So, with that in mind, is it reasonable to expect that when Oronis became the first Avangion that he kept access to this elemental vortex and was able to pass on the power to his Templars, who he would have assured were of good alignment?
Also, is it reasonable to assume that there could be some kind of ritual that could wrest control of an elemental vortex from a defeated sorcerer king?
I have a thing for Avangions!
Th adventure Dregoth Ascending established that elemental vortexes remain in existence after the death of their SK. Being relinked to another creature is an entirely different story.
If it were possible, it would require great magic to do so and may further require the use of a powerful artifact along the lines of the Dark Lens.
What exactly are Avangions? I've heard mentions of them but nothing solid
What exactly are Avangions? I've heard mentions of them but nothing solid
I know they have their fans, but avangions are one of the post-original-boxed-set tacked on inventions that I can most do without. I'm hoping they never earn a mention in 4e Dark Sun.
There's no evidence they weren't canon from the beginning, it's more likely that there just wasn't room.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
Dragon Kings was published after the original boxed set. It was filled with ideas Tim Brown came up with after the original design team broke up.
Once the original boxed set was published there were many things that were tacked on well before the Revised boxed set was released. Like para-elemental priests. An idea tacked on to the original boxed set setting. Saying they came after the original boxed set, but before the Revised boxed set does not mean they original design team came up with it, or even anticipated it. Of course, the original design team not anticipating something doesn't mean it is a bad idea or makes the setting worse.
I personally interviewed Troy Denning for over an hour, we covered a lot of ground. I published my recollections years ago on the Dark Sun mailing list.
I can confirm Troy Denning vehemently denied avangions were part of the original design. Troy's wording was that he believed "Dark Sun didn't need angels". But he smiled and said he and Tim disagreed about many things, like whether there ever were deities in the setting. Troy didn't tip his hand which side he leaned towards.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels? I'd say troy's personal opinions, while interesting, are simply opinions. If it's in a gaming product, it's canon.
Personally, I loved troy's novels. Just to be clear. Never followed them in the game, but they were a fun read! I'm also not entirely sure how avangions were lame or "not darksun" but then I don't share the popular opinion about a lot of "what isn't darksun".
Avangions were always very cool, unique and completely darksun, to me.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels? I'd say troy's personal opinions, while interesting, are simply opinions. If it's in a gaming product, it's canon.
Personally, I loved troy's novels. Just to be clear. Never followed them in the game, but they were a fun read! I'm also not entirely sure how avangions were lame or "not darksun" but then I don't share the popular opinion about a lot of "what isn't darksun".
Avangions were always very cool, unique and completely darksun, to me.
I like Avangions as well. I feel that they should be a more end-campaign sort of goal; I mean, after all Kalak needed his zigurrat, and Borys needed the lens, so it just seems that an avangion should need something special, as well.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels? I'd say troy's personal opinions, while interesting, are simply opinions. If it's in a gaming product, it's canon.
Personally, I loved troy's novels. Just to be clear. Never followed them in the game, but they were a fun read! I'm also not entirely sure how avangions were lame or "not darksun" but then I don't share the popular opinion about a lot of "what isn't darksun".
Avangions were always very cool, unique and completely darksun, to me.
I like Avangions as well. I feel that they should be a more end-campaign sort of goal; I mean, after all Kalak needed his zigurrat, and Borys needed the lens, so it just seems that an avangion should need something special, as well.
I'm not sure why Kalak or other SKs made ziggurats. Probably to have a place to transform in privacy capable of holding their eventual great size. But I don't think it's a requirement. I don't remember why Borys needed the lens. Maybe to speed up his transformation. I forget. Although the standard metamorphosis doesn't require anything special that I can remember. You could always connect the avangion metamorphosis to a tree of life.
I'm not sure why Kalak or other SKs made ziggurats. Probably to have a place to transform in privacy capable of holding their eventual great size. But I don't think it's a requirement. I don't remember why Borys needed the lens. Maybe to speed up his transformation. I forget. Although the standard metamorphosis doesn't require anything special that I can remember. You could always connect the avangion metamorphosis to a tree of life.
*************SPOILERS**************
Kalid-Ma and Kalak needed the Ziggurat for their one-step transformation. Other Ziggurats are most likely nothing but Tempels the SK build to show their wealth and power.
IIRC the Champions (later known as SKs) needed the Dark Lens to directly speed up the Dragon metamorphosis of Borys.
I like the Part with the Tree of of Life. However, personally I would prefer that the Avangions have to fuse Obidian Orbs to their bodies, similar to Dragons swallowing their.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels?
The same guy who authored the Wanderer's Journal, considered by most of those same as the bible of Dark Sun flavor. You are seriously going to throw out everything the man speaks about because of your personal distaste over the progress of some novels? 'K.
Criticizing the factualness (whether it was true) in his statement of what went on during the original design of the setting based on the outcome of the plot of his novels seems entirely a non sequitur.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels?
The same guy who authored the Wanderer's Journal, considered by most of those same as the bible of Dark Sun flavor. You are seriously going to throw out everything the man speaks about because of your personal distaste over the progress of some novels? 'K.
Criticizing the factualness (whether it was true) in his statement of what went on during the original design of the setting based on the outcome of the plot of his novels seems entirely a non sequitur.
I don't particularly agree with the sentiment on Denning; I think that while he probably can take credit for most of what made DS work, his novels certainly showed that his vision of the setting was radically different from that of his fanbase. He literally took Darksun to a place where few were willing to follow him.
Reading the Tribe of One trilogy you also learn that the Elven Preserver known as the Wanderer is long on the path to becoming an Avangion. The Avangion is an idea that is mostly useful as a plot device or an epic destiny in my mind.
There is little evidance that the Wanderer was an elf, and the being described in the ToO books as the Wanderer doesn't seem to hold true to the descriptions that we have in the gaming products. I think that the general consensus on the boards before was that he was a human elemental cleric or earth with a mutated claw arm.
Also, the Tribe of One novels are... not quiet in keeping with the themes of DS. Some of the concepts were cool, but it was all just a little too Drizzt-I'm-cool-but-I-need-love-and-acceptance-which-I-get-from-people-who-mother-me. I know I am not alone in feeling that these books shouldn't be part of the canon.
I'm not sure why Kalak or other SKs made ziggurats. Probably to have a place to transform in privacy capable of holding their eventual great size. But I don't think it's a requirement. I don't remember why Borys needed the lens. Maybe to speed up his transformation. I forget. Although the standard metamorphosis doesn't require anything special that I can remember. You could always connect the avangion metamorphosis to a tree of life.
Building a ziggurat isn't necessary for the metamorphosis, but some sort of structure is. It was listed as necessary in the 2e Dragon Kings supplement, and we put it into the requirements for the Epic Spells in 3.5. Interestingly, they were a mitigating factor, and you could research the spell series in a way that didn't require you to use a sructure. However, it does make things easier, and it was a requirement before.
Kalid-Ma and Kalak needed the Ziggurat for their one-step transformation. Other Ziggurats are most likely nothing but Tempels the SK build to show their wealth and power.
See Above
IIRC the Champions (later known as SKs) needed the Dark Lens to directly speed up the Dragon metamorphosis of Borys.
The Lens also was capable of mitigating things. It did speed things up.
Avangions are no longer lame, only an opportunity in waiting. This time around they can be made to have a Dark Sun-esque twist to them, just like everything else.
I'd like to see the concept addressed in the same way the Mourning Saviour was done for Eberron: i.e. there aren't any in the world, canonically, but an epic PC could potentially become one. Like the Mourning Saviour, an avangion's very existence injects a certain amount of hope into the setting that not every group will want to pursue, but if you do want to go that route, having a PC become the embodiment of that 'hope' is far more interesting than having it be just an uber-powerful NPC.
I'd like to see the concept addressed in the same way the Mourning Saviour was done for Eberron: i.e. there aren't any in the world, canonically, but an epic PC could potentially become one. Like the Mourning Saviour, an avangion's very existence injects a certain amount of hope into the setting that not every group will want to pursue, but if you do want to go that route, having a PC become the embodiment of that 'hope' is far more interesting than having it be just an uber-powerful NPC.
Yes. Oronis and the Avangion can be something players strive for. If they already exist, then players don't strive for them, but sit on the sidelines while these NPCs solve all the problems of the world.
How about their eyes get blue on blue, then they gradually turn into a giant man-worm thing?
And then it's revealed that the real avangion is actually completely different character, a revenant that's been brought back more times than he was supposed to.
Avangions are no longer lame, only an opportunity in waiting. This time around they can be made to have a Dark Sun-esque twist to them, just like everything else.
I'd like to see the concept addressed in the same way the Mourning Saviour was done for Eberron: i.e. there aren't any in the world, canonically, but an epic PC could potentially become one. Like the Mourning Saviour, an avangion's very existence injects a certain amount of hope into the setting that not every group will want to pursue, but if you do want to go that route, having a PC become the embodiment of that 'hope' is far more interesting than having it be just an uber-powerful NPC.
Heh, unless it is in the Dark Sun campaigns I've run where the concept of an Avangion ended up being revealed. My Avangions end up being a "false hope" -- they are weaker than the Dragons, until their metamorphosis is complete, and none have completed their transformation. In my DS games, there is only one Avangion -- Oronis. Sure, there were others who learned how to become Avangions from him -- each and every single one of those students have died horrifically at the hands of the SKs or their minions. Fortunately, none were ever tied back to Oronis, who has become paranoid about revealing the process to anyone else, as it seems to be a death sentence, and his guilty conscience can't handle the guilt of knowing he's been responsible for yet another close, personal friends' death in that way (plus his self-preservation instincts makes him aware that if more Avangions appear, it will continue to draw the attention of his former peers, something he is far from ready for). And Oronis, by himself, despite being a SK, is not powerful enough to confront his former "peers", not by a long shot.
The twist is -- Oronis' efforts are basically all for naught. No matter how much he tries to transform the world in small ways back to the green it once was, the amount he has done is like a drop of water in a barrel -- it is insignificant. There needs to be more Avangions, and he refuses to show the rituals and process to become an Avangion to anyone else (and it isn't a process that people just figure out, it is something he must teach to others). So the so-called "hope" that Avangions might bring, is false, there is no hope... It just plain is too late for the world.
Then, again, I have the world ending within 50 years of when I start my campaigns... basically, the sun goes nova and destroys everything. How's that for hopeless?
I keep getting the feeling that those who only accept the original boxed set as the TRUE CANON (TM) are being elitist. If this is true, then should we also ignore everything in Slave Tribes, and Dune Trader as well?
I believe the design team of the original boxed set knew about Rajaat and the Blue Age, but were waiting until it came out in the novels before putting it into the game.
The evidence comes from personally interviewing Troy Denning.
The same guy who made DS fans vomit hatred due to his novels?
The same guy who authored the Wanderer's Journal, considered by most of those same as the bible of Dark Sun flavor. You are seriously going to throw out everything the man speaks about because of your personal distaste over the progress of some novels? 'K.
Criticizing the factualness (whether it was true) in his statement of what went on during the original design of the setting based on the outcome of the plot of his novels seems entirely a non sequitur.
Didn't I say I loved his novels? I think I did. I just didn't follow them (like many) in the game. I certainly wouldn't disregard anything simply because of what novels did. I was just stating a fact, that many people hated what his novels did to the setting. And while I find his insight interesting, it doesn't mean diddly when it boils down to what was published in the game material. Which was canon. (see avangion) Just like with Gygax. Very interesting opinions, but they don't change anything. The game moves on.
No need to get defensive, there's nothing to defend. I'm a troy denning fan. But troy can say that avangions have no place in darksun, but that's just his opinion. Avangions are a part of darksun, just like the dragon and a very interesting and cool part, also! I'm also a huge fan of the wanderer's journal, if that means anything. I probably read it a hundred times when I was younger, like many.
Didn't I say I loved his novels? I think I did.
I didn't say you didn't like his novels. I figured you mentioned fans distaste for his novels for a reason.
I just didn't follow them (like many) in the game. I certainly wouldn't disregard anything simply because of what novels did. I was just stating a fact, that many people hated what his novels did to the setting.
So, you admit bringing up a non sequitur? *nods*.
And while I find his insight interesting, it doesn't mean diddly when it boils down to what was published in the game material. Which was canon. (see avangion)
That Troy disliked avangions is totally an opinion. I agree. It is an opinion I share. That avangions were tacked on after the original boxed set design is not an opinion. However, I never said it wasn't canon. Canon grows. Dark Sun canon also grew with surfing druids. ;)
Speaking of getting defensive, what's with people getting all up in arms over my dislike of avangions. The hypersensitivity is tremendously off-putting. I describe avangions as a tacked on add-on, and people mis-read that as me implying they were inventions from the Revised era. I state I hope they are one of the tacked on add-ons that doesn't make it to a 4e revision, and some misread that as me being tyranically old-skool dismissive of everything post-original boxed set.
But troy can say that avangions have no place in darksun, but that's just his opinion.
Of course. Thought that was obvious. *shrug*
Avangions are a part of darksun, just like the dragon and a very interesting and cool part, also!.
I agree they are part of early Dark Sun. I don't agree they necessarily must come along to new editions. Looks like 4e has dispensed with the preserver and defiler classes, merging them into a single class defined by choice at casting time. Avangion/Dragon is an artifact of that arbitrary class-based distinction. The defiler class had dragon as the advanced being option, compulsive symmetry applied and avangions were invented to give preservers an "equivalent" advanced being option.
We have had the class distinction thrown out with 4e, so why must the avangion/dragon distinction remain? Most people don't see a good reason not to have them anymore, I don't see a good reason to keep them anymore. IMO, it is more interesting that arcane casters that choose to preserve can become a dragon, surviving the insane-stage is the kicker
. . . If they are going earn a mention, I be okay with avangions being a legendary myth that never earns a stat block and is never verified in printed material an actual real thing. I'd rather they exist as yet another false hope.I believe that Dragon Kings was planned before the Boxed set hit the shelves, but they did not divulge what the SK's were so it was a shock when it was discovered in the novels.
I will agree that the looks of the Avangion does not inspire me to have a character become one, but I belive the concept behind it is sound and would make a good Epic Destiny, as do Dragons, Advanced Being Clerics for Elemental Priests and Spirit of the Land for primal characters.
the only, only thing i hated about avangions was the art design. i thought they looked RE-tarded. i totally was cool with the idea of an avangion, but in my games i drew up my own version to show the players what it looked like. the leaf-butterfly-gray-alien-no-arm-leg-thing was about as stupid as it could get IMO. if they're included, please for the love of all the dark gods of the far realm, PLEASE redesign their look. pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!?!
I'm with you. I LOVE the concept, but thought the look was a bit sissified. However, if I remember correctly, the dragons differed in their appearances as they guided their own transformations. Why can't avangions do the same, to a degree?
Anondson, my appologies if I became defensive, when you said "post-original-boxed-set tacked on inventions" it brought to mind the long discussion in the History and Mystery thread (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...) and how certain people feel their vision that the Original Boxes set is the only true Athas.
Heh, it's all good!
the only, only thing i hated about avangions was the art design. i thought they looked RE-tarded. i totally was cool with the idea of an avangion, but in my games i drew up my own version to show the players what it looked like. the leaf-butterfly-gray-alien-no-arm-leg-thing was about as stupid as it could get IMO. if they're included, please for the love of all the dark gods of the far realm, PLEASE redesign their look. pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!?!
I'm with you. I LOVE the concept, but thought the look was a bit sissified. However, if I remember correctly, the dragons differed in their appearances as they guided their own transformations. Why can't avangions do the same, to a degree?
i totally agree. i always thought it was cool when each dragon was able to shape its own metamorphosis in some of the books...or each had their own unique look. some would say this was merely illusions and glamours placed about them to hide their true form (that of a scaly and monstrous reptilian dragon). in the end i figured each avangion would also transform in its own unique way as well.
I figured you mentioned fans distaste for his novels for a reason.
I did, because I find it funny that people claim denning damn near ruined the setting with the CS novel, yet when it comes to something they perceive as not fitting the setting, they use it as ammunition, like it holds any weight. The guy "who knows what darksun is" "nearly ruined" the setting he's suppose to know so well. I don't think he ruined the setting, but I never allowed the novels or the revised box set to dictate what my game would be like.
That avangions were tacked on after the original boxed set design is not an opinion.
Since I'v never seen this interview you're talking about, it's hearsay and I'll have to take your word for it. Although, anyone can claim that everything was "tacked on" after the first boxset. You know what they say about opinions, after all.
Dark Sun canon also grew with surfing druids.
I'v never had a problem with that in the least. I don't see why it's an issue. I guess athasians should never have thought to surf for some reason. But then, plenty of people simply didn't like the last sea region at all, as "it wasn't darksun". An opinion I'v never shared. Not everything darksun has to connect to desert. That's just one part of athas.
Speaking of getting defensive, what's with people getting all up in arms over my dislike of avangions.
You'd have to ask someone who got defensive. I was just posting my opinion like everyone else. Everyone likes different things, which most adults understand. Being bothered by someone having different tastes is beyond my understanding. It's actually something I value. Else we would have only a single D&D setting and every single game would be the exact same. Thank god for different opinions and tastes.
As for avangions in 4e, it's a perfect ED for preservers. Enough people enjoyed avangions to include them. The one thing we don't need is less 4e material for DS. As for preserver dragons, I'm not following that in the least, but that's the great thing about this hobby. I don't have to, in order for you to enjoy them!
I always loved the idea of Keltis, a Socerer King who felt guilt for the attempted genocide he had been involved in, who turned his back on his past and went down a better path of attonement and was reborn as the only being of light on the world, Oronis. To me, this is the kind of thing D&D is all about!
The idea of the Avangion fits in perfectly with the whole 4E "pinnacle of light" idea. I mean, what is the point in playing Dark Sun if there is not even the glimmer of hope?
If you want doom and gloom at all times, go and play Call of Cthulhu.
Oh and who decides what is "cannon" and what is "tacked on"? As far as I am concerned, the Dragon Kings book was a fully fledged hard-back produced by TSR. How much "cannon" do you need?
There's no indication that they're including Oronis in 4e, so it may be up to the DM whether Oronis is there, doesn't exist, or is just a repentant sorcerer-king trying to become an avangion.
Having grown up with the Dark Crystal, I don't have all that much of a problem with the avangion's appearance. Could it be cooler? Yes. Could it be worse? Just as easily. I'll probably go with the standard appearance, but if my players manage to get to level 30 and want to start at level 1 in the new world of Athas they've shaped, I'll go God Emperor of Dune on them and have the (now-npc) Avangion turn into a tyrannical giant worm after a few thousand years.
Thank god for different opinions and tastes.
Indeed, as I have just been reminded, you know what they say about opinions after all. . . *cough*