Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 elpeeslay Apr 24, 2011 5:58:55	I recently picked up the Dark Sun books and plan on starting a DS campaign soon. Not having a lot of knowledge about the DS setting I found the books extremely helpful except for one area, the racial descriptions. I really felt like the campaign setting guide should have given descriptions of all of the 4e player races or clearly outlined which ones should not be allowed. Does anyone have any suggestions on how the other races are imagined in the DS setting or what races to allow or not allow players to use?
#2 mgbeach Apr 24, 2011 6:37:28	Goliath (Half-Giant) Mul Human Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling Those are the basics, and the ones that I'm pretty sure got a writeup in the Campaign Guide.  There was tremendously better fluff in the original Dark Sun boxed set if you can find it. Things like a dwarf's focus, for example, are great: Dwarves are short but extremely powerful. Athasian dwarves average 4' 2" to 5 feet in height and tend to have a very large muscle mass-a full grown dwarf weighs in the neighborhood of 200 pounds.  Lives of hard work in the hot sun leave them with a rich tan and rugged, calloused hands and feet. Dwarves can live up to 250 years. A dwarf's chief love is toil. A dwarf is never happier than when there is a cause to work or fight for, something he can approach with stoic singlemindedness for weeks, months, years, or even decades at a time. Once a dwarf's mind is committed to a certain task, he'll only set it aside after a great deal of grumbling and coercion. The fulfillment he achieves upon completion of a lengthy, difficult task is what he strives for. The task to which a dwarf is presently committed   is referred to as his focus. A dwarf's focus must be a feat requiring at least one week to complete. Shorter term goals cannot be considered a focus. While performing tasks that are directly related to his focus, a dwarf receives a +1 bonus to all his saving throws and a +2 bonus to all his proficiency rolls (or +10 to any percentile roll). Actually, a dwarf's commitment to his focus is based in his physiology-those who complete their lives before they complete their foci live out their afterlives as banshees in the wastes, haunting their unfinished works! By nature, dwarves are nonmagical and never use magical spells, just as described in the Player's Handbook.  This restriction does not apply to cleric or templar spells. An Athasian dwarf takes notice of other beings based upon his focus. If the other being is also actively committed to the dwarf's focus, the dwarf will consider him a sensible and dependable companion.  If, however, the other being is vehemently opposed to the dwarf's focus, the two will be irrevocably at odds until one or the other is dead. There is very little room for compromise in the mind of a dwarf. That's such a cool idea, I was sad to see it not embraced in the new version. So, I put it into my campaign That's really the beauty of the game, after all... making the worlds you want to make and telling the stories you want to tell. The beauty of Dark Sun and the world of Athas, though, is that really anything can exist. The mutagenic properties of the desert (especially certain areas, like near the Pristine Tower) allow for any manner of intelligent creature stumbling in from the wastes.  And, no one is too surprised to see anything walking around...now, they might try to kill it right off, but they won't be too surprised Tieflings are mentioned in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide, but it's a pretty weak writeup. Here's the origin of the species, so to speak, that I came up with for my campaign: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... And there was a recent discussion on Shardminds here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#3 Bera Apr 24, 2011 14:14:14	I second that list. In the 90s Dark son, the most common race is human. Dwarves, half-elves, and half-giants (goliath) are generally tolerated in cities. Mul are common as slaves. Elves are itinerant scum tolerated out of necessity. Anything else sticks out. A lot. Not that it isn't seen per se, but thri-kreen or dray (dragonborn) are noticeable. That said, if you're new to Dark Sun, no need to stick with the old cannon at all. And I'm all for PCs being the exceptions, rather than the rules.
#4 claytoniantomb Apr 24, 2011 17:24:10	In the original DS art by Brom, there were all kinds of crazy races depicted. I say any PC race is up for grabs, but you will have to justify living constructs and recast some of the extinct races (something you don't even have to be concerned about if you don't have knowledge of out of date 2e materials) as mutants.
#5 khorne37 Apr 25, 2011 12:07:00	Take out Orcs, Pixies, Most Fey folk and gnomes. You should be good the exotic races have more of a place in the setting.
#6 mgbeach Apr 25, 2011 12:12:33	The thing that I like is that even though there were these genocides, that doesn't preclude some isolated settlement that has remained hidden since the Cleansing Wars.  Maybe they've gone feral, and mutations are rampant from inbreeding or having fled to areas near the Pristine Tower to get away from people..  I actually watched Judge Dredd the other day and when the mutants came on I thought of Dark Sun first off.
#7 siromega Apr 25, 2011 12:55:35	Nearly all of the PHB and Sourcebook races can be refluffed for DS, but I think at some point it's just borderline silly. Yes, the Drow could have been a settlement of elves that spent way too much time in the Under-Tyr or the The Gray (Shadar-Kai actually aren't that hard to fit in, although planar travel is hard in Athas). Shardminds/Warforged could be Tectucticklay's golems, Vryloka could be Thraxes (same for Vamp class), half-orcs could be half-tareks, etc. But the thing is that the DSCS is actually fairly clear on some races that aren't allowed, I'm trying to recall but it mentions them fairly early on: Anything Aquatic (bye bye Bullywugs...) Drow Orc/Bugbear/Goblin Duergar Mind Flayers and Beholders and their ilk 90% of Fey Folk Other things are reflavored, Half-Giants, Dray, Beast Giants (Minotaurs), Psionic Humans (Kalasthar), the Half-Elementals (Genasi). I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cacti Wilden FTW.
#8 blaqueup Apr 25, 2011 13:09:09	The only races said to outright not be there are orcs, goblinoids, kobolds, deva, and gnomes.  Really any of the rest can be refluffed and reskinned for Athas, though.  And even then, as noted, some things actually can substittue pretty nicely.  Kobolds can be reskinned as Silt Runners pretty easily and I kind of wonder if goblins make good Tari substitutes, but I need to find out more on those. And stuff.
#9 mgbeach Apr 25, 2011 13:27:43	But if you think it's cool to have a tribe of orcs that's survived somehow, been thrown across the planes, or whatever... it's your game; have fun!  I defer to the books for issues of game mechanics, but for game flavor they are a jumping-off point.  I'd argue that the information in books like "there are no goblins on Athas" serves the most useful purpose if you throw a goblin or two in there eventually since the characters and players KNOW there aren't any.  Well, they thought they knew...
#10 siromega Apr 25, 2011 14:30:06	Then you take away some of the specialness of Athas (I would like to point out racial genocide is one of those things that can only be special in Athas). You can easily reskinn goblins and gnomes to be Halflings who spent a little too much time under the crimson sun. Plus you can usually add a few of the powers from the Creature themes from the DSCC without too much trouble. You could even have a one-shot about a Town like Altaruk panicking about 'Goblin' attacks even though Goblins haven't existed for centuries (or longer, I forget), but it really was just Sunwarped Halflings! Refluff some standard goblins from the MM (or Monster Vault if you want them to not be as sucky, if their even in there), and you'll even have the players who know their MM's front to back a little surprised by the Big Reveal. Just sayin'
#11 mgbeach Apr 25, 2011 15:03:56	The genocide is all well and good to highlight how terrible the SK's are. But at the end of the day, tareks are orcs. Silt runners are kobolds. Ya know? I don't think the lack of those few races is what makes Athas special.
#12 siromega Apr 25, 2011 17:25:21	On the contrair, I think it is. I think it's the alien nature of the world of Athas and the myraid of new things that make it special. Fluff is a big part of what makes DS stand out from FR and Eberron. I love the desert, I love the dark-red sky, I love silt bridges, I love when cloud-rays fly! I love our sand world, and all it's desert towns! Boom-de-yada! Damn it, now I'm gonna start trying to do the whole song...
#13 mgbeach Apr 25, 2011 21:08:37	On the contrair, I think it is. I think it's the alien nature of the world of Athas and the myraid of new things that make it special. Fluff is a big part of what makes DS stand out from FR and Eberron. I love the desert, I love the dark-red sky, I love silt bridges, I love when cloud-rays fly! I love our sand world, and all it's desert towns! Boom-de-yada! Damn it, now I'm gonna start trying to do the whole song... In your verse there you didn't mention any of the races I agree completely that the alien nature and new ideas make Athas the best setting out there. I was just saying that I don't think throwing an orc or two that survived the cleansing wars in the mix destroys the whole feel.
#14 siromega Apr 25, 2011 22:14:58	I actually went on to add a few more lines, but I thought that would be spam to post the whole thing . But yes, I see your point, I concede lmao
#15 kylarus Apr 25, 2011 23:39:46	The genocide is all well and good to highlight how terrible the SK's are. But at the end of the day, tareks are orcs. Silt runners are kobolds. Ya know? I don't think the lack of those few races is what makes Athas special. Part of keeping that special "genocide" flavor and still having your setting version of kobolds and orcs is that refluffing. If tareks are to orcs what DS halflings are to FR or Eberron halflings, suddenly the tareks are a lot more harsh, if that were possible. Play up that kobolds and orcs weren't hard enough to survive and that the things that are taking their place have earned their place in the Athasian food chain.
#16 windlane Apr 26, 2011 3:31:55	What I find funny about this discussion is that the first published Dark Sun material for 4th edition, the Encounters adventure Fury of the Wastewalker, has goblins. So I'm not so sure WotC agrees that removing all those classic races was the best idea. The goblins were a much different feel in that adventure. They're described as just being a tribe out foraging in a nomadic way in the wilderness and is one of the few (I think there's only two) encounters in the full adventure that can be role played past without a fight. (As written that is) Really, you should do whatever makes you happy and keeps your group interested. For some it's going to be all about holding firm to that original fluff invented in AD&D 2nd edition and the novels - and why not? It's awesome stuff. For others it's going to be more about taking cues from the fluff provided and adapting to what you want - and why not? You know your group better than WotC does. If you're having fun, you did it right.
#17 khorne37 Apr 26, 2011 12:10:02	That was actually an editorial mix up they took goblins are were suppose to rename them but it didn't happen. But you could also say when your party defeats them "With the last goblin in existance killed by your hand..."
#18 Warrant Apr 26, 2011 23:48:10	I love the original 2e fluff about genocidal wars prosecuted by psionic/wizard warlords who  defiled the very planet. I really would love to see fiction fleshed out about the individual histories of the sorcerer kings and their wars. I mean wiping out the goblins/ogres/trolls etc was such an epic undertaking..it's just really cool stuff. Made me fall in love with Dark Sun.
#19 Alphastream Apr 28, 2011 18:53:17	This topic has come up before. As always, it is your game and you can do what you wish. The question is always what you gain and lose if you change the underpinnings of the setting.
#20 majesticmoose Apr 30, 2011 19:39:50	I'm also going to shamelessly plug this blog post of mine, where I give some alternate flavor for Wilden in Dark Sun. I'm currently Working on adapting some of the more chalanging races to Dark Sun in more interesting ways.  Hopefully i succeed.
#21 Kurmudgeon May 15, 2011 3:02:52	Since starting my DS campaign I've expanded the character race options after reading some of the older 2e material. I haven't allowed the excluded races back in, but have allowed them to be used as "templates" for 2e races that didn't make into 4e, or for races from the creature catalog. Basically they've been reskinned to fit into DS and renamed. so far we have Johzal - Gnome, with fleetrunner boots added to give them a greater run speed as this race is known for their ability to run away, ability to blend in, and love of magic. Also added reptile keyword. Tarek - Use Revenant as base and choose 1/2 orc as living race. With a few minor name changes, the abilities match up nicely with the Tareks in the creature catalog. Of course you have to disallow most, if not all, of the revenant feats, remove necrotic damage, and undead keyword. Nikaal - Thinking of using Wilden (or maybe Hobgoblin) as the base, then adding Corellian's Boon of Arcane Might (level 3) to get Acid Orb (sorcerer At-Will) as an encounter power, but cutting range back to 10.  These guys are humanoid reptiles that can spit acid. Silt Runners - Kobolds with extra speed.
#22 Nightshade May 17, 2011 11:27:05	If Orcs have been wiped out, do half-orcs still exist?  I want to play a half-orc ranger wielding a spiked chain (and use the chain, symbol of my oppression, to destroy my former masters).  But I'd rather play some other idea entirely if I can't be a half-orc.  In eberron half races breed true and exist on their own as a race.  Does this happen in Dark Sun?
#23 mach4 May 17, 2011 13:41:54	If Orcs have been wiped out, do half-orcs still exist?  I want to play a half-orc ranger wielding a spiked chain (and use the chain, symbol of my oppression, to destroy my former masters).  But I'd rather play some other idea entirely if I can't be a half-orc.  In eberron half races breed true and exist on their own as a race.  Does this happen in Dark Sun? Officially, there are no half-orcs. From a biological perspective, there is no reason why they would not breed true over time. From a logical perspective, any Champion worth it's salt would not let even bastard offspring of their chosen race to survive. From a gaming-psych perspective, you can just as easily rename the race as something Athasian and play the same general mentaltiy (half-Tarek since many view the Tarek as the Athasian analog to orcs albeit of a highly shamanistic variety). It's highly unlikely that a half-bred species would still refer to itself or its people as half anything after a few hundred generations and would simply refer to itself as distinct species with some degree of cultural changes and possible genetic drifts towards one parentage with more dominant genetic traits. My personal opinion would be to switch the race with something Athasian and maintain the concept but that would be for your DM to decide.
#24 Kurmudgeon May 17, 2011 14:25:54	Nightshade. I would talk to your DM and pitch the idea of being a Tarek, which is pretty much just a re-skinned orc or 1/2 orc. A number of them were enslaved in the arena of Tyr when the slaves were freed. BTW the chain idea is pretty cool.