How do you see Rajaat? An ugly pyreen, or a new race freak?
rajaat=pyreen was a retcon by 2nd box. it seems quite clear, as Rajaat being a pyreen is mentioned nowhere before 2nd box material was introduced.
although not straight up said, it seems much more likely that Rajaat was a human based freak. this is the implication throughout the PP.
i should note however that, to my knowledge, nowhere in the PP, despite a fairly thorough scan, does Denning explicitly say Rajaat is human. I would venture to say that this was probably fairly deliberate on Denning's part. The concept that Rajaat had a human "heart" though seems most appropriate.
The reason for this is because Denning had a moral-of-the-story thing going on. If we accept the pyreen theory, we instead see the Cleansing Wars and the Fate of Athas as the fall of an angelic power (a pyreen), with which we as readers cannot easily identify. It strikes much closer to home to see Rajaat as how he was meant to be seen, as human based, with a human heart, whose follies brought about untold evil and the near destruction of a world. This means much more to us if Rajaat is human, or as a "freak", with a human heart. If he is some special, blessed being, like a pyreen, we lose the sense of personal involvement... some angelic race is responsible for the ruining of the world and the death of billions, and it is not a human fault... we share less of a greater sense of moral culpability or empathy with what Rajaat did. It was rather Satan's fault, some angel's, and we do not see the possibility of such evil lying in our own hearts, which I think was Denning's intent, if subtle.
That's some of my thoughts on the matter.
Yes, it's sort of fun with Rajaat being a pyreen. It surely explains his powers a little more easily, as well as his age, but these items could be chalked up to other things, such as a damned kick-ass wild talent roll and his own researches and adventures. Slavicsek, like with so much of what he did, just wildly took up pyreen as something cool, and something that understandably felt good to him, and not Denning. Denning could have easily inserted the pyreen factor into the PP, but he did not. That is totally 2nd box.
As a note, i think we should have more discussions on the nature of Rajaat's powers, and so forth. He is INCREDIBLY powerful. The sun changes color when is freed, for crying out loud. I'd be curious to see how people explain such awesome powers.
great thread.
in other fiction, when men take over the works of their predecessors, we often only respect them if they do their best to stay close to the original conception. we can see this in the sons of both Tolkien and Frank Herbert. The fans of those series would have rebelled if the sons had taken the settings they inherited on wildly different tangents and interpretations, remaking them into their own image of how the books should have been. even if Slavicsek was trying to correct Denning's mistakes, or makes things more logical, he did a poor job of it. if Tolkien or Herbert jr. had altered some of the fundamentals of their fathers' works, the fans would have rebelled/deserted, even if the new books were considered "canon" just because they were published. The fans would have just ignored the new books, and rightly so. Copyright does not equal cool.
Don't get me wrong. I like a whole lot of what Slavicsek did. I loved the new monsters in the Terrors Beyond Tyr supplement. I'm glad he at least tried to make psionics a little cooler with his new rules, even though they were not playtested at all... He just bent the game in his own direction, and the players should not have to be strongarmed into accepting his interpretations.
as to rajaat, gamewise it is almost easier to rate him as a pyreen, or of pyreen origins. it's also a little more acceptable to me than other things Slavicsek came up with. rajaat's race i have wrestled with, and continue to do so. but in the end, i think redking is right... denning conceived of rajaat with a "human" heart.
please respond kamelion. i am curious to see your arguments. i do not have the appropriate novels with me to back up my arguments, but i addressed this in other threads you can find via google.
in fact, i'll just punch it up for you:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=8849197
hopefully that works.
consider the arguments.
do you have anything besides 2nd box drivel to back your assertions up kamelion? it was bill slavicsek's fancy to make rajaat a pyreen. i do not prefer a setting i enjoy to be hijacked by one man's fancies, as was definitely the case when slavicsek took the helm on DS.
in other fiction, when men take over the works of their predecessors, we often only respect them if they do their best to stay close to the original conception. we can see this in the sons of both Tolkien and Frank Herbert. The fans of those series would have rebelled if the sons had taken the settings they inherited on wildly different tangents and interpretations, remaking them into their own image of how the books should have been. even if Slavicsek was trying to correct Denning's mistakes, or makes things more logical, he did a poor job of it. if Tolkien or Herbert jr. had altered some of the fundamentals of their fathers' works, the fans would have rebelled/deserted, even if the new books were considered "canon" just because they were published. The fans would have just ignored the new books, and rightly so. Copyright does not equal cool.
Don't get me wrong. I like a whole lot of what Slavicsek did. I loved the new monsters in the Terrors Beyond Tyr supplement. I'm glad he at least tried to make psionics a little cooler with his new rules, even though they were not playtested at all... He just bent the game in his own direction, and the players should not have to be strongarmed into accepting his interpretations.
as to rajaat, gamewise it is almost easier to rate him as a pyreen, or of pyreen origins. it's also a little more acceptable to me than other things Slavicsek came up with. rajaat's race i have wrestled with, and continue to do so. but in the end, i think redking is right... denning conceived of rajaat with a "human" heart.
please respond kamelion. i am curious to see your arguments. i do not have the appropriate novels with me to back up my arguments, but i addressed this in other threads you can find via google.
in fact, i'll just punch it up for you:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=8849197
hopefully that works.
consider the arguments.
I see him as a mutant pyreen because he is a mutant pyreen in the game material, and that's what works for me. I couldn't give a flying **** what the Prism Pentad says about the subject.
I see him as a mutant pyreen because he is a mutant pyreen in the game material, and that's what works for me. I couldn't give a flying **** what the Prism Pentad says about the subject.
A statement that has a certain finality to it, but hardly one that nurtures critical thinking.
Look, around the time that all these changes were made to the Dark Sun setting, TSR was going down the tube and was amassing debt that would reach 30 million dollars around a year after these products were published. There are numerous accounts of the chaos, not just financial, at TSR at those times, so it is not inconceivable that errors were made at that time.
All I am saying is that we can and should have a discussion about it. The original source of information about Rajaat does not give any hint that Rajaat might be a pyreen, but rather points to his essential human nature being at odds with the hideous reality of his freakish form. Given that, trying to work out when the decision was made to make Rajaat a pyreen and why that decision was made can be important. Did Troy Denning see Rajaat as a pyreen? I cannot speak for him, but really, I doubt it.
Like Kamelion points out, the point of the discussion is moot.
Some guys even had a problem with "champion" and "Champion", saying there was a difference between the capitalized and non-capitalized title.
* Here are some classics:
- Ktandeo is an halfling in Artifacts of Athas, even if Verdant Passage published years before describes him as a human. Kevin Melka made an error, simple. Despite him being listed as an halfling in that book, he's still officially a human.
- In the Paizo Dungeon Magazine publication for DS 300 years in the future, Hamanu is depicted as a centaur-like half-man, half-lion. The artist was not properly explained that he should be depicted as an "egyptian god"-like being with a human body and lion head. Despite him being depicted this way that one time, his main appearance is still officially that of a man with a lion head.
You have issue with 2nd edition Dark Sun, fine, but quit trying to provoke others that do use the 2nd edition.
Now the Prism Pentad says NOTHING about what Rajaat was before becoming a living god (yes I said it, but let be real how else would you describe a creature that can by mere presence change the color of a star). Rajaat has a humans heart - I've heard this in other genres, and it has nothing to do with the birth species it could simply mean Rajaat has an unbridled passion. Also with the Prism Pentad only covers the lives of what, some 5 individuals and their adventures. Leaves a lot of gamming holes now doesn’t it (unless you replay the same adventure over and over based solely on the 5 books). The First Edition only said so much, the Second added new regions (new regions that countered what had happened in the group I played in), we accepted it and moved on with the enjoyment of the game, get over this hang up – rant over.
Redking and I raise some issues however. Honestly, I would love for Rajaat to be a pyreen from the bottom up... just prove it to me. I am really quite open to changing my mind. Just because Slavicsek made it up doesn't mean I have to buy his lunch. Confer with redking's comments.
If everyone likes Pyreen Rajaat, but at least recognize where the campaign setting originally stood on the matter, that's one thing. But Denning did not seem to have a pyreen First Sorcerer in mind. If he did, truly, prove it, mention some quotes from something besides Slavicsek et al., and I'll believe you.
As to the community consensus, which i do sympathize with, I offer a bit of a little quote, as food for thought:
It is naively assumed that the fact that the majority of people share certain ideas or feelings proves the validity of these ideas and feelings. Nothing is further from the truth... Just as there is a 'Folie à deux' there is a 'folie à millions.' The fact that millions of people share the same vices does not make these vices virtues, the fact that they share so many errors does not make the errors to be truths, and the fact that millions of people share the same form of mental pathology does not make these people sane. ( Fromm, The Sane Society, Routledge, 1955, pp.14-15)
Redking, what is it with you - every thread I've seen you in you seem to be intent on nothing but stirring up a nest of hornets - almost to the point of trolling, almost.
You have issue with 2nd edition Dark Sun, fine, but quit trying to provoke others that do use the 2nd edition.
Not trying to troll, and got nothing against 2nd edition, but I am sounding out ideas that I am sure people want to discuss. When I see contradictory info, I try to work towards something that works, and makes sense. I also try to understand the intent of the designers. What I am not trying to do is tell people how to play their games.
Personally, I just want the game to *work*, and where possible we can either fill in the blanks or rationalize stuff that seems contradictory or impossible. I did so here, in an attempt to explain Sacha and Wyan's seemingly impossible displays of "dragon magic" (the definition of which itself is debatable!), by providing a 3E method in which they might have done so.
I read an interview with Troy Denning that said he and his co-creator were unhappy with the direction that Dark Sun had taken, and for that reason would not create a shared world again that he did not have any control over. I think statements like that deserve some consideration.
Redking, what is it with you - every thread I've seen you in you seem to be intent on nothing but stirring up a nest of hornets - almost to the point of trolling, almost.
You have issue with 2nd edition Dark Sun, fine, but quit trying to provoke others that do use the 2nd edition.
They are trolls. I don't know why anyone is even bothering to listen to them anymore.
They are trolls. I don't know why anyone is even bothering to listen to them anymore.
So someone making off topic comments with baseless accusations of trolling on a thread they could have ignored is not engaging in trolling? Here is a thread that people have taken an interest in, is a legitimate one, and you are trying to derail it with comments that have nothing to do with the subject matter. That is trolling. Quit it.
A statement that has a certain finality to it, but hardly one that nurtures critical thinking.
You asked how people see Rajaat. That's my answer, and my reason for it. Short and simple. Shocking as it might seem, the version given in the game material is quite sufficient for some people without any need for further navel-gazing on the subject. Denning's intentions are neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. He doesn't run my games. I do.
You, phaaf_glien or whomever else want to discuss the Rajaat topic further? Cool. Great. Just be aware that some posters have straightforward answers and opinions on the topic and try to accept their positions without making thinly-veiled remarks about their critical faculties, choices for consensus or sanity. Please.
Some guys even had a problem with "champion" and "Champion", saying there was a difference between the capitalized and non-capitalized title.
:D
>raises hand<
Irikos ftw!
Not trying to troll, and got nothing against 2nd edition, but I am sounding out ideas that I am sure people want to discuss. When I see contradictory info, I try to work towards something that works, and makes sense. I also try to understand the intent of the designers. What I am not trying to do is tell people how to play their games.
Personally, I just want the game to *work*, and where possible we can either fill in the blanks or rationalize stuff that seems contradictory or impossible.
So do we all. The thing is, though, we all have different criteria for what works and are all willing to let the discussion lie at different points. In many cases (like Rajaat and the origins of the sorcerer-kings) I choose to give the game material precedence over the novels. You don't. Where's the problem?
I read an interview with Troy Denning that said he and his co-creator were unhappy with the direction that Dark Sun had taken, and for that reason would not create a shared world again that he did not have any control over. I think statements like that deserve some consideration.
They do. And on these boards they have been given a great deal of consideration over the years. So when you raise the topic again now, don't be surprised that several of us already have reached our decisions on the matter and don't appreciate being told that we aren't thinking properly. Please
.So do we all. The thing is, though, we all have different criteria for what works and are all willing to let the discussion lie at different points. In many cases (like Rajaat and the origins of the sorcerer-kings) I choose to give the game material precedence over the novels. You don't. Where's the problem?
They do. And on these boards they have been given a great deal of consideration over the years. So when you raise the topic again now, don't be surprised that several of us already have reached our decisions on the matter and don't appreciate being told that we aren't thinking properly. Please
I am not out there demanding answers, or demanding that anyone respond to a thread they do not like. Nor do I hold certain posters responsible for a confusing canon that they had nothing to do with creating. You have an opinion and that is fine - no problem with it at all. However, since I started the thread seeking edification from my fellow contributors on this forum, I was hoping for a little more than defining Rajaat as a pyreen because it is written in some of the gaming material - I was well aware of that and the seeming contradiction is why I wrote this post in the first place. I like the dialectical method, and in this way we might come to a deeper understanding of the Dark Sun setting yet. Diverse opinion, not a cleansing war against opinions that are labeled as heterodox.
I am not out there demanding answers, or demanding that anyone respond to a thread they do not like. Nor do I hold certain posters responsible for a confusing canon that they had nothing to do with creating. You have an opinion and that is fine - no problem with it at all. However, since I started the thread seeking edification from my fellow contributors on this forum, I was hoping for a little more than defining Rajaat as a pyreen because it is written in some of the gaming material - I was well aware of that and the seeming contradiction is why I wrote this post in the first place. I like the dialectical method, and in this way we might come to a deeper understanding of the Dark Sun setting yet. Diverse opinion, not a cleansing war against opinions that are labeled as heterodox.
Fine. Then maybe you should have said as much in your original post. Because as it stands, all you asked was how posters see Rajaat, pyreen or new race. What a surprise that you got straightforward answers to the question that you asked, eh?
Fine. Then maybe you should have said as much in your original post. Because as it stands, all you asked was how posters see Rajaat, pyreen or new race. What a surprise that you got straightforward answers to the question that you asked, eh?
Fair enough. No hard feelings, then.
Anyone else have some opinions about Rajaat?
It could be that Rajaat's mother (a pyreen) may have wandered to closely to the Pristine Tower when she was with child. The mutating properties of the Tower may have warped Rajaat's body and soul while in the womb. At the same time the Tower could have instilled some subconscious desire within Rajaat to "restore things to the way it was before" and entwining their destinies.
Your conception of Rajaat as a unique being, or mutant, seems to me to have a very high level of probability. Your statement that he might have been, at inception, human, and was transformed by the awesome energies of the Tower seems to me to be especially cogent and possible. It would explain a human spirit, yet also explain Denning's aside that Rajaat's "humanity" was not "entirely true."
This is indeed a curious subject. For purposes of understanding the Cleansing War, I have labored to actually produce statistics for Rajaat. This has been difficult for me. If he is pyreen, this changes quite a few things. If he is human, or a human-based mutant, than it changes things just as much.
Stats for Rajaat might be useful for anyone dealing extensively with the SKs in game. For instance, if Vortexa has something in that Rajaat was one of the Tower's original spawn, and was thus a halfling at some point, it might explain why only Rajaat or his shadow people minions can only use the Steeple of Crystals, as it is set to only halfling use. If this were otherwise, one would imagine that the SKs would have devoted a great deal of attention to the site of the Pristine Tower, would have exterminated the shadow giants at the site, and would have used the power of the Mud Palace for their own purposes. The idea that they simply cannot has some weight. (Personally, they are probably terrified of the site, and would not willingly return to a place so associated with their betrayed master.)
All these matters are becoming difficult to solve. It would be worth confronting Denning or Tim Brown on these issues, as we have given them nearly 20 years of assiduous devotion, and they owe us that much. I should start a thread about questions that should be asked, and figure out a way to contact him so he can help put these issues to bed in a more permanent and authoritative way.
This is what we get for playing in someone else's world. Happily, I imagine many of us play in world's of our own design.
...
Recently, our beloved leader Androponis has been elected for yet another life term of dictatorship. This is useful in calming the troubled masses, as well as in boosting their wounded confidence and demoralized and dejected slave populations. The inauguration of the chief magistracy of one his senior templar servants will be upon us in a but a week or two, and I for one sigh with relief and hold my head up high in pride with the knowledge that, despite the changing of the chief magistracy, the people have had the wisdom to reinstall their most benevolent and Supreme Dictator to the august halls of the White Palace. The holders of the templar magistracies may change, but the mighty Androponis reigns above all. Hail Androponis, Regnal Archon, Imperator Maximus for life!
Fair enough. No hard feelings, then.
No worries mate
Hell, he could actually be a Rhulisti directly mutated by the Pristine Tower, a first generation child of the Rebirth.
This is one of the coolest ideas about Rajaat that I have ever read! Fantastic, Terminus! As a minor niggle, the full timeline gives us Rajaat's birthdate, and it's 260 years after the Rebirth. But that point of canon aside, I love the idea and would use it in a heartbeat, all else being equal. Good stuff.
Wild theory playing off of Terminus.
It could be that Rajaat's mother (a pyreen) may have wandered to closely to the Pristine Tower when she was with child. The mutating properties of the Tower may have warped Rajaat's body and soul while in the womb. At the same time the Tower could have instilled some subconscious desire within Rajaat to "restore things to the way it was before" and linking their fates to one another.
A great alternate view. This reminds me heavily of a piece of fanfic by Nyt from way back:
The Pain in a Mother's Womb
Cool ideas all round
.As a minor niggle, the full timeline gives us Rajaat's birthdate, and it's 260 years after the Rebirth.
I have that covered, my friend.
Rajaat found his Rhulisti living in the Pristine Tower, right? That means Rhulisti were still living there when he was born. A pregnant Rhulisti could have left the Pristine Tower,260 years into the Green Age, so her child could live free in the new world, and met with tragedy along the way(and set up further tragedy for the entire world by unleashing Rajaat into the world too close to the tower). Or Rajaat could even have been a very small child when he left the tower,and was subsequently injured and transformed. He would have vague memories of the rhulisti therein, and an instinctive sense of home, kin and belonging. It would also explain why they accepted him. Perhaps they somehow recognized him(maybe he had some possession of one of his parents when he showed up at the Tower).
I have that covered, my friend.
Rajaat found his Rhulisti living in the Pristine Tower, right? That means Rhulisti were still living there when he was born. A pregnant Rhulisti could have left the Pristine Tower,260 years into the Green Age, so her child could live free in the new world, and met with tragedy along the way(and set up further tragedy for the entire world by unleashing Rajaat into the world too close to the tower). Or Rajaat could even have been a very small child when he left the tower,and was subsequently injured and transformed. He would have vague memories of the rhulisti therein, and an instinctive sense of home, kin and belonging. It would also explain why they accepted him. Perhaps they somehow recognized him(maybe he had some possession of one of his parents when he showed up at the Tower).
Interesting. Perhaps Rajaat's mother came to the tower on purpose. Injured or dying, she sought to transform her unborn rhulisti child into the most powerful race of the Rebirth, a pyreen. Thinking to save him from her own fate, she only damned him to one far worse...
This "sleeper program" could have weakened over the centuries and when triggered (by the presence of Rajaat's mother) instead simply instilled the urge to return the world to the Blue Age and the Rhulisti.
Radical theory but thought it was worth throwing out there.
What if it were the plan of an embittered rhulisti (a nature bender perhaps) to place some sort of genetic programing into the Tower to inject an imprint of their personality into a nearby at a some predetermined time after the Rebirth?
This "sleeper program" could have weakened over the centuries and when triggered (by the presence of Rajaat's mother) instead simply instilled the urge to return the world to the Blue Age and the Rhulisti.
Radical theory but thought it was worth throwing out there.
If Rajaat's mother was one of the last nature benders driven into hiding since the Blue Age, this makes even more sense. A small cabal of nature benders could have stolen into the Tower and altered it, only to be caught and killed. Their descendants or followers might have known the Tower held some legacy of the nature benders, but not what. Rajaat, then, was intended all along to become a mutant and walk the terrible path he did.
Yeah, far-fetched, but kinda cool all the same :D
Maybe he was a creature unto himself, a unique mutation. In that day and age, with Pristine Tower mutations running rampant, a creature so obviously different than whatever parents spawned him could probably not be legitimately considered a member of his forbears' race. Maybe his fization on the Halflings developed from the realization(in his crazy brain) that they were the only living creatures he could identify with(especially if he was orphaned or abandonded as a child). They were the only thing he could imagine himself feeling a connection with, and would develop warped ideas skewed toward glorifying them a s a result. He probably considered himself a mutant Rhulisti, not a human or pyreen. In light of his extensive mutations and disfigurements, that description seems closest to the truth. Hell, he could actually be a Rhulisti directly mutated by the Pristine Tower, a first generation child of the Rebirth. Maybe his parents were fleeing the tower, and he had the misfortune to be born in its proximity. Even the minuscule injuries received during the safest of births would be enough to trigger mutation near the Tower. His warped infant self could have been abandoned, and picked up by some merciful human. Rajaat, being raised in the company of humans and possibly sharing some of their ideals or ways of thinking, or customs, could then be considered to have a human heart. It would explain why he chose human minions. Even though they're arguable the least specialized race on Athas, they would be the race whose heart he knew, and could manipulate. It could also explain why he couldn't teach his Rhulisti minions magic(at least, back then). Their minds and languages would have been different enough from his and those he understood that the translation of delicate and complex concepts would be difficult, and even if the words themselves were understood, context and connotations would require a LOT of effort, and maybe Rajaat gave up. But since they were his Holy Grail, he wouldn't hold their inability to use magic against them.Anyway, to sum it up - Rajaat is such a mutant freak that the only thing one can call him for certain is a mutant descendant of the Rhulisti. Being not only very small(before his imprisonment)but also physically weak (Apparently towards the end, according to some sources, he HAD to remain in the Pristine Tower to sustain himself, so decrepit with age was he), so he can't be an immortal Pyreen. Being a little mutant bound to a single location seems also give a crystal clear reason why he used Champions instead of taking care of everything himself.
Interesting theory. Could this mean that Rajaat's premise as given to the champions, that of protecting humanity against monsters of the rebirth like himself, have a kernel of truth? For every thousand freak produced by the mutation effects of the pristine tower that is probably too weak to survive in harsh environment of Athas, could one of them be a potential Rajaat, a deadly threat to the other races by virtue of having the potential to reach heights of power unachievable by the sorcerer-kings, matching that of Rajaat himself? Perhaps most die in their infancy, but there might be one of the new race monsters out there now, laying low until it is able to bring it's twisted vision to fruition.
If I were to run an Dark Sun campaign now, an occasional, usually violent, encounter with a new race monster would be essential. I get the feeling from the books that someone new creatures do emerge from the desert wastes, and despite the destruction of the environment, Athas has almost infinite biodiversity, courtesy of the pristine tower.
I tend to favor the idea that he is a new race member, but similar enough in form to humans that he was brought up amongst them, sympathized with them and had a "human spirit". Being that deformities were probably not that rare, he possibly thought himself in fact human, until his research brought him to the horrifying realization that he was just a hideous mistake of the haflings, the original custodians of Athas. For if the rebirth could bring about the likes of Rajaat, then surely the rebirth itself was flawed, and had to be reversed.
One other thing about Rajaat that bothered me, and is dealt with in rise and fall of a Dragon King, is why Rajaat just didn't wage the cleansing wars by himself, when he was capable of it. I actually find the explanation in RaFoaDK, that Rajaat did not want to dirty his hands with the genocide, convincing. Consider his injunction (to Tithian) against defiling magic - "never in the blue lands!". In the same way he probably has an almost religious aversion to doing his own dirty work, that the being that ushers in the second blue age cannot be tainted by the genocide of so many beings.
phaaf_glien, I think Rajaat would be interesting to stat out in 3E. 2E would be simpler but probably less powerful. But the number of character levels either way would be insane.
As a minor niggle, the full timeline gives us Rajaat's birthdate, and it's 260 years after the Rebirth. But that point of canon aside, I love the idea and would use it in a heartbeat, all else being equal.
Once I researched many entries, like the timeline section of Preservers & Defilers, the recounting of the psionic orb in CbtSS, etc, and it seemed to indicate the halflings shepherded the new races for a few centuries, living with them in their new cities, teaching them various lore before eventually letting themselves die out or emigrate to other distant parts.
In that context, Vortexa's idea could work.
from CbtSS, page 59 -
'The network of tunnels beneath Giustenal was constructed
(or, more correctly, shaped) by the halflings of
the Blue Age. The tunnels and the settlements they led
to were the halflings' response to the dying world around
them. Eventually, the idea of surviving the mistakes they
made lost appeal, and the halflings abandoned the
under-regions in order to lead Athas into its next age
the Rebirth.'
page 60 -
'Kataal the Mover, once a halfling from the Green
Age, still controls the psionic transportation system in
this tunnel.'
Indicates the halflings of the very early Green Age were not averse to the use of psionics and new technologies, unlike the Rhul-Than
A quote or two to support the possibilities, I'll add more as they turn up -
from CbtSS, page 59 -
'The network of tunnels beneath Giustenal was constructed
(or, more correctly, shaped) by the halflings of
the Blue Age. The tunnels and the settlements they led
to were the halflings’ response to the dying world around
them. Eventually, the idea of surviving the mistakes they
made lost appeal, and the halflings abandoned the
under-regions in order to lead Athas into its next age
the Rebirth.'
page 60 -
'Kataal the Mover, once a halfling from the Green
Age, still controls the psionic transportation system in
this tunnel.'
Indicates the halflings of the very early Green Age were not averse to the use of psionics and new technologies, unlike the Rhul-Than
Terminus, could that be the same psi-tech as in mind lords of the last sea? I am not at home at the moment and cannot confirm it.
BTW, are you in 3E or 2E?
I use all of the 2e material for everything except mechanics, for which I use 3.5 ingame but reference both in discussion( usually say which I'm referring to)
Supporting the "Rajaat was not born immortal, and therefor not born a Pyreen, from City by the Silt Sea, page 8 -
'Through his own incredible powers
of the Way and with the secrets of the halfling
nature-masters before him, Rajaat became immortal'
If he used the Way to accomplish this, it wasn't a direct mutation by whim of the Pristine Tower alone, as the Rebirth races were created. That process involved no psionics, and probably no real effort on the part of the transformee. That's probably how he got all mutated in the first place. his ego would never let him tell anybody about that, so those who knew him would probably record him as being born that way, so most histories would reflect that.
Here's more, from windriders of the Jagged cliffs - page 10 -
Occasionally, a child is born who displays marked differences from its parents or any
of the other members of the race. These “mutations” are a result of the close proximity
of the swamp at the base of the cliffs. Because of the force known as Rajaat’s
Curse, the rhul-thaun are more susceptible to mutation than other races. Their vulnerability
lies in the inheritance of the mutable nature of the rhulisti, from whom they
are directly descended. During the Rebirth (see Chapter 2), when the rhulisti were
altered into the various races of Athas, the newly changed breeds were intentionally
made to be stable, while the stock race kept its mutability. The rhul-thaun retain this
quality to a degree, and they occasionally find themselves changed by what they
regard as the evil energies of the swamp.
The changes are usually minor, causing slight alterations in build or coloring.
Individuals affected in this way can reach a height of 4 feet 6 inches; others have a
tendency toward obesity or multiple or disproportionate limbs. Those whose alterations
involve color have skin, hair, or eyes with bluish or greenish tints.
Rajjat was in the EPICENTER of the disaster he caused trying to directly tap the earth. He was incredibly powerful in the Way, and probably had some lifeshaped protection of some type, and could have protected himself from the worst of the effects. This paragraph also supports Rajaat being born a Halfling.The Rhul-Than afflicted by Rajaat's Curse look EXACTLY like him, including their size. They get BIGGER.
My revised favored idea is this -
Rajaat was born a Halfling.
He used psionics and lifeshaping to become immortal(heck, ok, maybe Pyreen developed their origin process from his work. He used Towder for this, and there were still untransformed Halflings there. I can't back this theory up much, though)
He got greedy. trying to discover a way to tap the planet directly for power, he violates the world and causes Rajaat's curse. gets all fugly and mutated. Loses his mind, and decides nobody should be anything other than a halfling, since he (in his mind) couldn't possibly make a mistake, nobody else should be allowed to try and get it right. Somewhere along the way, rajaat discovers another way to transform, but it's not what he envisions for himself(could be either the Dragon or Avangion process) and stays in his swamp mutated form until his imprisonment. Apparently, he figures out how to do what he wanted, because in the PP, he seems to be damn near omnipotent in his new form.
'At the edge of the river, in a thick, secluded forest, an immortal
pyreen conducted experiments the likes of which had never been seen on Athas. (The pyreen appeared during the Rebirth, and the new race had the characteristics of many newly created peoples.) This pyreen, called Rajaat, discovered the powers of magic at the base of the Jagged Cliffs.'
They flat out say he was a Pyreen, but what really is a Pyreen but a lifeshaped, psionic halfling? Sure, they are bigger, and mor robust, but that's about it. Point ears and all. Maybe the Pyreen as we think of them is what the race stabilized as, and the early ones were closer to their halfling forbears in appearance. But Rajaat being a mutant, appearance isn't the issue. Here's my revised idea -
Rajaat is born a Halfling
Discovers how to become Pyreen,using psionics and lifeshaping, and others follow suit, but go on a MUCh different path.Pyreen are natural druids, and who's to say Rajaat's natural druid powers weren't prominent in his experiments to create Arcane magic (a comprehension of how nature's power works helps a lot when you're trying to find another way to steal its power)Maybe the reason the Pyreen are so few in number is because they are descendended from a limited stock of Rhulisti who were able to master the psionics and lifeshaping involved in the transformation, and there could have been components of the method that made it impossible to perform the process on another. Hmm... Most Rhulisti couldn't comprehend magic, so perhaps the only way to inflict certain powerful transformations on another involves magic.... Rajaat did use magic to make his Champions(and Psionics too, but still, magic was included)
Rajaat goes to the base of the Jagged Cliffs and tries to use the planet itself to fuel his magic. It goes horrifically wrong, and not only does he create a swamp of abominations, and get mutated into a handsome new form, the blight lingers, and occasionally causes an unfortunate descendant of his original people(or a descendant of his people's distant cousins) to look very similar to him (lumpy body, big head, uneven limbs, weird jaws, etc) and they even match his size(from when he was alive).
continuing from WotJC, right after the last quote -
'
'This pyreen, called Rajaat, discovered the powers of magic at the base of the Jagged Cliffs. Although his skills were limited at first, his experiments into what became defiler magic caused plant and animal life to mutate. The flourishing woodland transformed into a huge swamp filled with the strange, uncontrolled energies released by Rajaat’s investigations into this uncharted territory. Then too, many of Rajaat’s experiments had ended in failure and these he released into the bog. The energies twisted and corrupted the swamp and the creatures that dwelled there, and plagued the halflings on the cliffs above with Rajaat’s Curse. The fearless halfling explorers who braved the journey into the swamp encountered Rajaat in his lair. The twisted pyreen attempted to share his gift with them but the rhul-thaun were terrified of what they saw, for they did not understand it. They fled the swamp, returning to their people with stories of horrible monsters and fantastic powers that defied the laws of nature. Rajaat left the swamp and ushered in the Time of Magic, the next age of Athas. Again, however, the rhul-thaun were completely ignorant of events that occurred beyond their limited domain. Rajaat, who had a special affinity for halflings and wished to keep their culture unsoiled, kept his silence concerning the rhul-thaun to the end of his life.'
Rajaat gets all mutated , but discovers defiling. A group of Rhul-Than discover him. He knows about magic know, and could make them into Pyreen and teach them magic and psionics if they wished. Not understanding(maybe not caring) that to become a Pyreen would not mean being all fugly like him(He was newly fugly), and seeing all of his hideous experiments and castoffs, they flee. They tell horrid stories about him and his surroundings and deeds, and begin the well documented rhul-than ostracism against anyone who uses Psionics, because Rajaat used psionics. Rajaat becomes immortalized as a kind of Rhul-Than Satan, and becomes associated with change and mysterious powers. The Rhul-Than fear their devil, and his works, and so shun anything that they cannot be assured their sacred and pure ancestors created, or passed them the knowledge of. They become even more insular and isolated, and so are protected in their hidden vertical lands.
hmmm...also from WotJC -
The first problem is Rajaat’s Curse. Being the village closest to the swamp means that
terrifying effects emanating from it present a greater risk to those who live here. The
mysterious incidents caused by the swamp’s energies sometimes result in disaster. Fire,
sickness, blight, and mysterious disappearances are all traced to Rajaat’s Curse. The
curse alters people, warping the bodies and even the minds of the inhabitants, particularly
the newborn.
Rajaat's curse warps minds,too... Maybe when Rajaat screwed up in his experiment, the planet's response was to create a place that mirrored his own twisted psyche and soul, and the lingering curse is a kind of strange, blind revenge on the Rhul-Than. It molds them into the visage of one of their own, who cursed the earth, and makes them feel his madness.
They were introduced to the game as 'fixers' (from a game mechanics point of view) much as in other settings dragons who can take human form pop up like Fizban or Elminster.
Asking if Rajaat is a Pyreen is like looking back to the Big Bang - the closer we get to the Rebirth, the less certain all of our facts are and they quite possibly are very different before that.
The purpose or intention of the Rajaat character is as a unique individual, himself the culmination and apex of conflicting forces, even the individual features of his body.
I expect it'd relate to whatever Raistlin & any number of extreme misfits have been base on (there's bound to be some base story or allegory somewhere).
Of the options I've seen, it seems likely that Pyreen are the result of supernatural transformation, before the age of dragons.
The other thing we're somewhat overlooking / assuming is a reason to classify him - what impact does it have on the game world? (partly rhetorical question but important nonetheless).
On a side note, you've touched on something I've overlooked - the inherent and very core 'mutability' of the Rhulitsi.
Lifeshaping and the Rebirth as an extension of the Rhulitsi's ideals and understanding supports the idea that they themselves (in stark contrast to Rajaat's feeling about the Rebirth races) are ... I wouldn't say highly mutable, but embrace aspects and the use of mutability.
Further side note, it wasn't Rajaat's 'mere presence' that altered Athas' Sun but powerful individuals (mis?)use of the Dark Lens to affect massively powerful magics via the Pristine Tower, arguably the most powerful artefacts in any campaign.
It's a fascinating topic with lots of great posts, I'll likely be re-reading it all more carefully several times.
edit: misspoke about his body being lots of bits plugged together, his body is completely without symmetry.
The rebirth never really stopped as the tower is still vomiting out new races.
It's now an uncontrolled, quasi-random process, plus the nearby area is pretty limited in terms of animal populations...there are some clueless wandering humanoid tribes that can still get caught and changed, though. That would IMO hardly equate the huge changes that occured at the time.
During the historic Rebirth time period the change was massive because it was controlled, channeled, probably expanded well beyond the current geographical reach of the tower, and those who controlled it actually provided fresh life for it to modify, usually in the form of themselves.
Philosophically-speaking, though, yeah the Rebirth is still going on...at a snail's pace.
Aren't they all just mutated halflings from the Pristine Tower?