Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 magonis Feb 22, 2010 1:27:21	(I know most of this info is redundant considering you all know and love DS, but I'm just copy-pasting from another forum, so.. sorry!) Ok, here's the setting.  I'm running a campaign for a group of friends, right now there are two people and myself, relatively shortly there will be a third.  I've decided I wanted to run a homebrew Dark Sun setting campaign, I just couldn't wait for the official release of the materials so I took the base setting of the world, including city names and such and made it my own.  Before getting into this I made sure to remind my players that this will be different than what they are used to.  I'm having them keep track of water, which has been relatively easy so long as I remember to tell them they drink one "ration" of water at each extended rest.  There seems to be no problem with that aspect and the players seem to enjoy it.  Also, I reminded them that the world is a harsh place... and to be a hero/make a name for themselves/whatever, it would not be so simple as picking up a sword one day and killing the local goblins.  In fact, surviving from day to day is considered an accomplishment most of the time.  Until the players reach the Paragon level, in fact, they are going to have to put significant effort into their characters survival.  It is severely dangerous to leave the city walls. With this being said, my players rolled up a couple of gladiators (Good aligned the both of 'em.  Battlemind ((Using the preview in Character Creator, basically)) and a Barbarian.) who had somehow won their freedom.  Now, since I warned them about the world beforehand they both surmised that for their characters to ever want to leave the city they would have to be a bit crazy.  Neither of their characters fear death. Ok, now that that's all said, herein lies the problem. One of my players (Goliath (Half-Giant) Barbarian) absolutely LOVES this world.  He likes the fact that they are having to fight for survival and the roleplaying funness that accompanies it.  My other player is disenchanted.  (Dwarven Battlemind)  The world simply turns him off it seems.  I first noticed this when we had our first combat encounter.  The group got attacked by a hive of Kruthik in the middle of the desert.  The combat went well, they and another guard (Companion Character) took out a majority of the Kruthik.  But I wanted to show my players that the desert is a VERY dangerous place to be and so I had planned to bring out a second wave led by a Hive Leader.  It was decided that they should try to run away.  However they could not travel on the wagons fast enough to get away from the speedy bugs... So the quick thinking barbarian (Hah.) decided to throw one of the gangly half-elf slaves out of the caravan to feed the bugs... thiking mainly for the groups survival as a whole.  The plan worked, but in the end they had to run from the combat rather than win.  Shortly after, encountered elven raiders... Successful skill challenge later, they got off just giving up one of the remaining slaves. (2 remaining.) Promised to be at water within a week, they brought only enough water for that time... when they didn't arrive at said time, it was revealed that this caravan master was inexperienced and didn't exactly know where he was going.  That's where we ended basically.  The PCs running very low on water... (Only having 1 ration left a piece at this point.) And they do not have anywhere close that they know of to get any more. Anyways, sorry for the longness, but the backstory to this I feel is crucial for imformative feedback.  At the end of the session I knew he wasn't enjoying it nearly as much as the other guy, so I asked him what the problem was... He said that he didn't like having water be such an important resource.  He didn't like how it was the trump of all.   Brought up the point that once they got to the water, why would they ever leave?  I told him that's an excellent point and that he'd have to wait and see what happens.  But he still seems disenchanted.  I have other info if you'd like, but this post has taken a while and is really long.  If you want to know more, please ask, otherwise I'd like to know what I should do to make this more interesting for him?  I don't think he's a lost cause, but I don't know what to do otherwise?
#2 big_goon Feb 22, 2010 11:17:59	I have two things to add, one is an easy fix and the other is less so: 1. Roll with it: Your situation might work out really well. The Dwarven Battlemind happens to be playing a Dwarf. Dwarves, in general, care less about finding water than other races because of their focus and hardyness - and once they do find water, they tend to stick around long enough to get their fill, a "dwarven" rest... and perhaps a little longer. The other characters require more water and should be more anxious to get to that spring - especailly the half-giant who's larger and requires even more water than your average folk (although this mechanic doesn't spell out in the rules for 4e yet). The player IS actually playing his race role well. So I say, roll with it. Give him something else to think about and give him an extra day before rolling for dehydration. 2. Water IS important. Don't get me wrong... but there are countless other harsh environmental effects on Dark Sun that are likewise hellish (uh... literally). I sometimes find that Water is a little too emphasized by DMs and that this emphasis is misplaced. It's neither unique, nor fantastic, nor sci fi... nor whatever. It's realistic, it's not special, it's just water. People play DnD to fight monsters, win treasure, and role-play. People play Dark Sun to run slave caravans, battle poisonous cactuses and angry cloud rays, win out-of-this-world treasure and role-play wild harsh evil eyed characters. There's a knife at everyone's back because everyone has a knife out! ...and we just spent 3 sessions braving a sandstorm, crossing a sand dune and the dark sun to find... H2O. I don't want to belittle the requirements to have water, because it is important (I'm going to get so much heck about this). But I can also understand this Dwarven battlemind having little interest in chasing water when he could be playing with another group and fighting Orcs and Goblins and Dragons in Dragonlance. A quick way to deal with water (or rations in general) is to put the ball on the players' lap. If they're running out of water (1 day left) let the players have a discussion and choose the best alternative. Should they turn around? Should they raid the Elves back? Should they trust the Caravan Master? Should they use their own skills to find water? Should they find a critter and take the critter's cache? Or risk attacking a vegetable/cactus? Psionically find a source? Contact a water cleric? There are tons of ways to survive in the desert, so don't make a blanket statement and say they have no water... but make sure to highlight the consequences of each idea and let the players choose their fate. Should they do well, and find a source... don't just give them water and XP, but maybe another reward for their efforts? What I'm trying to says is: Treat the water rations as a means to regulate the number of "extended rests" a party needs to take. Give them one ration before heading into a dungeon. That means they only gets ONE extended rest before being forced to retreat or find an alternative. OR use it to regulate the amount of territory they can cross: "you can't free yourself from the slave caravan until you get that ration and that extended rest". Don't make it the main plot. My 2 ceramics...
#3 Tsuul Feb 22, 2010 13:31:09	Use water as more of a plot device. Instead of always running out, have the characters and ALL caravaneers carry more then enough for the just in case scenerios. Don't just carry enough to get to your next water fillup spot, instead carry enough to get to the one after. Water spots draw in predetor and prey alike (humanoid as well as monster/animal).  Runaway slaves, nobles, and everyone inbetween are forced to come to these spots. This is a huge opportuity for RP in the middle of a desert. Take advantage of these meeting points. It is quite possible that a group is already at the waterspot and uses it as an oportunity to rob/kill/extort. Do the players deal with the group or move on to the next waterspot, risk dipping into their reserves, and hope they get access.
#4 jimsmaher Feb 22, 2010 14:13:46	There could be a small tribe of Elven kank-herders who wander by.  For some reason they're hostile ... territorial, bad-blood with the caravan leader(s)/group, they moon-light as raiding desert bandits, etc.  I'm pretty sure dwarves hate elves on Athas. When they're defeated, the caravan/group claims the kank herd and the supply of kank-nectar.  Each globule supplies one water-ration.  There are special rules about consuming only Kank-nectar.  Homebrew rules typically go something like; more than X within time period Y = (-) modifiers cumulative till regular water/food consumed.  Think of it like honey, not a lot of nutrients there. Or maybe some killer-cacti, which would offer water-rations when consumed (after combat, of course).  And to bring the dwarf some honour in the killing, give the plant extra vicious tentacles with hooks and barbs, and a glorific name to boot! "OH NO!" cries the caravan master, "THE DREADED GORMONGER!" Also, if it helps, kill off the caravan master for just-desserts.
#5 magonis Feb 22, 2010 14:35:42	Hmm...  I'm liking what I'm seeing.  I'm glad I decided to post here.  You guys understand the setting and what I'm going through.  I completely understand your point Big_Goon, water is important but it shouldn't be the focus.  And right now, it is.  I think I much rather like the idea of when they have to refill their supplies because for some reason they ran out, or are just trying to replenish along the way that there will be some difficulties getting said water.  For some reason I've been under the assumption that the oasis they are going to find is mostly deserted... which makes absolutely no sense.  I also like the idea of handling their rations in a way that controls the amount of extended rests they'd be allowed to take.  I think my players would LOVE that idea.  They are very tactically minded and it would add a lot to the RP in those situations. And I TOTALLY plan on them finding some killer-cacti next session, before they reach the oasis.  I can't wait to see the look on the dwarf players face...  Heh.  Thanks guys!  Any other ideas would be helpful, this is honestly my first time running Dark Sun, I'll be honest with you.  It's homebrewed, yes, but I'm trying to stick as close to traditional as I can, because I simply love the setting.
#6 therion666 Feb 22, 2010 15:37:11	The beauty of the Dark Sun setting is the requirment for water which'll drive players into an encounter they find a waterhole but there are predators (or their could be predators hiding in wait when they arrive). I had my previous group hunting a Basilisk to drink it's blood for food and water. Other options I put upon my players was that there water had been destroyed by an elf attack and they had to fight a huge psionic cactus with tentacles (think I used a kraken) what they fought and killed to get to the water reserves in it's body to give them enough water to get to their destination. Any player of Darksun needs to get with the starting goal at low levels which is survive, then move into the next goal to rise in status( achieve things that make the players popular) then move to the ultimate goal, maybe set up their own city or kill a Dragon King and take over a city. It's an awesome setting, my players are chomping at the bit for me to start another campaign of Darksun. I've not got Players Handbook 3 so havn't got the Psionic thing sorted out with 4E. I'm also curious to see what happens with Defilers and Preservers and what you've done with them. I'd like to hear how it's going?
#7 DoctorBadWolf Feb 26, 2010 5:10:17	There's also always the option of letting the whole survival as an accomplishment in itself bit play third or fourth fiddle to the other interesting things about/in the setting. I know someone will yell at me for saying it, but it's true. Not every DS campaign needs to focus on just surviving the passive (non directly creature related) dangers of Athas, even in the heroic tier, even in the desert. There are plenty of active dangers to contend with, that if players are going to have more fun overcoming those challenges, they're what should be focused on. just some thoughts.
#8 xlorep_darkhelm Feb 26, 2010 15:12:24	There's also always the option of letting the whole survival as an accomplishment in itself bit play third or fourth fiddle to the other interesting things about/in the setting. I know someone will yell at me for saying it, but it's true. Not every DS campaign needs to focus on just surviving the passive (non directly creature related) dangers of Athas, even in the heroic tier, even in the desert. There are plenty of active dangers to contend with, that if players are going to have more fun overcoming those challenges, they're what should be focused on. just some thoughts. People who live in a desert environment have already learned a lot (having been dealing with it their whole lives) with regards to surviving the passive hostilities like water shortage. Water shortage has not really ever been a major or primary plot point for Dark Sun. The real survival, like DoctorBadWolf mentioned, would be focused more on the bizarre and deadly creatures that have been adapted for a very hostile world. For example -- a large cat is dangerous enough, but one that can use psionics to hunt its prey with -- far more deadly.
#9 evisc Feb 27, 2010 0:18:24	Water(and other survival related things) shouldn't be used as a tracked game resource.  It should be a plot device only.  The water runs out when it makes for a good story.  Players shouldn't have to hassle themselves constantly tracking it and worrying about it. Use "you need water" as the plot hook, like you would use something like "save the princess" in a regular D&D game.  A Dark Sun adventure should play out pretty similarly to a standard D&D adventure, just with a different tone.  You are still going to go out and kill monsters for xp and magic items.  It's just that your character is doing it to steal some water rather than saving a princess or whatever.  And don't overuse this particular plothook, as searching for water every week is just as boring as saving a princess every week.
#10 ViolenceJack Feb 27, 2010 19:08:55	Hmm... not the thread I was hoping for. I was going to recommend clubbing the player in question over the head and tying them to a chair, only ungagging them when it's their turn and making sure they have enough range of motion to roll dice. Ah, well.
#11 faradaycage Feb 28, 2010 16:38:18	Water(and other survival related things) shouldn't be used as a tracked game resource.  It should be a plot device only.  The water runs out when it makes for a good story.  Players shouldn't have to hassle themselves constantly tracking it and worrying about it. Use "you need water" as the plot hook, like you would use something like "save the princess" in a regular D&D game.  A Dark Sun adventure should play out pretty similarly to a standard D&D adventure, just with a different tone.  You are still going to go out and kill monsters for xp and magic items.  It's just that your character is doing it to steal some water rather than saving a princess or whatever.  And don't overuse this particular plothook, as searching for water every week is just as boring as saving a princess every week. I think I would disagree on this point.  It's not painfully difficult to keep track of water and the players can bring several gallons each if they use pack animals when leaving cities/oases.  That's enough for a few days' journey. A constant water hunt is boring, but it shouldn't come up much.  All the major cities sell water at a reasonable price as well as the various towns and forts in the wild.  Granted, at the start of a Dark Sun campaign its bound to be a driving force as your players often may start out stranded in some way. Use water as a reminder of danger.  The players should be smart enough to carry as much as they need, but they are aware that disaster may strike at any time.  If raiders make off with their waterskins at night or a defiler evaporates their supply in the middle of the wastes, THAT'S when it becomes a plot point.
#12 Pennarin Feb 28, 2010 16:51:17	Since 4e no longer has group overland magical flight, or group teleportation, even a paragon tier party who gets caught by a field of predatory cacti that shoot spines, piercing water containers, will have to walk to a water hole to get more water and will trigger thirst-related effects (penalties, conditions, and skill challenges), especially when you're four days into an eight day wasteland trek.
#13 RalofTyr Mar 02, 2010 19:38:01	Use a pencil and don't forget to shade properly.