What are the Primordials...I have most of the original Dark Sun stuff and I don't remember talk of Primordials. Can someone explain or point me to where in the original books it can be found?
The Primordials are a 4th ed concept that has merged into all settings involving WotC and 4th. They shouldn't have an influence on the actual game.
I picture Primordials as just being these vastly powerful beings that sit around 'cuz they don't really care. They made the world, they don't really care what the puny mortals do on it. Maybe they left to make other worlds or are hibernating or still resting from their vicious battle with the gods, etc. All the Gods are humanoid in nature (or at least tied to one of the races), whereas primordials just are. That's why I'd picture them as not being "the gods, but different".
Dark Sun has a history of these beings called spirits of the land, which match very closely low-powered primal spirits.
Though thinking about it, the primordials in standard D&D want to destroy the world....So the question is if the Gods were defeated, why didn't the Primordials blow up Athas as they wanted, unless the Primordials are also slightly altered for Athas, which works.
In the default Points of Light setting, the gods victory in the Dawn War was extremely pyrrhic. So much so that the primal spirits had the power to limit the influence of the gods in the world.
I imagine much the same thing happened on Athas, except swap out "gods" and swap in "primordials".
Though thinking about it, the primordials in standard D&D want to destroy the world....So the question is if the Gods were defeated, why didn't the Primordials blow up Athas as they wanted, unless the Primordials are also slightly altered for Athas, which works.
Athas is a dying world...
Hmm... I thought they were doing just that. Destroying a world and absorbing it back into the elemental chaos takes time, and there happens to be some sentient and powerful individuals interested in keeping it ticking as long as possible.
... but it's just a matter of time until everybody is dead, right?
They never were "the Gods." They didn't become "the Gods" after they swatted those damn kids out of existance.
Defiling could be a returning the world to the primordials (if we want just one simple reason why Athas is dying), or defiling could actually be putting a damper on returning the world to the primordials (if we want some irony). Since elemental priests are now primal, this would mean the primal spirits take the role of the elementals, and we could put the primordials in the role paraelementals used to fill ("Defiling? Never heard of it. Oh, you mean the thing cracking the world so we can get back into it? Cool! Wait, this place is a wreck! But at least it's ours.") Ah, we'll see.
It's possible the God vs. Primordials war is the cause of Athas' demise in 4e.
This is something I have been considering. Not sure how things will play out in the campaign guide, but I am thinking this:
- Primordials and Divine gods fight, but Divine gods lose.
- Races can still access the Primordials for power (Primal), but can no longer access Divine.
- Races turn more fully to accessing inner power (Psionic).
- Arcane power is also discovered, but in other worlds its corrupting influence was balanced with the use of Divine power, which is now gone.
- Arcane power unchecked leads to the destruction of the world with some gaining absolute power.
Just a few thoughts I have floating around.
It's possible the God vs. Primordials war is the cause of Athas' demise in 4e.
This is something I have been considering. Not sure how things will play out in the campaign guide, but I am thinking this:
- Primordials and Divine gods fight, but Divine gods lose.
- Races can still access the Primordials for power (Primal), but can no longer access Divine.
- Races turn more fully to accessing inner power (Psionic).
- Arcane power is also discovered, but in other worlds its corrupting influence was balanced with the use of Divine power, which is now gone.
- Arcane power unchecked leads to the destruction of the world with some gaining absolute power.
Just a few thoughts I have floating around.
Isn't the primal power more along the lines of the primal spirits, not the primordials? The primordials would be more like the unrevealed elemental power source, I'd think.
It's possible the God vs. Primordials war is the cause of Athas' demise in 4e.
This is something I have been considering. Not sure how things will play out in the campaign guide, but I am thinking this:
- Primordials and Divine gods fight, but Divine gods lose.
- Races can still access the Primordials for power (Primal), but can no longer access Divine.
- Races turn more fully to accessing inner power (Psionic).
- Arcane power is also discovered, but in other worlds its corrupting influence was balanced with the use of Divine power, which is now gone.
- Arcane power unchecked leads to the destruction of the world with some gaining absolute power.
Just a few thoughts I have floating around.
The Primal source comes from Primal Spirits; Pennarin has a rather accurate rundown on them and their relationship with the other "divine" beings a few posts above.
It's a fascinating interpretation, anyways.
It's possible that what happened was that Gods and Primordials waged war, and Gods lost, and were killed or banished; that made the Divine power source almost unaccessible, and thus rare to the point of being absent (DMs who allow Divine classes will easily find a fix here).
At this point, the Primordials would tear the planet apart, but the Primal Spirits appear, and kick their butts; maybe the Primordials unleash powerful elemental magic on the world to fight back and turn it into what Athas is today. Or maybe the Primal spirits do, making it an inhospitable place for unworthy mortal races who sided with the Primordials.
In any case, this scenario leads to an explanation with a lot of potential. Gods are gone, and this makes a lot of sense for DS; Primal Spirits take their role, in their own "silent" way, which once again fits the old lore perfectly; Primordials MAY be still around, banished or simply sleeping, after their fight with Primal Spirits, ready to provide content for epic level games. One could easily imagine a SK digging a little to deep in one of his mines, and the next thing you know is that you got a lizardman made of lava and tall as a mountain marching on Urik.
It's an approach I'm fairly thorn about; on one hand, looking at Nibenay it's clear that DS needs something more powerful than SKs to fuel epic level games. However, the idea of just putting in a lvl 30 elite Beholder who is far more powerful than Nibenay and assuming the world is full of similar challenge for epic level games sort of defeats the idea that SKs are the ultimate threat.
In short, I think it really helps the setting if the general idea is that the SKs are the top dogs in the world (or are perceived as such), and rather than saying "but there's a lich 5 levels higher than Kalak in those ruins", the setting came out with an explanation for what you could bring back from the past to unbalance the world and change that notion. In short, the SKs are the most powerful beings in the world until your game needs something even worse, and only when that happens we have plot hooks to introduce things in the world that overshadow the rulers of the city states, or even the Dragon himself.
Edit: trying to make myself more clear, the 3 MM are full of creatures more powerful than Nibenay. Dark Sun is supposed to be one of the deadliest worlds around, and thus the idea that we should scale down threats to match SKs because we're used to the notion that there's very few things more powerful than them is detrimental to the theme of the setting. So instead of being told "don't use this arm long list of monsters because they overshadow the iconic DS BBEGs", I hope we get plot hooks and explanations on how to integrate the notion that there's worse stuff than the SKs in the world without making them lose the spotlight.
Isn't the primal power more along the lines of the primal spirits, not the primordials? The primordials would be more like the unrevealed elemental power source, I'd think.
Yes, the primal power source covers all the "divine-but-not" classes of 2e Dark Sun.
Actually, strictly speaking, I believe it's already intended in PoL that the arcane power source draws heavily from the elemental chaos and the primordials.
In the context of Dark Sun, this concept fits nigh perfectly: the world is dying, killed by defiling, power granted to its killers by the primordials, who are keen on destroying the world, having ended the gods that defended it, but were subsequently locked out of the material by the primal spirits. (GO RUN ON!)
In fact, I'm a huuuuuuuge fan of how well the Dawn War fits into the cosmology of Athas.
EDIT:
It's an approach I'm fairly thorn about; on one hand, looking at Nibenay it's clear that DS needs something more powerful than SKs to fuel epic level games. However, the idea of just putting in a lvl 30 elite Beholder who is far more powerful than Nibenay and assuming the world is full of similar challenge for epic level games sort of defeats the idea that SKs are the ultimate threat.
In short, I think it really helps the setting if the general idea is that the SKs are the top dogs in the world (or are perceived as such), and rather than saying "but there's a lich 5 levels higher than Kalak in those ruins", the setting came out with an explanation for what you could bring back from the past to unbalance the world and change that notion. In short, the SKs are the most powerful beings in the world until your game needs something even worse, and only when that happens we have plot hooks to introduce things in the world that overshadow the rulers of the city states, or even the Dragon himself.
I get the impression that it is intended that there is a much larger band of power between the Sorcerer-Kings than in the old edition (that is to say, Nibenay might be 28 but Hamanu might be 33) and they'll be including the threats beyond them.
At epic, the player should be toppling the gods themselves in any other setting, so it's reasonable that they should be toppling the SKs (and/or becoming ones themselves, with the appropriate Epic Destiny) and taking on something worse.
In fact, I'm a huuuuuuuge fan of how well the Dawn War fits into the cosmology of Athas.
Indeed, it does. Athas is a chaotic, cruel, merciless world; it lacks the rationality and order most other worlds shaped by Gods have, and quite fits the idea of a place almost destroyed by Primordials and barely rescued by Primal Spirits who certainly do nothing to promote civilization.
Isn't the primal power more along the lines of the primal spirits, not the primordials? The primordials would be more like the unrevealed elemental power source, I'd think.
It's just some thoughts and subject to reinterpretation once the books actually come out. We'll not being seeing the elemental source for a while yet, so I am quite comfortable tying primal more to the elemental chaos and the primordials for now.
The Primal source comes from Primal Spirits; Pennarin has a rather accurate rundown on them and their relationship with the other "divine" beings a few posts above.
Wouldn't know. Can't read his stuff unless it is quoted. Nuff said.
It's a fascinating interpretation, anyways.
Thanks.
Personally, I think I will be bumping up the levels of the SKs. I want them to be the big baddies of my game.
I get the impression that it is intended that there is a much larger band of power between the Sorcerer-Kings than in the old edition (that is to say, Nibenay might be 28 but Hamanu might be 33) and they'll be including the threats beyond them.
I was under the impression Nibenay was the most "powerful" of the non-dragon SKs.
I was under the impression Nibenay was the most "powerful" of the non-dragon SKs.
Right, I wasn't making any supposition about his particular place in the level band, only that there was a band, as well as enemies beyond it (i.e. the Dragon, and the potential inclusion of Rajaat, et al).
I was under the impression Nibenay was the most "powerful" of the non-dragon SKs.
Right, I wasn't making any supposition about his particular place in the level band, only that there was a band, as well as enemies beyond it (i.e. the Dragon, and the potential inclusion of Rajaat, et al).
But Nibenay's relatively low "power level" (he's barely a mid-epic tier challenge, and there's plenty of nameless MM monsters more threatening than him) sort of hints at WotC either taking a 3rd edition route to the setting (having it focus on heroic and paragon mostly, as in 3rd ed epic was completely optional) and adding few vague hints about post lvl 20 gaming, or in case they decide to back up epic play IN the book, adding some post-SK content in the lore.
I get the impression that it is intended that there is a much larger band of power between the Sorcerer-Kings than in the old edition (that is to say, Nibenay might be 28 but Hamanu might be 33) and they'll be including the threats beyond them.
I was under the impression Nibenay was the most "powerful" of the non-dragon SKs.
Well, there is Dregoth, he's more powerful than Nibs is. And, he's not a full dragon either. Of course, all the SK's were treated as dragons, they just weren't completely transformed like Borys. The rest were classified as dragons all the same.
Nibenay, Hamanu and the Oba were all the same level (IIRC) in 2e. Dregoth and Borys were the top dogs of the champions. But we also have things like ancient drakes, nightmare beasts, elementals, guardian spirits (primal spirits) and unique mutations. That's all a very small sample of what's out there.
And if you want to include the Last Sea, there's the Mind Lords as well...
Nibenay, Hamanu and the Oba were all the same level (IIRC) in 2e. Dregoth and Borys were the top dogs of the champions. But we also have things like ancient drakes, nightmare beasts, elementals, guardian spirits (primal spirits) and unique mutations. That's all a very small sample of what's out there.
And if you want to include the Last Sea, there's the Mind Lords as well...
Yup. I left out the crimson Savannah, the last sea, the deadlands and the valley of dust and fire because chances are, plenty of new DS fans in 4e won't know what any of that is. Although, I'm sure us old school DS fanatics will go crazy with the left out content. I know I'm gonna go bonkers with the deadlands.
Yup. I left out the crimson Savannah, the last sea, the deadlands and the valley of dust and fire because chances are, plenty of new DS fans in 4e won't know what any of that is. Although, I'm sure us old school DS fanatics will go crazy with the left out content. I know I'm gonna go bonkers with the deadlands.
True enough. the Deadlands are fun, to be sure, but I've enjoyed running a campaign that ventured up to the forgotten North -- Kurn and Eldaarich. Unfortunately, most campaigns don't survive a visit to Eldaarich...
They didnt want to destroy the world (well some of them did) just undo what the gods did to their work and return it to what they made it.
Well, if "what they made it" is roughly the same as the Elemental Chaos, it's functionally the same.
Defiling could be a returning the world to the primordials (if we want just one simple reason why Athas is dying), or defiling could actually be putting a damper on returning the world to the primordials (if we want some irony). Since elemental priests are now primal, this would mean the primal spirits take the role of the elementals, and we could put the primordials in the role paraelementals used to fill ("Defiling? Never heard of it. Oh, you mean the thing cracking the world so we can get back into it? Cool! Wait, this place is a wreck! But at least it's ours.") Ah, we'll see.
Here some ideas:
- The Paraelementals vs Elemental Lords (see Fire, Earth, Water and Air) was wierd, and too Black and White. There are different flavours of Primordials, some of which share the Paraelemental of old's vision, some of which share the Elemental Lords of old vision. Note: Primordials are not necessarily on the same side as each other... (shocking but true)... just like the Gods wage war on each other. Some want to reduce the world to Ash, some to Water, some to Earth, some side with the Abyss, etc...
- Rajaat, as the first sorcerer, was mad.
- He is/turn into/was force to be/etc an agent of the Primordials.
- He worked against the Primordials.
- He killed all the Gods, or all the followers of the Gods.
- He is the result of the death of the Gods. etc...
- Arcane magic, without the Dieties, has now been Teinted with defiling magic?
I'm an old-school DS fan since the beginning; I was thrilled when Valley of Dust and Fire had an expanded map!!! I'm perfectly fine with them creating a new version of what's out there. Part of the thrill of Dark Sun is that there's always regions beyond Tyr. Also, the Tyr map is wrong; planetary models show that the Rain-shadow should be on the other side of the Ringing mountains where the Forest-Ridge is.
The SK knew of the Primordials and the former Gods as they have a God's power to grant spells to Templars.
I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. But new DS fans might consider your homebrewed ideas to be old canon. So you might want to add a [homebrewed] tag line when you "state" things as if they were facts. So there is no confusion for newer fans who know nothing about the setting.
Also, the sorcerer kings ability to grant elemental power to their templars has nothing to do with gods and everything to do with living conduits to the elemental planes.
The second edition Dark Sun campaign setting goes to great lengths to explain that their conduit to the elemental planes is the same as a gods' conduit to the world. The source is different, but the method is the same.
Where, specifically? Got a page number, because I'v been unable to find anything in the box set. The dragonkings discusses it on page 11, but never mentions anything about gods. I'v never even heard that the gods are connected by living vortices in 2e. AFAIK, that was unique for darksun.
Where, specifically? Got a page number, because I'v been unable to find anything in the box set. The dragonkings discusses it on page 11, but never mentions anything about gods. I'v never even heard that the gods are connected by living vortices in 2e. AFAIK, that was unique for darksun.
The Revised Core, pages 16 and 17 refers to the "spiritual conduits" necessary for divine magic (which do not exist on Athas), and then explains that the Sorcerer-Kings use "magical conduits" to bestow powers on their followers, but specifically clarifies that they are not, in fact, gods.
Yes, the language is non-specific, but the comparison is made, and clearly I'm not the only one who inferred the connection. I'm fairly confident I've seen this comparison made elsewhere too, but it's possible that I might simply be reading too much into this one snippet.
Where, specifically? Got a page number, because I'v been unable to find anything in the box set. The dragonkings discusses it on page 11, but never mentions anything about gods. I'v never even heard that the gods are connected by living vortices in 2e. AFAIK, that was unique for darksun.
The Revised Core, pages 16 and 17 refers to the "spiritual conduits" necessary for divine magic (which do not exist on Athas), and then explains that the Sorcerer-Kings use "magical conduits" to bestow powers on their followers, but specifically clarifies that they are not, in fact, gods.
Yes, the language is non-specific, but the comparison is made, and clearly I'm not the only one who inferred the connection. I'm fairly confident I've seen this comparison made elsewhere too, but it's possible that I might simply be reading too much into this one snippet.
It defines how the 2nd Ed. rules were constructed to allow for divine spellcasting Templars. In 4E, that isn't the case any more. It always was a hokey and hastily constructed concept (the elemental vortices -- there just happened to be enough just for all of the SK's, they are dead now, but exist inside the SK's and tap into the divine energy of the elemental planes, basically stealing the power that the elemental clerics were getting).
The Revised Core, pages 16 and 17 refers to the "spiritual conduits" necessary for divine magic (which do not exist on Athas), and then explains that the Sorcerer-Kings use "magical conduits" to bestow powers on their followers, but specifically clarifies that they are not, in fact, gods.
Yes, I thought it common knowledge that athas had no gods. Sorcerer kings, the dragon and Rajaat are godlike beings, but not true gods. I'v never said otherwise. As for divine magic, yes, it does exist on athas in 2e. Divine magic was directly tied to the elemental forces in darksun, which is why we had clerics, templars and druids capable of casting divine spells.
As for exactly how "gods" drew upon divine or elemental power in other settings is dependant upon that setting. Each has its own take on how it's handled. The explanation found in the revised box set is a quick and dirty explanation and not accurate with regards to other settings.
Yes, the language is non-specific, but the comparison is made, and clearly I'm not the only one who inferred the connection. I'm fairly confident I've seen this comparison made elsewhere too, but it's possible that I might simply be reading too much into this one snippet.
Gods do not draw upon energy the same way in every setting. So while you probably have seen the explanation elsewhere, it's not a universal fact. How gods draw magical power in forgotten realms has nothing to do with how gods draw power in dragonlance, for example.
Still, What Ral claims isn't true. The sorcerer kings wouldn't know about the dawn war simply by being able to grant templars power through their living conduits to the elemental planes. The SKs knowledge is limited to their power and while they may be able to look into the past and see events from before the blue age, I highly doubt they can see into the events of the astral sea or the dawn war. It's 100% speculation and there are no facts to back up anyones guess. It's completely homebrew.
Yes, I thought it common knowledge that athas had no gods. Sorcerer kings, the dragon and Rajaat are godlike beings, but not true gods. I'v never said otherwise. As for divine magic, yes, it does exist on athas in 2e. Divine magic was directly tied to the elemental forces in darksun, which is why we had clerics, templars and druids capable of casting divine spells.
It is common knowledge: I was summarizing the quote on the page in question, from the section on Priestly Magic. In fact, I'll continue the quote: "Divine power cannot be attained or sustained." Emphasis mine.
Any use of the term "divine" in Dark Sun materials is strictly a reference allowing you to continue using other 2nd edition material for your divine caster classes, or an in-setting reference to creature revered as a deity. A mechanic, nothing more.
Gods do not draw upon energy the same way in every setting. So while you probably have seen the explanation elsewhere, it's not a universal fact. How gods draw magical power in forgotten realms has nothing to do with how gods draw power in dragonlance, for example.
By "elsewhere" I meant very specifically "elsewhere in the official 2nd edition Dark Sun or Athas.org 3rd edition Dark Sun materials that I have recently read."
Still, What Ral claims isn't true. The sorcerer kings wouldn't know about the dawn war simply by being able to grant templars power through their living conduits to the elemental planes. The SKs knowledge is limited to their power and while they may be able to look into the past and see events from before the blue age, I highly doubt they can see into the events of the astral sea or the dawn war. It's 100% speculation and there are no facts to back up anyones guess. It's completely homebrew.
Ah yes. Well if your primary complaint was that the SKs don't know about the Dawn War then I'm cool with that. I didn't think what the SKs did or did not know was really pertinent to the discussion, which is naturally why I didn't address it.
Thanks, sounds like a solid explanation on how Athas became a godless place.
Athas is buffered from the other planes by 'the grey' which makes contact to dieties in other planes and arcane magic extremely difficult.
Athas is buffered from the other planes by 'the grey' which makes contact to dieties in other planes and arcane magic extremely difficult.
According to DS2 (Revised Campaign Setting boxed set, and supplements supporting it, like Preservers & Defilers).
Old 2e and 3e standards no longer apply to 4e Dark Sun unless you want them to; official material now will only deal with 4e's new way of doing things, not with assumptions based on an older edition of the game, the old setting, and the old D&D cosmology.