SPOILER ALERT!!!!
Rajaat wanted to return the world to the halflings. Rajaat didn't make halflings his champions because they could not use magic. Now they can.
How do you see this impacting the original history of the time of magic? In 4e, why doesn't Rajaat choose halflings? How do you think the designers will handle this small issue? Because, mechanically, halflings could be champions in this edition.
Sorry, been re-reading all my old 2e DS loot.
During Rajaat's time halflings were pure, unchanged fellows from their original Blue Age form, thus unable to control magic.
This is fine, since play is during the Brown Age when not even halflings have any kind of class limitations anymore.
But in 4e, the halflings would have been able to learn magic during the time of magic. So Rajaat not wanting to corrupt them would have to go beyond just teaching them magic, since halflings probably would have already been learning it.
Rajaat not wanting to turn halflings into abominations(defiler dragons) could work. It will be interesting to see how wotc handles rewriting the fluff. 4e doesn't have the restrictions 2e did. So we will have thrikreen wizards, dwarven wizards, halfling wizards and so on. Nothing would stop a halfling from becoming a defiler dragon as it's ED unless those epic destinies are restricted to certain races. Which could also work.
But in 4e, the halflings would have been able to learn magic during the time of magic. So Rajaat not wanting to corrupt them would have to go beyond just teaching them magic, since halflings probably would have already been learning it.
Rajaat not wanting to turn halflings into abominations(defiler dragons) could work. It will be interesting to see how wotc handles rewriting the fluff. 4e doesn't have the restrictions 2e did. So we will have thrikreen wizards, dwarven wizards, halfling wizards and so on. Nothing would stop a halfling from becoming a defiler dragon as it's ED unless those epic destinies are restricted to certain races. Which could also work.
Well, the way I run it in my homebrew is that each edition is its own "age". What applied historically no longer applies now. So Rajaat didn't pick halflings because they couldn't be wizards. Now they can. Doesn't need to be any more complex than explaining what changed to make it possible now. It could be something related to the Pristine Tower, a fracturing of the Gray, leaking of The Black, or a shockwave from the Hollow imploding.
They don't have to retcon, they just have to explain.
Well, the way I run it in my homebrew is that each edition is its own "age". What applied historically no longer applies now. So Rajaat didn't pick halflings because they couldn't be wizards. Now they can. Doesn't need to be any more complex than explaining what changed to make it possible now. It could be something related to the Pristine Tower, a fracturing of the Gray, leaking of The Black, or a shockwave from the Hollow imploding.
They don't have to retcon, they just have to explain.
That's the thing, its not going to be a new age. The entire timeline is being reset. I think there'll be some kind of fluff to explain away why halflings can now take arcane classes. Its probably going to be "Well, they can but they just don't."
But in 4e, the halflings would have been able to learn magic during the time of magic. So Rajaat not wanting to corrupt them would have to go beyond just teaching them magic, since halflings probably would have already been learning it.
Rajaat not wanting to turn halflings into abominations(defiler dragons) could work. It will be interesting to see how wotc handles rewriting the fluff. 4e doesn't have the restrictions 2e did. So we will have thrikreen wizards, dwarven wizards, halfling wizards and so on. Nothing would stop a halfling from becoming a defiler dragon as it's ED unless those epic destinies are restricted to certain races. Which could also work.
Well, the way I run it in my homebrew is that each edition is its own "age". What applied historically no longer applies now. So Rajaat didn't pick halflings because they couldn't be wizards. Now they can. Doesn't need to be any more complex than explaining what changed to make it possible now. It could be something related to the Pristine Tower, a fracturing of the Gray, leaking of The Black, or a shockwave from the Hollow imploding.
They don't have to retcon, they just have to explain.
Yeah, they won't be going that route. DS is being reset and updated. What you're describing is more like a quick patch, which is fine for a homebrewed game, but not a professional product they hope to make money on. They'll have to either explain why halflings were not chosen in a way that makes sense, re-write the history of the time of magic. That's assuming they even talk about it. Chances are, it cold be ignored completely, especially if they can't come up with anything.
Let's remember something. There are racial norms when it comes to classes. Dwarves on Athas aren't normally interested in the arcane classes. Does this mean that there are never any dwarven wizards? No. But it does mean that the chances of running into a secret cabal of defiler dwarves is practically non-existant. An evil cabal of dwarven psions? Sure!
Yes, PC's will break the mold. They're heroes. Regular members of a race or city state are what give that group its identity as "normal" so if thri-kreen are normally rangers, druids, psions, and psywars (or battleminds or whatever they are now) then the majority of the NPCs that the PCs run into will be from that group. This is fantasy, no need to be PC and say that everything is equal and anyone can do anything. They can, but cultural norms are going to curtail certain choices.
Rajaat didn't choose halfings for one special reason: he didn't want them to be corrupted.Halflings were not chosen because of a lack of talent, but because of a lack of desire to do so on Rajaat's part.
Not according to the official 2e lore. Rajaat didn't choose them because they couldn't use magic. Besides, rajaat didn't love halflings. If making 15 of them his champions would have progressed his cause, he would have done it in a heartbeat and if halflings could of used magic in 2e, he would have chosen halflings as his champions. 15 individuals are not the entire race and as "we"might view champions as a corruption, rajaat might not have viewed it the same.
Let's remember something. There are racial norms when it comes to classes. Dwarves on Athas aren't normally interested in the arcane classes. Does this mean that there are never any dwarven wizards? No.
Actually, in 2e, that was correct. You would never encounter a dwarven wizard. In 4e, that will change.
Yes. There will be dwarven wizards in 4e. But they aren't racially normative. It isn't part of their culture. It's not like the United States where teens can use their parents money and buy their rebellion from Hot Topic to show that they don't conform to societies standards. Culture is huge, and it means that certain behaviors will not be tolerated and will result in expulsion. Halfling wizards will either be preservers, or be exiled or killed. They won't exist.
And it's not just that Rajaat needed to make 15 Champions, but he needed 15 armies with the intent to exterminate an entire race. That would have corrupted the entire halfing race, in that they would have become war-like and violent, unlike what he wanted to do which was return them to the Blue Age time of peace.
Just because a PC race can be something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. It doesn't mean that it will work.
you're missing the point.
I love irony.
It's not only that Rajaat didn't choose halflings because they couldn't be wizards (which isn't correct, as they could still be illusionists)
Actually, it is correct. See the revised box set, which is where the time of magic history fluff is located. Halflings could not use magic. Not even to become illusionists.
but also because halflings didn't culturally accept wizards.
Which wouldn't matter. If They became rajaat's champions, those individuals would have seen a higher calling. To return to the blue age. It wouldn't matter if they were outcasts or not. Their goal would have been seen as more important than social acceptance.
Yes. There will be dwarven wizards in 4e. But they aren't racially normative. It isn't part of their culture.
We have no idea what is part of their culture in the 4e version.
Halfling wizards will either be preservers, or be exiled or killed. They won't exist.
That's just your opinion as we have no idea how 4e will handle this.
And it's not just that Rajaat needed to make 15 Champions, but he needed 15 armies with the intent to exterminate an entire race.
Obviously.
That would have corrupted the entire halfing race, in that they would have become war-like and violent, unlike what he wanted to do which was return them to the Blue Age time of peace.
First, how would 15 individuals corrupt an entire race when that race doesn't accept wizards in their culture, makes no sense. Even if halflings were champions, they would have used the same people for their armies. If rajaat wanted halflings in the armies, they would have been. Halfling champions would have had armies of humans just like the champions did.
Also, halflings ARE war-like and violent, so he accomplished nothing on that front.
Just because a PC race can be something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. It doesn't mean that it will work.
If the player enjoys it, then it's a good idea and whether or not it will work is subjective. 4e DS won't be what it was. It will change to fit the new system, as it did in 3x. Only this time, there are far less restrictions. So 4e will have possibilities never before seen in dark sun. Like dwarf/halfling/thrikreen wizards and thrikreen/halfling templar. We can either accept it, houserule it or stick with older editions. Personally, I look forward to a 4e DS that isn't just mechanically different. I don't want it to be completely different, but less restrictions is a nice thing in my eyes.
Actually, it is correct. See the revised box set, which is where the time of magic history fluff is located. Halflings could not use magic. Not even to become illusionists.
Actually, see the original Dark Sun box set where halflings could become illusionists. Ah the inconstancies, you got to love them.
Duke, I was simply attempting to make sense of things so that it would be logically consistent with the cultural norms of the races as we have known them so far. Yes, I don't know what 4e will do to the history and the fluff. All I am doing is going off of what was out there before.
However, there are reasons why races seem to be more iconic when they are attached to specific classes. Because the themes and stories of those classes fit the themes and stories of the races.
For instance: When a player interacts with a Mul, they will assume that the mul is a gladiator. Why? Cause its normal for them to think of Muls as gladiators. Its part of their racial identity. Just like elves are sneaky liars, so they are likely to be thieves or mages. Does this mean that all of members of races are confined? No. It means that there are cultural norms that constrain what will be chosen.
As far as halflings go, Rajaat was protecting the Rhul Than, not the forest-dwelling-eat-your-for-lunch-and-make-your-finger-bones-into-jewelry halflings. The second type are part of the same accident that came from the Rebirth. They are savage, fallen, forgetful barbarians that wouldn't know what the Blue Age was and wouldn't have a clue to the ways of the old world. They may not have been targeted, but they weren't cared about.
Yes, 4e will change things. That doesn't mean that the past editions are now defunct. If it were, then why would we bother even talking about it? All I am saying is that culture shapes identity which in turn determines what you will see in the game. When was the last time you saw stats for a good drow paladin or a lawful good orc cleric in the new monster manuals? Maybe they are there, but they aren't normal representations of the races because they aren't culturally normative. I know that alignment doesn't exist anymore, but that's not the point. Fantasy isn't modern Western "be whatever you want" culture. It's more primitive and postmodern at the same time.
Duke, I was simply attempting to make sense of things so that it would be logically consistent with the cultural norms of the races as we have known them so far. Yes, I don't know what 4e will do to the history and the fluff. All I am doing is going off of what was out there before.
I agree and a large part of me hopes that 4e DS keeps with the original fluff. I can already play a halfling/thrikreen/dwarf wizard in another setting, so it would be nice to have restrictions in darksun. I'm very back and forth with that, as I can see the positive of both sides.
The problem is, 4e "fans" enjoy being able to do anything they want with no restrictions. If the game tells them "no", they throw a fit. (no offense) So if they can't play athasian dwarf wizards or thrikreen templars, some of them won't buy the setting, which is why wotc will try and make it as much of a kitchen sink setting as possible. Because that's what the puppies and kitties crowd wants.
They don't want darksun, they want a forgotten realms desert setting. At least that's my impression so far. I'm just trying to get into the same mentality so when 4e DS releases and it's not up to my original standards, I won't be too disapointed. So my point is, I hope you're right.
However, there are reasons why races seem to be more iconic when they are attached to specific classes. Because the themes and stories of those classes fit the themes and stories of the races.
And I hope the original themes are the same.. It's because of those unique cultures that I am a fan of 2e darksun. But if wotc isn't going to honor "tradition" then we have to consider what the new cultures would be like. Again, I hope you're right. I want darksun to be darksun.
For instance: When a player interacts with a Mul, they will assume that the mul is a gladiator. Why? Cause its normal for them to think of Muls as gladiators. Its part of their racial identity. Just like elves are sneaky liars, so they are likely to be thieves or mages. Does this mean that all of members of races are confined? No. It means that there are cultural norms that constrain what will be chosen.
I agree.
As far as halflings go, Rajaat was protecting the Rhul Than, not the forest-dwelling-eat-your-for-lunch-and-make-your-finger-bones-into-jewelry halflings. The second type are part of the same accident that came from the Rebirth. They are savage, fallen, forgetful barbarians that wouldn't know what the Blue Age was and wouldn't have a clue to the ways of the old world. They may not have been targeted, but they weren't cared about.
I'm shaky on this, but I'll take your word for it.
Yes, 4e will change things. That doesn't mean that the past editions are now defunct. If it were, then why would we bother even talking about it? All I am saying is that culture shapes identity which in turn determines what you will see in the game. When was the last time you saw stats for a good drow paladin or a lawful good orc cleric in the new monster manuals? Maybe they are there, but they aren't normal representations of the races because they aren't culturally normative. I know that alignment doesn't exist anymore, but that's not the point. Fantasy isn't modern Western "be whatever you want" culture. It's more primitive and postmodern at the same time.
I agree completely with the bolded part. Older editions shape current settings for me. But we really don't know what the new cultural norms will be. Do I hope they stick to the original ideals. Yes, absolutely. But wotc wants to sell a product and they are willing to do whatever they have to, in order to accomplish that. I hope they do right by the setting's origins, since that is what made darksun so unique. I hope we don't end up like a lot of FR fans. Pissed off at what 4e did to their setting.
Now I am all for less restrictions for players. I'd like there to be a way to fit anything into the setting, while not making those exceptions a common thing. That way my players can run a deva or a gnome without needing me to run another setting. I can do this without official support, but it would be nice to see what wotc would suggest. That way I'd have something to complain about.
Oh for Frak's sake, Duke, you're speaking to one of the best person at Athas.org, short of Brax, to interpret the fluff. At least come to the conversation with a smidgin of openmindedness; the "Actually, it is correct. See the revised box set" comment is nothing short of baiting, like a church-goer quoting the Bible to his parish priest, whose job is not reading from the Bible but interpreting it. You know perfectly well there were a few illusionist preserver halflings both in The Will and the Way, like the chieftain of the Ringing Mountains trade village of Ogo, and in the Prism Pentad, like Nok. Litteral interpretation of the scriptures, be they biblical or Athasian, leads to nothing but pitfalls.
Dude, I thought he was just another forum poster. If I'd of known he was an athasian loremaster, I would have been able to take my post in a different direction. Yes, I know that 2e (original) had halfling wizards which they got rid of with the revision, although I didn't remember either of the ones you listed. I also wasn't attempting to bait anyone, I guess it's just a posting habit I'v picked up on these forums and not to be taken personally. And I'm very openminded. Hence my stance on the new crap wotc might include in the setting. We also don't know if wotc will go by the original material or the revised material.
And for the record, you should already know that I'm a fan of athas.org and wanted you guys to work on 4e DS. But enjoying your material and being a fan won't stop me from coming here and arguing with you guys and making a total ass out of myself in the process. It's just what I do from time to time. You guys need "Athasian Overcouncil" in your friggin sigs.
They don't want darksun, they want a forgotten realms desert setting. At least that's my impression so far.
*Shudders.* I hope they don't do that. WotC has been marketing Dark Sun as a "post-apocolyptic" setting, not a "desert" setting... I get the impression that WotC knows the difference.
As far as halflings go, Rajaat was protecting the Rhul Than, not the forest-dwelling-eat-your-for-lunch-and-make-your-finger-bones-into-jewelry halflings. The second type are part of the same accident that came from the Rebirth. They are savage, fallen, forgetful barbarians that wouldn't know what the Blue Age was and wouldn't have a clue to the ways of the old world. They may not have been targeted, but they weren't cared about.
I'm shaky on this, but I'll take your word for it.
I think an analogy is due here (since I just took a course on population genetics!):
Imagine your large family tree. The ancient halflings (the Rhul Than, or whatever they were called) are like your great-great-great grandparents that did all these great things: They explored an ancient kingdom; Slew the last living dragon; Discovered penicillin; Was the legendary Pope; etc. Their names will go down in history! The modern day decendents are completely different: homeless addicts; downtroden in social status; savages; pennyless; etc. The two are still related by blood, no matter how one might argue. Are the two comparible in greatness? No. The modern day decendants will probably be given a pat on the back if they graduate from high school...
The Halflings of "modern" Dark Sun are the decendents of the great Halfligns of the past. They might even remember the old myths and stories of the past... but because they pale in comparison to their ancestors, they probably don't understand the significance of these myths. While modern day Halflings think of themselves as great because of the stories they tell and the blood that flows through their veins, this is far from reality.
They don't want darksun, they want a forgotten realms desert setting. At least that's my impression so far.
*Shudders.* I hope they don't do that. WotC has been marketing Dark Sun as a "post-apocolyptic" setting, not a "desert" setting... I get the impression that WotC knows the difference.
As far as halflings go, Rajaat was protecting the Rhul Than, not the forest-dwelling-eat-your-for-lunch-and-make-your-finger-bones-into-jewelry halflings. The second type are part of the same accident that came from the Rebirth. They are savage, fallen, forgetful barbarians that wouldn't know what the Blue Age was and wouldn't have a clue to the ways of the old world. They may not have been targeted, but they weren't cared about.
I'm shaky on this, but I'll take your word for it.
I think an analogy is due here (since I just took a course on population genetics!):
Imagine your large family tree. The ancient halflings (the Rhul Than, or whatever they were called) are like your great-great-great grandparents that did all these great things: They explored an ancient kingdom; Slew the last living dragon; Discovered penicillin; Was the legendary Pope; etc. Their names will go down in history! The modern day decendents are completely different: homeless addicts; downtroden in social status; savages; pennyless; etc. The two are still related by blood, no matter how one might argue. Are the two comparible in greatness? No. The modern day decendants will probably be given a pat on the back if they graduate from high school...
The Halflings of "modern" Dark Sun are the decendents of the great Halfligns of the past. They might even remember the old myths and stories of the past... but because they pale in comparison to their ancestors, they probably don't understand the significance of these myths. While modern day Halflings think of themselves as great because of the stories they tell and the blood that flows through their veins, this is far from reality.
Yeah, I get that, I'm just hazy on the halflings as a result of the rebirth and I don't have the time to read all my old 2e ds material, cover to cover. Best I can do is pick and choose, with quick glances at everything else.
*Shudders.* I hope they don't do that. WotC has been marketing Dark Sun as a "post-apocolyptic" setting, not a "desert" setting... I get the impression that WotC knows the difference.
I'm pretty sure they're not going to do it. Dark Sun had a flavor, at least early on before it started turning out that there were verdant paradises everywhere on Athas except for the tablelands. While there will be material for applying Dark Sun ideas to non-DS campaigns (like if you wanted one set in the Anarauch (sp?) in Forgotten Realms), the core of DS should be remaining the same.
If they had djinnis and efreetis to Athas...I'll vomit
Honestly, there are worse things. Steel and Gold Dragons, for example. Or Taurens and Trolls.
They don't want darksun, they want a forgotten realms desert setting. At least that's my impression so far.
*Shudders.* I hope they don't do that. WotC has been marketing Dark Sun as a "post-apocolyptic" setting, not a "desert" setting... I get the impression that WotC knows the difference.Yeah, I get that, I'm just hazy on the halflings as a result of the rebirth and I don't have the time to read all my old 2e ds material, cover to cover. Best I can do is pick and choose, with quick glances at everything else.
That's because the feral halflings aren't a direct result of the rebirth, but a side-effect. My personal theory is, when the rebirth happened, the remaining halflings separated themselves from everyone else, taking to the deep hidden forests, etc. Over time, they had "de-evolved" into a less-advanced race. By the time the Cleansing Wars took place, they had become very similar to the halflings we know and love now, but I'd say still without the cannibalistic tendencies -- that is, very tribal, very distant from civilization, and very, very detached from the rest of the world. By the time of the Sorcerer-Kings, the world was stripped pretty barren, their lush forests a ghost of what they once were, the halflings became feral, angry, and started to view other races as not even sentient (possibly from some manipulation either directly or indirectly by Rajaat or his followers). So, they began to see the other races as about the same level as we see chickens and cows -- good for food.
Now, if the concept of the feral halflings are a result of the rebirth is in the sense that if it wasn't for the rebirth there wouldn't have been any feral halflings, I'd agree. If it was that the Pristine Tower transformed the rhulisti into feral halflings directly, I'd disagree.
Of course, I've also run a campaign where the Rhulisti returned, and weren't very friendly. I went with an interesting twist that I've proposed a few times on this forum years ago -- that many of the Rhulisti had escaped Athas, and went out into space... only to return a changed species. No longer the Rhulisti of legend, they became aggressive, and territorial. They had become basically the Yuuzhon-Vong from the Star Wars Expanded Universe (since... Troy Denning helped with the New Jedi Order series of books from which they came, I see them as somewhat the literary descendants of the Rhulisti... there is some similarities, like their organic living technology). I made them completely immune to arcane magic (like how the Yuuzhon Vong were immune to the Force), and they considered psionics an aberration that must be destroyed.
It made for an interesting, if epic-level campaign by the time it was all finished. Ended up with them killing a few Sorcerer-Kings, completely destroying Nibenay, and claiming the Valley of the Cerulean Storm as their own.
If they add djinnis and efreetis to Athas...I'll vomit
Actually, Djinni, Efreeti, Dao, and Jann were on the Enounter Tables of the 2e DS Terrors of Athas Monstrous Compendium.
Doesn't mean that didn't suck. Arabian legends mixing up with postapocalyptic...
Well, given that they are creatures of great *elemental* power, I don't really see the problem.
Dray Vilichi and Thri-Kreen Templars and Women Pilots ... that'd be the day. They should start publishing choose-your-own-adventure eBooks for this crud. cause ya see, if one thing could be something it isn't typically that's like a choice ... but maybe it's not one the author wrote, but unless they specifically said FIRE AND BRIMSTONE BE!!! *thunder* is OK. alternate ending 46298305, buncha monkeys.
WHAT?!? Your choose-your-own-adventure comment passed right over my head. I used to like those books... the final fantasy games were fun! Getting me to read something, anything, when I was 10 had to be fun.
And what's with the sexist comment about women pilots? If it was intended to be funny, it wasn't. It's inappropriate.
- Dray Vilichi (read as Dragonborn Druid) could verywell happen in 4E though Dray weren't previously an official PC race.
- Thir-Kreen Templars, though ThriKreen were originally restricted from being Templars, with the revised boxset's removal of templars as a playable class, some DM's, including myself added some Thri-Kreen Templars to the newly revealed citystates as NPCs.
- Women Pilots have been around since the first decade of flight. Anyone reading "that'd be the day" as non-sarcastic, is ignoring of the history of flight. And yes, I was playing with the stereotype of stereotypers.
- Halfling Arcanists while canonically prohibited, sometimes are houseruled into exception ... plus it's been awhile since Rajaat loved them so.
@Big_Goon: I loved CYOA books and seriously believe they should be eBookified. And by "crud" I mean the ordering and classifications for the systematic application of IMAGINATION. cause ya see, if the church says HERESY! and you hear HERSHEY! then take a break from the TV cause a commercial's on. CYOA really would be interesting for eBooks though; there could be locks from going back to the previous choice for those who only skip to the end. More realistic that way (w/ locks) ... cause time is linear, except when it isn't.
...
To put it simply change is constant-ly happening and there are always more options than the choices you're explicitly given to choose between.
Stereotypes are excellent for establishing players' first impressions. If a DM starts diverging too often or too far from stereotypes (wow... that's like the third Dwarf that's broken his promise!), the players can become confused or will re-build their own stereotype.
Thri-Kreen Templars and Dray Druids and Halfling Defilers are all fine... but they probably won't act like your stereotypical Thri-Kreen or Dray or Halfling.
What are you all talking about? Halflings can't be casters! That's a known fact of this world. It's simply impossible.
Wait, this (player-character) halfling can? I can't believe that! What kind of odd circumstances and weird background could made this possible? He certainly is unique in this whole world. He must have some great destiny to exist or be fated to do great things. Or he will be hunted and shunned wherever he goes simply for being something that can't exist. Probably both.
Sounds like a good game to me.
EDIT: Oh, and he will attract a lot of undesired attention to him.
Call me crazy, but I always thought DS's prehistory was inane. I have my fingers crossed that WotC will handle the problem by simply removing "halflings are the original race" and Rajaat's backstory entirely. The sorcerer kings could simply be powerful, ancient jerks.
www.wizards.com/dnd/cc.aspx - click on Rajaat, he's the first name listed. They may gloss things over and give minimal info about it, but they seem to be keeping Rajaat, and Athas' history in the mix thus far. Now uncross those fingers, you'd don't want people to think you're lying about something.
Halflings didnt lose that ability until the revised setting wiped out specialist wizards and with it the halfling illusionist. So hopefully 4e DS wipes away that oversight along with the rest of the Revised setting changes to restore DS to its rightful canon. ;)
Halflings of course could be casters in the original edition of Dark Sun. In fact theres statblocks for a halfling illusionist/psionicist in Ivory Triangle.
Halflings didnt lose that ability until the revised setting wiped out specialist wizards and with it the halfling illusionist. So hopefully 4e DS wipes away that oversight along with the rest of the Revised setting changes to restore DS to its rightful canon. ;)
Barring the return of those ever-annoying specialist wizards. I never liked those mechanics.
Nok is definitly an illusionist wizard.
Barring the return of those ever-annoying specialist wizards. I never liked those mechanics.
Yeah, I think WotC's developers also aren't fond of the mechanic. I'm halfway expecting to see some of the more popular "specialist wizards" being classes in their own right in later supplements. Like when they introduce the "shadow" power source (or whatever it will be called), they could have Necromancer as a class which uses that power source, separate and independent of the Wizard class.
Yeah, I think WotC's developers also aren't fond of the mechanic. I'm halfway expecting to see some of the more popular "specialist wizards" being classes in their own right in later supplements. Like when they introduce the "shadow" power source (or whatever it will be called), they could have Necromancer as a class which uses that power source, separate and independent of the Wizard class.
Ooo - isn't that what happened to Dark Sun with the "oil spill" from the Black that created the... Dead Lands on Athas? I only saw it in a timeline, but it seemed to suggest that necromantic magic was distinctly different from preserving/defiling magic.
Yeah, I think WotC's developers also aren't fond of the mechanic. I'm halfway expecting to see some of the more popular "specialist wizards" being classes in their own right in later supplements. Like when they introduce the "shadow" power source (or whatever it will be called), they could have Necromancer as a class which uses that power source, separate and independent of the Wizard class.
Ooo - isn't that what happened to Dark Sun with the "oil spill" from the Black that created the... Dead Lands on Athas? I only saw it in a timeline, but it seemed to suggest that necromantic magic was distinctly different from preserving/defiling magic.
Kinda, the Deadlands are more of an Obsidian spell than anything :P
Actually, I'm fully expecting the "shadow" power source to be available when they launch Ravenloft as a setting. Just like I wouldn't be surprised if there was an undead race to play (something from the Necropolis, if they progress the timeline to after Azilan's Big Oops).
Have they confirmed Ravenloft? I thought the existing 4e Domains of Dread ongoing series of DDI articles already covered the bits of Ravenloft that didn't overlap with standard fantasy settings (and thus worth adding).
No, I'm not saying they've confirmed anything, just that it would be a logical choice for introducing the "shadow" power source like they hinted at in the PHB1. But, then again, the PHB1 also hinted at "ki energy" which got rolled into "psionics", so it all should be taken with a grain of salt.
Shadow is already out, Xlorep. It's in DDI. I think it's the assassin that first got to use it. The power source will be found in PH3 as well, like you said; the assassin is a DDI exclusive (and one damn interesting class).
Figures. And do you mean PHB4?
i figure if the PCs are living in the current age of Athas, whatever fluff and history exists in the past is outside of mechanical restrictions simply because the players aren't living in the blue age with halfings; and none of the adventures take place there (or the green age for that matter). plus, the halflings' not using magic doesn't necessarily denote an inability to use it, but rather an ignorance of it's existance. they couldn't learn of something they had no concept or knowledge of. thus, in the current age, halfings can use magic because now it is known...same goes for other races. after the cleansing wars various preservers and defilers hid out and taught their knowledge to any who wished to learn it. before it was only taught by rajaat to the champions (and a few select others) for the purposes of cleansing the world of all those darn pesky faeries and gnomes and stinky orcs.
also, IIRC, rajaat chose humans to be champions because they were the only race capable of greater levels of magic power. in 2e ONLY humans could become mega-powered magic users (i.e. - 20/20 dual classed magic user and psionicist). futhermore, ONLY humans could cast the spell to become dragons. thus, in 2e all the sorcerer kings were (once) human.
in the 4e incarnation it could be that any race can become a dragon with the right ritual, but this ritual may have been researched by other wizards who weren't human and altered the ritual to fit their race. it's also a possible epic destiny quest(s) for any character who wants to become an advanced being as well.
IIRC, rajaat chose humans to be champions because they were the only race capable of greater levels of magic power. in 2e ONLY humans could become mega-powered magic users (i.e. - 20/20 dual classed magic user and psionicist). futhermore, ONLY humans could cast the spell to become dragons. thus, in 2e all the sorcerer kings were (once) human.in the 4e incarnation it could be that any race can become a dragon with the right ritual, but this ritual may have been researched by other wizards who weren't human and altered the ritual to fit their race. it's also a possible epic destiny quest(s) for any character who wants to become an advanced being as well.
It would be a mistake to ignore DS3, jumping from DS2 to DS4 in one breath, as DS3 brought to a logical conclusion many of the setting elements. Most people have DS2 at home, and now will have DS4...while an enormous amount of backstory was invented or expanded upon for DS3, stuff anyone will miss if they don't familiarize themselves with it.
For example, what are Undissolved and Dishonored Spirits, and what is the latter's link with T'lizes? See Terrors of the Dead Lands, a DS3 product. How did the new expanded upon rules deal with an elf trying to become a dragon? How did the ever changing multi/dual-classing rules affect transition to an advanced being?
I for one will make as much use of Athas.org's DS3 as TSR's DS2...while playing WotC's DS4.
i figure if the PCs are living in the current age of Athas, whatever fluff and history exists in the past is outside of mechanical restrictions simply because the players aren't living in the blue age with halfings; and none of the adventures take place there (or the green age for that matter). plus, the halflings' not using magic doesn't necessarily denote an inability to use it, but rather an ignorance of it's existance. they couldn't learn of something they had no concept or knowledge of. thus, in the current age, halfings can use magic because now it is known...same goes for other races. after the cleansing wars various preservers and defilers hid out and taught their knowledge to any who wished to learn it. before it was only taught by rajaat to the champions (and a few select others) for the purposes of cleansing the world of all those darn pesky faeries and gnomes and stinky orcs.
also, IIRC, rajaat chose humans to be champions because they were the only race capable of greater levels of magic power. in 2e ONLY humans could become mega-powered magic users (i.e. - 20/20 dual classed magic user and psionicist). futhermore, ONLY humans could cast the spell to become dragons. thus, in 2e all the sorcerer kings were (once) human.
in the 4e incarnation it could be that any race can become a dragon with the right ritual, but this ritual may have been researched by other wizards who weren't human and altered the ritual to fit their race. it's also a possible epic destiny quest(s) for any character who wants to become an advanced being as well.
DS3 from Athas.org (and the Paizo "Dim Sun" rendition) outlined Dragons/Avangions as being available to all races, this isn't new to DS4. The flavor rendition of why humans were chosen was that the race was the most malleable to Rajaat's will, and taking some ideas from Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, all of the Champions being a single race had the added convenience of being easily wiped out by the eventual Champion against Humans (Hamanu).
It also would be good to note that there is a distinguising factor between being a Champion, being a Sorcerer-King, and being a Dragon. All SK's are Champions & Dragons (well, Kurn's is an Avangion, but I digress), but not all Champions are Dragons and not all Dragons are Champions, and not all Champions or Dragons are SK's.