Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hammerhead Dec 29, 2010 13:55:31	I never played 2e and Dark Sun wasn't in 3e so its new to me. One thing I wonder is in the previous editions what is the reason there are no gods on Athas? (primordials didn't exist until 4e i don't thing)
#2 phoenix_m Dec 29, 2010 14:29:34	Because the TSR "Powers That Be" said so.  Now as for an in-universe reason - that information was never given.  Each group I talked to had they're own theory - the gods were killed, cut-off, never existed/encountered.  My 3rd edition idea delt with Athas being on the far side of Far-Realm cut off from everything normal and help explains the wild mutations that happen Athas.
#3 Ozmodious Dec 29, 2010 15:38:58	I dont have the exact words but I was always understood it as there was a barrier that prevented spell jamming/ gods/ etc from entering Athas. No idea why there were no gods there originally but it was cool how 4th ed fit in the primordials as the reason for it.
#4 modern_iconoclast Dec 29, 2010 16:09:09	My hypothesis is that it was one of the fastest and easiest ways to make the world instantly more harsh and difficult; remove the cleric class and access to spell that create water easily.
#5 Bera Dec 29, 2010 16:28:23	Except they didn't remove the Cleric class, and water clerics could easily create some water. DS was simply radically different from other D&D worlds. Their innovative settings like Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms had become standard fantasy, so they made some settings that tried to be distant from the same sorts of traditional princess-saving and orc-slaying fantasy stereotypes. Eliminating the gods was one nice way to make DS different. DS didn't lend itself to mixing with TSR's other world-spanning adventures or campaigns either, so they distanced themselves from settings like Spelljammer and Planescape as well. There are no traditional deities in DS because they wanted a setting that wasn't a traditional fantasy setting.
#6 DontEatRawHagis Dec 29, 2010 23:52:39	Ditto on the theory that it was to create a unique campaign setting. I don't like High Fantasy and its one of the few settings thats story is simple(as far as general background) and unique. I probably wouldn't have started playing if it wasnt for Dark Sun. : I think one of the podcasts actually mentions why they got rid of the gods.
#7 Sysane Dec 30, 2010 13:20:59	The 2e reason for the lack of gods was that the Gray prevented Astral Conduits from reaching Athas. Astral Conduits allowed deities to receive power from their worshippers and for them to grant clerics spells.
#8 Alphastream Dec 30, 2010 13:40:13	Just to add to the discussion, from a design standpoint TSR wanted a "forsaken" feel. It is a fantasy apocalypse setting where the bad guys won and destroyed the planet. Whether there were or were not ever gods is far less important than the core concept that there is no hope. In the 2E material you find a lot of old temples and examples of forgotten gods. It isn't clear whether the temples ever had true gods... different D&D editions have had different ideas on what it takes to "power" a clergy and what defines "godhood", so it is all really a matter of interpretation. The most likely scenario, looking at the evidence, is probably that there was never any true pantheon or even single deity. However, entities were worshiped and this may have created some level of power in certain entities, of which none remain. This is to me very satisfying in that you can play around with the entity without removing the forsaken feel from the setting. You could unearth an entity once revered as a "deity" of nature, for example, and that would actually heighten the forsaken aspect rather than wreck it (especially if you treat it in DS style and have it crushed, killed, destroyed by something more powerful... like an SK). The first novel in the Pentad has a nice scene in UnderTyr where there is a temple. I like how they treat it, leaving it enigmatic rather than solving what it is for the players/reader. I would recommend against bringing any real deity into the setting or even answering that question for the players. One aspect to consider is the worship of the elements. That has an actual track record of producing results (many temples toward the end of the Green Age, plus actual elemental clerics in 2E - now shamans). A lot of what would be done with deities in a traditional setting can work well in true Athas style with the elements. The searing power of the Sun and Fire is far more fitting to Athas than a god like Pelor.
#9 xsv-violence Dec 30, 2010 18:28:29	The designer's also intended that the Sorcerer Kings were in essence Gods in the flesh and granted power to the Templars, and followed similar rules to the clerics of that edition. On top of that it was more of a science fiction setting, Psionics were the first to be developed before the primal and arcane. The Halflings of the first age used a science known as life shaping, and also made flying craft. They are responsible for the first cataclysm of Athas. In the end, they made one of the most unique settings for RPG's, too bad they don't do as well for novels.
#10 Pennarin Dec 31, 2010 0:49:21	Flying craft? I only recall living airships, as well as boats and (sea-based) floating cities.
#11 Sysane Dec 31, 2010 8:51:41	In 2e DS, psionics came into existence after primal (elemental) and arcane came about later in the Green Age.
#12 xsv-violence Jan 02, 2011 15:23:58	Flying craft? I only recall living airships, as well as boats and (sea-based) floating cities. If I recall correctly, there was also a craft that came from space that had three halflings from before the green age.
#13 RalofTyr Jan 02, 2011 19:50:38	Because the authors never bought the Gold-edition Box-set.
#14 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 12, 2011 16:25:13	" ... primordials ... " are a refluffing of previous edition material. They aren't really a problem. 4e hasn't changed the situation of the Draeden. Hopefully that'll stay. It is possible that the Abyss was spawned via a sleeping Draeden, waiting out the Gawds. So far it seems a smart strategy. The Spellplague nerfed the snot out of the carried over from 3e, Gawds. And Vecna and the Hand ... and the Sorc-Kings too. Was the Abyss nerfed? I'm not so sure about that. Relatively speaking, it's "bigger" than the Abyss of previous editions. Otherwise, yes you can blame everything 4e on The Spellplague.
#15 Grummore Jan 13, 2011 14:19:05	I never played 2e and Dark Sun wasn't in 3e so its new to me. One thing I wonder is in the previous editions what is the reason there are no gods on Athas? (primordials didn't exist until 4e i don't thing) I'm sorry, but Darksun 3.0 and 3.5 existed and still exist on the www.athas.org web site. All documents are very well done and there are tons of information.
#16 tentagil Jan 17, 2011 15:17:18	I never played 2e and Dark Sun wasn't in 3e so its new to me. One thing I wonder is in the previous editions what is the reason there are no gods on Athas? (primordials didn't exist until 4e i don't thing) I'm sorry, but Darksun 3.0 and 3.5 existed and still exist on the www.athas.org web site. All documents are very well done and there are tons of information. Yes, but not as official published works from WOTC, though WOTC recognizes them as official works I believe. Regardless if I remember correctly in the original its not that there were never gods but that the gods left, the reason never being explained.  The reason they can't return however is do to the Gray which encircles Athas and cuts it off from other worlds, though it is possible on occasion for things to get in, they can't get back out. Athas is a dying world though, the red sun indicating that its near the end of its life cycle and will eventually go super nova and thus destory Athas, though the planet would likely be dead from defiling even before that happens.
#17 awaken_D_M_golem Jan 18, 2011 16:12:58	Congratulations, Golem. You get today's Incoherence award. hmm ... you seem to be Not understanding something. What are you , not understanding?
#18 syrric Feb 03, 2011 11:06:51	if you read the old 2nd ed planescape and spell jammer settings that mention athas you get the feeling or at least i did that athas was created as a type of prototype world and cut off because it was deemed a failure/mistake
#19 Palladinae Feb 04, 2011 6:23:07	Actually, I never had such feeling. Keep in mind, that it were Sorcerer-Kings that shut their crystal sphere and closed it from incursions, so it happened after Cleansing Wars and rebellion against Rajaat.
#20 burntcrispy Feb 04, 2011 11:09:39	The Spellplague nerfed the snot out of the carried over from 3e, Gawds. And Vecna and the Hand ... and the Sorc-Kings too. Was the Abyss nerfed? I'm not so sure about that. Relatively speaking, it's "bigger" than the Abyss of previous editions. Otherwise, yes you can blame everything 4e on The Spellplague. Wha?? The Spellplague has nothing to do with Dark Sun. (Or any setting other than Forgotten Realms for that matter.)
#21 awaken_D_M_golem Feb 07, 2011 17:13:29	What what ?! Wha?? The Spellplague has nothing to do with Dark Sun. (Or any setting other than Forgotten Realms for that matter.) Didn't the 4e PHB introduce the concept of the Spellplague? Perhaps yours is a different printing. Charm Monster is a spell in 1e , 2e and 3e. It lasts for 1/day per level (!!). www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmmonster.h... In 4e you don't have any Charms that last for up to 5 minutes. This same change in the D&D magic system occurs in: Core , FR (as you already noted) , Eberron ... AND ... Dark Sun. Do you have an alternative reason for the massive change in magic, one that even the gawds and the Sorc-Kings had forced upon them ??
#22 Agonar Feb 07, 2011 23:55:44	Flying craft? I only recall living airships, as well as boats and (sea-based) floating cities. If I recall correctly, there was also a craft that came from space that had three halflings from before the green age. Yeah.. one of the later modules went along the lines of the Original Halfling Nature/Life benders having left Athas, and went into a ship.. the Messenger, the comet that circles athas every so many years...  I never read through that adventure, so I don't the specifics.. I do know that a lot of people tended to ignore that little tidbit. Athas is a dying world though, the red sun indicating that its near the end of its life cycle and will eventually go super nova and thus destory Athas, though the planet would likely be dead from defiling even before that happens. Actually, from what I recall, the sun has seen practically no change since the last time the Dark Lense was used to tap into the sun's power..  each time the Sun shifted, from a sapphire sun during the Blue age to the Golden sun during the green age, it was done manually with the help of the lense and the Pristine Tower. Actually, I never had such feeling. Keep in mind, that it were Sorcerer-Kings that shut their crystal sphere and closed it from incursions, so it happened after Cleansing Wars and rebellion against Rajaat. I never found any evidence in old 2e materials that is the was SKs that closed the world.  The Grey, which is where the dead spirits of Athas go, always separated the Prime Material from the Astral plane, which made it impossible to form the link Gods needed to draw power from their worshippers, and thus provide spells.  Those threads/connections, instead, linked Athas to the Elemental Planes, because those pathways required a trup through the Etherial Plane, which was just fine.  So, Priests learned to tap into the Elemental Planes for their power, and thus you had water clerics, earth, fiew, etc. The funny part is.. that even in some of the old canon material, there are some people that did worship gods... so the idea of it wasn't completely unheard of, even if it didn't have the same ramifications in other D&D world/settings.  So either, the world developed a natural tendency to develop faith/religion, OR, wanderers from other planes arrived (which seems the most likely, considering - but I don't know if it is ever actually explained), and brought with them their beliefs in the Gods and such.
#23 burntcrispy Feb 08, 2011 0:27:30	Didn't the 4e PHB introduce the concept of the Spellplague? Perhaps yours is a different printing. I'm pretty sure the answer to that is 'No'. The Spellplague isn't in the core PHB. Charm Monster is a spell in 1e , 2e and 3e. It lasts for 1/day per level (!!). www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmmonster.h... In 4e you don't have any Charms that last for up to 5 minutes. This same change in the D&D magic system occurs in: Core , FR (as you already noted) , Eberron ... AND ... Dark Sun. Do you have an alternative reason for the massive change in magic, one that even the gawds and the Sorc-Kings had forced upon them ?? Because it's a game and not a continous narrative. The game rules changed, so now things work differently in the game, which is not a continious narrative. The setting for Eberron is completely unchanged for instance. There was no spell plauge or 'cosmic realignment'. I'ts just that the game rules are different now.
#24 RalofTyr Feb 14, 2011 20:27:21	If you all remember the Original D&D Box-set, the "Gods" seemed to have been players that have exceeded 36th-level and entered into Immortallity. Dark Sun has followed suit with the Dragon-Kings. Congratulations, Golem. You get today's Incoherence award. hmm ... you seem to be Not understanding something. What are you , not understanding? I have a feeling that guy's trolling to get a reaction out of you.
#25 awaken_D_M_golem Feb 22, 2011 17:35:03	No probs ... ever since I said: "the emperor has no clothes" about 4 years ago, I've had a small contingent of Pazuzu Cultists, who follow me around saying incoherence. I'm used to it. "He" might be one of those; "he" might not. I don't care.
#26 awaken_D_M_golem Feb 22, 2011 17:40:55	Didn't the 4e PHB introduce the concept of the Spellplague? Perhaps yours is a different printing. I'm pretty sure the answer to that is 'No'. The Spellplague isn't in the core PHB. Well ... the word "spellplague" is not in the PHB. I'll give you that. The concept spellplague is all throughout the game, including the PHB. PHB refers to the DMG DMG refers to both the FRCS and FRPG (hence spellplague). PHB rituals can uncover information about Spellplague. Deities are distant, is a concept in all of 4e. Why? Spellplague. In previous editions (ala the o.p.) , the default setting for D&D as a whole, is FR. This even if you are someplace else.
#27 Cyber-Dave Feb 24, 2011 0:57:27	Um, the spellplague refers to a magical apocalypse that happened in the Forgotten Realms setting when the goddess of magic was murdered, for good, via an elaborate plot involving Forgotten Realms deities. That concept is not to be found in any products except for the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. There is nothing in the PHB about a spellplague, in name or concept, in any shape or form. The rules of the game changing is not related to the concept of the spellplague. The concept of the spellplague is related to the change in the rules of the game, but the inverse statement, as I have stated, is not true. When it rains the deck is whet. Just because the deck is whet, however, that does not mean it has rained; perhaps someone has just washed the deck. In this case, someone has just 'washed the deck' of 4e, so to speak. The change in the way spells, such as charm monster, work has nothing to do with the spellplague. It has to do with the rules of the game changing. For 4e Forgotten Realms they chose to explain that change via a metagame narrative. For other settings they did not. Rather, they chose to introduce the change via an non continues narrative. In other words, in the 4e version of Eberron the spells have always worked the way they work in 4e, because 4e Eberron is not 3e Eberron. Likewise, in 4e Dark Sun the spells have always worked the way they work in 4e, because 4e Dark Sun is not 2e (or 3e) Dark Sun. 4e Forgotten Realms is designed to be a continues narrative with previous versions of the Forgotten Realms. Other 4e settings released to date have not been designed that way. So, comments about the "spellplague existing in all 4e products" are fairly incoherent...