Repurposed Veiled Alliance - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 qsoe Dec 22, 2011 9:38:12	It will be long, but worth reading I hope: I have recently inherited a Dark Sun party, as the original DM did not have enough free time. I started thinking about the power structure of the VA, when it hit me: according to the new rules, there was no reason a Veiled Alliance, as the protector of the Preservers, would exist. Defiling is different In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses. Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy? Spellcasting is different In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before. Spellcasters are different Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more. Templars are different too Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him. Implications for the general population There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars? This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters? They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes. Implications for the PCs Templars do not search for arcane casters, they search for potential threats. Threats for the sorcerer king, and especially for themselves as they are not linked to the SK any more. There are no lynching of suspected Defilers, as there are too many potential targets, and no reason to really hate/fear them. Lynching actual users of the Arcane Defiling would make sense, however as you can decide not to use it with witnesses present, it hardly ever happens. The Veiled Alliance does not help Preservers, as they do not need help. How to deal with this There are two options, change the rule, or change the fluff. Change the rule I do not like the Arcane Defiling power, it has no permanent effect, a sleeping Defiler looks the same as a sleeping Preserver. It is not frequent enough (you have at most 4 daily attacks, and more than half of them hits statistically) and not tempting enough (there is a quite high price especially in a larger party). I would like to find a solution that is more like the one from DS 3.5. It marks you, costs you, but is actually enticing to be used. Of course Silent, Still, Extended etc spell does not really make sense, but you can have Quickened and Maximized. Obviously normal citizens still can not recognize Defilers, but defiling is much more enticing and frequent, so they might know it, and druids can find the Taint. Templars still do not care if you are a wizard or not, once you are noticed as being powerful, you either serve, or die. Change the fluff This is the part where I connect to the title, now the Veiled Alliance is not the keeper of Preservers, but the People's Liberation Front. Their main objective is to subvert the sorcerer-kings, and end slavery. Everyone can be member, arcane casters have no special status. I would leave the gardening to the druids and shamans. What do you think?
#2 Raddu76 Dec 22, 2011 10:52:41	Defiling is different In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses. Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy? So far, no one in my games has played a defiler, but all of my NPC's defile every time they cast a spell if they're a defiler. Also I use the defiler powers from my own Dark Heart Defiler's theme as well as the Threats of Athas article. If I did have a defiler PC, they would defile with every spell (only affecting plantlife) and could use Arcane Defiling to re-roll. Spellcasting is different In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before. This is a matter of rules interpretation. If you cast a spell that is Ranged or Area Effect you trigger an opportunity attack from adjacent enemies. I take this as waving your hands and muttering curses and being in concentration, thus suffering an opportunity attack. Spellcasters are different Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more. IMO SKs sought out wizards to reduce their competition and hide knowledge. While PC classes may become as powerful as a SK, NPCs will not, unless they're powerful in magic and psionics. Its just a matter of how you look at it. with 4e PCs and NPCs are not on the same level as they were in 3e. Templars are different too Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him. I completely ignore the idea that Warlock Templars are not connected to their SK. Other classes, yes, Warlocks with the SK Pact, no. Implications for the general population There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars? This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters? They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes. 1) Yes, all magic in the city-states is illegal. SK's might tolerate some elemental priests, but thats it. 2) There's a common view in the world that Defiler's (all wizards) are responsible for the state the world in and thus the cuase for the struggle to survive. 3)All SK Pact Warlocks get their magic from the SK, thus they do not defile in my game.
#3 qsoe Dec 23, 2011 8:57:34	In my opinion even a fictional fantasy world should make sense. A race that is depicted as "big and strong but not too bright" should not have +2 Int and +2 Cha as racial bonus. If the PCs save the son of a merchant, and they are punished instead of rewarded, there should be a reason for that. Defiling Chemical companies do not lay hazardous waste in your back yard because they are evil or hate your guts, they do it because it is profitable. If properly neutralizing it would be cheaper than dumping it, they had done it. There might be some insane individuals who defile just for the fun, but they should be a tiny minority. Under the current rules defiling is not profitable most of the time, so why would anyone use it. They can choose not to do it without any consequences, and they even save food that way for their mounts. Arcane magic Dictators ban the free press, as it is a threat for them, but only the insane ones ban Elvis Presly. To be worth banning something it should be identifiable, and threatening. Arcane magic *was* both, but is neither. Funny you should mention psionics, it is a great example for both of my points. It was not mentioned, because it was not identifiable. Also even according to you it is as threatening as arcane, but still was not banned. Prohibiting arcane magic, when it was more powerful than anything else made sense, not any more. Also do not forget that Rikus was no arcane caster, and he took down Kalak down more or less. Banning arcane magic is like banning swords, but not spears. Spellcasting I do not think this is free to interpretation, you can cast spells while immobilized, silenced, underwater, or in a Purple Worms intestines. This *must* mean you do not need hand signals and be able to speak. As a DM, you are free to change that, but this is not interpretation, rather a modification. And as a logical consequence, in your Athas, PCs can not cast spells in a Mekilots stomach, or grabbed. Templars Of course you can rule that their magic dies with their Sorcerer-king, but it would mean that Tithian is about as threatening as an average 12 year goblin girl with half a leg and a heart condition. If Urik have not invaded Tyr yet, the Nobles or the VA would have taken the power to themselves.
#4 Ozmodious Dec 23, 2011 13:24:43	This may sound dumb but this is how I explain spellcasting to my players when asked how do people know you are casting arcane magic and they bought it. So a shamon is in town and wants to cast a primal spell levitate to get to a second story window: He castes the spell and primal energy ( we will say a cloud of dust raises him to the window.) Witnesses see the primal energy as primal. A wzard attempts the same feat but uses arcane. He castes the spell and arcane energy( we will say a glowing yellow platform rises to the window). Witnesses see "Magic" and scream defiler. I use the fluff and imagination to make the spells different from one another in a way that witnesses can tell. Arcane would seem so alien to the magics that are seen everyday that it strikes fear in all who witness it even if the effect is the same as a primal casters.
#5 Raddu76 Dec 23, 2011 21:17:33	qsoe: Yeah, I have a world view from the 2e books so even in 4e my Athas works like that. If the rules of 4e dont match up I add/change/ignore them. So you're really trying to make the fiction match the 4e rules set very closely, then I think your originial ideas sound pretty good for changing the VA. As to the Tyrian Templars, Tithian still had the army to help him out and the gladiators. A lot of what was interesting to me was the role the Veiled Alliance was being pushed to, that of coming out and helping Tyr as magical power. I was hoping that they would end up opening a state sponsored Preserver school for Templars and whoever, alas the metaplot never made it there back in the day. Ozmodious That works. One of the things I liked about the old DS and D&D in general was that all of the "power sources" even though we didnt call them that back int he day felt different. Arcane magic worked different than, psionics, which worked different than Divine(elemental) magic. SO there was never a question as to what spell was being cast. I would say that Arcane casters make magic symbols in the air and say magic words and they all put their hand down to gather life energy from nearby plants (Preservers just dont kill them). Primal casters whisper favors of the primal spirits and may clutch a totem. Psionic characters may become still and introspective for a moment, or if you prefer a visual cue, they may have silver sparks emanate from their head or a golden halo of energy appear.
#6 terminus_vortexa Dec 23, 2011 22:50:07	I just kept my campaign in 3.5 and Pathfinder (who recently released a revised Psionics rulebook, btw) I use the Athas,org 3.5 Defiling rules, and the world just makes more sense. I acknowledge the simplicity of the 4e system, especially for people unwilling to have a whole bookshelf and printed binders of stuff, 4e is good for other settings, I guess, but is incapable of properly capturing the dynamic of Dark Sun, despite its massive retcons and such. The preserver/defiler line is a joke in 4e. And I really see no reason they had to completely change the nature of Elemental Clerics, or even Templars. Easier and more canonical with the novels to just have those classes use the Cleric rules, flavored for the character. Again, I guess 4e has its uses for other players, DMs, and settings, but does not truly capture the traditional feel of Dark Sun. A 3.5E dragon using Athas.org rules would destroy a 4e dragon, based on powers and descriptions alone. The 4e Advanced Beings just make weak characters a little more flavorful. I am hoping whenever 5E comes out, they go back to a system that does not restrict ones powers to Daily/At Will/Encounter. Sorry for the tangent, but what they did to DS in 4E is a real sore spot for me.
#7 qsoe Dec 24, 2011 6:56:45	4E made some interesting changes to DS, warlock templars is one of them. Every warlock makes a Pact with a powerful being, that is not a god. For the templars, it is the sorcerer-king. This is really flavorful, but also makes them extremly vulnerable (Tyrian templars). In my opinion sorcerer-king pact warlocks make more sense than clerics. Unfortunately it is bad news for Player Characters, but can be curcumvented by careful DMing, like keeping the SK alive, or make a new pact wiht Ul-Athra. The new defiling rules make no sense for me either, but it can probably be mended. I do not think the Daily/At-will/Encounter system is to blame, I really like it, made gameplay more fun and colorful for magic users and martial characters alike. I blame the decision to defile only with dailies.
#8 Alter_Boy Dec 29, 2011 20:37:40	In Robert J. Schwalb's novel Death Mark, one of the characters is a Templar (presumed Sorceror-King Warlock) who retains his powers, although many of his colleagues do not. I don't know if the author's assumption was that Kalak is still alive, or that the arcane power can live on within some individuals after the source has been removed (not unlike downloading a video before its original host pulls it down). YMMV.
#9 geck0990 Feb 06, 2012 22:56:04	Defiling is different In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses. Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy? Honestly I believe having the choice to defile on a spell-by-spell basis makes it far more interesting from a player standpoint. It might not have happened to your players, but there have been plenty of moments in my two-year campaign where the party arcanists (who have a hatred of defiling) have rolled terribly at a critical points in the story, and it's quite enjoyable as a DM to smirk at them and point out "There's another option you know...". The knowledge that there is a way to get that little power boost you need can be quite tempting to both the characters and the players, with wonderful story results either way. Spellcasting is different In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before. Fair point, that's one of my small complaints about 4th. Spellcasters are different Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more. There is still just as much reason to hunt down and imprison/execute any suspected arcanists, even if they don't threaten the sorcerer-kings directly. Crops. Defiling does render the land sterile, which means even a handful of arcanists could ravage the crops sustaining a city, and if left unchecked could sterilize enough of the fields that city could starve. From a completely pragmatic (even justified) viewpoint it would make perfect sense to keep arcanists under a watchful eye and iron grip, because even if they claim to be preservers they still have the capability to defile. Templars are different too Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him. Depends on how you choose to interpret it. Barring sorcerers, spellcasters improve their power largely through study of magical lore or learning forgotten secrets. Most (perhaps all) of this knowledge would be jealously guarded by the kings to be handed out as rewards to templars that please them. True, should the king fall templars will not lose the power they already have, but they also lose access to the vast amounts of knowledge and power their king held. They lose the carrot on the stick, so to speak. Implications for the general population There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars? This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters? They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes. 1. Completely correct, the general populace will have no way of knowing if any given spell is primal, psionic, or arcane. And to me it makes sense that they absolutely report all magical phenomena because the general populace would greatly fear any magic, see next point. 2. That defiling ended the green age is fairly common knowledge. If you, living in the harsh world of Athas, had heard these wonderful tales of how the world was once lush and cool, with gods in the heavens and water for all, and it all ended because a few blasted wizards wanted to squeeze a a little more power into their spells, wouldn't you grow to resent and hate them? That it can still be observed and felt to this day would only stoke the flames because you have a target to blame. 3. I disagree. You see police carry guns every day, yet if you hear gunfire in your neighborhood are you going to assume "undercover cop" and not report it? Implications for the PCs Templars do not search for arcane casters, they search for potential threats. Threats for the sorcerer king, and especially for themselves as they are not linked to the SK any more. There are no lynching of suspected Defilers, as there are too many potential targets, and no reason to really hate/fear them. Lynching actual users of the Arcane Defiling would make sense, however as you can decide not to use it with witnesses present, it hardly ever happens. The Veiled Alliance does not help Preservers, as they do not need help. As above, there is still just as much reason to fear and hate all arcanists, even those who have not defiled in front of you, simply because they have the capability. In that regard the VA would change little, they might actually keep a closer eye on their own to ensure they never fall to temptation. How to deal with this There are two options, change the rule, or change the fluff. Change the rule I do not like the Arcane Defiling power, it has no permanent effect, a sleeping Defiler looks the same as a sleeping Preserver. It is not frequent enough (you have at most 4 daily attacks, and more than half of them hits statistically) and not tempting enough (there is a quite high price especially in a larger party). I would like to find a solution that is more like the one from DS 3.5. It marks you, costs you, but is actually enticing to be used. Of course Silent, Still, Extended etc spell does not really make sense, but you can have Quickened and Maximized. Obviously normal citizens still can not recognize Defilers, but defiling is much more enticing and frequent, so they might know it, and druids can find the Taint. Templars still do not care if you are a wizard or not, once you are noticed as being powerful, you either serve, or die. I too think the power should be a little broader, I would like to see it extend to encounter powers and perhaps give a bonus to the damage roll. Change the fluff This is the part where I connect to the title, now the Veiled Alliance is not the keeper of Preservers, but the People's Liberation Front. Their main objective is to subvert the sorcerer-kings, and end slavery. Everyone can be member, arcane casters have no special status. I would leave the gardening to the druids and shamans. What do you think? Funny you should mention them as the People's Liberation Front, as that's exactly how I interpret them in my home game, to the point of making them slightly darker and less noble. My players affectionately (and sometimes not-so-affectionately) refer to them as "those damned elven terrorists" after they violently disrupted elections in Balic and attempted to assassinate a player who's a Praetor. Ultimately the changes give the DM more freedom to take the game in the direction they want. I thought the VA were much more interesting for my game by taking them down a darker path, but even with the changes to defiling it makes a good deal of sense to leave them as they are. There is still a good deal of justification to shape them however you think will suit your game best.
#10 Kurmudgeon Feb 09, 2012 15:33:36	On the whole, I think there is a lot of dissatisfaction with how deflining works. Defiling destroyed the worlds after all, it should be prominant and powerful, game balance be damned. It should destroy plant life, hurt your allies and innocent bystanders, and it should do so because it is inherently a selfish act. It should also be so tempting that it takes a great deal of restraint not to do so. Though, if you defile everytime you cast a spell and it hurts your allies they will eventually get sick of it and defile you right back. That's where the balance comes in
#11 dreamernaut Feb 10, 2012 3:35:05	There's only two issues I have with Arcane defiling really. You defile, you get a second attack or damage role by sacrificing a little HP. I can deal with that I suppose. The every ally in a 100' foot radius is a little much though and really this is only worthwhile at the heroic level and the effects should change at paragon and especially at the epic level where the SK's harm bystanders, allies and heroes alike and the Dragon kills hundreds to power a spell. As for the VA. The threat isn't just a matter of the power of a single spellcaster or a group of spellcasters. The threat is also from knowledge. The SK's suppress knowledge and the arcane spellcasters tends to collect it, the primal can sense it and the psions can figure it out and thous the SKs actively work to suppress and control them. Groups like the alliance and the builders are supposed to represent those who have an (at some levels) inkling of the true history of Athas and the SKs role in it. Of course that does not mean that the Veiled Alliance doesn't have it's skeletons, nor would it mean that the SKs do not exploit the Alliance and the Builders for their own purposes at times.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

qsoe

Dec 22, 2011 9:38:12

It will be long, but worth reading I hope:

I have recently inherited a Dark Sun party, as the original DM did not have enough free time.
I started thinking about the power structure of the VA, when it hit me: according to the new rules, there was no reason a Veiled Alliance, as the protector of the Preservers, would exist.

Defiling is different
In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses.
Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy?

Spellcasting is different
In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before.

Spellcasters are different
Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more.

Templars are different too
Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him.

Implications for the general population

There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars?

This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters?

They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes.

Implications for the PCs

Templars do not search for arcane casters, they search for potential threats. Threats for the sorcerer king, and especially for themselves as they are not linked to the SK any more.

There are no lynching of suspected Defilers, as there are too many potential targets, and no reason to really hate/fear them. Lynching actual users of the Arcane Defiling would make sense, however as you can decide not to use it with witnesses present, it hardly ever happens.

The Veiled Alliance does not help Preservers, as they do not need help.

How to deal with this
There are two options, change the rule, or change the fluff.

Change the rule
I do not like the Arcane Defiling power, it has no permanent effect, a sleeping Defiler looks the same as a sleeping Preserver. It is not frequent enough (you have at most 4 daily attacks, and more than half of them hits statistically) and not tempting enough (there is a quite high price especially in a larger party).
I would like to find a solution that is more like the one from DS 3.5. It marks you, costs you, but is actually enticing to be used. Of course Silent, Still, Extended etc spell does not really make sense, but you can have Quickened and Maximized.
Obviously normal citizens still can not recognize Defilers, but defiling is much more enticing and frequent, so they might know it, and druids can find the Taint.
Templars still do not care if you are a wizard or not, once you are noticed as being powerful, you either serve, or die.

Change the fluff
This is the part where I connect to the title, now the Veiled Alliance is not the keeper of Preservers, but the People's Liberation Front. Their main objective is to subvert the sorcerer-kings, and end slavery. Everyone can be member, arcane casters have no special status.
I would leave the gardening to the druids and shamans.

What do you think?

Raddu76

Dec 22, 2011 10:52:41

Defiling is different

In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses.
Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy?

So far, no one in my games has played a defiler, but all of my NPC's defile every time they cast a spell if they're a defiler. Also I use the defiler powers from my own Dark Heart Defiler's theme as well as the Threats of Athas article.

If I did have a defiler PC, they would defile with every spell (only affecting plantlife) and could use Arcane Defiling to re-roll.

Spellcasting is different
In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before.

This is a matter of rules interpretation. If you cast a spell that is Ranged or Area Effect you trigger an opportunity attack from adjacent enemies. I take this as waving your hands and muttering curses and being in concentration, thus suffering an opportunity attack.

Spellcasters are different
Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more.

IMO SKs sought out wizards to reduce their competition and hide knowledge. While PC classes may become as powerful as a SK, NPCs will not, unless they're powerful in magic and psionics. Its just a matter of how you look at it. with 4e PCs and NPCs are not on the same level as they were in 3e.

Templars are different too
Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him.

I completely ignore the idea that Warlock Templars are not connected to their SK. Other classes, yes, Warlocks with the SK Pact, no.

Implications for the general population

There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars?

This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters?

They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes.

1) Yes, all magic in the city-states is illegal. SK's might tolerate some elemental priests, but thats it.
2) There's a common view in the world that Defiler's (all wizards) are responsible for the state the world in and thus the cuase for the struggle to survive.
3)All SK Pact Warlocks get their magic from the SK, thus they do not defile in my game.

qsoe

Dec 23, 2011 8:57:34

In my opinion even a fictional fantasy world should make sense. A race that is depicted as "big and strong but not too bright" should not have +2 Int and +2 Cha as racial bonus. If the PCs save the son of a merchant, and they are punished instead of rewarded, there should be a reason for that.

Defiling
Chemical companies do not lay hazardous waste in your back yard because they are evil or hate your guts, they do it because it is profitable. If properly neutralizing it would be cheaper than dumping it, they had done it.

There might be some insane individuals who defile just for the fun, but they should be a tiny minority. Under the current rules defiling is not profitable most of the time, so why would anyone use it. They can choose not to do it without any consequences, and they even save food that way for their mounts.

Arcane magic
Dictators ban the free press, as it is a threat for them, but only the insane ones ban Elvis Presly.

To be worth banning something it should be identifiable, and threatening. Arcane magic was both, but is neither.
Funny you should mention psionics, it is a great example for both of my points. It was not mentioned, because it was not identifiable. Also even according to you it is as threatening as arcane, but still was not banned.

Prohibiting arcane magic, when it was more powerful than anything else made sense, not any more. Also do not forget that Rikus was no arcane caster, and he took down Kalak down more or less.
Banning arcane magic is like banning swords, but not spears.

Spellcasting
I do not think this is free to interpretation, you can cast spells while immobilized, silenced, underwater, or in a Purple Worms intestines. This must mean you do not need hand signals and be able to speak.

As a DM, you are free to change that, but this is not interpretation, rather a modification. And as a logical consequence, in your Athas, PCs can not cast spells in a Mekilots stomach, or grabbed.

Templars
Of course you can rule that their magic dies with their Sorcerer-king, but it would mean that Tithian is about as threatening as an average 12 year goblin girl with half a leg and a heart condition. If Urik have not invaded Tyr yet, the Nobles or the VA would have taken the power to themselves.

Ozmodious

Dec 23, 2011 13:24:43

This may sound dumb but this is how I explain spellcasting to my players when asked how do people know you are casting arcane magic and they bought it.
So a shamon is in town and wants to cast a primal spell levitate to get to a second story window: He castes the spell and primal energy ( we will say a cloud of dust raises him to the window.) Witnesses see the primal energy as primal.
A wzard attempts the same feat but uses arcane. He castes the spell and arcane energy( we will say a glowing yellow platform rises to the window). Witnesses see "Magic" and scream defiler.

I use the fluff and imagination to make the spells different from one another in a way that witnesses can tell. Arcane would seem so alien to the magics that are seen everyday that it strikes fear in all who witness it even if the effect is the same as a primal casters.

Raddu76

Dec 23, 2011 21:17:33

qsoe: Yeah, I have a world view from the 2e books so even in 4e my Athas works like that. If the rules of 4e dont match up I add/change/ignore them. So you're really trying to make the fiction match the 4e rules set very closely, then I think your originial ideas sound pretty good for changing the VA.

As to the Tyrian Templars, Tithian still had the army to help him out and the gladiators. A lot of what was interesting to me was the role the Veiled Alliance was being pushed to, that of coming out and helping Tyr as magical power. I was hoping that they would end up opening a state sponsored Preserver school for Templars and whoever, alas the metaplot never made it there back in the day.

Ozmodious
That works. One of the things I liked about the old DS and D&D in general was that all of the "power sources" even though we didnt call them that back int he day felt different. Arcane magic worked different than, psionics, which worked different than Divine(elemental) magic. SO there was never a question as to what spell was being cast.

I would say that Arcane casters make magic symbols in the air and say magic words and they all put their hand down to gather life energy from nearby plants (Preservers just dont kill them). Primal casters whisper favors of the primal spirits and may clutch a totem. Psionic characters may become still and introspective for a moment, or if you prefer a visual cue, they may have silver sparks emanate from their head or a golden halo of energy appear.

terminus_vortexa

Dec 23, 2011 22:50:07

I just kept my campaign in 3.5 and Pathfinder (who recently released a revised Psionics rulebook, btw) I use the Athas,org 3.5 Defiling rules, and the world just makes more sense. I acknowledge the simplicity of the 4e system, especially for people unwilling to have a whole bookshelf and printed binders of stuff, 4e is good for other settings, I guess, but is incapable of properly capturing the dynamic of Dark Sun, despite its massive retcons and such. The preserver/defiler line is a joke in 4e. And I really see no reason they had to completely change the nature of Elemental Clerics, or even Templars. Easier and more canonical with the novels to just have those classes use the Cleric rules, flavored for the character. Again, I guess 4e has its uses for other players, DMs, and settings, but does not truly capture the traditional feel of Dark Sun. A 3.5E dragon using Athas.org rules would destroy a 4e dragon, based on powers and descriptions alone. The 4e Advanced Beings just make weak characters a little more flavorful. I am hoping whenever 5E comes out, they go back to a system that does not restrict ones powers to Daily/At Will/Encounter. Sorry for the tangent, but what they did to DS in 4E is a real sore spot for me.

qsoe

Dec 24, 2011 6:56:45

4E made some interesting changes to DS, warlock templars is one of them. Every warlock makes a Pact with a powerful being, that is not a god. For the templars, it is the sorcerer-king. This is really flavorful, but also makes them extremly vulnerable (Tyrian templars). In my opinion sorcerer-king pact warlocks make more sense than clerics. Unfortunately it is bad news for Player Characters, but can be curcumvented by careful DMing, like keeping the SK alive, or make a new pact wiht Ul-Athra.

The new defiling rules make no sense for me either, but it can probably be mended.
I do not think the Daily/At-will/Encounter system is to blame, I really like it, made gameplay more fun and colorful for magic users and martial characters alike. I blame the decision to defile only with dailies.

Alter_Boy

Dec 29, 2011 20:37:40

In Robert J. Schwalb's novel Death Mark, one of the characters is a Templar (presumed Sorceror-King Warlock) who retains his powers, although many of his colleagues do not. I don't know if the author's assumption was that Kalak is still alive, or that the arcane power can live on within some individuals after the source has been removed (not unlike downloading a video before its original host pulls it down).

YMMV.

geck0990

Feb 06, 2012 22:56:04

Defiling is different
In previous editions, defiling was a life choice. In 2nd, it was a separate cast, in 3.5, you were tainted by it. Also you used defiling every day, all day, no matter if you casted Wish or Ghost Sound. Now you only use it if you miss with a daily, and even than it has a cost not everyone is willing to pay. You are Preserver mostly, and Defiler by every full moon, in leap years, in the darkest dungeons, without any witnesses.
Neither the Swordmage nor the Bard has ever used Arcane Defiling, both has dailies with cool Effect and negligible Hit lines. Also what kind of a Leader or Defender damages his party more than the enemy?

Honestly I believe having the choice to defile on a spell-by-spell basis makes it far more interesting from a player standpoint. It might not have happened to your players, but there have been plenty of moments in my two-year campaign where the party arcanists (who have a hatred of defiling) have rolled terribly at a critical points in the story, and it's quite enjoyable as a DM to smirk at them and point out "There's another option you know...". The knowledge that there is a way to get that little power boost you need can be quite tempting to both the characters and the players, with wonderful story results either way.

Spellcasting is different

In 4E, you do not have to wave your hands and mutter curses to cast a spell, if you have 2 cupcakes in your mouth and a Kirre bites both your hands off, you are just as good a wizard or sorcerer as before.

Fair point, that's one of my small complaints about 4th.

Spellcasters are different

Earlier wizards were much stronger on high levels than other classes, only they were able to challenge the power of sorcerer-kings. So it made a lot of sense to pursue them whenever found, but not any more.

There is still just as much reason to hunt down and imprison/execute any suspected arcanists, even if they don't threaten the sorcerer-kings directly. Crops. Defiling does render the land sterile, which means even a handful of arcanists could ravage the crops sustaining a city, and if left unchecked could sterilize enough of the fields that city could starve. From a completely pragmatic (even justified) viewpoint it would make perfect sense to keep arcanists under a watchful eye and iron grip, because even if they claim to be preservers they still have the capability to defile.

Templars are different too

Earlier they were not arcane casters, their ability to use spells depended on their sorcerer-king. I think I like the concept shift, but it changes the social dynamics entirely. Templars are no longer at the mercy of their sovereigns, they can betray, even replace him.

Depends on how you choose to interpret it. Barring sorcerers, spellcasters improve their power largely through study of magical lore or learning forgotten secrets. Most (perhaps all) of this knowledge would be jealously guarded by the kings to be handed out as rewards to templars that please them. True, should the king fall templars will not lose the power they already have, but they also lose access to the vast amounts of knowledge and power their king held. They lose the carrot on the stick, so to speak.

Implications for the general population

There is no way a potter or cook can tell an arcane caster from a druid or shaman. A lightning is a lightning. Should they report all of them to the templars?

This cook or potter has most likely never felt the pain of Arcane Defiling before, a farmer never saw his crops rotted away by it, why would they hate casters?

They see templars use arcane magic every day, if they ever recognised some else do that, they would just assume “undercover templar” and mind their own businnes.

1. Completely correct, the general populace will have no way of knowing if any given spell is primal, psionic, or arcane. And to me it makes sense that they absolutely report all magical phenomena because the general populace would greatly fear any magic, see next point.

2. That defiling ended the green age is fairly common knowledge. If you, living in the harsh world of Athas, had heard these wonderful tales of how the world was once lush and cool, with gods in the heavens and water for all, and it all ended because a few blasted wizards wanted to squeeze a a little more power into their spells, wouldn't you grow to resent and hate them? That it can still be observed and felt to this day would only stoke the flames because you have a target to blame.

3. I disagree. You see police carry guns every day, yet if you hear gunfire in your neighborhood are you going to assume "undercover cop" and not report it?

Implications for the PCs

Templars do not search for arcane casters, they search for potential threats. Threats for the sorcerer king, and especially for themselves as they are not linked to the SK any more.

There are no lynching of suspected Defilers, as there are too many potential targets, and no reason to really hate/fear them. Lynching actual users of the Arcane Defiling would make sense, however as you can decide not to use it with witnesses present, it hardly ever happens.

The Veiled Alliance does not help Preservers, as they do not need help.

As above, there is still just as much reason to fear and hate all arcanists, even those who have not defiled in front of you, simply because they have the capability. In that regard the VA would change little, they might actually keep a closer eye on their own to ensure they never fall to temptation.

How to deal with this

There are two options, change the rule, or change the fluff.

Change the rule
I do not like the Arcane Defiling power, it has no permanent effect, a sleeping Defiler looks the same as a sleeping Preserver. It is not frequent enough (you have at most 4 daily attacks, and more than half of them hits statistically) and not tempting enough (there is a quite high price especially in a larger party).
I would like to find a solution that is more like the one from DS 3.5. It marks you, costs you, but is actually enticing to be used. Of course Silent, Still, Extended etc spell does not really make sense, but you can have Quickened and Maximized.
Obviously normal citizens still can not recognize Defilers, but defiling is much more enticing and frequent, so they might know it, and druids can find the Taint.
Templars still do not care if you are a wizard or not, once you are noticed as being powerful, you either serve, or die.

I too think the power should be a little broader, I would like to see it extend to encounter powers and perhaps give a bonus to the damage roll.

Change the fluff

This is the part where I connect to the title, now the Veiled Alliance is not the keeper of Preservers, but the People's Liberation Front. Their main objective is to subvert the sorcerer-kings, and end slavery. Everyone can be member, arcane casters have no special status.
I would leave the gardening to the druids and shamans.

What do you think?

Funny you should mention them as the People's Liberation Front, as that's exactly how I interpret them in my home game, to the point of making them slightly darker and less noble. My players affectionately (and sometimes not-so-affectionately) refer to them as "those damned elven terrorists" after they violently disrupted elections in Balic and attempted to assassinate a player who's a Praetor.

Ultimately the changes give the DM more freedom to take the game in the direction they want. I thought the VA were much more interesting for my game by taking them down a darker path, but even with the changes to defiling it makes a good deal of sense to leave them as they are. There is still a good deal of justification to shape them however you think will suit your game best.

#10

Kurmudgeon

Feb 09, 2012 15:33:36

On the whole, I think there is a lot of dissatisfaction with how deflining works. Defiling destroyed the worlds after all, it should be prominant and powerful, game balance be damned. It should destroy plant life, hurt your allies and innocent bystanders, and it should do so because it is inherently a selfish act. It should also be so tempting that it takes a great deal of restraint not to do so. Though, if you defile everytime you cast a spell and it hurts your allies they will eventually get sick of it and defile you right back. That's where the balance comes in

#11

dreamernaut

Feb 10, 2012 3:35:05

There's only two issues I have with Arcane defiling really. You defile, you get a second attack or damage role by sacrificing a little HP. I can deal with that I suppose. The every ally in a 100' foot radius is a little much though and really this is only worthwhile at the heroic level and the effects should change at paragon and especially at the epic level where the SK's harm bystanders, allies and heroes alike and the Dragon kills hundreds to power a spell.

As for the VA. The threat isn't just a matter of the power of a single spellcaster or a group of spellcasters. The threat is also from knowledge. The SK's suppress knowledge and the arcane spellcasters tends to collect it, the primal can sense it and the psions can figure it out and thous the SKs actively work to suppress and control them. Groups like the alliance and the builders are supposed to represent those who have an (at some levels) inkling of the true history of Athas and the SKs role in it. Of course that does not mean that the Veiled Alliance doesn't have it's skeletons, nor would it mean that the SKs do not exploit the Alliance and the Builders for their own purposes at times.