makes sense, they were in Dark Sun before (demons that is) though to a limited extent
and having nutcase cults of them, in such an apocalyptic setting also makes sense
(remembe r, demons are out to destory EVERYTHING, ruin it..., like, Athas...)
and It states that Primordials defeated the gods long ago. which gives a backstory, or possible one
(still going wiht mine but it's cool, Athas was always very elemental based)
also Ssurans are lizardmen, which again makes sense 
In 4e cosmology, demons came about because part of the elemental chaos became twisted into the abyss, thanks in part to a chunk of the far realms getting stuck there. The god Tharizdun was responsible for this in the default PoL, but they were originally planning for the abyss being the part of the elemental chaos that's just a little too close to the far realms.
Huh? I must have missed something. What connection does the seed of evil have to the far realm and where has that been written?(honestly curious) As far as I can tell, the abyss was created before the gate to the far realm was opened. I'v been working on a PoL timeline and have been reading through every 4e book for information, some of which is contradictory. I'v yet to come across anything that links the far realm to the seed of evil. (abyss)
makes sense, they were in Dark Sun before (demons that is) though to a limited extent
and having nutcase cults of them, in such an apocalyptic setting also makes sense
(remembe r, demons are out to destory EVERYTHING, ruin it..., like, Athas...)
and It states that Primordials defeated the gods long ago. which gives a backstory, or possible one
(still going wiht mine but it's cool, Athas was always very elemental based)
also Ssurans are lizardmen, which again makes sense
So... the official history is that the gods were defeated by the primordials... Is this isolated to encounters or will this be the official stand point? I'v got mixed feelings about this.
For a 4e product that has to mention everything and anything there is from existing products (in case somebody wants to use it) and how it fits in the setting...I'd say this is pretty sedate.
I'll stop the questions here, as they're just examples.
This also leads to the "well some gods could have survived and just be hiding so darksun could have gods no one knows about".
I can't wait to see this adventure for myself as I really dislike second hand info (unreliable due to mistakes, misunderstandings), but I'm unwilling to ride the bus for 3+ hours just to play DS encounters.
A single line of Bloodsand Arena describes what you're referring to: Instead of true deities, Athasians worship sorcerer-kings, cults of demons or primordials, or primal spirits.
For a 4e product that has to mention everything and anything there is from existing products (in case somebody wants to use it) and how it fits in the setting...I'd say this is pretty sedate.
This is helpful, thanks for clearing that up. Still want to see the adventure though.
In 4e cosmology, demons came about because part of the elemental chaos became twisted into the abyss, thanks in part to a chunk of the far realms getting stuck there. The god Tharizdun was responsible for this in the default PoL, but they were originally planning for the abyss being the part of the elemental chaos that's just a little too close to the far realms.
Huh? I must have missed something. What connection does the seed of evil have to the far realm and where has that been written?(honestly curious) As far as I can tell, the abyss was created before the gate to the far realm was opened. I'v been working on a PoL timeline and have been reading through every 4e book for information, some of which is contradictory. I'v yet to come across anything that links the far realm to the seed of evil. (abyss)
How could the Unknown god that messed with the living gate not be Tharizdun?
OK, dug up Worlds and Monsters, thought it was in there, but I may have seen it in an interview on ENworld before either the PHB or the manual of the planes was out. Still trying to find the Races and Classes preview book. I'll try to search the ENworld archives for the interview, but I'm a little busy on Wikipedia (article was tagged for deletion because the subject wasn't notable, we have guidelines to determine notability, author went on for a while about how it's only because he's a satanist, lied about it on a social networking site, and now we have a bunch of idiots coming screaming "censorship and persecution! wut do yuu meen gidelines? i like it so its notabel!")
The unnamed god could been quite a few possibilities. (except torog as he was already confined to the underdark at that time)
I'v considered the primal spirits, but it doesn't make sense. They can drive off gods and primordials but they can't stop Rajaat and his defiler champions.... Too many holes in that explanation. I understand it could be used as an engine to progress the story, but it sounds like something you'd find in homebrew&houserule and not something you'd pay wotc to come up with.
Might just be me.
Maybe the primal spirits can't hold the onslaught of the primordials and deal with the Rajaat at the same time.
both say much the same though.1) Rajaat/Cleansing Wars are *NOT* part of 4th ed Dark Sun, thank goodness!! me and a majority of fans hate the bloody official timeline/metaplot, ick! Designers admit it ruined the feel of the setting.
4th ed resets the game right back to the first boxed set, but Kalak has been over thrown.
You can thus use whatever backstory you wish for your games, going with official, or, personal history.
This keeps the mystery and eerieness of Athas intact
last thing such a setting needs, is for it to be screwed up like the "Un-Forgotten" Realms was, sigh!
2) Having the Priordials "win" and ruin Athas, is fine in keeping with basic 4th ed lore. Barley kpet at bay by the weakened primal spirits, weakened by idiot defilers' greedy destruction, makes sense.
3) since the elements are such a major part of Athas, always have been, and demons are now elemental linked, having them, as agents of ruin and destruction, makes good sense, too.
Dark Sun, IMHO works a lot better with 4th ed.
The fold out map is very good for gneric arena fights!
Try Ebay to get a copy, it's how I got it. disability prevents me getting to game shops much nowadays, alas.
Silverblade, wtf?
Rajaat being gone would like the "small" detail of explaining exactly what SK are and how they got there and who Borys is and how he got like that and how the planet got in that shape...
I'll wait to get the book in my hands, but Rajaat isn't something you can remove easily. You have to redo the cosmology from scratch because he's the "genesis" of the setting.
1) Rajaat/Cleansing Wars are *NOT* part of 4th ed Dark Sun, thank goodness!! me and a majority of fans hate the bloody official timeline/metaplot, ick! Designers admit it ruined the feel of the setting.
1. Who wrote the adventure and are we sure it's "official" 4e DS lore?
2. I and EVERY 2e DS fan I'v ever known must not be in the majority, as we all loved the cleansing war/Rajaat story.
3. Designers are just people in a better position than the fans and like fans, not always correct.
2) Having the Priordials "win" and ruin Athas, is fine in keeping with basic 4th ed lore. Barley kpet at bay by the weakened primal spirits, weakened by idiot defilers' greedy destruction, makes sense.
*KNEE JERK REACTION ALERT!!!*
Awesome, so they killed darksun and replaced it with a 4e desert setting, now I at least know what to expect.
/end fanrage.
*Reasonable Reaction*
I'll wait til I read the book myself.
Tying magic to the biosphere of Athas (to keep it perpetual for some anti-primordial "insert_plot_device_here") could be a byproduct of that act. If only they knew what the populace was capable of to get at that magic.
And GM's have always had rule zero for anything in their games. If you don't like it... it is not in your game.
Now resetting the time means that the deaths of the other SK's and Borys are up in the air entirely though, which I think is great. And all the Dark Sun players I know loved discovering the history of Athas... or at least what little parts they thought they learned.
As to who stopped the primordials after they won in Athas, well it does not say when it happened... here is an idea. The Rhulisti legend has things about them changing the sun to cure the brown plague. What if that was after the war and they sealed off the world with the pristine tower? (It seems to be some kind of link to the far realm from its effects maybe, which makes the lifeshaping of the rhulisti even more interesting.)
2. I and EVERY 2e DS fan I'v ever known must not be in the majority, as we all loved the cleansing war/Rajaat story.
Really? EVERY DS fan you've ever known LOVED the Cleansing Wars and all that? You've been around these boards for a long time...so even, say, myself? A board member for years, who has gone on a number of well-known rants about how much the Cleansing Wars and Rajaat timeline sucks and why? How it destroys the integrity and feeling of the setting found in the first boxed set, and a monster of an overused trope? And has pointed towards cool threads on other forums where people have gone about re-envisioning DS, and always in a manner that gets rid of that stuff?
I pray Silverblade truly is right and the 4E setting ejects Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars, and all the unnecessary and destructive additions from the second boxed set, returns to the spirit of the original box, and opens up the history to be developed by each group of fans on their own by removing the specter of Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars hanging overhead.
somehow I think that the only history they will touch is going to be of kalaks death. they might touch on a few racial histories (dray eladrin and the like) but I do not think they will touch on some of the more solid stuff like the clensing wars. I think everything is going to be a big mystery and they are gonna cover how things are today.
Hooray for that.
Dark Sun was best when the world was mysterious, its history lost.
I've always ignored Rajaat and his merry men of genocide
at least 2/3 majority hated it I'd suggest
and the devs HAVE said, several times, that they realized TSR screwed up, and are not going to repeat it or continue it
it will be up to the DM to decide how their campaign goes as it damn well should be.
From "returning to Athas, part 1"
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
Old Dark Sun or New Dark Sun?
Rich: One of the big questions we hit early on in the process was how Dark Sun 2010 should relate to the 2nd Edition product line. Over the course of its five-year run in the ‘90s, the world of Athas evolved tremendously; Troy Denning’s Prism Pentad novels revealed great secrets about the origins of the world and brought the rebels of Tyr to a climactic confrontation with the sorcerer-kings and the Dragon itself. Game products expanded the known world to places such as the Last Sea, the Jagged Cliffs, and the Crimson Savannah. Should our new Dark Sun books pick up where 2nd Edition left off? Advance the timeline by centuries, as the 3rd Edition Dragon Magazine article did? Or return to the world’s beginnings, re-envisioning Athas for a new generation of gamers?
Rodney: There was also the question of information overload. Trying to do everything in one or two books would shrink the space we had to cover each topic. The original 1991 boxed set devoted only a paragraph or two to most topics (even the city-states only got a page or two), so we knew it could be done. At the same time, we also knew we were going to want to include lots of new mechanics to make sure the 4th Edition game system could be adapted to a different play style–one that felt like Dark Sun but still had the familiar trappings of D&D.
Rich: We kicked around the options available to us off and on through several design meetings, weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each one. A clear consensus soon emerged: We all felt that the best, purest, most captivating moment of Dark Sun’s previous run was the moment in time presented in the original 1991 boxed set. The 1996 set that captured the events and developments of the Prism Pentad—half the sorcerer-kings dead, rain falling in the Sea of Silt—felt like it had wandered into a place where it wasn’t quite Dark Sun anymore. So we settled on the idea of producing an “ultimate” Dark Sun, returning to that golden moment of the original set. The events of the Prism Pentad may unfold in your new Dark Sun campaign more or less as they did in the novels, or they might not. This is a world where the exploits of Rikus, Neeva, Sadira, and the rest are only one possibility among many.
Rodney: While the things that followed the original Dark Sun boxed set had many interesting ideas, I think most Dark Sun fans can agree that there was a certain magic to that first set that really captures the imagination. It wasn’t just that it was different, it was also that the world had a really great foundation for some compelling stories. One of the big philosophies that we try and embrace with D&D is that it’s the players that should be the heroes of those stories, so we try to avoid metaplots too much. The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes. We wanted people approaching the 4th Edition Dark Sun books to get the same sense of magic that we all got when opening that 1991 boxed set, and then to go on to tell stories with themselves as the stars.That all said, there are plenty of neat things from those later products that were just too interesting to pass up. I’m looking at you, Dregoth. So, we did some cherry-picking of things to add to our version of the setting
see? HURRAY!!! death to the crap that ruined Athas!
I've said same thing about the Forgotten Relams, original boxed set = awesome, but the "Elminsterized, ultra detailed version
" ruins it actually, it's worse with Dark Sun because Dark Sun isn't a place where such knowledge of detail makes sense, and ruins it's big attraction: mystery and strangeness.TSR kept screwing up it's settings to follow damn metaplots in novels so they could punt out new versions...Ravenloft being an example of how thoroughly they messed settings up doing that!
So, you want Rajaat and the Cleansing War? fine by me!
I hate it though, I don't need that to explain that Athas is just *different* maybe orcs trolls etc NEVER existed, who cares anyway except a DM who wnats to add them?
So don't force the official history on me, and I'll leave you to enjoy it if you wish.
Basically, in my own campaign, Rajaat or no Rajaat makes no difference. But for the good of the setting as a whole, I am not so sure.
2. I and EVERY 2e DS fan I'v ever known must not be in the majority, as we all loved the cleansing war/Rajaat story.
Really? EVERY DS fan you've ever known LOVED the Cleansing Wars and all that? You've been around these boards for a long time...so even, say, myself? A board member for years, who has gone on a number of well-known rants about how much the Cleansing Wars and Rajaat timeline sucks and why? How it destroys the integrity and feeling of the setting found in the first boxed set, and a monster of an overused trope? And has pointed towards cool threads on other forums where people have gone about re-envisioning DS, and always in a manner that gets rid of that stuff?
I pray Silverblade truly is right and the 4E setting ejects Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars, and all the unnecessary and destructive additions from the second boxed set, returns to the spirit of the original box, and opens up the history to be developed by each group of fans on their own by removing the specter of Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars hanging overhead.
Actually, I was only talk about the DS fans I know, as in personally. Even with all the interaction I'v had with folks on this forums (not that much), I don't know anyone here.
As for rajaat and the cleansing war, I guess it's being treated like the last sea, the dead lands and so on. It's simply not being included in the 4e DS material. It hasn't been removed, I'm sure and since we all know what caused what, we know rajaat and the cleansing war is, infact, part of 4e DS. Even if they don't spell it out.
That is unless they rewrite the history, which would be a shame.
I'm one of those that like the Rajaat story, and will keep it in my game, though the plot of the first campaign I run will not have anything to do with it, so it won't matter, and may never get mentioned.
2. I and EVERY 2e DS fan I'v ever known must not be in the majority, as we all loved the cleansing war/Rajaat story.
Really? EVERY DS fan you've ever known LOVED the Cleansing Wars and all that? You've been around these boards for a long time...so even, say, myself? A board member for years, who has gone on a number of well-known rants about how much the Cleansing Wars and Rajaat timeline sucks and why? How it destroys the integrity and feeling of the setting found in the first boxed set, and a monster of an overused trope? And has pointed towards cool threads on other forums where people have gone about re-envisioning DS, and always in a manner that gets rid of that stuff?
I pray Silverblade truly is right and the 4E setting ejects Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars, and all the unnecessary and destructive additions from the second boxed set, returns to the spirit of the original box, and opens up the history to be developed by each group of fans on their own by removing the specter of Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars hanging overhead.
Actually, I was only talk about the DS fans I know, as in personally. Even with all the interaction I'v had with folks on this forums (not that much), I don't know anyone here.
As for rajaat and the cleansing war, I guess it's being treated like the last sea, the dead lands and so on. It's simply not being included in the 4e DS material. It hasn't been removed, I'm sure and since we all know what caused what, we know rajaat and the cleansing war is, infact, part of 4e DS. Even if they don't spell it out.
That is unless they rewrite the history, which would be a shame.
You're missing the point.
If you like Rajaat and the cleansing wars you as a dm can add it to your Dark Sun.
Just because it was the canonical history of Athas in 2e doesn't mean that its the 'real' history of the new Dark Sun.
Look at what Rich Baker said: "The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes."
Basically, the prism pentad can be treated as Troy Dennings personal home game, with his own pack of heroes, that was forced into canon.
Now the story of Rajaat is only a possible history of Athas. No more or less valid then another explanation a dm may reveal to his players in his home game.
But no more forcing it on folks, hurray!
You're missing the point.
I love irony.
If you like Rajaat and the cleansing wars you as a dm can add it to your Dark Sun.
No need. It's already part of the setting, even if it's not included in the new material. Same with the deadlands, last sea and the crimson Savannah. If people don't want to use the history, they don't have to, especially if it's not included in the new material. But I foresee this forum being flooded with questions regarding 2e lore. Just like with eberron and forgotten realms, fans will want to know what 4e is missing in terms of lore.
Just because it was the canonical history of Athas in 2e doesn't mean that its the 'real' history of the new Dark Sun.
Doesn't mean it's not, either.
Look at what Rich Baker said: "The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes."
Which has nothing to do with the history of athas. It just means that Dms no longer need to feel they must follow the novel line with their games.
Basically, the prism pentad can be treated as Troy Dennings personal home game, with his own pack of heroes, that was forced into canon.
Yup, it can.
Now the story of Rajaat is only a possible history of Athas. No more or less valid then another explanation a dm may reveal to his players in his home game.
Which is perfectly fine for homebrew. No argument. But unless they rewrite the history, it's safe to assume it follows what it's always been. DMs can do whatever they want, as it's always been.
Yeah the Cleansing War etc is a possible choice for YOU if you want to use it.
But no more forcing it on folks, hurray!
Don't count your chickens just yet. We've yet to see the new material and how it rewrites the old. Since a reset to the first box doesn't erase athasian history, I'd wait and see.
All I know, is that it's a good thing you can't hear what I'm saying right now.
You're missing the point.
I love irony.
If you like Rajaat and the cleansing wars you as a dm can add it to your Dark Sun.
No need. It's already part of the setting, even if it's not included in the new material. Same with the deadlands, last sea and the crimson Savannah. If people don't want to use the history, they don't have to, especially if it's not included in the new material. But I foresee this forum being flooded with questions regarding 2e lore. Just like with eberron and forgotten realms, fans will want to know what 4e is missing in terms of lore.
Just because it was the canonical history of Athas in 2e doesn't mean that its the 'real' history of the new Dark Sun.
Doesn't mean it's not, either.
Look at what Rich Baker said: "The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes."
Which has nothing to do with the history of athas. It just means that Dms no longer need to feel they must follow the novel line with their games.Basically, the prism pentad can be treated as Troy Dennings personal home game, with his own pack of heroes, that was forced into canon.
Yup, it can.
Now the story of Rajaat is only a possible history of Athas. No more or less valid then another explanation a dm may reveal to his players in his home game.
Which is perfectly fine for homebrew. No argument. But unless they rewrite the history, it's safe to assume it follows what it's always been. DMs can do whatever they want, as it's always been.
I also like irony. If you could point it out for me, I'd appreciate it.
I think we just have a fundamental difference of opinion on past canon of a re-imagined setting.
I'll better explain how I see it.
In the Original Battlestar Galactica the cylons were created by alien lizards.
In the re-imagined Battlestar they were created by humans.
A person can't correctly claim that in the new battlestar the cylons are made by aliens because that was their origin in the original.
the analogy is not perfect as the history of Dark Sun could possibly include Rajaat if a dm wants it to. But, to say a Dark Sun without Rajaat is simple homebrew is not really correct.
hmmm, the war bringer certainly created enough arguments between fans
.I missed the post where you said we should wait and see what exactly the new Dark Sun contains before considering what canon.
I agree that this is probably the smartest course by far.
Personally, it doesn't make sense to me. They make changes according to their version of logic, yet limit options that makes no sense.
So, they can change the rich history of athas for whatever reason, but the idea that sorcerer kings granting divine power is bad. Or that the cleansing war took place, but was not successful.
So, 4e DS might no longer have a blue age, the rebirth might never have happened. The brown tide and the changing of the sun might be gone.The pyreen might not play a role in the history at all. Rajaat never existed,and races exist for another reason. Sorcerer kings are sorcerer kings for a new reason. The dragon might have always been a dragon. Defiling magic might be connected to the far realm...
Why? The history of athas was not bad in any way. It was unique and helped give darksun a unique flavor. It was a benefit, not a hindrance.
So, what might be the new recreated version?
The world is created by the primordials, the gods refine the world, the dawn war happens. Athas is ruined during the dawn war, the primal spirits sacrifice greatly to seal athas from the primordials and the gods. The gods are destroyed or driven off.
Why? Eberron's history is intact, as is FR (AFAIK), but they want to rewrite athasian lore because they can? Because some fans hated the history simply because of what was in the novels? Yet it's perfectly acceptable, as are the other changes they've made. Yet sorcerer kings granting divine magic is a "HELL NO" reaction, because they never did before. (hypocrisy!)
Even when the official 4e lore included the GODS! (something never before done) With those new additions, the inclusion of divine magic is beyond possible. But no, that change would be too big. It wouldn't be a small change, like say, rewriting the athasian history, removing the blue age, the brown tide, the changing of the sun, the rebirth, the cleansing war, Rajaat and the champions. Changing the cosmology of athas is obviously a small change as well.
Maybe no one else is even thinking about it. Maybe everyone else simply likes whatever is done as long as it has the wotc logo on it. Maybe they like the change because it will bother fans who enjoyed the original concept. Maybe people simply do not care and just want a new setting to mine for ideas for their homebrewed world. Maybe some folks actually do like the new changes because they're interesting. In which I'd agree if this were a NEW setting and not the complete FUBAR of an existing setting.
I was looking forward to 4e darksun, but that's not what I'm getting from everything I'm hearing. Instead, I'm getting a "plug and play" desert setting with PoL background that only looks like darksun on the surface. But when you open it up and look inside, you find it's as hollow as the PoL fluff, which is only good enough to be used as an idea mine for homebrewed world and not its own setting.
At least, that's what I would say if I wasn't waiting to look at the 4e DS material first, before making any judgements. Because I AM waiting, I didn't say the above and instead, offered a "what if" response to a situation that could happen.
See *points to posts*, a majority of folk I have ever know LOATHE the whole damn metalplot imposed by the novels, the "halflings ate my hamster" backstory, Kalak being ganked by an 8th level gladiator etc etc :p
at least 2/3 majority hated it I'd suggest
and the devs HAVE said, several times, that they realized TSR screwed up, and are not going to repeat it or continue it
it will be up to the DM to decide how their campaign goes as it damn well should be.
From "returning to Athas, part 1"
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...Old Dark Sun or New Dark Sun?
Rich: One of the big questions we hit early on in the process was how Dark Sun 2010 should relate to the 2nd Edition product line. Over the course of its five-year run in the ‘90s, the world of Athas evolved tremendously; Troy Denning’s Prism Pentad novels revealed great secrets about the origins of the world and brought the rebels of Tyr to a climactic confrontation with the sorcerer-kings and the Dragon itself. Game products expanded the known world to places such as the Last Sea, the Jagged Cliffs, and the Crimson Savannah. Should our new Dark Sun books pick up where 2nd Edition left off? Advance the timeline by centuries, as the 3rd Edition Dragon Magazine article did? Or return to the world’s beginnings, re-envisioning Athas for a new generation of gamers?
Rodney: There was also the question of information overload. Trying to do everything in one or two books would shrink the space we had to cover each topic. The original 1991 boxed set devoted only a paragraph or two to most topics (even the city-states only got a page or two), so we knew it could be done. At the same time, we also knew we were going to want to include lots of new mechanics to make sure the 4th Edition game system could be adapted to a different play style–one that felt like Dark Sun but still had the familiar trappings of D&D.
Rich: We kicked around the options available to us off and on through several design meetings, weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each one. A clear consensus soon emerged: We all felt that the best, purest, most captivating moment of Dark Sun’s previous run was the moment in time presented in the original 1991 boxed set. The 1996 set that captured the events and developments of the Prism Pentad—half the sorcerer-kings dead, rain falling in the Sea of Silt—felt like it had wandered into a place where it wasn’t quite Dark Sun anymore. So we settled on the idea of producing an “ultimate” Dark Sun, returning to that golden moment of the original set. The events of the Prism Pentad may unfold in your new Dark Sun campaign more or less as they did in the novels, or they might not. This is a world where the exploits of Rikus, Neeva, Sadira, and the rest are only one possibility among many.
Rodney: While the things that followed the original Dark Sun boxed set had many interesting ideas, I think most Dark Sun fans can agree that there was a certain magic to that first set that really captures the imagination. It wasn’t just that it was different, it was also that the world had a really great foundation for some compelling stories. One of the big philosophies that we try and embrace with D&D is that it’s the players that should be the heroes of those stories, so we try to avoid metaplots too much. The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes. We wanted people approaching the 4th Edition Dark Sun books to get the same sense of magic that we all got when opening that 1991 boxed set, and then to go on to tell stories with themselves as the stars.That all said, there are plenty of neat things from those later products that were just too interesting to pass up. I’m looking at you, Dregoth. So, we did some cherry-picking of things to add to our version of the setting
While it does say that Denning's novels are one possibility for the way things happened, that doesn't necessarily mean that Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars are out. Those could still be part of the official history.
All it is saying is that everything after FY1 is up to the DM and players.
While it does say that Denning's novels are one possibility for the way things happened, that doesn't necessarily mean that Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars are out. Those could still be part of the official history.
All it is saying is that everything after FY1 is up to the DM and players.
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner... The quoted article is talking about when in the timeline the campaign setting is... not rejecting all the prior source material. They even mentioned that "The Prism Pentad and follow-up material explore one way those stories could unfold, but those of us that used to play Dark Sun all had our own stories of the way things played out, with ourselves as the heroes." That is referring to events after Kalak's death... not the ones before...
I.e. only one SK is dead, the others are still alive and well and it is up to the GM which, if any will die. The Dragon is still roaming and doing his thing, no one is currently gathering all the ancient artifacts to kill him. No Tyr storms in the future unless the GM wants it.
The cleansing war, rajaat, and the champions are all in the past... the SK's are no longer his champions, they betrayed him... no one knows about any of this so the history is just that history... but hidden so few know about it.
WoTC have not been retconning any of the campaign worlds by totally redoing their histories... why would they start with Dark Sun.
This part of the article was discussing when in the timeline the system was set on, and anything in the old official timeline after that would not ness. happen.
Why? The history of athas was not bad in any way. It was unique and helped give darksun a unique flavor. It was a benefit, not a hindrance.
I could and in fact have written paragraphs on why the PP-revealed history of Athas was objectively bad (even folks who like it can point out where it is illogical), and not a benefit to the setting, very much a hinderance to it for gaming.
Maybe some folks actually do like the new changes because they're interesting. In which I'd agree if this were a NEW setting and not the complete FUBAR of an existing setting.
But only if you don't think that the complete FUBAR of the existing setting occurred with the introduction of Rajaat and the Cleansing Wars and the entire Prism Pentad storyline; in which case the erasure of these elements from the setting would be un-FUBARing it, which is why so many original fans are happy and excited at the prospect those things could potentially be removed entirely, giving us the setting we first spent our money and time on two decades ago instead of the designer's personal campaign they turned it into which you believe is the "real" or "original" setting.
One such metaplot rearrangement, one might call it that, is Raddu's Arcane Apocalypse.
FR and Dark Sun have been radically altered -
I can see Dragonlance offering a Renaissance Era setting at this point.
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I'd love to see how people would react if Star Wars or Lord of the Rings were altered for the sake of an edition of a game.
I don't like the re-invention of lore - and when it is done, I disregard the lord completely.
Duke, I sympathize - but ultimately, just put Rajaat and his war back in - OR, play a campaign where the war is just beginning.
The world is created by the primordials, the gods refine the world, the dawn war happens. Athas is ruined during the dawn war, the primal spirits sacrifice greatly to seal athas from the primordials and the gods. The gods are destroyed or driven off.
I'm not sure why this is a problem. This does not inherently conflict with the 2e history of Dark Sun. In fact, it can all occur before the official timeline even begins. After all, the story of Athas begins with halflings as masters of nature, and a world devoid of gods, does it not?
The world is created by the primordials, the gods refine the world, the dawn war happens. Athas is ruined during the dawn war, the primal spirits sacrifice greatly to seal athas from the primordials and the gods. The gods are destroyed or driven off.
I'm not sure why this is a problem. This does not inherently conflict with the 2e history of Dark Sun. In fact, it can all occur before the official timeline even begins. After all, the story of Athas begins with halflings as masters of nature, and a world devoid of gods, does it not?
If, by having the dawn war, the blue age, brown tide, green age and changing of the sun is rewritten, I'd be against it. The dawn war began because of the gods interference in the primordials work (the world), by changing raw elemental energies into finished landscape. Then by populating the world with their own pet science projects. (mortal races) The world was very much occupied by the end of the dawn war.
So, This leads to a ton of questions if you follow the PoL fluff, which is all we have to go on in regards to the dawn war. First, halflings were among the "newer" races, created sometime during the war. Dragons, Humans and dwarves, along with giants, were created before the halflings. As were the feyfolk (eladrin) and quite possibly, the dark ones. Another factor is that Torog was imprisoned in the underdark before the dawn war even began.
So, unless dark sun doesn't follow the standard PoL history, there are huge, HUGE, changes to the setting. Either way, they will have to explain some of the history, or people will have to assume one way or the other. We could either have the DS lore, or we could have a new version of the PoL lore.
So what we end up with, based on what we have to go on, is a planet very different than the original athas and an alien history. Now, while this doesn't mean diddly in when I'm the DM, I shudder to think what I would encounter if I ever were to sit down at someone elses table.
I'd just like to add, I am a fan of the dawn war PoL fluff and the idea of being able to encounter certain things not usually found in dark sun has its appeal. But again, I never wanted a generic desert setting. After talking to my friend about bloodsand arena and fury of the wastewalker (which he has and plays in), I'm beginning to see that it simply won't be the same animal. (Primordials living on athas and athasian goblins running around are but two known examples)
While this won't reduce the chances of me buying 4e DS, this was an unexpected blow. I thought DS was safe from "creative changes" because of eberron, which was the beacon of hope. It's not an earth shattering event by any means, it's just a bit disappointing and confusing that the rich history might get 86ed simply because of what happened in the novels. (which are based in the future and not the passed anyways)
Keeping the history the same does not mean that the future also has to remain the same.
@greyorm: There's also the other possibility: to leave the Champions, Rajaat, and Cleansing Wars as they are (with broad strokes of the pen, if need be) but generate something else out of it than what the metaplot ended up being.
That is indeed one possiblity; see my response to the "History and Mystery" thread for what I feel would be a fair and comprehensive fix.
I'd love to see how people would react if Star Wars or Lord of the Rings were altered for the sake of an edition of a game.
Bad analogy, because those settings weren't created as or FOR games. Athas was, from the start.
However, keep in mind that the setting in question here was altered for the sake of an edition of a game: the original set was altered completely by the PP to for the second-edition boxed set. And fans were unsurprisingly mad about it. We're still mad. Hence our argument about erasing the intrusive setting history that some insist is "canon" and "setting lore".
Consider: the chunk of setting lore you're defending as necessary canon is the interloper, is the change that is being derided. The release of 4E gives us a chance to hopefully cast off the changes made to the setting. No, we want the setting returned to pure canon, before the unfortunate addition and changes created by that material. Because they really did go and change Star Wars and LotR, to borrow your analogy.
Something to think about when you argue "4E DarkSun changed the setting! Don't tread on my canon!" THAT canon tread on OUR canon.
I can see Dragonlance offering a Renaissance Era setting at this point.
To me, Dragonlance was the chaos war and the age of mortals. I hold no hope for a 4e DL at all, because it will get a reboot and the dragonlance I love, will be nothing more than homebrew. I have no reason to buy any 4e DL products. I'm sick of the heroes of the lance.
I'd love to see how people would react if Star Wars or Lord of the Rings were altered for the sake of an edition of a game.
Some Lotr fans exploded when they watched the movie, screaming "that never happened" and " I can't believe they left that part out!" As for star wars fans, They constantly blame the actors for anakin and padmes bland personalities, believing it was bad acting and not, simply bland characters. (yes, they acted those parts perfect, the characters had robotic personalities)
Point is, THose fans explode, probably more often than D&D fans do. If there's a difference to begin with. lol.
I thought DS was safe from "creative changes" because of eberron, which was the beacon of hope. It's not an earth shattering event by any means, it's just a bit disappointing and confusing that the rich history might get 86ed simply because of what happened in the novels. (which are based in the future and not the passed anyways)
Duke, you still seem to be under the impression that the "setting" you have been defending on the boards here is the original and true Dark Sun setting. Yet all the things you think the removal/change of makes it "not Dark Sun" is all the stuff we say the inclusion of made it "not Dark Sun". Because none of the things you insist are central to "real" DS can be found in the 1E Wanderer's Journal. NONE of them. They just aren't in there -- even if you say "well, THIS bit HINTS at it", it still isn't in there. There are multiple ways to interpret those hints.
We really wish DS had been safe from "creative changes", too: changes like Rajaat, the Cleansing Wars, the Last Sea, space halflings, etc. All the 2E/PP stuff that wasn't a part of the setting as originally presented. So how can your "planet" be really Athas, and one with goblins not be? Becasue what you're defending as the real Athas isn't either, then. It's as much an interloper as those goblins.
Keeping the history the same does not mean that the future also has to remain the same.
No, but it does tie you to certain things. Things that not all of us liked being tied to when they were "revealed" in the PP.
Duke, you still seem to be under the impression that the "setting" you have been defending on the boards here is the original and true Dark Sun setting.
No, I'm not debating what is or is not "true" darksun in regards to the 2e material. To me, everything is "true" darksun, because it's what was in the products. Yes, they never revealed the secrets until the PP and revised box set, but for me, that wasn't a bad thing. It finally told me all about the secrets I wanted to know about. It didn't add anything our group couldn't handle and it didn't ruin any of the mystery of the setting, for me. In fact, it was awesome actually finding out what the truth was.
I'm not even really arguing that leaving the history out would be terrible. What I'm trying to say is that stating Rajaat, the cleansing war and the rest of the history never happened, is a serious loss. And replacing the old lore with a new spin of the PoL lore, is a shame.
If it's a choice, I'm in completesupport of leaving it up to the DM. Rather than getting a "this is what would happen if the primordials won"PoL setting. Which is where it appears to be heading. They claimed to not want to take a "you can't add this, this doesn't belong" stance, and leave it up to the DM. Yet, when they inject things that had no place in the 2e box set (since you consider that true DS), they're not exactly doing that. Athasian history is suppose to be a mystery and by including the dawn war (something no one on athas should even know about), they're not leaving it a mystery and it connects darksun directly to the PoL fluff.
That's my complaint, I'd rather have darksun completely disconnected from the PoL stuff, much like eberron, which has its own history and again, it's not something that would deter me from supporting 4e DS. As with everything 4e related, I'll get used to it.
Also, Nb4 Torog ate my city-state.
- His arrival into canon brought a lot of "bookish facts" with him. If I, as a DM, put gnomes in my Dark Sun game before Rajaat's bckstory developed, the game would still be Dark Sun. But with the Cleansing Wars written in stone, the gnomes went from disencouraged to your game is not Dark Sun if you put that in! Nibenay made sure there will be no gnomes in Athas ever! While I wouldn't put gnomes in my DS game, I prefer to not fault a DM who does include them in, especially if they put a Dark Sun twist to them. (My personal suggestion is to use the nuno sa punso of Philippine folklore as a basis. I mean, just look at him. @_@)
- He brought in a metaplot that was filled with "tripwires." You want a plot that culminates in slaying the mythical dragon? You have to factor in what happens next - after all, killing him would release someone much worse. How about a sorcerer-king? If you do that, then the issue of the dragon's levy (an unrealistic number IMO) comes up. Adventures (admittedly only in the epic levels) would not have a lot of wiggle-room.
- How dare he get himself defeated by Halaster?? You're the first sorcerer, man! That's about as bad as getting done in by a Daylight plus a Permanency spell! ... >.>
Personally, my preference is to have Rajaat exist as before, but also to have him dead-dead as opposed to imprisoned. That way, the mythical dragon keeps his place as "THE" BBEG of the setting, the sorcerer-kings can have more freedom to bicker with each other, and players get their chance to be the actual force of change in Athas (assuming they live long enough to see epic <.<).
Have the Cleansing Wars exist, but keep the specifics vague. Entire races were wiped out, but even if the player characters found out about that tidbit, how can they tell which races had that misfortune? The gnome player character won't know, he'd be the first to tell you that he never met an extinct race. (aka, I still wouldn't actively encourage gnomes, but if a player really wants to make one, then why not?)
Of course, I probably wouldn't get my preferred scenario in canon, as things such as, "If Rajaat is dead, then why did they even have to turn Borys into the dragon?" pops up. But that's probably what I would do to my game, and you know what? I still think it's as Dark Sun as the one where the dragon is a mysterious being of destruction, or the one where all trolls were scorched by Hamanu.
In summary, I don't think changes to the history would make the setting less Dark Sun. The feel and not the history is what's important for me. So bring on demon worshippers! I can see it working already - I can, for example, see destructive sun cleric ravagers gaining their power from a balor.
Disclaimer: I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with anybody here - I'm just posting my opinions. Although, I really don't think having a godVSprimordial war would stop the occurence of a Cleansing War many centuries later.
Have the Cleansing Wars exist, but keep the specifics vague. Entire races were wiped out, but even if the player characters found out about that tidbit, how can they tell which races had that misfortune? The gnome player character won't know, he'd be the first to tell you that he never met an extinct race. (aka, I still wouldn't actively encourage gnomes, but if a player really wants to make one, then why not?)
Of course, I probably wouldn't get my preferred scenario in canon, as things such as, "If Rajaat is dead, then why did they even have to turn Borys into the dragon?" pops up. But that's probably what I would do to my game, and you know what? I still think it's as Dark Sun as the one where the dragon is a mysterious being of destruction, or the one where all trolls were scorched by Hamanu.
In summary, I don't think changes to the history would make the setting less Dark Sun. The feel and not the history is what's important for me. So bring on demon worshippers! I can see it working already - I can, for example, see destructive sun cleric ravagers gaining their power from a balor.
Disclaimer: I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with anybody here - I'm just posting my opinions. Although, I really don't think having a godVSprimordial war would stop the occurence of a Cleansing War many centuries later.
This is a re-imagining, I can appreciate that - and some will love it, others will loathe it.
This is a game - and as such, many people will treat it with a fickle childlike temperament. Game worlds cease to be platforms of any sort of meaningful story - and remain a day at the playground (and arguably - a day at the playground can be a blast). Comic books are even more consistent - even if the story changes - the character personalities are almost always consistent. People would rage if Batman started acting like Superman and vice versa (at least permanently.) So, even comic book readers need some form of verisimilitude.
For fantasy universes that have any measure of long lasting quality - wherein their very composition is debated and argued - sometimes in academia - the world cannot be subject to the whimsy of business ventures. Shadowrun, Warhammer, and the World of Darkness will always be far more relevant than any of the D&D worlds - because they have made, what I feel to be - a mature stance to stand by the past incarnations of those products. And they ALL evolve - you don't need complete annihilation and restructuring to have "fresh and new". The Shadowrun properties story began in 2050 - it is now 2072 in the arcing product story.
For some people - certain topics excite the imagination. Like a person - those topics become synonymous with the name. Duke - as an example - likes the concept of Rajaat and his Champions performing the Cleansing War. To him, it gives a unique gaming world with a great and tragic event that almost seems to sum up and provide the players with a backdrop for the kind of **** world their players are entering. Athas IS Rajaat (at least in part) and Rajaat IS Athas - to someone who believes they 'know' the gaming world.
Now - this has altered. I can see where someone who enjoys the "Person they thought they knew." would be disheartened to find out that Athas has become just one of those nature survival shows. Not a commentary on the abuse of power - the terror of genocidal war - the result of ecological carelessness.
Now - you find that the person you admired - is someone totally different. Hey, it happens - but the first stage of walking away is the anger that comes with realizing "things have changed in a way we prefer them not to."
So - those who don't like it can change it back - live with it - or walk away.
But disliking those changes isn't wrong - perhaps futile - but not wrong.
I, for one, use homebrew - my gaming is far too consistent to stick with whatever man-child decides to re-invent the wheel every edition.
EDIT: I make no claim that I know what you are thinking Duke. I apologize if I'm using your opinion improperly.
No, I'm not debating what is or is not "true" darksun in regards to the 2e material. To me, everything is "true" darksun, because it's what was in the products.
I understand your point, but the difference, by way of analogy, is that you accept Star Wars: Episodes I-III movies as canon, while I only accept the original triology, because "Midicholorians? Oh, gods...someone stop Lucas before he burns down my childhood with his shark jumping." You believe E1-3 added significantly to the property, while I believe they significantly detracted from it. (Now, I don't know where you actually stand on the Star Wars issue, but you hopefully see the paralells and hence what I'm saying.)
Athasian history is suppose to be a mystery and by including the dawn war (something no one on athas should even know about), they're not leaving it a mystery and it connects darksun directly to the PoL fluff.
This I agree with.
Epic level characters are in a position to cause SERIOUS change to the game world - your group wants to kill a sorcerer king and create a Utopian society?
Unless ALL of Athas rallies against this - and why would they really? - then those 5 level 30 people are going to alter Athas forever (and, of course - they should).
Characters like Borys are likely not going to be stronger than things found in the Monster Manauls - like Orcus and what have you -
So there's really nothing keeping the "history" of Athas in tact anyway after the uber high levels show up at the table.
The devastation of Athas is a curious thing - it "can" be altered - and honestly, why would even an evil player want to sit in a dump? It's like a carefully balanced destroyed ecosystem that could be completely turned around - and, then Athas isn't Athas anymore -
Heck - you could even have Gods - the players all become immortal through their epic destinies anyway.
(Now, I don't know where you actually stand on the Star Wars issue, but you hopefully see the paralells and hence what I'm saying.)
Yeah, I see what you mean. Added filler to sell books, if I get your meaning. As far as starwars goes, if there isn't a space battle or a lightsaber fight, I'm probably fast forwarding. Funny enough, comparing Rajaat, the cleansing war or anything darksun, to E1-3, kinda makes me sad. lol. I mean, C'mon! The PP and revised box set wasn't THAT bad. Although, the space battles in E3 were pretty darn cool. Especially on mute.
Unless ALL of Athas rallies against this - and why would they really? - then those 5 level 30 people are going to alter Athas forever (and, of course - they should).
I'v already considered this and it doesn't look pretty for the PCs in the least. The moment they hit epic, they will have ALL the sorcerer kings AND the dragon gunning for them. They might even have the order after them. Epic looks to be very interesting in darksun.
Characters like Borys are likely not going to be stronger than things found in the Monster Manauls - like Orcus and what have you -
If Rajaat isn't a monster in 4e DS then I see the dragon being a level 35 skirmisher with heavy control.
The devastation of Athas is a curious thing - it "can" be altered - and honestly, why would even an evil player want to sit in a dump? It's like a carefully balanced destroyed ecosystem that could be completely turned around - and, then Athas isn't Athas anymore -
I think restoring athas would be a great epic level adventure series for primal characters.
Heck - you could even have Gods - the players all become immortal through their epic destinies anyway.
Gods in the sense that the dragon is a god, yes. Dragons, sorcerer kings, avangions, elemental/primordials, guardian spirits and so on. Head of "the order" and such. A druid becoming a tree of life. All sound like fun EDs
I'd love to see how people would react if Star Wars or Lord of the Rings were altered for the sake of an edition of a game.
Am I a terrible person for thinking that would be awesome? A LotR or SW reboot could be insanely fun...
You are evil and perverted.
But some evil and perverted mind did it to Star Trek, to most sacred of geekdom icons.
As much as I hate, loathe, despise, and revile JJ Abrams... I loved what he did with Star Trek. He took everything that was good about it, and dropped the worst of it except when it was (intentionally) entertaining.
Science, history, fantasy, story-telling, game design; it will all march on.
He took everything that was good about it, and dropped the worst of it except...
...the time travel.
You witty troll-avatar'd man, you.
However, keep in mind that the setting in question here was altered for the sake of an edition of a game: the original set was altered completely by the PP to for the second-edition boxed set. And fans were unsurprisingly mad about it. We're still mad. Hence our argument about erasing the intrusive setting history that some insist is "canon" and "setting lore".
Consider: the chunk of setting lore you're defending as necessary canon is the interloper, is the change that is being derided. The release of 4E gives us a chance to hopefully cast off the changes made to the setting. No, we want the setting returned to pure canon, before the unfortunate addition and changes created by that material. Because they really did go and change Star Wars and LotR, to borrow your analogy.
Something to think about when you argue "4E DarkSun changed the setting! Don't tread on my canon!" THAT canon tread on OUR canon.
Exactly!
and yes, it's like jar-jar bloody Binks vs the original films, hehe ;)
He took everything that was good about it, and dropped the worst of it except...
...the time travel.
YOU JUST WON THE INTERTOOBS!