It was funny in 3rd ed as well with the Epic Level Handbook which in theory offered unlimited advancement. In reality 3rd ed usually crashed and burned around level 12+ due to the power level of magic involved and how min/maxed any was. The problem with uber baddies is theres a saying along the lines of "If you give stats to something the PCs will want to kill it". Usually they will use a min/maxed PC or contrived situation where XYZ character or party can kill said demon lord/god/kobold king or whatever.
Any BBEG in a book, novel, comic, or movie can usually do something that doesn't translate very well in game terms.Or in universe the BBEG engaged a hero in a epic duel but in game has to take attacks from multiple PCs.
In 2nd ed alot of Sorcerer Kings for example didn't have the hit points to go toe to toe with a group of mid level PCs (think 8-12) despite their stupiudly high caster and psionic levels. Their defences weren't exactly fantastic ither and a group of level 8 PCs can and did defeat monsters 10 levels higher than them. I recall an RPGA adventure designed for level 8 PCs with a level 18 Lich in it.
In 3rd ed in theory a level 10 character was twice as powerful as a level 8 character. In reality it came down to what spellcaster you had access to. High and epic level combat usually devolved into who could win initiative first, cast timestop and set of a chain reaction of 3-20+ spells to overwhelm an enemies defenses. That was only one abuse of the rules just using the PHB.
4th ed is more balenced in that regard but still has issues with stun lock wizards, and high level fights seem to devolve into hit point hackfests. It seems D&D has never handled high level combat particuly well. Using 3rd ed terms what level do you think Rajaat shuld be? You could argue he is level 100 but to me whats the point? He was defeated by a bunch of characters who at best were level 30, most were level 21-24. If he was level 100 he would have mopped the floor with them. The Dragon was a level 30 character, to me Rajaat probably would have been at most somewhere in the mid 40's probably lower. But how could Rajaat do all the things he done if he was "ony" level 40. Think about how powerful a level 40 character would be. How many of us here have played a level 40 character or even level 21+ that has actually been leveled up and not created at that level or close to it
Rajaats power is roughly comparabel to Karsus or Ioulaum powerful Netherise Archwizards from the Forgotten Realms. Whats FR got to do with DS you say?. I don't want to turn it into a favourite TSR world vs world peeing match but they represnt the best of that worlds arcane users. By focusing on their role rather than level. Both Rajaat and Karsus done things a level 21 wizard couldn't do. For the record Karsus was a level 41 wizard, and Ioulaum clocked i at level 45 or so as Im using them as an example of the highest level characters I know WoTC/TSR have named as opposed to high CR critters from the Epic Level Handbook (and were defeatable by level 20ish PCs in some cases). CRs were a mess in 3.0.
Going back to the Sorcerer Kings the 2nd ed material did stat some of them out. With the exception of Borys, none of them are particuly powerful for a "epic" level being. Yes they did have 21-24th levels in psionics/magic but that was in an edition where lower level beings had hope due to the way the power scale worked. The heroes of Tyr seemed to be in the level 10-15 range for the most part and working togaher its not unreasonable they could have killed a SK or two had they tried. Throw in the Prism Pentads story and the Dragon and several SKs bit the dust.
By focusing on the role of the creatures as opposed to their levels I don't think the SKs were intended to be unlillable uber baddies. Power use, worthy of respect yes but no reason to make them level 40+ in 3rd ed terms. Yes they have lived for centuries, and can grant spells to followers but so can numerous archfiends from the "normal" D&D universe. In terms of power thats more or less how I look at the SKs- as a particuly powerful monster with Boyrs being the Darksun equivilent of Demogorgon or Orcus. Of course they are a bit more complex than that but powerwise in 2nd ed their stats which were released were comparable to the stats of various archfineds in several TSR products, and they were weaker than the stats of gods Avatars- except for Borys who was comparable to a greater gods avatar from the Forgotten Realms and in some cases was severly beaten by them (40/40 Wizard/Clerics with unlimited spells and other abilities).
In 4th ed terms I would probably use the levels in the 2nd ed material (Revised boxed set, Beyond the Prism Pentad, City by the Silt Sea etc) as a roough baseline. All of the SKs should be solos which makes them alot tougher than their evel would indicate and yes that would make them killable by a higher level party in teh late paragon tier or early epic tier. Dregoth could clock in at level 29 solo and Borys would be 30. If one were to stat out Rajaat at the most he would be level 35-36 which would put him on par with 4th ed gods and he isn't one of them so most likely he would be in the level 32-35 (solo) range. Remember the SKs managed to defeat Rajaat once upon a time. He was also defeated by the heroes of Tyr as well. Yes the situation was a bit contrived as it was a plotline for a novel. Also consider it took the Heroes the better part of a decade to prepare and they hads to go find an artifact to help them out and have all the bases covered (Cleric, Wizard, Warrior, Psion, thief meh you can live without). Sounds like a typical D&D scenario to me.
In previous editions "we need a cleric who wants to be one (bandaid)" or in 4th ed terms we need a leader/defender or whatever.
Thats the essence of D&D regardless of edition. Build a party and go kill stuff
I'm a relative newb to D&D compared to some as I've only been playing for 15 years. In previous editions a level 21 PC was almost unheard of generally requiring the High Level players option book,or a world specific book such as Dragonkings or the Netheril boxed set. I don't imagine level 21+ PCs are that commen in 4th ed either. Next time you see a post about "Dregoth is only level 29 WTH?" think for a moment how powerful level 29 is. True dweomers in 2nd ed, epic spells in 3.5, or one level short of completing your epic destiny in 4th. Rajaat may be evel 100 or 36 but really why bother? Whats the point? The Emperor in Star Wars Saga rules is "only" level 20. Less can be more.Z
This might have already been discussed but one thing to keep in mind is that to begin the process of becoming a dragon or avengion, you have to have acquired 20 levels in both defiler/preserver and psionicist, so your baseline is already 40 levels. I'm sure this is going to dissappear in 4e in favor of epic destinies but just saying...
True, but have you ever played a Multi-Class or Dual Class character in 1st or 2nd ed.? It goes so much faster in 2nd ed. than 3rd. In a group of 20th level single class characters, a Muti-Classed would be something like 18/18 (rough estimate, I don't have an experience chart handy). As for a Dual Classed character, the levels of the 2nd class fly by when in a group of high level characters. At low levels you could often level after every fight.
The levels in your second dual class do go by fast if your group lets you hide out in the back and hardley help because your new abilities are so comparitivley weak.
Back to the Original post:
Level 45 sounds about right to me for Rajaat. The only problem is IMHO he probably can't be really killed. 13 Champions couldn't kill Rajaat plus two loyal champions. The best they could do was lock him up in the hollow.
"Thats the essence of D&D regardless of edition. Build a party and go kill stuff
"A level 45 Rajaat is unkillable. Thus, falls outside the "essence of D&D" - so why bother?
Renteria a 20/20 multiclass character in 2nd ed was probably equivilent to a level 24ish single class (depending on the class concerned 2nd ed xp tables
.A 20/20 whatever in 3rd ed sucked as you would get owned by a level 40 single classed wizard or Psion and your spells probably would be uselss vs CR36-44 critters you would most likely be facing.
You could be a Psion3/Wiz3/Cerebremancer10/Mindmage6 or something like that and gain 20 levels in both Psion and Wizard or level 23 if you had another PrC similar to Cerebremancer that gave full spellasting and psionics.
Most likely a 4th ed Dragon/Avangion for Pcs will be a epic destiny but you will be weak compared to an equivilent level NPC solo dragon or SK. Also remember in the original Dragon King books the Dragon and Avangion classes were entirly optional and IRL I've never even heard of a DS player who reached the right levels and had high enough stats to qualify. Dragon Kings was a fun book to read but was reasonably awful mechanically.
I'm guessing SKs will top out at 32 or so, Dragons at 34, Rajaat at 35.
He'll be unkillable for the same reasons the GODS couldn't kill off a large number of Primordials.
Personally I don't really use Rajaat as a plot device.
You shouldn't be able to kill Rajaat, only trap him again.
I've found that the prevailing attitude in d20-based games (especially Call of Cthulu) is "If its statted, we can kill it. If its not statted, it can be ignored."
To be honest, I'd rather see the rules for fighting Rajaat be "You miss. Rajaat obliterates you with one hit."
You shouldn't be able to kill Rajaat, only trap him again.
I've found that the prevailing attitude in d20-based games (especially Call of Cthulu) is "If its statted, we can kill it. If its not statted, it can be ignored."
To be honest, I'd rather see the rules for fighting Rajaat be "You miss. Rajaat obliterates you with one hit."
I never understood that mentality or the desire to slay gods. In my games, if you encounter rajaat, you die if your lucky or you get turned into a raincloud and I mock you for years and years if your not lucky. If you're not among the halfbreed scumbags or other abomination races, Rajaat might make you his lapdog, but thats if you help him with his master plan. The long term reward of all lapdogs is also death or eternal mockery, unless your a halfling. THEN the game can get interesting.
Mostly, people don't know who or what rajaat is, the name itself is unknown as is the true history. The SKs did their jobs well and too few know the truth for it to be wide spread. The PCs might go their entire character careers without ever learning about rajaat. Dependning on the adventures. And woe to the idiot hero who learns to much, for the dragons are always hungry.
I'd save rajaat for when every other campaign has been played and its time to bring out the biggest, most epic (you're gonna F'ing die - see how long you can survive) adventure. Tomb of horrors ain't got jack on rajaat, who laughs at what those weaksuck heroes call hard.
In reality 3rd ed usually crashed and burned around level 12+ due to the power level of magic involved and how min/maxed any was.
As for the argument that the characters in the novel managed to kill him despite not being near to his power level (iirc, Rikus was a level 16 or 18 gladiator for instance):
a) it was a novel, so the author could do whatever he wanted
b) he had just awakened, so his powers were probably not at full strength
c) in the end, they trapped him again--it wasn't some power v. power slugfest
So I wouldn't worry too much about him. The Sorceror-Kings and The Dragon on the other hand should be carefully considered and created, as PCs are more likely to end up fighting them than Rajaat in most campaigns.