Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap Jun 15, 2011 8:41:10	When the sorcerer kings bestow power upon templars, that magic is considered arcane, correct?  So, outside of wizards and sorcerers who may develop thier magic on thier own, are there any other power sources that can grant power to mortals? Example, are there powerful beings hidden in remote locations that could grant arcane power to servants, similar to templars?  Are the any monsters that support this theory?  templars are not subject to defiling magic rules, so these serverants of some unknown power would, likewise, not be subject to defiling, but rather would just have an arcane power source. Are there any other power sources NPC's/Monsters can tap into without defiling being an option?  I know there is primal for shamans, ect...but have about the grey?  Or the black (if it exists) etc?
#2 MalakLightfoot Jun 15, 2011 12:30:57	Not quite sure what you are asking. The only power source that is restricted on Athas is Divine. There are no gods, therefore there are no gods from which to draw power. Primal, Psionic, Arcane, Shadow, Elemental, Martial are all powr sources available to Dark Sun characters. Only Arcane characters need worry about Defiling, and even Sorcerer King Pact Warlocks defile. The Sorcerer Kings themselves are powerful Defilers. The difference between Templars and other Arcane casters is that they get a free pass to Defile while in territories controlled by their Sorcerer King (just as long as it doesn't take place anywhere near the Sorcerer King's Tree(s) of Life). All of the other entities with which a Warlock might make a Pact are still valid. Infernal Pacts could be made with Demon Lords of the Elemental Chaos. Fey Pacts could be made with the few remaining Fey Lords. Star Pacts could be made with the monsters of the Far Realm. Reflections of dead gods or spirits of dead heroes could forge a Vestige Pact, etc.
#3 ultimate_cap Jun 15, 2011 14:06:52	YOu may not have quite understood what I was asking Malak, but I think you've answered it decently well! ;o) That's pretty much what I am looking for.  For example, shadow, let's say...it is a "power source" so I could run clerics (as monsters) re-flavoring what they do to shadow (and that's a broad example, but hopefully, you understand what I mean). Your reply seems to mostly address warlocks, but I'm thinking larger then just warlocks.  Clerics, for example, get thier power from a deity of some sort.  That's what I'm looking for...other sources of that power.  Something beside what the SKs would grant thier templars and something that, in the end, is still "NOT" divine in nature. A temple of evil priests that are drawing upon shadow magic could work quite well.  I want something that's not divine, and also is not subject to defiling. (I even though about using divine as well, but it's an evil divine...or could be shadow, heh, heh)
#4 siromega Jun 15, 2011 19:51:50	That E-Divine classes both work straight out of the box for Dark Sun if you ask me, because the Cavalier and Blackguard work off of their own purity/corruption, and Cavalier for the most part fit the part of almost no divine because how frequent is someone who is a paragon of a vituous soul? It's shadowy antithesis the Blackguard works alright (Fury better than Greed, because of the sheer poverty), although hilariously enough there's already a Black Guard under the command of Tect. The Warpriest works off of Domains - Death is Universal, Earth could work, Sun? C'Mon, it's Dark Sun, Storm maybe not so much (Sand storm way more likely than Thunderstorm). Also in responce to Malak, Psionics have to worry about Defiling too if they so choose to at Paragon (and who wouldn't? 1 feat to reroll your dailies attack or damage? That's awesome!) The fluff behind it (purely imo) is that they can will life energy at that point (reminicint of the lifeshaping I've heard so much about). Not a big fan of the Elemental Power Source, i think Shaman and Sorcerer fill that void fine as it is. The only thing that's missing might be a pure Elementalist mage school or whatever.
#5 Alex_ Jun 15, 2011 22:23:21	Shamans aren't the only primal characters that draw on the spirits.  Barbarians surrender their bodies to spirits while raging, granting them many preternatural abilities while doing so.  Wardens take on the traits of various spirits in order to transform their bodies, and Druids do this to an even greater degree.  Seekers don't function without the cooperation of primal spirits- which accompany many of their signature abilities.   Sometimes the relationship is mutualy beneficial.  Sometimes the character has the upper hand and forces the spirit into servitude (like Gulg's templars).  I'd also imagine that there are a number of individuals who are subserviant to the spirits.  If the oasis you depended on for water was ruled by a primal spirit who could kick your arse, you might have to do what it wants to get a drink.
#6 ultimate_cap Jun 15, 2011 23:00:28	So, arcane and shadow are actually two seperate, different power sources, correct (forgive me, don't have the heroes of Shadow, not sure how that works).
#7 siromega Jun 15, 2011 23:21:50	Shadow is it's own source but rarely is it a source by itself. It likes to function along side other power sources. Shadow is as different from Arcane as Divine is from Martial and Psionic is from Primal.
#8 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 8:58:03	Shadow is it's own source but rarely is it a source by itself. It likes to function along side other power sources. Shadow is as different from Arcane as Divine is from Martial and Psionic is from Primal. Thanks Omega, that's a nice concise comparison.  And I'm liking the shadow idea as a power source.  Again, I'm creating a "larger" antagonist in my DS game, something big outside of the SKs, and want them to have the ability to grant power to thier servants (ie: similiar to a cleric, but not devine).  I think Shadow is looking better and better.
#9 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 10:21:17	Here's a question (not sure if this needs it's own thread or not) but, say you have a martial or primal character who picks up a magic item that has a daily (or other) power, and that power has a keyword of Arcane...can that character, even though he's not a wizard, using defiling? I would rule no, unless you are a wizard or sorcerer (arcane class) you have no control over the power embedded in the weapon, beyond simply using it.
#10 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 10:29:19	That E-Divine classes both work straight out of the box for Dark Sun if you ask me, because the Cavalier and Blackguard work off of their own purity/corruption, and Cavalier for the most part fit the part of almost no divine because how frequent is someone who is a paragon of a vituous soul? It's shadowy antithesis the Blackguard works alright (Fury better than Greed, because of the sheer poverty), although hilariously enough there's already a Black Guard under the command of Tect. The Warpriest works off of Domains - Death is Universal, Earth could work, Sun? C'Mon, it's Dark Sun, Storm maybe not so much (Sand storm way more likely than Thunderstorm). Also in responce to Malak, Psionics have to worry about Defiling too if they so choose to at Paragon (and who wouldn't? 1 feat to reroll your dailies attack or damage? That's awesome!) The fluff behind it (purely imo) is that they can will life energy at that point (reminicint of the lifeshaping I've heard so much about). Not a big fan of the Elemental Power Source, i think Shaman and Sorcerer fill that void fine as it is. The only thing that's missing might be a pure Elementalist mage school or whatever. Does the elemental power source draw upon the abyss or the elemental chaos?  Where does this come from?  Would creatures from the far realm use the elemental power source (obviously they can use whatever I wnat them to, but as a general rule??)? Again, looking for an extremely "alien" type antagonist for the setting, what would you say works best...shadow or elemental (again, not above divine, but an evil, corrupt/alien divine).
#11 HarbringerOfNok Jun 16, 2011 11:35:52	Shadow is it's own source but rarely is it a source by itself. It likes to function along side other power sources. Shadow is as different from Arcane as Divine is from Martial and Psionic is from Primal. Thanks Omega, that's a nice concise comparison.  And I'm liking the shadow idea as a power source.  Again, I'm creating a "larger" antagonist in my DS game, something big outside of the SKs, and want them to have the ability to grant power to thier servants (ie: similiar to a cleric, but not devine).  I think Shadow is looking better and better. Alternative Antagonists: A Thri-Kreen/Thor-Kreen Elder or God. 2e ended with the Thri-Kreen preparing for a massive invasion of the tablelands. Thier empire lies way north of the ringing mountains. Thri-Kreen and the Rhilusti were the first races on Athas if memory serves correctly. The Three Psion Lords: Ancient psionicists long dead but they were of such great power that their psyches lived on. Crazed Primal or Elemental Lords. Ancient Halfling Rhilusti (life shapers) and of course.... Rajaat. All of these are potential antagonists whom may be able to directly or indirectly provide a power source to their followers. As for other power sources - the Pristine Tower acted as a conduit for access to power from the sun and black (arcane in nature). After Rajaat escaped, the remaining storm that persisted in his wake - the Cerulean Storm - provided another source for arcane energy.
#12 Alex_ Jun 16, 2011 13:32:39	Here's a question (not sure if this needs it's own thread or not) but, say you have a martial or primal character who picks up a magic item that has a daily (or other) power, and that power has a keyword of Arcane...can that character, even though he's not a wizard, using defiling? I would rule no, unless you are a wizard or sorcerer (arcane class) you have no control over the power embedded in the weapon, beyond simply using it.    As far as I can tell, there are no items that let a martial or primal character cast an arcane spell.   The only items that possess powers with an arcane keyword are intelligent items, and the item itself is the one doing the casting of the spell.  I would imagine that the item decides whether or not it wants to defile. Does the elemental power source draw upon the abyss or the elemental chaos?  Where does this come from?  Would creatures from the far realm use the elemental power source (obviously they can use whatever I wnat them to, but as a general rule??)? Again, looking for an extremely "alien" type antagonist for the setting, what would you say works best...shadow or elemental (again, not above divine, but an evil, corrupt/alien divine).  There is no "Elemental Power Source".  When the primordials defeated the gods and essentially ran off the source of Divine magic.  This "broke" the world and introduced the Arcane power source.  The Arcane power source was generally flawed and rampant use of it ended up tearing the world apart.   People began to turn to Psonics and Primal magic as alternatives.   That said, the Primordials can very much fill the void of "alien gods".  Their motivations are entirely unknown, and their efforts have warped/corrupted the nature of the world.  In places where the elemental chaos bleeds through, it results in unnatural phenomena.  Parts of the world are now warped and contaminated by magical influences.   There is rumored to be a primordial that lives in the Silt Sea.  It resembles a gigantic kraken, has some hard to pronounce name with a Z or k, some dashes or apostrophes somewhere in there (I forget exactly), and is worshiped by a small cult that offers it sacrifices in the hopes of averting its wrath.  Its presence is believed to be the reason why the Silt Sea exists and why the silt doesn't behave the way it's supposed to.
#13 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 15:26:59	Harbinger and Alex, thanks for the replies.  Awsome stuff, really.  This has been a fun thread giving me lots of ideas.  Funny, Harbinger, I actually AM planning on using the thri-kreen as the evil antagonist "foot soliders" as it were.  Thri-kreen are not going to be a playable race in my game.  They will be heavily re-flavored to a "hive-mind" like enemy of ruthless effeciency, and if I go the "dark god/primordial/Chthulu" route, they perfectly fit the "alien-like" feel I am going for! I am just tossing options around in my head for what I want that evil/alien source of power to be. I like the black/shadowfell.  Could be something that originates from a domain within. I like the Thri-Kreen elder god idea (Chthulu like) that Harbiner posted above I like the idea of it being a primordial or sorts, infusing it's servants with elemental power. And, I'm still not opposed to using a divine source or dark twisted might. And I suppose I can assign any "type" of damage I want (necrotic, force, arcane, ect).  I don't really need to worry about the source so much I guess (as far as what the power is, I just need know they big, evil thing grants power to it's followers...but dang, that sound divine to me).
#14 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 17:08:28	One other thing I started to consider as well, I can still use arcane and just not worry about the baddies defling.  Not that it's thier choice per say, but maybe they just don't know how to pull that additional power from the land.  After all, in 4e, the default casting method is preserving.
#15 Alex_ Jun 17, 2011 12:41:05	One other thing I started to consider as well, I can still use arcane and just not worry about the baddies defling.  Not that it's thier choice per say, but maybe they just don't know how to pull that additional power from the land.  After all, in 4e, the default casting method is preserving.   It depends on who they are and the circumstances.   The Veiled Alliance consists of arcane casters who thing defiling is bad.   The Sorcerer Kings and Templars just want power, and don't care if their defling messes up the land.   Then there are individual spellcasters who aren't with the Alliance or the Sorcerer Kings.  Some don't defile because they don't want to hurt the land, or make it known that they are defiliers.  Others choose to defile because they got into arcane magic to get power and defling means even more power.   Think of defilign as using dark side of the force.  It has consequences, both negative and positive.  It's tempting, but sometimes the negatives outweigh the positives.  Whether or not an arcanist decides to use it depends on how power hungry or desperate they are at the time.
#16 ultimate_cap Jun 17, 2011 13:33:17	Thanks Again for the input Alex.  I think what I am looking to do though is insert a "different" type of magic in to the game.  Something alien (again, maybe divine) that doesn't have a choice in the defling matter (again, outside of arcantist's that also dabble in magic). Then again, you present a good point in that, maybe I shouldn't worry about that...maybe that threat of battling a collection of defilers would make the situation even more dangerous? Food for thought at the least.
#17 mach4 Jun 17, 2011 16:56:01	The merged Grey (necromantic) and Black (shadow magic) may very well be so adverse to normal life that defiling is not a choice for casters tapping into those energy sources. The actual effects could even differ vastly from standard defiling. Tapping into the Grey to fuel casting could result in rotted yet still living vegetation (undead crab grass that no standard lawn fertilizer could kill off for that lush green carpet look you always wanted). Tapping into say Far Realm style powers or planes could twist and mutate the region instead of simply defiling it. Since these (or any other methodology you devise) are not actively drawing out the life force from the plant life around the caster to power the spells, the effects could even do something completely different than defiling such as someone tapping the Black causing shadows around to twist and leap, possibly even animate briefly to lash out for minor damage or status effects rather than the typical defiling effects. Also, powers or energies from granted sources do not have to be divine. They can be a taught or learned aspect like a lot of existing arcane, they are just taught through the whispers of divine beings and not simply granted upon prayer as a blessing or boon to a follower (meaning that one cannot have it taken away like a cleric who has turned away from his or her god).
#18 BRJN Jul 06, 2011 19:48:31	... but maybe they just don't know how to pull that additional power from the land ... If your goal is to conquer the world, it is really stupid of you to destroy it in the process.  Doubly so in Athas, where you have to live with the consequences of the sorcerer-kings doing both at once. Although, an enemy defiler killing off his own minions (or bloodying all his Standard allies) to dish the PCs a serious hurting OUGHT to concentrate their attention.
#19 naxel Jul 07, 2011 6:39:30	I've envisioned, and tried to implement ways to use, a few different sources of power in my Athas. They mostly are inspired from tidbits from 2e Dark Sun but can easily be ported over via feat trees, themes, paragon paths, epic destinies, and magic items: -The Black -The Sun -Lifeshaping -Cerulean Storm I imagine the Black to be a sub-realm of the Grey, located deep within the heart of it - perhaps the Black is really another word for the Abyss (which puts it deep in the Elemental Chaos)! To me this means only the most powerful and vile of spellcasters can tap into it, making it a shadow power epic destiny which grants them defiling power second only to the Sorcerer-kings. In 2e, under circumstances I don't care about since I'm not otherwise too fond of the Prism Pentad changes, some girl became a Sun mage. Something like that might be specific to the sorcerer class, probably an epic destiny related to the cosmic option. In my Athas I envision the Sun as a power source to be effectively dead. It's good enough to provide light and heat for the planet, but millennia of abuse (powering the Pristine Tower during the Blue Age, immortalizing the Champions of Rajaat) have pretty much drained it. The Sun, in my vision, is actually tied to Taiia the Sun Goddess (Deities & Demigods, 3e). This may perhaps be why the divine power source isn't an option - it's run dry! Lifeshaping is a primal talent known only to halflings. It might be a paragon path or a feat which grants bonuses to item creation rituals, either of which would be halfling only. I've also pondered at the idea of a bloodline feat tree which all races can take that relates to the Rebirth, but don't know how I'd go about it. Again, in 2e, some stuff happened that I ignore but I still like the idea of this raging, furious storm. In my version I'd say it's something like a side-effect of Rajaat's prison naturally eroding over the millennia, and it mostly moves over the Sea of Silt harassing pirates and such. Tyr Storms are unknown, and it's not so much of a pseudo-hurricane as it is a roil of heat lightning, windstorms, and tornadoes. Storm sorcerers perhaps? A paragon path letting them use orbs as an implement? Or a Cerulean Lens orb implement with some bonuses that also lets sorcerers otherwise use it? Just some ways to tie in the 2e power sources to 4e
#20 khorne37 Jul 07, 2011 10:28:00	It sound's like you may want to have a Far Realm Incursion of some sort. It is alien and powerful and very lovecraftian. You could have a base in the sea of silt, in one of the numerous mines around the Tyr Region, you could have it in the ringing mountains and it enslaves halflings to go on murderous rampages or you could base it in the thikreen lands and it is beginging to move into the tyr region. I pick the Far Realm because I have always loved the Ithilliad and the Cthuluesc feel they give to the game. Plus the power source is not foriegn it is psionic very powerful and can be used for enslavement.
#21 ultimate_cap Jul 07, 2011 10:36:03	Nice!  Thanks for the further ideas and feedback guys.  I had pretty much thought this thread was dead, but nice to see further input and ideas!  So, Mach, BRJN, Naxel and Khorne, thanks for chiming in. Love all the angles Nax presented, nice stuff.  And Khonre, that's pretty much what I am doing ;oD
#22 ian.thomson Jul 08, 2011 7:14:48	Regarding clerics: in 4e DS, the gods did probably exist at some point, but are either dead or in hiding.  There's hints that Asmodeus (or his corpse) is hidden in the grey, that Torog is still hanging around the Underdark, and that Tharizdun might still have a temple (which Nibenay is keeping everyone away from).  Tharizdun isn't exactly something you can get rid of without without taking out huge chunks of the cosmology (*glances over at the Abyss and at demons*).  I actually did allow players the option of running divine characters, but they were restricted to worshipping select evil or chaotic evil gods (Zehir makes the setting more Conan-esque, and if Vecna can bust out of Ravenloft, he can certainly dodge some measly pathetic "universal apocalypse.") Creatures from the far realms, although rare, are still present in Dark Sun.  Something like Cthulhu might actually come across as beautiful to the Athasian mind, though ("A being who lives under mountains of water? Whose head looks like a creature that can only live in a world of water?"  *Sane lawful good character proceeds to spread Cthulhu worship around Athas, is later universally regarded as a saint*) If you're going for something completely "alien," a leftover angel would be quite alien to Dark Sun characters.  It wouldn't necessarily be alien for your players though, unless you can get them to really think Athasian (get them to forget that there's any beauty or mercy in the world) and then describe it in a way that's completely foreign to them (it's not shiny, it's blinding; it's not a nice pale like ivory, but pallid like dead flesh; and its prescence make the world all the more offensive).  (Alternatively, look up the original description for cherubim, those guys were freaky, not cute babies). Fluffwise, defiling is the default method of casting in 4e Dark Sun; it just doesn't cause problems until you cast more powerful spells (i.e. daily spells).  It's reasonable to assume that anyone who doesn't say "I'm a preserver, I only cast preserving spells" probably does leave ashen footprints when they cast.
#23 chaosfang Jul 14, 2011 5:22:49	Fluffwise, defiling is the default method of casting in 4e Dark Sun; it just doesn't cause problems until you cast more powerful spells (i.e. daily spells).  It's reasonable to assume that anyone who doesn't say "I'm a preserver, I only cast preserving spells" probably does leave ashen footprints when they cast. I'm gonna have to quote from the Dark Sun Campaign Guide (p.80) on this: "You are considered to be preserving unless you choose to defile." So while the DM can easily rule the other way, in 4E the default method of casting for players is preserving (as written in the book).  Even so, it doesn't make arcane magic any more legal in Athas, and non-players could easily gain power faster through defiling (power of plot and all), so it'd be easy to say that the default for casting in general would be defiling. Technically, in 4E there's no such thing as "preserving spells" or "defiling spells", just the ability to preserve the land or defile it... but whatever floats your boat *shrugs*
#24 ian.thomson Jul 14, 2011 10:38:30	I was speaking in terms of default fluff for the universe, not default mechanics for specifically the player characters. I never spoke of "preserving spells" or "defiling spells" as different spell lists or something, and assumed good faith that people would get that I was refering to spells cast by either method.  Even back in 2e, defilers and preservers used pretty much the same spell list (except for stuff like becoming a dragon or avangion).