Non Metal weapons - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Non Metal weapons

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#42
Pennarin
May 31, 2010 1:11:21 I'm glad to see you guys haven't learned: Diggles threw the first insult, now this will be war. War between yourselves, of course; I'm just posting to point out the foolishness.
I'm so surprised by the turn of events...no, wait...this has been the way of all weapon materials threads since...oh, 2003.
Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers!
#43
jimsmaher
May 31, 2010 3:06:04
Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers!

I know my ego is as overripe as a summer squash. Let's cover the bases then:

Metal is rare on Athas. Virtually all weapons are non-metal there. Weaker materials suffering under the same stresses are more likely to break, given the same conditions. Wooden basball bats don't break as often as they used to, but are still more likely to break when slamming into a 100mph fastball than an aluminum model. And that's against a 5oz. projectile, not a slamming into another swinging baseball bat.

4E uses the d20 system, extolling the principles of large numbers being better than small numbers. It minimizes negative numbers and emphasizes bonuses. Adding weapon breakage and weaker-material damage rules flys in the face of this. Combat is already complex enough before amending the rules for every melee attack roll.

A melee attack could be any of a variety of scenarios for the same roll, depending on the exposition of the players and/or DM. A critical sword slash could be a well-timed hit on a softspot or gap in the enemies armor; it could be a powerful blow with much force; or the slightest nick, which opens up an artery; possibly the re-damaging of an old wound/recently healed broken bone; and so on.

The explanations of a natural 1, vary just the same. Not all versions of which resolve into the feasible possibility of a weapon breaking. Such breaking serves to limit explanatory options in one sense, as well as to forcefully punish the player during a play that is otherwise their turn to be victorious. It also presents the opportunity for further explanations of what exactly happened: "the weapon is now two not-quite-as-powerful weapons"; "a piece broke off inside the enemy causing lingering effects"; "half the club flew off over next to an ally who is short a weapon"; etc.

Losing a weapon, regardless of whether or not the player has a spare, can be disheartening and emascualting to a warrior who lives and dies by it.

Weapon Breakage rules apply to enemy attacks as well. Except that so many enemies in DS attack with claws and fangs and psionics. So, the balance is seemingly tipping away from the players' side and towards the monsters'.

Athas is a harsh environment. Weapon Breakage is another means to keep that paramount concept at the forefront of play. Yet, it can complicate the dynamics of the game to the point of learning curve failure. Some things are just too much trouble to bother with.

So, here's my skewed perspective then ...

Con: Complicated. Killjoy.
Pro: Fluff. Crunch.

#44
xlorep_darkhelm
May 31, 2010 10:56:35
Re: weight of obsidian weapons.

Keep in mind that a metal sword was tempered specifically for use as a sword. The metal in the tang (hilt) of the blade is denser and heavier to keep the point of balance of the overall sword closer to the crosspiece.

Obsidian can't be manipulated that finely. You've gotta take what you've got and chisel bits off. The overall weight of the sword may very well be lighter thn steel, but the balance will be off.

You dont make swords out of stone genius. You take a wooden frame and insert shards of obsidian

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl

But, according to many sources for Dark Sun, Urik's army has obsidian swords -- not makuahuitl.
#45
big_goon
May 31, 2010 12:00:11
Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers!

The Dark Sun has nothing on my Ego. Nothing!

This...

"Losing a weapon, regardless of whether or not the player has a spare, can be disheartening and emasculating to a warrior who lives and dies by it."

... is exactly the objective that the rule *should* encompass.

I personally don't play 4E because it's realistic. I play it because it's a game that emphasizes the themes of the setting. One of the main themes I love to emphasize: desperation.

"Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse... it does."

Dark Sun is about desperate people making desperate choices. Having your weapon destroyed because you rolled two 1s in a row (or two 20s) is just bad luck - but without context is means absolutely nothing. Most warriors will simply draw a second weapon and continue fighting without missing a step because "that's life". Having a complex rule that "sometimes" results in a desperate situation for the players adds too much overhead for a limited result.

Instead, a rule that qualifies only when the players are in a desperate situation makes more sense, right? When do players make desperate attacks? When they make daily attacks.

Just like the defiling rule, players can make an encounter-changing decision: when they miss on a daily attack, they can re-roll their attack at the cost of a friendly sacrifice. Weapon-wielders could be given a similar choice. I don't think it has to be about the material, whether it's metal, bone, flint or anything. It's about the warrior, and how the warrior gambled his weapon and his life.
#46
I_smile_alot
Jun 02, 2010 1:04:01 I have really enjoyed reading this thread. The jabs, the insults, the alt. game mech. suggestions, all just to funny. We take this game VERY seriously, and can get obsessive over so many details. We argue physics, history, editions, errata, consumables because they really matter to us. I thought this new/old rule was fun, it wouldn't apply very often because rolling 2 1's in succession is improbable, but when it did happen it would be an OMG roleplay moment, as well as possibly adding a side quest to obtain a better weapon. I also appreciated the limited application because freq. weapon breakage might add more verisimilitude, but would merely become irritating in terms of game play. I think Big_Goon has a very valid point, it's less about the weapon and more about the warrior and the desperate gamble that lead them to take that chance, and that's what makes for memorable game moments.
#47
xlorep_darkhelm
Jun 02, 2010 10:18:23
Dark Sun is about desperate people making desperate choices.

Somewhat. I use the survival aspects of Dark Sun to give new players a "culture shock", so to speak, as well as playing up the differences between Athas and other campaign settings (what, you mean the Halflings want to have us over for dinner?)... but then after a few sessions, that gets old. These are people, after all, who grew up in this monstrous and treacherous world, and see it as normal. The survival qualities then get downplayed a bit in my campaigns, as I begin to focus more on the political and societal aspects of Dark Sun, which to me, is the real meat of the setting -- evil, vindictive, and seemingly all-powerful entities in control of the last vestiges of civilization on this dying world. Races that really despise and loath each other being forced together out of necessity, and a slowly growing sense that the world is breathing its last gasp before it dies.

The concept of weapons breaking is a throwback to the 2E era of Dark Sun... something I thought was intriguing over a decade ago, but now I see it as merely a stalling tactic to use in a campaign (or something I'd throw in for new players, once again to make them more aware of how Athas is). But I believe there already are too many dice rolls and rules tied to them during combat to add even a single extra roll with another rule attached to it. Cinematic weapon breakage (like it breaking at a good point in the fight, rather than the luck of the die) is by and far a better choice for me.
#48
Nelyo
Jun 02, 2010 12:23:32
Leaving aside the lighter/heavier question, the problem with giving an additional attack bonus with non-metal materials is that it makes non-metal weapons better than metal weapons. Look at how very situational Power Attack is these days; hitting is much more important than a few extra points of damage, especially with all the special effects that 4e characters can inflict when hitting with encounter and daily powers. If I were playing in a game using the table from the first post, I would go for the bone weapon every single time, and simply carry spare weapons to guard against breakage (possibly even multiclassing with Assassin and using a Ki Focus to ensure that I have a consistent enhancement bonus).

Normally I'm not a fan of penalities on critical fail attack rolls, but for a Dark Sun campaign I think it does add a bit of useful flavor to reinforce the setting themes. I'd probably just use it in conjunction with Inherent Bonuses so that they players aren't suddenly missing a +4 bonus to attack and damage that they need to compete.
#49
flip
Jun 02, 2010 13:22:09 On the front of weapons breaking, and needing a consistant attack bonus ...

I point you to the DMG 2, page *mumble*. There's a section in there that talks about Inherent Bonuses ... which moves the +x to attack, or +y to defense from your gear to you. Very, very nice for a Dark Sun campaign.
#50
phoffman
Jun 04, 2010 19:26:41 I don't think there will be a need to adjust stone, flint, bone, iron and steel weapons on a proficiency or damage score. At least not on the character sheet.

The dungeon master has the power to make bone and stone less desirable than metal weapons not just through game mechanics but through the campaign. In Dark Sun metal wasn't just seen as a tool but often a status symbol.

In addition when a creature/npc is significant to the story or plot I would suggest introducing Damage resistance vs bone and stone (or perhaps a defense bonus of +1) on important creatures and npcs. a DR of 1 or 2 would be enough to encourage characters to seek out metal weapons.

Rarely would it be important to stress that metal is better in every combat. But if every major combat included a special npc then characters would find it easily to covet metal weapons.
#51
Axiomatic_Badger
Jun 07, 2010 14:21:22 I should note I have never played in Dark Sun, and thanks to my complete and utter lack of DnD-Playing friends I probably never will.

That said...

Breakable weapons is a poor mechanic. Either the character has one weapon, in which case loosing it removes him from the fight, or he has multiple weapons which completely negates the mechanic. There's no point to it.
It's nice to say it cultivates an air of desperation, but it really doesn't. Annoyance, maybe.
Desperation is running out of food your third week out and having to decide whether or not you eat your plucky comic relief.
Sure, having metal weapons adds to the atmosphere, but the same effect can be achieved by limiting metal to weapons from the superiour weapon catagory, or making material a funtion of an item's enhancement bonus, or saying all weapons are made from wood, glass ect. and having "Iron" a specific weapon enchantment along the lines of Mithril and Adamantine weapons. Or even just renaming "Adamantine Weapon" to "Iron Weapon".
#52
merchant_of_shadows
Jun 08, 2010 3:07:40 Breaking weapons might be poor mechanic, but its implementation in DS:4E is pretty well done. Weapons don't break at the whim of the die. If it will annoy you - you have the option to choose for your weapons never to risk breaking. But it also adds very climatic options (although it does require inherent bonuses to be used).

If you are fighting armed enemies you can choose to break your mace at their leader's head a)because its fun b)because you will probably kill him and pick his morningstar c)because your friends might kill him and you can pick his morningstar d)you can just waste a minion and grab a rusty dagger from his cold hands withou being too uneffective with it e)if all else fail, you can grab an improvised weapon and still finish the fight.

On the other hand - if this is your first attack in an encounter with wild animals and there are no improvised weapons to be found in sight - you can just choose NOT to loose your weapon, since loosing it will make the rest of the encounter pretty dull for you.
#53
Dellkane
Jun 08, 2010 9:05:05 The weapon breaking rules are brilliant on an absolutely epic level.
#54
FlashbackJon
Jun 08, 2010 9:55:49
Freaking munchkins, "boo rolling, we want opto-supreme-cheat!"

Stormwind Fallacy, sir. You have officially lost the thread.

Breaking weapons does not add anything valuable to the game or the setting. It's designed to infuriate players and nothing more. Any weapon breaking rules added to 4E Dark Sun were merely an appeasement for the old school "change is bad" players. That is not to say that they cannot be implemented well (I have yet to see them but I generally trust the designers), only that the concept itself is flawed.
#55
Dellkane
Jun 08, 2010 10:43:28
Freaking munchkins, "boo rolling, we want opto-supreme-cheat!"

Stormwind Fallacy, sir. You have officially lost the thread.

Breaking weapons does not add anything valuable to the game or the setting. It's designed to infuriate players and nothing more. Any weapon breaking rules added to 4E Dark Sun were merely an appeasement for the old school "change is bad" players. That is not to say that they cannot be implemented well (I have yet to see them but I generally trust the designers), only that the concept itself is flawed.

You're stating your extremely subjective opinion as an objective fact.

My players loved the element of uncertainity that weapon breaking rules added. However, the old rules were putting too much enfasis on the element of randomness.

The "if you roll 1 you can attack again but your weapon may break" rule is fantastic because it preserves the full effect of the lore but leaves the choice in the hands of the players. They're free to run the game never having to care for weapon breaking, or they can flavour the setting by having all those Darksun moments we know and love.

You turn:

DM: "The half giant gladiator blocks your attack with his bladed gauntlet, and the blade breaks."

into:

DM: "The half giant gladiator blocks your attack with his bladed gauntlet, and the blade gets stuck into the obsidian plating. What do you do?"
Player: "I let go of the hilt, reverse the grip and slide it free"
or
Player: "I put my weight on the hilt, snapping the bone blade in half, and mash the guy in the face with the pommel, before throwing the hilt away".

Add some creative rules on improvised weapons ("Any broken weapon can be used as an improvised weapon for 2 rounds before it becomes unusuable" or even "a broken heavy blade can be used as a small blade of similar quality" etc) and you have solid gold poured into your games.

Your players will never have to touch the rules unless they want to.

#56
Dragoloth
Jun 08, 2010 22:26:09
Dellkane, your post is made of win. I couldn't have said it better, or as well, myself.
#57
Cyber-Dave
Jun 08, 2010 23:05:44
The weapon breaking rules are brilliant on an absolutely epic level.

They really are. So, so, so, sooooo good! I love what the designers have done with them.
#58
DoctorBadWolf
Jun 09, 2010 4:39:49 Competently made steel weapons are (generally) going to be much better balanced than, for instance, obsidian weapons. Better balance directly translates to haveing an easier time hitting with it. Also, very few steel weapons are heavy, as such. A few months of training with a steel longsword(particularly the variety that is mostly one handed, with a noticable distal taper), and it feels as light and fast in your hand is it could ever need to be.

Slightly heavier, but much better balanced beats out slightly lighter but less well balanced, in terms of accuracy, pretty much every time.
#59
Zackmack75
Jun 09, 2010 10:19:42 Update from next session:

So we played the other night. The Mul Stormwarden once again in the middle of the climactic battle rolled a 1. He passed his save this time so his weapon did not break. Instead, I described that the attacker was ready for him and parried his attack as normal. On his next attack, he rolled a 1 again. This time he failed the save so his weapon is out for the encounter. They were fighting an owlbear which I described as having bit his hammer and severed the thongs holding on the stone hammer. This got everyone joking that his new name should be Thoradin Brokenhammer. This got everyone riled up in the climax. The player actually likes the name and is going with it. All the more fun for roleplaying.

So there were 4 encounters that night. A broken weapon only happened once the entire time. The rest of the battle was normal.

I'm still using my rules as previously posted until I see the rules in the DS book in Aug.

They're working awesome with minimal worry or complexity.

#60
scribble
Jun 09, 2010 10:48:45
Competently made steel weapons are (generally) going to be much better balanced than, for instance, obsidian weapons. Better balance directly translates to haveing an easier time hitting with it. Also, very few steel weapons are heavy, as such. A few months of training with a steel longsword(particularly the variety that is mostly one handed, with a noticable distal taper), and it feels as light and fast in your hand is it could ever need to be.

Slightly heavier, but much better balanced beats out slightly lighter but less well balanced, in terms of accuracy, pretty much every time.

It's times and situations like this where I think the old adage "Ignorance is bliss" comes into effect.

The more advanced knowledge of a subject you throw at a game the more cumbersome and confusing it becomes (in my opinion) as you point out all the spots the game world diverges from real-world physics.

At some point I say, even if you know better, you have to ask- is it cool to have my guy do X? If the answer is yes, then real-world logic need not apply.

#61
Zackmack75
Jun 09, 2010 13:01:59 I didn't see it stated anywhere specifically in this thread, so I thought I'd post it. This is the official rule that's in the DS book:

Weapons of Inferior Materials
Metal is so scarce on Athas that most armaments are made of bone, wood, or stone. These substances are weaker than metal and fracture more easily. A broken weapon is at best an improvised weapon. Damaged magic weapons loose their enhancements, properties, and powers until repaired. The following option simulates the relative fragility of nonmetal weapons, making combat more unpredictable and exciting.

Reckless Breakage: When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, your weapon has a chance to break. You can accept the result, automatically missing the attack as usual, but keeping your weapon intact. Alternatively, you can reroll. Regardless of the reroll result, a nonmetal weapon breaks once the attack is complete. A metal weapon breaks only if you roll a natural 5 or lower on the reroll. This rule gives you a say in whether a weapon breaks. You can play it safe and except the errant attack, or you can attempt to avoid a miss by risking your weapon.

I'm going to send this along to my players and they can decide if they like this rule better than my inhouse rule. I'll go with whatever they prefer. I like the DS rule as it leads to a very cinematic moment in the game without having to go nuts over the details.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#42 Pennarin May 31, 2010 1:11:21	I'm glad to see you guys haven't learned: Diggles threw the first insult, now this will be war. War between yourselves, of course; I'm just posting to point out the foolishness. I'm so surprised by the turn of events...no, wait...this has been the way of all weapon materials threads since...oh, 2003. Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers!
#43 jimsmaher May 31, 2010 3:06:04	Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers! I know my ego is as overripe as a summer squash. Let's cover the bases then: Metal is rare on Athas. Virtually all weapons are non-metal there. Weaker materials suffering under the same stresses are more likely to break, given the same conditions. Wooden basball bats don't break as often as they used to, but are still more likely to break when slamming into a 100mph fastball than an aluminum model. And that's against a 5oz. projectile, not a slamming into another swinging baseball bat. 4E uses the d20 system, extolling the principles of large numbers being better than small numbers. It minimizes negative numbers and emphasizes bonuses. Adding weapon breakage and weaker-material damage rules flys in the face of this. Combat is already complex enough before amending the rules for every melee attack roll. A melee attack could be any of a variety of scenarios for the same roll, depending on the exposition of the players and/or DM. A critical sword slash could be a well-timed hit on a softspot or gap in the enemies armor; it could be a powerful blow with much force; or the slightest nick, which opens up an artery; possibly the re-damaging of an old wound/recently healed broken bone; and so on. The explanations of a natural 1, vary just the same. Not all versions of which resolve into the feasible possibility of a weapon breaking. Such breaking serves to limit explanatory options in one sense, as well as to forcefully punish the player during a play that is otherwise their turn to be victorious. It also presents the opportunity for further explanations of what exactly happened: "the weapon is now two not-quite-as-powerful weapons"; "a piece broke off inside the enemy causing lingering effects"; "half the club flew off over next to an ally who is short a weapon"; etc. Losing a weapon, regardless of whether or not the player has a spare, can be disheartening and emascualting to a warrior who lives and dies by it. Weapon Breakage rules apply to enemy attacks as well. Except that so many enemies in DS attack with claws and fangs and psionics. So, the balance is seemingly tipping away from the players' side and towards the monsters'. Athas is a harsh environment. Weapon Breakage is another means to keep that paramount concept at the forefront of play. Yet, it can complicate the dynamics of the game to the point of learning curve failure. Some things are just too much trouble to bother with. So, here's my skewed perspective then ... Con: Complicated. Killjoy. Pro: Fluff. Crunch.
#44 xlorep_darkhelm May 31, 2010 10:56:35	Re: weight of obsidian weapons. Keep in mind that a metal sword was tempered specifically for use as a sword. The metal in the tang (hilt) of the blade is denser and heavier to keep the point of balance of the overall sword closer to the crosspiece. Obsidian can't be manipulated that finely. You've gotta take what you've got and chisel bits off. The overall weight of the sword may very well be lighter thn steel, but the balance will be off. You dont make swords out of stone genius. You take a wooden frame and insert shards of obsidian en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl But, according to many sources for Dark Sun, Urik's army has obsidian swords -- not makuahuitl.
#45 big_goon May 31, 2010 12:00:11	Maybe the thread will die out before the bruising of egos can begin. Let's cross our fingers! The Dark Sun has nothing on my Ego. Nothing! This... "Losing a weapon, regardless of whether or not the player has a spare, can be disheartening and emasculating to a warrior who lives and dies by it." ... is exactly the objective that the rule should encompass. I personally don't play 4E because it's realistic. I play it because it's a game that emphasizes the themes of the setting. One of the main themes I love to emphasize: desperation. "Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse... it does." Dark Sun is about desperate people making desperate choices. Having your weapon destroyed because you rolled two 1s in a row (or two 20s) is just bad luck - but without context is means absolutely nothing. Most warriors will simply draw a second weapon and continue fighting without missing a step because "that's life". Having a complex rule that "sometimes" results in a desperate situation for the players adds too much overhead for a limited result. Instead, a rule that qualifies only when the players are in a desperate situation makes more sense, right? When do players make desperate attacks? When they make daily attacks. Just like the defiling rule, players can make an encounter-changing decision: when they miss on a daily attack, they can re-roll their attack at the cost of a friendly sacrifice. Weapon-wielders could be given a similar choice. I don't think it has to be about the material, whether it's metal, bone, flint or anything. It's about the warrior, and how the warrior gambled his weapon and his life.
#46 I_smile_alot Jun 02, 2010 1:04:01	I have really enjoyed reading this thread. The jabs, the insults, the alt. game mech. suggestions, all just to funny. We take this game VERY seriously, and can get obsessive over so many details. We argue physics, history, editions, errata, consumables because they really matter to us. I thought this new/old rule was fun, it wouldn't apply very often because rolling 2 1's in succession is improbable, but when it did happen it would be an OMG roleplay moment, as well as possibly adding a side quest to obtain a better weapon. I also appreciated the limited application because freq. weapon breakage might add more verisimilitude, but would merely become irritating in terms of game play. I think Big_Goon has a very valid point, it's less about the weapon and more about the warrior and the desperate gamble that lead them to take that chance, and that's what makes for memorable game moments.
#47 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 02, 2010 10:18:23	Dark Sun is about desperate people making desperate choices. Somewhat. I use the survival aspects of Dark Sun to give new players a "culture shock", so to speak, as well as playing up the differences between Athas and other campaign settings (what, you mean the Halflings want to have us over for dinner?)... but then after a few sessions, that gets old. These are people, after all, who grew up in this monstrous and treacherous world, and see it as normal. The survival qualities then get downplayed a bit in my campaigns, as I begin to focus more on the political and societal aspects of Dark Sun, which to me, is the real meat of the setting -- evil, vindictive, and seemingly all-powerful entities in control of the last vestiges of civilization on this dying world. Races that really despise and loath each other being forced together out of necessity, and a slowly growing sense that the world is breathing its last gasp before it dies. The concept of weapons breaking is a throwback to the 2E era of Dark Sun... something I thought was intriguing over a decade ago, but now I see it as merely a stalling tactic to use in a campaign (or something I'd throw in for new players, once again to make them more aware of how Athas is). But I believe there already are too many dice rolls and rules tied to them during combat to add even a single extra roll with another rule attached to it. Cinematic weapon breakage (like it breaking at a good point in the fight, rather than the luck of the die) is by and far a better choice for me.
#48 Nelyo Jun 02, 2010 12:23:32	Leaving aside the lighter/heavier question, the problem with giving an additional attack bonus with non-metal materials is that it makes non-metal weapons better than metal weapons. Look at how very situational Power Attack is these days; hitting is much more important than a few extra points of damage, especially with all the special effects that 4e characters can inflict when hitting with encounter and daily powers. If I were playing in a game using the table from the first post, I would go for the bone weapon every single time, and simply carry spare weapons to guard against breakage (possibly even multiclassing with Assassin and using a Ki Focus to ensure that I have a consistent enhancement bonus). Normally I'm not a fan of penalities on critical fail attack rolls, but for a Dark Sun campaign I think it does add a bit of useful flavor to reinforce the setting themes. I'd probably just use it in conjunction with Inherent Bonuses so that they players aren't suddenly missing a +4 bonus to attack and damage that they need to compete.
#49 flip Jun 02, 2010 13:22:09	On the front of weapons breaking, and needing a consistant attack bonus ... I point you to the DMG 2, page mumble. There's a section in there that talks about Inherent Bonuses ... which moves the +x to attack, or +y to defense from your gear to you. Very, very nice for a Dark Sun campaign.
#50 phoffman Jun 04, 2010 19:26:41	I don't think there will be a need to adjust stone, flint, bone, iron and steel weapons on a proficiency or damage score. At least not on the character sheet. The dungeon master has the power to make bone and stone less desirable than metal weapons not just through game mechanics but through the campaign. In Dark Sun metal wasn't just seen as a tool but often a status symbol. In addition when a creature/npc is significant to the story or plot I would suggest introducing Damage resistance vs bone and stone (or perhaps a defense bonus of +1) on important creatures and npcs. a DR of 1 or 2 would be enough to encourage characters to seek out metal weapons. Rarely would it be important to stress that metal is better in every combat. But if every major combat included a special npc then characters would find it easily to covet metal weapons.
#51 Axiomatic_Badger Jun 07, 2010 14:21:22	I should note I have never played in Dark Sun, and thanks to my complete and utter lack of DnD-Playing friends I probably never will. That said... Breakable weapons is a poor mechanic. Either the character has one weapon, in which case loosing it removes him from the fight, or he has multiple weapons which completely negates the mechanic. There's no point to it. It's nice to say it cultivates an air of desperation, but it really doesn't. Annoyance, maybe. Desperation is running out of food your third week out and having to decide whether or not you eat your plucky comic relief. Sure, having metal weapons adds to the atmosphere, but the same effect can be achieved by limiting metal to weapons from the superiour weapon catagory, or making material a funtion of an item's enhancement bonus, or saying all weapons are made from wood, glass ect. and having "Iron" a specific weapon enchantment along the lines of Mithril and Adamantine weapons. Or even just renaming "Adamantine Weapon" to "Iron Weapon".
#52 merchant_of_shadows Jun 08, 2010 3:07:40	Breaking weapons might be poor mechanic, but its implementation in DS:4E is pretty well done. Weapons don't break at the whim of the die. If it will annoy you - you have the option to choose for your weapons never to risk breaking. But it also adds very climatic options (although it does require inherent bonuses to be used). If you are fighting armed enemies you can choose to break your mace at their leader's head a)because its fun b)because you will probably kill him and pick his morningstar c)because your friends might kill him and you can pick his morningstar d)you can just waste a minion and grab a rusty dagger from his cold hands withou being too uneffective with it e)if all else fail, you can grab an improvised weapon and still finish the fight. On the other hand - if this is your first attack in an encounter with wild animals and there are no improvised weapons to be found in sight - you can just choose NOT to loose your weapon, since loosing it will make the rest of the encounter pretty dull for you.
#53 Dellkane Jun 08, 2010 9:05:05	The weapon breaking rules are brilliant on an absolutely epic level.
#54 FlashbackJon Jun 08, 2010 9:55:49	Freaking munchkins, "boo rolling, we want opto-supreme-cheat!" Stormwind Fallacy, sir. You have officially lost the thread. Breaking weapons does not add anything valuable to the game or the setting. It's designed to infuriate players and nothing more. Any weapon breaking rules added to 4E Dark Sun were merely an appeasement for the old school "change is bad" players. That is not to say that they cannot be implemented well (I have yet to see them but I generally trust the designers), only that the concept itself is flawed.
#55 Dellkane Jun 08, 2010 10:43:28	Freaking munchkins, "boo rolling, we want opto-supreme-cheat!" Stormwind Fallacy, sir. You have officially lost the thread. Breaking weapons does not add anything valuable to the game or the setting. It's designed to infuriate players and nothing more. Any weapon breaking rules added to 4E Dark Sun were merely an appeasement for the old school "change is bad" players. That is not to say that they cannot be implemented well (I have yet to see them but I generally trust the designers), only that the concept itself is flawed. You're stating your extremely subjective opinion as an objective fact. My players loved the element of uncertainity that weapon breaking rules added. However, the old rules were putting too much enfasis on the element of randomness. The "if you roll 1 you can attack again but your weapon may break" rule is fantastic because it preserves the full effect of the lore but leaves the choice in the hands of the players. They're free to run the game never having to care for weapon breaking, or they can flavour the setting by having all those Darksun moments we know and love. You turn: DM: "The half giant gladiator blocks your attack with his bladed gauntlet, and the blade breaks." into: DM: "The half giant gladiator blocks your attack with his bladed gauntlet, and the blade gets stuck into the obsidian plating. What do you do?" Player: "I let go of the hilt, reverse the grip and slide it free" or Player: "I put my weight on the hilt, snapping the bone blade in half, and mash the guy in the face with the pommel, before throwing the hilt away". Add some creative rules on improvised weapons ("Any broken weapon can be used as an improvised weapon for 2 rounds before it becomes unusuable" or even "a broken heavy blade can be used as a small blade of similar quality" etc) and you have solid gold poured into your games. Your players will never have to touch the rules unless they want to.
#56 Dragoloth Jun 08, 2010 22:26:09	Dellkane, your post is made of win. I couldn't have said it better, or as well, myself.
#57 Cyber-Dave Jun 08, 2010 23:05:44	The weapon breaking rules are brilliant on an absolutely epic level. They really are. So, so, so, sooooo good! I love what the designers have done with them.
#58 DoctorBadWolf Jun 09, 2010 4:39:49	Competently made steel weapons are (generally) going to be much better balanced than, for instance, obsidian weapons. Better balance directly translates to haveing an easier time hitting with it. Also, very few steel weapons are heavy, as such. A few months of training with a steel longsword(particularly the variety that is mostly one handed, with a noticable distal taper), and it feels as light and fast in your hand is it could ever need to be. Slightly heavier, but much better balanced beats out slightly lighter but less well balanced, in terms of accuracy, pretty much every time.
#59 Zackmack75 Jun 09, 2010 10:19:42	Update from next session: So we played the other night. The Mul Stormwarden once again in the middle of the climactic battle rolled a 1. He passed his save this time so his weapon did not break. Instead, I described that the attacker was ready for him and parried his attack as normal. On his next attack, he rolled a 1 again. This time he failed the save so his weapon is out for the encounter. They were fighting an owlbear which I described as having bit his hammer and severed the thongs holding on the stone hammer. This got everyone joking that his new name should be Thoradin Brokenhammer. This got everyone riled up in the climax. The player actually likes the name and is going with it. All the more fun for roleplaying. So there were 4 encounters that night. A broken weapon only happened once the entire time. The rest of the battle was normal. I'm still using my rules as previously posted until I see the rules in the DS book in Aug. They're working awesome with minimal worry or complexity.
#60 scribble Jun 09, 2010 10:48:45	Competently made steel weapons are (generally) going to be much better balanced than, for instance, obsidian weapons. Better balance directly translates to haveing an easier time hitting with it. Also, very few steel weapons are heavy, as such. A few months of training with a steel longsword(particularly the variety that is mostly one handed, with a noticable distal taper), and it feels as light and fast in your hand is it could ever need to be. Slightly heavier, but much better balanced beats out slightly lighter but less well balanced, in terms of accuracy, pretty much every time. It's times and situations like this where I think the old adage "Ignorance is bliss" comes into effect. The more advanced knowledge of a subject you throw at a game the more cumbersome and confusing it becomes (in my opinion) as you point out all the spots the game world diverges from real-world physics. At some point I say, even if you know better, you have to ask- is it cool to have my guy do X? If the answer is yes, then real-world logic need not apply.
#61 Zackmack75 Jun 09, 2010 13:01:59	I didn't see it stated anywhere specifically in this thread, so I thought I'd post it. This is the official rule that's in the DS book: Weapons of Inferior Materials Metal is so scarce on Athas that most armaments are made of bone, wood, or stone. These substances are weaker than metal and fracture more easily. A broken weapon is at best an improvised weapon. Damaged magic weapons loose their enhancements, properties, and powers until repaired. The following option simulates the relative fragility of nonmetal weapons, making combat more unpredictable and exciting. Reckless Breakage: When you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, your weapon has a chance to break. You can accept the result, automatically missing the attack as usual, but keeping your weapon intact. Alternatively, you can reroll. Regardless of the reroll result, a nonmetal weapon breaks once the attack is complete. A metal weapon breaks only if you roll a natural 5 or lower on the reroll. This rule gives you a say in whether a weapon breaks. You can play it safe and except the errant attack, or you can attempt to avoid a miss by risking your weapon. I'm going to send this along to my players and they can decide if they like this rule better than my inhouse rule. I'll go with whatever they prefer. I like the DS rule as it leads to a very cinematic moment in the game without having to go nuts over the details.