which represent concepts such as charity, obedience, etc. Whatever symbol you get determines the prayer you are supposed to ad lib, and provide an offering to Badna.
I like the ideas presented in the books Duke, like the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host. They just don't have any place in my Dark Sun... I just think they go counter to too many of the critical themes of the setting (savagery, desperation, the infinite might of the SKs). The "bad guy" faiths, like the Blood of Vol, could seem appropriate enough for me - but they aren't great PC choices and would be poor choices for the mass population.
I got my hands on an Eberron campaign book, just to glance over the religions (I didn't want to read too much, in case the owner wishes to DM the game).
I like the ideas presented in the books Duke, like the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host. They just don't have any place in myDark Sun... I just think they go counter to too many of the critical themes of the setting (savagery, desperation, the infinite might of the SKs). The "bad guy" faiths, like the Blood of Vol, could seem appropriate enough for me - but they aren't great PC choices and would be poor choices for the mass population.
I didn't really mean to lift existing eberron religions and drop them as-is into darksun. I just meant to look at them as examples on how darksun religions could work and how faith can replace gods as a source of divine power. So the Dragon Below religion could reflect athasian religions of the desert. Where people worship drakes, for example. The spirits of the past could reflect athasian religions where people worship ancestral heroes, like some elves might worship the last elf king. (cor-whateverhisnameis)
Taking an eberron religion and trying to translate it, stock-as-is into darksun won't work. I knew this before ever suggesting the idea. Although the concepts DO work in my opinion.
Mechanically, of course, there are no problems using the divine classes. Maybe you want templars to be clerics and paladins and avengers. Divine classes could be great priests of fire or the sun or storms. They could be arcane, primal, or psionic easily. Maybe the divine characters are devil-worshippers hunted by the veiled alliance and sorcerer kings alike. Maybe you do want a story featuring a lone Invoker PC, who is the beacon of hope for the world. Maybe the whole party should be divine, able to freely act in the world now that one of the sorcerer kings has fallen. The general setting lacks divine classes because it lacks hope for a better world; let a PC be that hope if it makes a great story, or let a PC play the class he wants to and wash the hope out of it.
The removal of the divine power source isn't just about absent gods, its about the removal of hope. Dark Sun was originaly a bleak, harsh world where most of the people struggled simply to survive. Its a world shaped by racism and xenohobia. The majority of the population are slaves in city states. They toil for their mighty god-kings because at least they're safe. If people escape the slavery of the cities, they struggle each day survive against he harsh world. Comfort comes only through exploiting others. The existence of the divine power source, however, implies that your faith, devotion, and hope can lead to a better life in this world or salvation in the next. Faith, hope, sin, and salvation: these concepts are absent in the official dark sun setting.
You've made an error, IMO, by equating the divine power source with religion. They are not the same. There is no divine power source in the real world, yet religions exist, despite racism, xenophobia, rampant corruption, and exploitation of the poor. Hope and optimism exist as well, despite the absence of gods.
I would totally allow that Ravenloft/Domains of Dread is a setting where hope has been extinguished, but that's a different matter. Dark Sun loses believability (and much more) if you remove the prospect of something better, whether it be the promise of an afterlife, the possibility of freedom from slavery, the renewal of the ecosystem, or anything else.
You've made an error, IMO, by equating the divine power source with religion. They are not the same. There is no divine power source in the real world, yet religions exist, despite racism, xenophobia, rampant corruption, and exploitation of the poor. Hope and optimism exist as well, despite the absence of gods.
In a fantasy world, when there is tangible proof that gods answer prayers, there is quite a bit of oomph to the idea that there are gods. They excluded paladins from the original setting, since those divine champions of law and good weren't appropriate. They could have done clerics who got their power from nebulous forces of good, but opted for morally neutral elements. Divine classes all have clear ties to religion in a traditional D&D game.
I'm suggesting that tossing out the iconic D&D concept of the divine also goes along with a harsh and barren world. The old boxed sets give the impression that people have to make their own destiny alone, without the comfort of gods or the promise of salvation. Maybe hope isn't quite the right term, but I don't see much hope in the old material. At least not the hope of Clerics and Paladins.
* Yes, I see the irony.
I would totally allow that Ravenloft/Domains of Dread is a setting where hope has been extinguished, but that's a different matter. Dark Sun loses believability (and much more) if you remove the prospect of something better, whether it be the promise of an afterlife, the possibility of freedom from slavery, the renewal of the ecosystem, or anything else.
There's always the hope that the Sorcerer Kings are telling the truth - that their propaganda and their Templars are actually the salvation of the world. There might be some truth to the plethora of wives tales, myths and legends that old folk talk about - they talk about a world without Sorcerer Kings, with prosperity and of loss. There are psionics, the 'civilized' power that can dominate a savage beasts in its tracks, studying and meditating the Will and the Way can answer any questions and solve any problem. In some places, there is whispering that ancient spirits talk out of the air - they sing of sorrow and praise cryptic poems.
There are many ways to bring hope into a setting, such that you don't need to introduce Gods or the presence of another powerful being that might contest with the power of the SKs. That being said, I'm sure there are cults that manifest outside the law of the city-states devoted to some being... but I wouldn't expect it would be enough to manifest Divine power.
But Athas has never had gods, or clerics, or paladins. If the old boxed set de-emphasized the comfort of (faith-based) gods or the promise of salvation, then that's something I'm altering in my game. It just seems a little unrealistic* and unlikely.* Yes, I see the irony.
Well, the first boxed set left the history of Athas largely unspoken. There are ruins with idols of old gods, some of them even protected by ancient wraiths. From the original boxed set:
"Amid the barren wastelands of Athas lie the scattered city states, each in the grip of its own, tyrranical sorcerer-king. Protecting their own positions with dark magic, they demand absolute obedience. The restless mobs are placated with bread and circuses – the arenas overflow with spectators seeking release from their harsh lives."
This is the sort of prose that leads me to think that Athas is largely without hope, and that most people think of survival and freedom in this life, rather than the hereafter. I can imagine some great religion-based plots, but they would be the exception, rather than the norm. In the cities (where Sorcerer-Kings rule), the cult of the Elements are tolerated at best ,while the cult of the Spirit(s) of the Land are persecuted. The public religion is based on the Sorcerer-Kings. What people believe in private, or in close-knit communities far from the prying eyes of the templars, strange and interesting religions might thrive. I just don't see religions as common-place on Athas, whether or not one uses divine classes.
As for the afterlife, using the Oba as an example, those who worship the forest goddess could believe that when they die, their spirit joins hers or returns to the forest or something else entirely. While the fear is, those who "sin" against the Oba, end up eternally tormented by Nibenay. Their version of hell.
I see plenty of ways to incorporate religion and divine classes in darksun. Eberron's method really helps with that. Hell, some people will probably have gods in their darksun, thanks to the new Dawn war history, it's entirely possible.
As always, Nb4 torog ate my city-state and grants me divine power.
But Athas has never had gods, or clerics, or paladins. If the old boxed set de-emphasized the comfort of (faith-based) gods or the promise of salvation, then that's something I'm altering in my game. It just seems a little unrealistic* and unlikely.* Yes, I see the irony.
They did have clerics. It's just that athasian Clerics worshipped the elements with no religion attatched. It seemed to be described as more of a personal, spiritual connection to amoral forces.
And there were all sorts of religions, like Raam's, Gulg's, and Draj's. It was also implied that there were all sorts of other smaller religions and cults. In fact, in the Shattered Lands game, there is a battle going on in the sewers beneath Draj where a templar has converted part of a clan of Tari to worship Tectuktitlay, which is opposed by the original clan who worship psionic skulls that hold the memories of their ancestors.
Anyway, I don't think it is so much that they have de-emphasized relgion, more that religion takes on a different sort of shape on Athas. We don't have the widely recognizable religions that populate most campaign settings. Religion is something that is used by the SK's to maintain their power within their own City-States, or else it is a belief system held by small cults scattered across the Tyr region.
I think it would be a mistake to insert a typical D&D pantheon into Dark Sun, because 1) you are missing a great opportunity to tailor-make religions to fit whatever adventure you have in mind, and 2) An expansive pantheon threatens the Sorcerer-Kings in such a way that they would never have chosen that method of control- As it stands now, Tec only has to compete with the religions of Raam and Gulg, which isn't hard because they stay in their own city-states anyway, and all of the minor cults in his area, which would be foolish to try to stand against him. If Tec is only one (false) god among many widely worshipped gods, then this presents such a threat to his power that you would have to wonder why he even attempted it at all.
Personally, I like the way 4E is handling it. Even though I made a 3.5E Athasian Paladin, I will probably stick to the no divine power source rule in 4E. Even though, I still will have the elemental cults, and such still at play in my Dark Sun games. Since when do we need Clerics, Paladins, Avengers, Runepriests, etc. in order to have religions portrayed in a game world?
So characters that use the divine power source won't be available in dark sun? That eliminates a number of classes. It just feels like a bizarre decision on Wotc's part, to restricting options for players. Will that list have a side bar suggesting ways to adapt the divine power classes, couldn't the divine classes still exist in terms of mechanics but not in name?
Officially, they aren't there. Unofficially -- you can add them to your game if you want. It isn't like there is mechanically something preventing them, it just is flavor of the setting.
Officially, they aren't there. Unofficially -- you can add them to your game if you want. It isn't like there is mechanically something preventing them, it just is flavor of the setting.
Ironic as it seems, you will probably see MORE divine classes because of a decision like this. When TSR announced Drow were Evil only, then revealed that there existed a single Drow with conflicting alignment (Drizzt), a mob of players converted and started wanting to play a "Good" Drow.
Players love playing the exception to the rule character races and classes (makes them feel unique, I suppose). Divine classes will be that exception...
Officially, they aren't there. Unofficially -- you can add them to your game if you want. It isn't like there is mechanically something preventing them, it just is flavor of the setting.
Ironic as it seems, you will probably see MORE divine classes because of a decision like this. When TSR announced Drow were Evil only, then revealed that there existed a single Drow with conflicting alignment (Drizzt), a mob of players converted and started wanting to play a "Good" Drow.
Players love playing the exception to the rule character races and classes (makes them feel unique, I suppose). Divine classes will be that exception...
Only if the DM permits. Personally, I'd probably not permit divine classes. I really don't care if someone wants to be a special, unique Cleric wandering Athas.
exception: Someone from another world coming to Athas, and being a divine class. However, I'd rule that person has no access to divine powers (as well as that character's divine magic items have no power, etc), so it would still be a moot point. A hilarious and deadly discovery for that character, but still moot.
And therein lies the fundamental problem IMHO with WoTC decision to exclude divine power.
I don't really see it as a problem.
If a DM wants to allow a divine character, then that's fine. The DM can then work with the player to either "fix" the class so it is no longer divine, or make the character unique and then (more than likely) base the character around it.
Or they don't allow it, in which case it isn't as though the player is at any loss for choice.
Either way, its a win.
So characters that use the divine power source won't be available in dark sun? That eliminates a number of classes. It just feels like a bizarre decision on Wotc's part, to restricting options for players. Will that list have a side bar suggesting ways to adapt the divine power classes, couldn't the divine classes still exist in terms of mechanics but not in name?
They can probably cover it in generalities -- just reskin the power source somehow (left as an exercise for the reader), and do whatever they do with the fighter class to keep it in balance despite the relative lack of metal armor.
Only if the DM permits. Personally, I'd probably not permit divine classes. I really don't care if someone wants to be a special, unique Cleric wandering Athas.
exception: Someone from another world coming to Athas, and being a divine class. However, I'd rule that person has no access to divine powers (as well as that character's divine magic items have no power, etc), so it would still be a moot point. A hilarious and deadly discovery for that character, but still moot.
Given the way divine power is designed in 4e, you would be houseruling the way D&D works. Divine characters aren't shut out of their power source on Athas. They're not shut out of their powers if their god dies, you go figure.
Besides, the way 4e clerics and paladins work, they make perfect sense as SK templars.
The entire "you get an initiation ritual and then the power is yours and has nothing to do with your god" idea is absolutely Dark Sun. Integrating divine classes without breaking the setting will be even exceedingly easy.
You will see a lot of divine classes in DS because they make sense in 4e DS.
The only People on Athas believing in Gods are either fools or undead :D. The divine classes of Athas should be lunatics or undead who just believe (without the divine powers, maybe with some psi powers that "mimik" them).
That's assuming divine power works exactly like it does in the core PoL. I guess not too many people here play eberron.
I play Eberron, but I don't see how the way divine magic works in Eberron would hinder it working on Athas. If anything Eberron proves that divine power can work without gods, and that's before accounting the fact that ever since 2nd ed the DS lore went to quite a stretch to make divine power work without gods.
That's assuming divine power works exactly like it does in the core PoL. I guess not too many people here play eberron.
I play Eberron, but I don't see how the way divine magic works in Eberron would hinder it working on Athas. If anything Eberron proves that divine power can work without gods, and that's before accounting the fact that ever since 2nd ed the DS lore went to quite a stretch to make divine power work without gods.
I wasn't replying to your post (I forgot to quote). But we are in complete agreement on this. I'v been saying, over and over again, how faith is the way in for divine power in darksun. But people don't want divine power in darksun, even though it's always been there. I'v used eberron religions as examples on how DS religions could work and faith as the driving force behind divine spellcasting, instead of the PoL method.
The shaman will hopefully be getting a healer build, or a cleric will be missed by enough groups to homebrew in divine power, just for the cleric. My cleric in my dragonlance game is seriously overworked, but my DM isn't easy on us at all. We average 1 "dying" pc per encounter. And one of us got turned to stone by a medusa. But the DM let her off easy by saying it was an "until end of encounter" effect.
I probably won't be as hard on my players when I run darksun. (ok, I'm totally lying out of my ass on that one. I'm going to be brutal as hell and they better bring their best game)
In Dark Sun, a fantasy setting void of gods, religions and cults may evolve arround other powerful beings, raw elemental spirits, other primal spirits or even ancestral spirits. There may even be cults who worship demons and perhaps primordials. There are also cults arround sorcerer kings who control life and death for hundreds if not thousands of lives. In some a philosophy such as the will and the way, lead to self reliance and realization is a religion. Despite the focus of devotion and worship, it is in the needs of this life that religions are focused. At least that is my take on religion in Dark Sun.
.....
The shaman will hopefully be getting a healer build, or a cleric will be missed by enough groups to homebrew in divine power, just for the cleric. My cleric in my dragonlance game is seriously overworked, but my DM isn't easy on us at all. We average 1 "dying" pc per encounter. And one of us got turned to stone by a medusa. But the DM let her off easy by saying it was an "until end of encounter" effect.
I probably won't be as hard on my players when I run darksun. (ok, I'm totally lying out of my ass on that one. I'm going to be brutal as hell and they better bring their best game)
If theris no shaman healer build, then I plan to challenge our uber power gamer to develop an effective non divine healer out of one of the other leader classess. Keep it brutal. Keep it Dark Sun.
Or, if healing becomes a major problem, just homebrew a theme that grants a primal power identical to the cleric Healing Word power, and allows the player to take primal powers identical to select cleric powers that focus mainly on healing. Although wizards have never been healers, it wouldn't be totally thematically inappropriate for Jed- I mean preservers, either. The theme could be "life preserver" or something (... And if given the arcane keyword in addition to the primal keyword, could lead to some ironic uses of arcane defiling after level 6). ((... Actually, I really like that idea, I could see a mostly ranged party acting as hp batteries for the only melee defender, who the leader focuses most of his healing on.))
Although the ardent's Ardent Surge is honestly pretty much the same as Healing word, anyway. They don't have near the stuff cleric does, but when Psionic power comes out that may be fixed.
(Ah, right, Shamans do have something almost identical to healing word.)
Clerics have an at-will (Recovery strike) that restore actual HP provided they hit and the person being healed hits. Shamans can restore actual HP with the protector spirit's Spirit's Shield power, but that requires that you trigger opportunity attacks with your spirit companion, and then make an attack. While the cleric power requires a little more work, it can be used it pretty much any sitation (even if it means taking a swing at another party member). Cleric wins.
For temporary HP, clerics have an at-will that grants half level plus Cha modifier, Shamans can grant either their Con or Cha modifiers with at-wills. At level 1 that doesn't make a difference, but it does eventually put them ahead of the Shaman. Cleric wins.
For level 1 encounters, the cleric has healing strike, which lets a party member spend a healing surge. I can't find anything like that for the Shaman. Cleric wins.
For level 1 dailies, the cleric has beacon of hope, a power that restores 5 hp and makes the cleric's healing powers 5 hp more effective for the rest of the fight. The shaman does have spirit of healing flood, which does grant regen 2... While bloodied. A player can gain 10 hp, if they end the regen. The shaman's power wins if the group is in deep trouble, but the cleric's works if the group is prepared and knows this is gonna be a tough fight. I'm gonna call it a tie.
For level 2 utilities,
Cleric:
Angelic Witnesses: healing surges are boosted 4 HP
Cure Light Wounds: daily, recover HP as if you spent a healing surge.
Life transferance: daily, lets a target gain HP equal to twice your healing surge value
Return from death's door: daily, borderline resurrection
Sacrificial Aegis: daily, temporary HP equal to twice your healing surge value
Shaman:
Spirit of Life: like cure light wounds
Spirit's Sacrifice: encounter, gain Wis modifier temporary HP
The cleric has more options, and more powerful options.
Clerics are meant to be not just leaders, but specifically healers. Shamans can heal because they are leaders, but they cover more ground and don't cover healing as well.
But regardless of that, it makes for an interesting opportunity to construct different kinds of adventuring parties, if there is no divine spellcasting classes allowed in the campaign...
Another way to look at it is this: In the original 4E books, there effectively was a ban on Primal and Psionic classes (because they didn't exist). After the PHB2 came out, there was affectively still a ban on Psionic classes (again, because they didn't exist). It wasn't until the PHB3 came out, that there was the option for all of these power-sources. DS4 more or less will be the same kind of thing, just with divine classes, there is a "ban" because they "don't exist". And since it is possible to have healing provided through other leader-type classes, it doesn't completely cripple an adventuring party. Sure, it isn't the same as a cleric, and not even necessarily as good as a cleric, but there still is healing.
Granted, the party tanks (paladin and warlock) were a bit healing magic item heavy, but that's just what allowed us to get away with crap like having the paladin act as the target for the party wizard's fireball.
Or, if healing becomes a major problem, just homebrew a theme that grants a primal power identical to the cleric Healing Word power, and allows the player to take primal powers identical to select cleric powers that focus mainly on healing. Although wizards have never been healers, it wouldn't be totally thematically inappropriate for Jed- I mean preservers, either. The theme could be "life preserver" or something (... And if given the arcane keyword in addition to the primal keyword, could lead to some ironic uses of arcane defiling after level 6). ((... Actually, I really like that idea, I could see a mostly ranged party acting as hp batteries for the only melee defender, who the leader focuses most of his healing on.))
Although the ardent's Ardent Surge is honestly pretty much the same as Healing word, anyway. They don't have near the stuff cleric does, but when Psionic power comes out that may be fixed.
Both the artificer and bard are capable healers who use the arcane power source. Hence the possability of defiling healing magic, simply vampiric.
IIRC, in the previous campaign I played in (not DS), our party's cleric wasn't optimized for healing at any rate, and we did just fine (... a bit more than fine, actually, I believe we frustrated our DM a few times with our attitude of "yeah, let's camp anywhere we want and go burn down an entire orc village for beer money.")
Granted, the party tanks (paladin and warlock) were a bit healing magic item heavy, but that's just what allowed us to get away with crap like having the paladin act as the target for the party wizard's fireball.
I've seen the opposite as a Dm. One of us, is a dedicated power gamer and used the CB powered by the Divine Powers material and made the mechanically uber healer. It was then I relearned rules and strategies like '12 hours between extended rests' and 'press the action with more encounters per hour and attrition, burn healing surges burn. Unlike the rest of my gaming group, I believe the non divine leader classess can be effective healers if a player tries. Old paradigms die hard and linger.
Or, if healing becomes a major problem, just homebrew a theme that grants a primal power identical to the cleric Healing Word power, and allows the player to take primal powers identical to select cleric powers that focus mainly on healing. Although wizards have never been healers, it wouldn't be totally thematically inappropriate for Jed- I mean preservers, either. The theme could be "life preserver" or something (... And if given the arcane keyword in addition to the primal keyword, could lead to some ironic uses of arcane defiling after level 6). ((... Actually, I really like that idea, I could see a mostly ranged party acting as hp batteries for the only melee defender, who the leader focuses most of his healing on.))
Although the ardent's Ardent Surge is honestly pretty much the same as Healing word, anyway. They don't have near the stuff cleric does, but when Psionic power comes out that may be fixed.
Both the artificer and bard are capable healers who use the arcane power source. Hence the possability of defiling healing magic, simply vampiric.
*Imagines a bard on bagpipes*
True, they're there. But a theme would still allow non-divine leaders to make up the difference between them and clerics, or allow non-leaders to assist to cover the difference (like the warlock and my paladin did with our various healing magic items).
IIRC, in the previous campaign I played in (not DS), our party's cleric wasn't optimized for healing at any rate, and we did just fine (... a bit more than fine, actually, I believe we frustrated our DM a few times with our attitude of "yeah, let's camp anywhere we want and go burn down an entire orc village for beer money.")
Granted, the party tanks (paladin and warlock) were a bit healing magic item heavy, but that's just what allowed us to get away with crap like having the paladin act as the target for the party wizard's fireball.
I've seen the opposite as a Dm. One of us, is a dedicated power gamer and used the CB powered by the Divine Powers material and made the mechanically uber healer. It was then I relearned rules and strategies like '12 hours between extended rests' and 'press the action with more encounters per hour and attrition, burn healing surges burn. Unlike the rest of my gaming group, I believe the non divine leader classess can be effective healers if a player tries. Old paradigms die hard and linger.
We did camp whereever, not whenever, to be clear. And got attacked by dire bears. Which we had for breakfast. (Thing I love about 4e, characters don't have to be twinked out as long as they have balls). Yeah, the non-divine leaders should do fine (even if they can't specialize in healing near the extent clerics can), our cleric was about as well off as any other class I've looked at (haven't outright studied them).
Clerics are meant to be not just leaders, but specifically healers. Shamans can heal because they are leaders, but they cover more ground and don't cover healing as well.
Right yes. There just seemed to be the implication that a party would somehow suffer for having a shaman as its only leader. I just wanted to make sure that was clarified.
As far as THP goes, remember the Cleric grants Cha + 1/2 level to a single ally. A shaman will be granting Con to every ally adjacent to the spirit. Depending on party composition, blah blah blah.
Athas is such a desolate place that people are left with only one opinion: "Do, or do not! Don't waste time believing it will work, instead, use that time to make it work!"
Wait, what? What are you guys on about? Are we just trying to imply that a shaman can't heal as well as a cleric or what?
No need to imply, the cleric is the king of healing.
Right. I was confirming that as opposed to what appeared to be "the shaman doesn't heal."
I'd never say that. All leaders have some healing. But in my experience, other healers simply don't have the same capability as the cleric. It's entirely dependant upon the DM, honestly. I'v had games where our warlord kept us alive, but eventually we got wacked out cause the warlord just couldn't cut it. In other games with even tougher encounters, the party was just fine thanks to my badass cleric.
Darksun will probably have much tougher encounters considering all the factors, so other leader classes will need more healing powers and the shaman really needs a healer build. Even then, I doubt the shaman will fill the cleric's shoes unless they give the shaman the healer's lore class feature and some serious healing powers.
I'v been meaning to build different leaders in each tier to see what they offer, as I'v only played a cleric when picking from the leader role. I need to see first hand what the others can do.
A dead enemy doesn't deal damage, so there's no need for healing. An ally with lots of defense doesn't get hit, so there's no need for healing. A artillery enemy being forced to attack in melee doesn't deal much damage, so less need to heal. A defender is already really good at self-healing, so you don't need a healbot like Clerics.
Note... Clerics are not the best leaders because they heal.
Leaders are more than healing.
Very true, but healing is very important to some groups.
A dead enemy doesn't deal damage, so there's no need for healing.
No, but its living allies do deal damage.
An ally with lots of defense doesn't get hit, so there's no need for healing.
This is a good one! Oh, you were serious? Yeah, your super high AC doesn't mean much when the monsters target your will.
A artillery enemy being forced to attack in melee doesn't deal much damage, so less need to heal.
You gotta get through the front line to get to the artillery, which can leave your own backline exposed.
A defender is already really good at self-healing, so you don't need a healbot like Clerics.
Defenders, while capable of some "minor" healing, can get dropped pretty fast. Not all monsters target their highest defense and a defender being the only one left standing doesn't mean much to his allies.
Note... Clerics are not the best leaders because they heal.
Who said best leader? I don't think we can say who the best leader is considering it completely depends on the situation, but the best healers are clerics. Funny enough, clerics are pretty good at other things to!
- His living allies have one less ally among them.
- He said "defense," not "AC."
Also, one of my Paragon-tier Defenders has so much self-healing I literally have to tell my Leader to stop so I can use it.
Finally, in my completely anecdotal experience, I honestly think the Ardent gives the Cleric a run for its money. The amount of THP/surge-less healing/healing bonuses they hand out is downright redonkulous.
Finally, in my completely anecdotal experience, I honestly think the Ardent gives the Cleric a run for its money. The amount of THP/surge-less healing/healing bonuses they hand out is downright redonkulous.
- His living allies have one less ally among them.
- He said "defense," not "AC."
1. Yes, one less ally, yet one less doesn't stop damage from the remaining monsters. Considering monsters having one less ally doesn't stop pc death, healing is still important. 2. Examples. Replace AC with "highest defense" and replace Will with "lowest defense" and you'll get my meaning.
Also, one of my Paragon-tier Defenders has so much self-healing I literally have to tell my Leader to stop so I can use it.
I'll have to take your word for it, as I can't remember if defenders self heal as minor actions, after effects of attacks or if they have to waste a standard action in order to heal.
Finally, in my completely anecdotal experience, I honestly think the Ardent gives the Cleric a run for its money. The amount of THP/surge-less healing/healing bonuses they hand out is downright redonkulous.
Again, I'll have to take your word for it. I'v not seen the ardent in action and have not had time to really look over the psionic classes in detail.
I think Duke was joking with his comments. They all seemed a bit ridiculous to me...
Nope, 100% serious. It's what I'v experienced during games. Experiences may vary, but without a good healer, groups don't last very long in the groups I play in. Granted, my DMs are not easy on us. Often we go through 2-3 encounters without the ability to take a short rest. 5 minutes of peace and quiet in our games is a reward all by itself.
... Often we go through 2-3 encounters without the ability to take a short rest.
Wouldn't that just be one encounter of Hard++ difficulty?
WotC recommends combat last only 4-5 rounds inbetween rests. Peter Shaefer's unofficial (and small sample) studies show that players can get bored after only 4-5 rounds, but also, that combats are often times close to finishing at that point.
1. Yes, one less ally, yet one less doesn't stop damage from the remaining monsters. Considering monsters having one less ally doesn't stop pc death, healing is still important.
2. Examples. Replace AC with "highest defense" and replace Will with "lowest defense" and you'll get my meaning.
I don't have much to add. I'm not sure what is going on, but if your characters are taking so much damage that the party is running out of heal bombs, you're taking too much damage - and that's not because the DM if giving you hard combats. Your defender and controller are probably failing in their jobs. Your leader needs to help defend and control - and make sure that the defenders and controllers are properly working their roles.
1. Most combats are designed such that every monster (except minions) are important. When you take out a monster, you limit the effectiveness of the monster "team" and the scales become heavily tilted in the PCs favour. Combat is often times completely lopsided following the death of only one or two (non-minion) monsters. The same holds true for PC parties - the loss of a single role can oftentimes hamper the group's cohesiveness. This is why conditions can be so debilitating. Apply: "The best defense is a good offense".
2. I still have no idea what you're trying to argue here. If a character has a weak defense, the leader can help increase that defense. Either way, most defender powers increase ALL defenses... so it doesn't matter if it's Will or AC, a weak or excellent defense, a +2 bonus is still an increased miss chance of 10%. Either way, if you increase your defense even a small amount, most monsters will often times ignore you and attack somebody else (that's why Marking works) - a Power bonus to defense is more of a tactical move than a flat bonus.
1. Yes, one less ally, yet one less doesn't stop damage from the remaining monsters. Considering monsters having one less ally doesn't stop pc death, healing is still important.
The need for healing is decreased by the damage that monster makes, however.
2. Examples. Replace AC with "highest defense" and replace Will with "lowest defense" and you'll get my meaning.
Except that it has no relevance to the point. He said defenses. A character can optimize for defenses, and a smart player will, since the number of attacks vs. AC decreases substantially in Paragon and Epic. Not to mention that monster to-hit vs. the NADs... *snrk* ...are naturally lower than attacks vs. AC.