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| #1redkingJan 12, 2009 0:31:29 | Are Psionic Enchantments really Epic Spells, or something all together different entirely? In 3E, any epic spell caster can cast a spell, so long as they meet the requirements. In 2E Dark Sun, psionic enchantments were a mechanic by which advanced beings could cast spells of greater power than that available to regular characters. Athas.org has handled this by taking the approach that psionic enchantments are not really spells but a handful of special abilities (which, if I recall correctly, are similar to those of the Archmage PrC). How should psionic enchantments be handled in 3E? Your thoughts first, gentlemen, then I will offer mine (a good idea would probably make me jettison my idea, though). |
| #2terminus_vortexaJan 12, 2009 2:52:10 | i use them as epic spells with additional psionic mitigating factors. I think this best expresses the original concept of psionic enchantments being a spell where the mind is'tuned' by psionics to control the incredible releases of magical energy involved. Reducing the DC seems like 'tuning up' the process to me. |
| #3phaaf_glienJan 12, 2009 6:17:18 | Ah, a difficult question and issue redking. One that needs solving I think. Vortexa probably has something there, I would think. To me, following the flavor and precedents in rules and products would be wise. Vortexa, to my knowledge, makes considerable efforts to do so. Good luck redking. |
| #4terminus_vortexaJan 12, 2009 11:10:08 | Here's the long 2e explanation, which is surprisingly easy to apply to 3.0(there is no 3.5 version) epic spellcasting mechanics. From Dragon Kings, p. 8 Psionic Enchantment 'Beyond the horizons of routine magic are whole seas of power that cannot be tapped naturally. The unaided mind, regardless of intelligence, cannot comprehend, let alone command, such tremendous energy. But psionics can “tune” the mind for greater mastery of magic. The combination produces the most powerful magic available in a DARK SUN campaign. Psionic enchantment is magic, not psionics. As stated in the Complete Psionics Handbook, “Magic is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize natural forces that infuse the game world and surround the characters. . . . Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being .” Psionics and magic are separate forces. In psionic enchantment, psionics is a means toward an end, a catalyst in the magical process. Wizard spells beyond 9th level and priest spells beyond 7th level are too difficult for the unaided mind to comprehend. Only through psionic disciplines can the mind handle this magic. In game terms, psionic enchantments are new spells for the highest-level wizard and priest characters who are also psionicists. For wizards, psionic enchantments are 10th-level spells. For priests, psionic enchantments are 8th-, 9h-, and 10-level. These spells become available based on the character’s level , given on spell progression tables later in this volume. There is no separate science or discipline for use of psionic enchantments. A spellcaster who reaches 20th level as a psionicist is always ready to negotiate psionic enchantments. The enchantments are spells of great scope, at times dwarfing the effects of those normally available to wizards and priests. Whereas existing spells focus on the individual and immediate surroundings, psionic enchantments can affect entire cities or armies or alter the face of Athas itself.' The direct translation of this concept into 3.5 mechanics is simple. Once you are capable of casting both epic spells and reach 20th manifester level(no requirement for manifestations of a certain level. Manifester level only is the denominating factor. This is more true to the letter of the original, and allows for Psychic Warrior/spellcaster multiclass users of Psionic Enchantments), you are able to negotiate a Psionic Enchantment. Using a Psionic Enchantment means this - you may apply Psionic mitigating factors to the Epic Spell you are developing. They stack with any Arcane or Divine mitigating factors and DC penalties that are otherwise included. This mechanic is simple, and captures both the letter and spirit of the original. It allows for spells comparable in effect to those described in Dragon Kings. If one takes proper advantage of it when developing Metamorphosis spells, it makes the task much more manageable, and opens up avenues for accomplishing the metamorphosis without needing to gather as much material resources and absorb as much life force. If one is lenient in their interpretation of the original material, one could allow for psionics users to contribute PP as a mitigating factor. Or,further,allow for the use of PP stored in objects as a mitigating factor. The latter would help one accomplish the metamorphosis with less resources, as ever day in preparation, one could potentially store a LOT of excess, unused PP. These factors would be especially agreeable to an aspiring Avangion, as secrecy for them is vital, and the resources must be gathered in secret. I use these rules, and have a story arc upcoming wherein an Elan named Silijic escapes from a slave caravan, and wanders out into the desert to live and develop in seclusion, and plot his revenge. He stumbles across the ruins of the destroyed and ruined ancient city of Kish. A long dead Champion/Dragon/SK named Sargon had made his home there, until he infuriated the Dragon by using the slaves allocated for the levy from his city to power the 28th stage of his metamorphosis. He had accomplished this in utter secrecy, without any of the telltale economic signs of research and construction. Borys arrived for the levy, and Sargon instead attempted to present him with an indestructible tablet detailing the process of Dragon metamorphosis using only a fraction of the usual resources, due to an increased use of Psionics in the process. Sargon wanted to raise all of the SKs to full Dragon status, and proceed to conquer the lands beyond the Known World(the lands included in any printed material), and maintaining the Prison of Rajaat with so many full Dragons and his newer psionic-intensive psionic Enchantments, the need for the levy would be eliminated. The tablelands would slowly come back to life, if the biggest defilers defiled less often. The Dragon was not inclined to let anyone else match his power, and he did not want the sorceror kings to be free from his levy or his rule. The Dragon cared not for the world beyond the Jagged Cliffs or the Sea of Silt. Here, in the Tablelands, he was the mightiest of all, and the scarred state of the land reminded everyone there of his power and rage, every single day. Who knew what lived in the rest of the world, unscarred by his rage? Perhaps entities mightier than himself, who would come and take his lands and nations and slaves and power from him. The Dragon would not lose his lofty place, where he commanded all life and death. He wanted the levy to be needed, so he could hoard slaves and peasants and nations and kings as his personal trophies of his war against Rajaat. Sargon's blueprints for an easier, more rapid transformation would take everything from him. So he took the tablet, and discarded it in a deep cave in the desert, so far down that nobody would ever find it, because they wouldn't be able to drag enough supplies and water for the spiraling, miles deep cave he dug to contain it. The air down there was so poor in oxygen, no creature that drew breath could survive. Borys waited until Sargon began the metamorphosis to 9th stage dragon,(or so Borys thought) and slew him and his entire city. Sargon, however, was not becoming a higher level Dragon, he was becoming something entirely different. With the help of his Templars, and every Psionicist or Wizard in his city, Sargon had been in the throes of a transformation from 8th stage Dragon to 10th stage Avangion,and Borys had just killed a mighty chance for the restoration of the known world. However, when Sargon realized none of the other SKs had ever recieved his gift of knowledge, he secretly sent a copy of his research, and personal journals on ecology and the impact of defiling and genocide, to his only true friend among the Champions, Keltis, who would one day become Oronis of Kurn. When Silijic destroyed the slave caravan, he manifested the Elan's innate power to sustain themselves on 1 PP a day(repletion), with no need for water or nourishment. He entered the nearest cave he could find, and just kept exploring deeper and deeper. He was a strong defiler, and was moderately strong in the Way. Something deep in the cave was emanating dark power and knowledge, and he wanted it. How fortunate that he had been caught by slavers in his wasteland encampment, after depleting his PP and daily spells in research. The slavers didn't suspect his nature, and treated him like any other prisoner. Escape had been easy. He simply killed them all with minor manifestations. Then he had seen the cave, and wandered in. Absently, he psionically rent a chunk of obsidian from the cave wall, and began to psionically mold it into a sphere. One never knew when they would need some extra PP, and obsidian made for easy storage if crafted properly. And the cave was absolutely encrusted with it, the further down he went. He would only guess later that the deep, smooth obsidian lining was the result of Borys the Dragon pumping everything he had into the psionics driving him deeper into the earth, turning the rock to magma, which cooled to obsidian. Borys didn't remain long enough for the tunnel to cool, and had no idea that he had just inadvertantly created a perfect conduit for the storage of Psionic energy, which Silijic would name 'The Dragon's Coil'. One thousand years later, Silijic burst forth from the earth with all the force of a volcanic eruption.he had found the Coil, and the treasure in its deepest reaches. He used the Way to decipher the instructions for Dragon metamorphosis, and used the Coil to store the psionic energy required. With no other tasks before him, and only 1 pp daily required to sustain him, Silijic amassed a battery of Psionic power capable of fueling his transformation. Midway through his stages of metamorphosis, he discovered the second use of the Dragon's Coil - it let him absorb life force for dragon magic from any source up to a mile away, and two miles vertically. Silijic was careful not to draw too much at once, lest he be discovered. His secrecy paid off, and even as Dregoth was defeated and Tectuktitlay's Living Vortex was set free by those who defeated him, Silijic drew strong and deep from the lifeforce of everything within his reach, for the final stage of his transformation. The Living Vortex took notice, and attached itself to him. Silijic burst forth from the earth in triumphant fury, ready to rain terror on any slaver he came across before he left to kill the Sorceror Kings,to consolidate his base of power. Then he would leave to conquer the unknown lands described and guessed at in Sargon's journal. |
| #5redkingJan 12, 2009 15:57:35 | Here's the long 2e explanation, which is surprisingly easy to apply to 3.0(there is no 3.5 version) epic spellcasting mechanics. Good one! I have just stolen one of your ideas! Psionic enchantment as a mitigating factor in epic spells, using some PPs in the epic spells. Furthermore, making the ability to use psionic enchantment a requirement for using the athas.org epic spell metamorphosis seed. Your idea also closes the loophole in dragon kings about why a high level character can cast the 1st stage defiler metamorphosis, but not the other psionic enchantments. The solution is yours - any suitable character can cast an epic spell, but to cast an epic spell as a psionic enchantment, they must meet the requirements. Great idea, however, there is still a need to differentiate the dragon kings and other advanced being to regular users of psionic enchantment. I propose that they get an additional, extremely powerful benefit that would make them all the more determined to complete their metamorphosis. It gives an excellent reason for a character that already can use psionic enchantment to deepen their understanding of it by becoming advanced beings (the DM could rule that only an advanced being is biologically capable of using these more advanced psionic enchantment powers). The way I think it should be handled is an XP discount on spells, psionic powers, and item creation . An advanced being get very broad benefits. Advanced being psionic enchantment The advanced being gain deep knowledge of psionic enchantments, beyond that can be even imagined by mortal beings. The advanced being can use psionic enchantment to augment his normal spell spell casting, psionic powers, or item creation. The amount of discount depends on the stage of metamorphosis. However, the spells for the metamorphosis itself are exempt from the XP discount. Stage 1 The advanced being gets up to a 20% discount on XP for the use of spells, psionic powers, and item creation (meaning that the advanced being need only pay 80% of the given XP cost). To use this ability for spells and item creation, the advanced being must use 1 pp per 5% of XP discount they mean to use at the time of spell casting or item creation. If the XP cost comes from manifesting a psionic power, the advanced being uses it's magic to augment the psionic power instead. It must sacrifice 1 spell level per 5% of XP discount to be gained. Spell levels lost can be prepared normally later. Stage 2 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 25% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 75% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 3 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 30% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 70% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 4 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 35% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 60% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 5 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 40% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 60% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 6 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 45% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 55% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 7 The advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment grows, giving it a 50% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 50% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 8 At this late stage in the metamorphosis, the advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment suddenly ramps up dramatically, giving it a 60% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 40% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 9 At this late stage in the metamorphosis, the advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment suddenly ramps up dramatically, giving it a 70% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 30% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. Stage 10 At this late stage in the metamorphosis, the advanced beings knowledge of psionic enchantment suddenly ramps up dramatically, giving it a 80% XP discount (meaning the advanced being need only pay 20% of XP costs). The advanced being must still use 1 pp per 5% for spells or item creation, or 1 spell level per 5% for psionic power manifestation. END Obviously what I have written here are advanced beings that are less cautious in using the more powerful spells than are regular spell casters and manifesters. At the lower levels, the benefit is good, but still slight. At the highest levels, advanced beings would be throwing around XP consuming spells and psionic powers like there is no tomorrow. Obviously there are limits, and having to use some pp and spell levels restricts what they can do in a single encounter. But it turns up their powers in a big way, and to me, gives a hint, about why advanced beings are so determined to complete their metamorphosis. |
| #6KynesisJan 13, 2009 1:17:10 | While ever bigger, flashier, more powerful spells are attractive, my interpretation of 'psionic enchantment' was more about the mechanics of spell casting. I believe its a natural progression to see spells and their requirements increase past 9th level, but their practicality (especially with regard to impact on a campaign and game world) decreases drastically. From a casters point of view... there are many cases where multiple lower level spells are more effective than one maximum level spell, though they've all got their place. My vision of the rules seems to be forever different from the many great authors. Back in 2e I arranged psionic enchantment as a system that used a PSP cost as a material component for a separate class of spells that only Advanced Beings could cast - which is the case with psionic enchantments anyway, but in my humble opinion more clearly and fully embraces the base concept. It also allowed spells of all levels to be psionic enchantments. I also tinkered with a concept of mitigating defiling damage but gave up as the entire basis of 'drawing energy for defiling' wasn't solid enough (has never been terribly workable). Not surprisingly I later tested out ideas to take advantage of kits as I'd decided that while it was cool to restrict psionic enchantments to advanced beings, it effectively meant that a concept that I'm still extremely fond of was only seen in the hands of NPC's and then only once in a blue moon, generally for the sole purpose of ensuring the casting was stopped anyway. The theory as basically stated by Dragon Kings (as quoted) being that psionics in this case are effectively serving the same purpose as other material components; a bigger and more significant component but a component nonetheless. I see psionic enchantments as too good to side-line (.. and I might be slightly biased after making them a pet project) and while Defilers and Preservers with its variety of alternate energy sources was fascinating (if a little disappointing in areas) it seemed at least to support my direction. I fully supported (with slight house-rules alterations) the use of Ghuul Lords (Al'Quadim setting, Sha'ir's handbook) as the primary (only) casters of a peoples living in the obsidian plains. I even allowed the other casters of the Sha'irs handbook for a while but they really didn't quite fit, neither were the game mechanics of them terribly solid, fun to experiment with though. I imagine the authors may've considered a path similar to mine and dismissed it. DarkSun pushes pretty much every boundary as it is & already supports a series of sub-set rules and classes - extending the magic system to support a third.. fourth ... leg (for want of a better term) arcane, divine, psionic, psionic enchantment would've likely been pushing for too much to develop and support... or maybe they just didn't think it was a good idea. In answer to the question, in my interpretation psionic enchantments are not epic spells (though as with all supernatural powers, they have the potential to be as they escalate through 9th level). They are a special class of magic though, being more powerful than a regular spell of the same level while often including a feature of a psionic power in the spell, so borderline epic from a certain point of view - definitely not something you want many characters or NPC's running around with. The other ideas here are interesting, but I'm extremely cautious about allowing a 'core' game mechanic to mitigate other game mechanic's (balancing) consequences. |